Digiweb standing still on speed?

mike65

With the recent burst of upgrade announcements by eircom and BT is there any news about wireless providers uping thier game? (yes I'm a digiweb customer!).

Mike.

weeder

by recent you mean months ago?
edit: just seen other thread

watty

I think 10Mbps Metro upgrade was made available ages before eircom talked about upgrade past 3Mbps for DSL.

From 4th October 2007

Many Wicklow Businesses can now also experience the benefits the Metro service brings, with packages from 2Mb up to 10Mb.

http://media.digiweb.ie/category/pr/


On 17th Sept 2007

10Mb Broadband
Business Broadband Updates

As part of revising our Business Broadband services, we’ve responded to feedback from you, the customer, with some reshuffling of packages. Metro Broadband is now available in 5 new flavors, ranging from 2Mb to 10Mb, all of which are great value for Irish Businesses. For a full comparison of Business Metro services, Click Here

If you would like to upgrade your current Metro package to any of the new services, please contact the Business team on 1800 94 1000 or leave a callback request.

from http://media.digiweb.ie/newsletters/2007/09/17/sept-newsletter-summer-in-arklow-new-broadband-speeds-free-marketing-advice/#more-82

Also

Dedicated Business Service

- 1:1 Business Connectivity- - Up to 1000Mbps Fibre

There are also I think dedicated Buisness Wireless to replace leased line etc at about 20Mbps with no contention and no cap. But that obviously is more expensive than home broadband.

At higher speeds eircom may start enforcing caps on heavy users as the backhaul is a fixed resource.

Digiweb also has DSL and a Mobile system markedly better than the Mobile Phone Companies 3G/HSDPA. It's only in parts of Dublin today, but with the success of that it will be going nationwide soon.

pjproby

Watty
The question is whether Digiweb is likely to match the speed increases currently being spoken about by Eircom, or being delivered by Smart or BT.
I know Digiweb have faster products but they are prohibitively expensive.
Is the metro system capable of delivering faster speeds at a reasonable cost?

Sponge Bob

good question , especially in May or June when the upgrades kick in.

equally good question for IBB of course!

mike65

Indeed its 2mb for 1mb I'm thinking about - normal usage stuff - not business class.

Mike.

Sponge Bob

Digiweb are going to find the competition hotting up in the 1mbit space this year after the wholesale price cut. Now if they upped their entry level from 1mbit to 2mbit they could stand out a bit from the crowd.

watty

Only eircom makes any money out of DSL. Upto 3Mbps on DSL there is no difference in exhange to User cost, it's the backhaul only that costs eircom more.

For ALL wireless sytems the last link of the chain does cost more directly according to the speed as well as the backhaul cost.

On Wireless there is no line rental overhead.

If the wholesale DSL price is cut Digiweb DSL customers will benefit as much as anyone elses DSL customers. The bulk of wireless serves those whose lines fail on enabled exchanges (up to 40%) or those who have no line (31%) or who are not on DSL enabled exchange (10% according to eircom).

Many 512k to 2Mbps wireless products cost less than the eircom line rental, so they are hardly going to upgrade speed for free. You'll have to pay a different price for different packages.

Many DSL resellers make little or no profit. Some major Wireless operations have never really been profitable (not Digiweb , but YOU know who you are. Little money is made on LLU DSL, the major LLU player still needs to dramatically increase price to be profitable in a normal sense. They have lost a lot in the past.

Perlico lost 17m last year.

The fact is that given the high cost of dual channel ISDN and lack of any true flat rate dialup there is a substantial market for a cheap product even at 200Kbps.

While some people want more speed, many "ordinary" people only want fixed low cost and enough speed for daily email and odd web page look up / pay road tax etc..

I know lots of "occasional" users who regard DSL as too expensive. So four markets:

1. Casual user ( 200Kbps, needs cheap & fixed price)
2. Regular user (cap is not an issue, 1 to 3Mbps, wants more speed at same price)
3. Mad Downloader (Cap size is an issue)
4. Business Use (Leased Line replacement, self hosting, > 20 users etc)

Most of the population is (1) or (2).
Boards posters tend to be (2) or (3).
(4) is very badly served in Ireland. The basic Wireless or home Cable/ DSL packages are useless for major Business operations such as ebay, Intel, Dell, Sage, Microsoft, large schools or Colleges.


The strange fact is that there are about 10 times as many ISPs in Ireland as makes any commercial sense, and yet while we have generally the highest prices at lowest speeds, only about 20% of ISPs here are actually profitable.

Obviously eircom's Wholesale shouldn't be among the loss making operators.

pjproby

Watty,
i remember years ago asking a relative of mine, who works in eircom, when would they give us broadband and his reply was along the lines "do ye really need it".
Having read yours I am feeling guilty for using it and costing all those people who provide it all those losses they are incurring.
Was perlico sold recently?

Wcool

Let's say that in somewhere in the future (5? 10? or even more years), people everywhere in Ireland can avail of 20Mbps. Fibre or so.

Is there any room in wireless technology to go faster than 10Mb?

Blaster99

If we were to believe watty, there's no future in wireless other than picking up customers who can't get ADSL. Not exactly a business with a lot of prospect and a little surprising considering the Metro push by Digiweb, which by and large targets areas with many alternatives. I guess the wireless providers will have to fight for the 1Mbps users with lower margins, which will be difficult because I'm sure the equipment and installation overhead is quite significant. 1Mbps users are of course also a dying breed with the internet moving towards content that requires high-bandwidth. It looks like we need to look at UPC and the LLU providers for proper competition and innovation. Nothing new there as they are the providers who have been increasing speeds over the last couple of years.

mike65

Hmm UPC were through my letterbox again this week this thier 3 mb/phone/tv bundle.

Mike.

watty

Blaster99 wrote: »

If we were to believe watty, there's no future in wireless other than picking up customers who can't get ADSL.

Not what I'm saying at all.

But many people can't get DSL. They may be on Wireless systems that never can do more than 2Mbps. Some systems have poor latency. The 90% DSL coverage is a lie. Only 69% have lines. Only 90% of those are enabled and in some areas up to 40% fail... to me that means that real DSL coverage is 35% to 60% of households. (The real figures are only known to eircom).

It's physics that the higher they enable the speed of the exchange the more lines fail and have to be set back to the lower speed. A significant proportion of DSL won't do more than 4Mbps.

The Digiweb Metro system though does have speeds and latency comparable with the best DSL & Cable. 10Mbps since September 2007. It's a viable high performance alternative even if you can get DSL.

But there is a huge variation in wireless technologies from systems with up to 2000ms ping (twice as bad as Satellite) and down to dialup speeds, to Business systems that can deliver 20Mbps at 30km. xDSL speed drops with exchange distance badly. Only people within 8km will ever get better than 8Mbps. Some wireless systems are limited only by Comreg Licence circle.

The operators that can't make money reselling eircom or can't do Wireless with 10Mbps performance are not going to last out. The DSL speed increases are no threat to Nationwide High Performance Wireless operator, nor to the small rural community operation where DSL is never going to reach.

watty

Wcool wrote: »

Let's say that in somewhere in the future (5? 10? or even more years), people everywhere in Ireland can avail of 20Mbps. Fibre or so.

Is there any room in wireless technology to go faster than 10Mb?

Yes.
You can get 1Gbps wireless. (not for home users today).

Today 10Mbps Home package and 20Mbs to 1000Mbps business packages.

If you pay for two home packages it's possible to aggregate with a Linux Gateway to a total of 20Mbps to serve say 40 PCs in a School or business. There is little need for a single user to have more than 2Mbps. IPTV does of course need 4Mbps peak standard Definition and 20Mbps peak HDTV, to give equivalent to Sky BBC quality. But IPTV is going to be on a separate QOS (Quality of Service) managed port that has priority over your download, so on a 8Mps connection your speed will vary dropping to less than 4Mbps when TV peaks at 4Mbps. Also the IPTV part would be 1:1 contention and the "ordinary" connection at usual 10:1 to 48:1 contention depending on how much you pay.

In the UK higher advertised speeds have resulted in higher contention such that the majority of people only see 1/3rd to 1/2 of their advertised "up to" speed. Ofcom is looking into it

watty

Unless there is some kind of revolution where people selling home fibre modems take over you are NEVER EVER* going to see universal fibre or anything like more than 15% of people on 20Mbps + xDSL.

(* well NEVER EVER is maybe too long a time scale, what does Sponge Bob think of Cold Fronts on the hot place and porcine Aviators in relation to universal 20Mbps via wires or fibre?).

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

what does Sponge Bob think of Cold Fronts on the hot place and porcine Aviators in relation to universal 20Mbps via wires or fibre?).

Awww phew ! Eamonn Ryan thinks he is a genius because he 'wants' to give a small selection of the population universal 1mbit by 2013 at the latest . Thats official Ireland .

At least Shane Ross has some vision , Universal 5mbit by 2009 . Go Shane Go !

Universal 20mbits is about 10 years away at least , post 3G LTE implementation and the widespread availability of flash ofdm gear as a 'by product' and a sharp and hopefully painful insertion of vision into the rear of our government and civil service .

For xDSL to do 100% 20mbit in the areas ALREADY 'covered' by xDSL would require 8-10 times more 'exchanges' in those areas alone . No chance of that .

Blaster99

watty wrote: »

The Digiweb Metro system though does have speeds and latency comparable with the best DSL & Cable. 10Mbps since September 2007. It's a viable high performance alternative even if you can get DSL.

Is it? I'm sure if I pay enough to own the sector or a peer-to-peer link it's viable but I don't see any signs in the home market of this being viable. But I guess we'll have to wait and see as Digiweb is clearly a follower, not a leader, and will have to match whatever eircom comes up with. This has always been the trend with wireless providers, which would lead one to make the not entirely far fetched conclusion that it's expensive or difficult for WISPs to increase speeds.

Peanut

watty wrote: »

...
There is little need for a single user to have more than 2Mbps.
...

Maybe at the moment, but you can't rely on that being the case for very long, sites like YouTube would not have been possible in the dial-up era, you can guess that there will be more appetite for higher-bandwidth applications (not necessarily provisioned over a separate IPTV channel) in the not so distant future.

watty

IPTV to work even on 100Mbps needs QOS implemented. So it must be on a separate VLAN at customer end. However it will dynamically release bandwidth to the user. 5Mbps LLU needed for Standard TV + downloads/browsing and 20Mbps+ needed for HDTV + browsing / Downloads. It can't be done on Bitstream as the IPTV playout system has to be really be at the exchange and eircom provides no mechanism for resellers to implement QOS. You can't even reliably do Fax over Bitstream.

Add an extra 4Mbps Standard TV and 18Mbps HDTV per extra setbox on Multiroom.

watty

Blaster99 wrote: »

Is it? I'm sure if I pay enough to own the sector or a peer-to-peer link it's viable but I don't see any signs in the home market of this being viable. But I guess we'll have to wait and see as Digiweb is clearly a follower, not a leader, and will have to match whatever eircom comes up with. This has always been the trend with wireless providers, which would lead one to make the not entirely far fetched conclusion that it's expensive or difficult for WISPs to increase speeds.

How is Digiweb a follower when it has fibre, High speed Wireless (Metro) at faster speeds than eircom 3 months before eircom announces it, the fastest and most advanced Mobile Wireless product in Ireland and the fastest professional 2 way satellite products?

As well as the DSL and Wireless that everyone else sells? If the LLU was not so skewed in favour of eircom profit you would see a lot of that from Digiweb too.

Admittedly today eircom has more infrastructure and more customers, but their cut of the market has shrunk to 46% even though they have grown Broadband to add their 500,000 customer. eircom's Bitstream is still behind all the LLU offerings and top Cable and Metro offerings. eircom's national wireless is nearly invisible and 1/5th to 1/10th the speed of Digiweb. How is that Digiweb following eircom? People change from eircom leased line to Digiweb dedicated wireless because it is cheaper and faster.

It's absolutely true that all the other WISPs apart from Digiweb are basically limited to around the 200kps to 2Mbps depending on system.

Blaster99

Thank you for fudging the discussion yet again. I'm referring to this fine table: http://www.digiweb.ie/broadband_metro_index.asp?i=80&i2=81&i6=90&zzz=hm. It is of some relevance to the users of Boards. That page has looked the same for the last couple of years and if it is to change, then that has to do with eircom forcing Digiweb to do so.

There are lots of high-speed leased line type of alternatives for the corporate market, but that's not of relevance to this discussion.

misslt

Blaster99 wrote: »

That page has looked the same for the last couple of years and if it is to change, then that has to do with eircom forcing Digiweb to do so.
.

The last couple of years?

The 2mb and 5mb package were introduced late 2007....:rolleyes:

Digiweb still offer a phone and BB package for cheaper than eircoms line rental alone...

mike65

What some of us reckon should be the market is 2 mb for 25 a month and 3 mb for 30. and NO caps! But maybe thats asking too much of diginets finances.

Mike.

watty

Metro came to Limerick in Nov/Dec 2005. Then there was only 1M and 3M packages.

There has been various versions of that page since then.
http://www.digiweb.ie/broadband_metro_index.asp?i=80&i2=81&i6=90&zzz=hm

The problem is eircom's strangle hold on infrastructure. People either use it and make no money or like Digiweb invest in their own Infrastructure. In the long term those that have invested will be able to reduce prices and will stay in business. Those only renting and reselling eircom have their prices set by eircom and are not likely to stay in business.

lucernarian

So, will Digiweb get any more speed upgrades out there or will they hang tight??

They could do with improving their contention ratio on their Mt. Oriel mast. Neighbours get a steady 105 kBps on their eircom broadband while for the apparent same speed, I must wait till the small hours to see a three digit download speed. 25 kBps during the day and very unstable upload speeds aren't much good.

Having to upload photos to email is a pain in the ass when you need to use your neighbour's computer.

Blaster99

misslt wrote: »

The last couple of years?

The 2mb and 5mb package were introduced late 2007....:rolleyes:

Digiweb still offer a phone and BB package for cheaper than eircoms line rental alone...

I was referring to the price (obviously), not minor changes in the packages offered.

misslt

Blaster99 wrote: »

I was referring to the price (obviously), not minor changes in the packages offered.

Um, no, new packages - new prices..

The prices may not have changed drastically, but thats coz they don't really need to, they still offer a good deal.

damien

Almost two full pages of Watty (Digiweb employee and apologist of the year, nay, decade) writing FUD and just generally talking crap. Fair enough that some of Boards.ie owners work for Digiweb, that Boards.ie is hosted by them, that some of the supermods are employed by Digiweb and some of the moderators too but christ almighty are Digiweb employees allowed so much free reign when it comes to pimping their services while also trying to spin a genuine request away?

Given Watty's grandstanding it appears Digiweb ain't going to do speed bumps. Suffer on peasants.

mike65

heh! I was thinking that but I'm glad you said it.

Mike.

Praetorian

Damien has said it all really. Do they pay you by the post Watty?

MrVostro

mike65 wrote: »

heh! I was thinking that but I'm glad you said it.

Mike.

Ditto

pjproby

this is getting personal -everybody back off.
watty is an extremely helpful person to many people on these boards.

Bros123

pjproby wrote: »

this is getting personal -everybody back off.
watty is an extremely to many people on these boards.

I'd hate to be an extremely.It's not nice being an extremely when you won't answer an outright question when you work for the company and other people get annoyed by it.

smellslikeshoes

Bros123 wrote: »

I'd hate to be an extremely.It's not nice being an extremely when you won't answer an outright question when you work for the company and other people get annoyed by it.

It's pretty understandable though because any information that was might be considered commercially sensitive material and could get him in trouble.

damien.m wrote: »

Almost two full pages of Watty (Digiweb employee and apologist of the year, nay, decade) writing FUD and just generally talking crap. Fair enough that some of Boards.ie owners work for Digiweb, that Boards.ie is hosted by them, that some of the supermods are employed by Digiweb and some of the moderators too but christ almighty are Digiweb employees allowed so much free reign when it comes to pimping their services while also trying to spin a genuine request away?

Given Watty's grandstanding it appears Digiweb ain't going to do speed bumps. Suffer on peasants.

Thats not fair at all, I'm a regular user of the broadband section and Watty has been the single greatest source of useful information here. It's not a secret who he works for, and any recommendations or defending of said company is entirely fair and unbiased in my opinion. I'm sorry Damien but seems like you are just looking for something to complain about since IrelandOffline isn't active anymore.

Bros123

I was only having a laugh at the previous posters mistake and I'm not with Digiweb so it's of no consequence to me one way or the other.

pjproby

i just edited the post in question.

Bros123

pjproby wrote: »

i just edited the post in question.

Don't worry,it's still on my quote;):D

bishop brennan

So after all that the bottom line is no speed increases?

Moriarty

The bottom line is.. the same as it was before this thread was started. Neither a positive or negative.

watty

bishop brennan wrote: »

So after all that the bottom line is no speed increases?

Digiweb did speed increases several months BEFORE eircom...

Bros123

watty wrote: »

Digiweb did speed increases several months BEFORE eircom...

I think the OP's question was with Eircoms RECENT announcement of speed increases would wireless providers(of which Digiweb is a major player)be uping their game.I really don't thinking the OP was interested in several months ago but what options are available to him in the near future.

damien

I just got 8 paragraph email rebuke by the Digiweb CEO because of my "personal attack" on Watty on this thread and calling out his FUD and got told how I am meant to comment on Digiweb in future. Mike65, Blaster99, I assume you too got the same level of personal service? Wonderful attitude from Digiweb about this. You'll get it back in spades.

DMC

damien.m, what you said about watty was low. I've known him closely for many years, and that just stinks. A more technically informed poster you will not find elsewhere on boards.ie. You've come on here, with a "withering" attack on watty, which I find completely inane.

So you don't like employees of ISP's to proactively talk to their customers on open forums?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Well done, damien.m.

Asok

Damien if have had such a problem with watty's posts you should have reported them and a mod would have acted on them. Instead you decided to take matters into your own hands. I don't really like how you are insinuating that Digiweb have any editorial censorship over what goes on this or any other forum on boards.ie because that is simply not true however if you believe it to be the case then that's your prerogative.

damien

I've already gone through the whole steps with Watty and his employer before and reporting his posts. If I recall it was me who created a fuss with the mods to get Watty to disclose who his employer was when he was recommending Digiweb to people ahead of other broadband services without disclosing that he was working for Digiweb. And he too major umbrage with it too, if I recall.

As for Digiweb having editorial control. I am genuinely sorry if my comments suggested that and I apologise to Regi and yourself and anyone else who I offended with the way that was construed. I don't believe it, never have and am quite happy how Boards.ie have for years maintained their independence and managed it with style.

I do however believe that Watty is given free reign here and thus questioned was it because of the mods not being willing to step on toes because of the various Digiweb affiliations. I am happy to bring that up on the feedback forum too but giving my feedback here too is legitimate. It doesn't matter what he has given to this site over the years if a blind eye is cast in these instances.

Perhaps there should be a dedicated Digiweb forum since there is such high-level interaction by Watty when it comes to Digiweb?

mike65

damien.m wrote: »

I just got 8 paragraph email rebuke by the Digiweb CEO because of my "personal attack" on Watty on this thread and calling out his FUD and got told how I am meant to comment on Digiweb in future. Mike65, Blaster99, I assume you too got the same level of personal service? Wonderful attitude from Digiweb about this. You'll get it back in spades.

Sadly no, I guess your profile via-a-vis IOFFL marked you out. The "problem" with Wattys input to this thread is straightforward enough, I asked essentially about better value for money which I clarrified in my second post but Wattys response was not an answer to the question I posed and it all ran out of control from that point on! Th average boards user isn't interested in anything much beyond 2 or 3 MB thats the bulk market so pimping 10mb business packages is of no help at all.

Mike.

Praetorian

Perhaps Digiweb should do the decent thing and setup their own forums on their own site like Smart did (http://support.smarttelecom.ie/forums/). Editorial censorship no but there is a clear conflict of interest going on.

watty

Damian, I took no umbrage and modified my sig fairly quickly. I just didn't think my posts very partisan, say compared with NBS... Hey, with your scheme Damian, Digiweb gets 12,460 free adverts.

The fact is Mike65 that more speed costs more. That's why the 10Mbps is under business listing.

I realise now that essentially the interest was in More Speed for the same money, i.e. Package upgrades. A misunderstanding. For technical as well as marketing reasons, companies using DIFFERENT technology are unlikely to upgrade speeds or packages at the same time. There could be change of pricing or what speeds people get in current packages tomorrow and I wouldn't know in advance. I'm doing TECHNICAL things, not commercial. So I can explain the physical & technical issues of different speeds and lose sight of the fact that most people want more at the same package, not explainations as to why it ought to cost more.

Since for what eircom charges (for much cheaper to run DSL) they ought to be offering 20Mbps at the 3Mbps price, of course as you get further from exchange you can only get 10, 5, 3, 2, 1 and 512K as the physical limitation of the copper is much more a contraint with DSL. It would only really cost more in Backhaul. Because of eircom charges, eircom may get 30% of Smart's retail LLU price in clear profit and Smart very little, possibly a small loss after overheads. Access & Regulation of the infrastructure the Government sold off is a real problem.

For UPC/NTL cable and all Wireless systems, 2x speed on user = 2x cost or more. BEFORE backhaul costs.

I've much more often said things Digiweb doesn't like than Boards Mods, other than Damion. I've been posting on boards for nearly SIX years on CURRENT profile and working for Digiweb less than 2 years.

I don't work in support, installs or sales. My work is often finding new ways to get more people Broadband and better services. I try to offer advice equally no matter if the user is with UPC, IBB, 3G, eircom or BT etc. The only difference about post relating to Digiweb is that I know a little more about the inside than I did when I was on the outside. That means there as some things I might know I can't say like where and when a new Basestation for Metro or Digiweb Mobile will be. Though mostly I'd not know unless I asked someone.

I knew before I joined Digiweb that while Metro uses a Wireless link, it is not Wireless in sense of any other Wireless product. (I got it installed about 6mths before I was working for Digiweb). Digiweb also has "traditional" fixed wireless.

My sig shows how I work for.

I try to be impartial.

My Boss does not prime me with what to say.

My posts on Ioffl and Boards are not to further a Digiweb agenda but help people with their BB and get BB (often users have no options, or no choice of supplier or else have everyone sadly).

I'm sure my Boss would rather I didn't tell people how to use a Router with 3G USB or NTL cable. It doesn't help Digiweb.

If people think I'm just out solely to promote Digiweb or create FUD, I can simply leave and not bother helping anyone. I'm not paid to do this. But I want to help get people connected, with who ever.

Digiweb will no doubt keep growing and reach #2 behind eircom not so far in the future if no Digiweb people post anything. There are better uses of time & energy if it was just about promoting Digiweb.

Even if I think a particular technology is "oversold" I don't make personal attacks.
Example
Ripwave is a good value dialup replacement.
3G/HSDPA is Europe wide Mobile Internet solution. But never intended to be a fixed broadband replacement.
Home Broadband was never intended for self hosting...

I could post here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=274366

Let's not have personal fights but help each other be connected.

35notout

Well said Watty!

damien

Watty, you are by far the most helpful person on the broadband forum I have encountered since it's inception years and years ago and you are of great help in other forums too. Many people should being buying you flowers or gifts or whatever for the help you've given them. However, this whole "I can leave if you want me to" while playing to the gallery is not at all becoming. As was that poll, again playing to the gallery, that you created on this forum asking how people consider you. More than a little egotistical too.

The fact is the way you created so much noise over a genuine but unanswerable question from Mike65 is indictative of a general behaviour from you when anyone questions Digiweb or is seen to question them. Mike did not ask for a lecture on why eircom can offer speed upgrades or the economics of various broadband infrastructures but he got it.

Also, your sig links to Digiweb. It doesn't state you are a Digiweb employee. It is not obvious except for those in the know. How about a proper, albeit small disclaimer?

Lastly, I also don't for a second believe that you suddenly realised after 3 pages what Mike65 was asking but I don't think we can resolve that though apart from agreeing to disagree. That's my final word.

chalkitdown

Although this thread started out to be about possible speed increases from Digiweb and has descended into something else I would like to point out that ANY speed increase of its home offerings would be entirely useless given their absurdly low caps.