First roads to be declared motorways without a motorway order

mysterious

murphaph wrote: »

Anything's possible .....

Not in ireland..:D With the bunch that's running the country.

icdg

Zoney wrote: »

mysterious:

The fact is that the original Nenagh bypass was designed in a different era as far as attitudes and funding towards road construction in Ireland are concerned. Anyone who bemoans the fact of it not having been DC from the start is simply ignoring how reality was even just 10 years ago, nevermind when the road plan for the 1980s was published (1979) which included most of the bypasses we built late 80s/early 90s (or even later).

Nevermind that the attitude ignores the quite reasonable fact of simply consider traffic volume, present and future, at the part of the N7, which are low.

The only reason for DC/motorway is the strategic concern of complete interurban motorways, which is a relatively recent ambition.

Er, even in 1979, well before the motorway plans of the late 1990s and with the National Road system only two years old at that stage, a motorway was beginning construction - the Naas bypass which became the M7 on opening in 1983 and the first motorway in this country.

We have had motorways in this country for nearly 25 years now. Even fifteen years ago (1993) we had the microcosmic M1, M7, and M50, with the M4 and M9 just about to open. The strategic inter-urbans were not even being comtemplated at this stage. Even if NDP and Celtic Tiger had never happened, at the very least the M7 would have ran from Naas-Portlaoise as it does at present.

ardmacha

Motorways were planned Border-Dublin, Naas Portlaoise, and Lucan-Kinnegad. The extension to Galway, Limerick, Cork were added later, as was the likes of the M3.

spacetweek

mysterious wrote: »

Well i was talking to a guy who was working on this road. They were planning a motorway from Limerick to Nenagh already when the bypass was under construction. The reason it was not DC here, cus the Tipperary council built the first two bridges to narrow, and coffey then got the contract to build after. one of the other bridges is in fact wide enough for 4 lanes. It was very stupid to build a a single lane road that lenght with flyovers.

I hate to burst your bubble, but they were many bypasses built around this time and before that were built to motorway standard

1.Arklow bypass
2.Athlone bypass
3.Mullingar bypass all built before the Nenagh bypass.

The low traffic flows is partly because of the missing interchange. Local traffic cannot access the road. even still they should of left space for future proof.

That's only 3 bypasses - completed over a 10-year period. How much DC was built in Ireland in the entire 1980's - probably 50km? Through the 2003-2013 period around 1020 km of dual or motorway will have been completed (Yes I added it up).

What probably happened is just that the councils were told by government that there was a very small pie to grab a piece from and they would have to justify their schemes. Nenagh must have lost out. At the time, there was still no firm plan to ever complete the motorway as far as Limerick. The junction omission, while seemingly a mistake now, was probably quite a reasonable thing to do at the time.

Dac51

ardmacha wrote: »

Motorways were planned Border-Dublin, Naas Portlaoise, and Lucan-Kinnegad. The extension to Galway, Limerick, Cork were added later, as was the likes of the M3.

...... and Waterford (M9). Why do people keep forgetting this??:(

icdg

Dac51 wrote: »

...... and Waterford (M9). Why do people keep forgetting this??:(

Oddly the Kilcullen Bypass, the original M9, was an early 1990s project (opened 1994, a few months after the Newbridge bypass). I can't help but think that even then they must have been thinking about motorway towards Waterford given the building of this motorway.

The ostensible reason, of course, why the (original) M9 is motorway is that its only junction is with the M7, meaning that there is no escape for non-motorway traffic. But it is of full motorway standard...

mysterious

icdg wrote: »

Oddly the Kilcullen Bypass, the original M9, was an early 1990s project (opened 1994, a few months after the Newbridge bypass). I can't help but think that even then they must have been thinking about motorway towards Waterford given the building of this motorway.

The ostensible reason, of course, why the (original) M9 is motorway is that its only junction is with the M7, meaning that there is no escape for non-motorway traffic. But it is of full motorway standard...

Before the 1999 inter urban proposal, I don't think there ever was a motorway planned for Waterford. The only upgrades would of been be S2 like the timolin and moone bypasses. The kilcullen bypass was built only as motorway because it led to motorway or ended at a motorway so it had to be called M9.

Great that we had an M9 on the map back 15years ago:D

mackerski

The Kilcullen bypass made a lot of sense even in isolation. It removed all traffic for N9 destinations from Naas, whereas the Naas bypass had only removed traffic towards Cork and Limerick (granted this was the bulk of it).

Chris_533976

So far there doesnt seem to be a holy war about this reclassification? I havent heard the environmentalists going nuts about it. Good news

Chris_533976

Chris_533976 wrote: »

So far there doesnt seem to be a holy war about this reclassification? I havent heard the environmentalists going nuts about it. Good news

I think that they know that they would get no support from the general motoring public!

Chris_533976

Yeah, I was worried that there would be hell from farmers and the drivers of motorway banned vehicles. Also from learners in the whole way that it happened last year when they tried to change the learners law at short notice.

I've heard very little talk AGAINST this actually, which I'm amazed about given Ireland ability to complain about things

E92

Of course now that they are bumping up the testing capacity means that there will be far fewer Learners around the place soon too. So this means soon enough the reclassification will affect a far smaller number of people in a few months time then it does presently.

When does the public consultation process end? I *believe* it's the end of this month, but I'm not sure really.

Chris_533976

Please click on the following Links for Explanatory Leaflet on each scheme

Observations and Comments should be forwarded to the following mailbox

"xxxxx@Transport.ie" no later than 4pm Friday 28th March 2008

Removed the email address to prevent them getting spam.

From transport.ie anyway, dont know what all that means but I dont think anything will happen until after that date.

Niall1234

E92, give another year and the views of learner drivers regarding motorway reclassification should not be taken into account.

A learners permit is what it is. A permit to allow you to learn to drive. I'm amazed that even now they would complain considering the fact that there are always alternative routes for Learners to use.

One thing I forgot to add is that the greens are against sprawling developments around all major towns, the motorways order will prevent such developments from being connected directly to these roads.

uberwolf

MDTyKe wrote: »

Grossly incorrect - their design speed is exactly the same as motorways. If it was 120, the max speed limit would be around 90-100 to allow for people slightly breaking the limit and to stop them flying off the corners...


Matt

thanks for reading 3 further posts where I defined design speed as the speed that the road is intended to be used at. But your input is welcome and useful

ardmacha

Also from learners in the whole way that it happened last year when they tried to change the learners law at short notice.

There should be less learners, and some of those expect to be in the clear before this comes in. However I'd say there are quite a few out there who aren't bothered complaining about this, not because they accept that a motorway may not be the place to learn to drive, but because they do not expect that there will be any enforcement of the motorway restrictions in any case. Your average learner nowadays reckons they can do what they like.

mysterious

So it seems, that all the current HQDC that will open this year will still have green signs.

I know they are waiting for the new motorway order to come through, but this is still madness when a year later they will have to replace with blue signage

I'm hearing that the only routes that will defenately go ahead as motorway

M7 Nenagh to limerick
M8 Cashel to Urlingford
Maybe the Cashel to Cahir section??
As these will open in 2009 and possibly late 2008


P.S Does anyone know what the situation with the Nenagh bypass/. It's utter lunacy when there are no documents or a scrap of anything online to see what's been built.
Will it be Motorway as planned in the reclassifications??

icdg

Lets make (a fairly heavty) jump and say, for the sake of supposition, all the reclassification orders are granted.

The already opened roads - Kinnegad-Kilbeggan and the Cashel Bypass - can be converted to motorway as soon as the orders are made.

Of the schemes proposed to open as motorway, the Carlow bypass (N9) and Kilbegggan - Athlone (N6) are the only schemes due to immenently open and which may still open as HQDC if this process complete. Next up after that are on the N8 Cashel-Mitchelstown and Cashel-Urlingford (Urlingford - Culahill is being built under an MO and will open as motorway in any case). I imagine the orders will be through before either of these open.

It will probably be 2009 before we see Nenagh-Limerick, I doubt it will open this year. Same for more of the N9 schemes. The last and final scheme is Castletown - Nenagh which has not even commenced construction yet and together with Ballinasloe-Athlone (not part of this round of reclassifications) will probably be the last inter-urban schemes to open.

As for the Nenagh bypass. Last time I was on it there was a huge amount of cones and works for the entire lenght of the bypass. Yes if it is reclassified as plans it will be motorway, however, I still wouldn't expect a 120km/h speed limit.

Chris_533976

Ballinasloe - Athlone is in construction, but not in the reclassification. Ballinasloe - Galway isnt in the reclassficiation either, not sure why. Only thing I can think of is that they dont want a gap in the M6 for the Athlone bypass. Weirdness.

Cashel - Mitchelstown -> Cashel - Cahir (about half of the whole scheme) is open as HQDC.

fricatus

icdg wrote: »

The last and final scheme is Castletown - Nenagh which has not even commenced construction yet and together with Ballinasloe-Athlone (not part of this round of reclassifications) will probably be the last inter-urban schemes to open.

Don't bet on it. Kilcullen-Carlow north and Knocktopher-Carlow south have yet to get underway, unless you have some information to say that Castletown-Nenagh is well behind these in the planning stages. On the NRA website they're still at the tender stage, although I've just this week seen some huts, 4X4s and men in illuminous (;)) jackets setting up a presence on the N10 just south of Danesfort in KK, at the point where I believe the M9 is due to cross.

Bards

Both remaining sections of N9 are due to get under way in March

SISK/Roadbridge JV have the Knocktopher to Carlow Section

Roadbridge have the Carlow to Kilcullen Section

Chris_533976

Looks like it'll be finishing N6 then N8 then N9 then N7, at the current rate of starting.

serfboard

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Looks like it'll be finishing N6 then N8 then N9 then N7, at the current rate of starting.

It'll make the Galway Races and its associated Fianna Fail trough, sorry tent, easier to get to

Lennoxschips

will all the stipey yellow lines have to be repainted solid?

Our man in Havana

Yes, and all the signs will need changing too.

ga2re2t

Just a few comments:

As far as I understand it from reading the M6 to Athlone thread in the Commuting Transport > Infrastructure section, the contractors on that section of the N6 have already started putting up blue motorway signs. It's expected to open in Sept/Oct 2008.

If L-drivers want to drive on a motorway, all they need to do is take off their L-plates. Very little chance (no chance maybe?) of being stopped. That's what my brother does anyways! :mad:

In my opinion, L-drivers who are accompanied by a driving instructor, or an experienced driver, should be allowed on motorways. How else are they meant to learn how to drive on one - in a book?!! Is there any other developed country in the world where learner drivers have no practical experience on a motorway before passing their driving test?

L1011

ga2re2t wrote: »

Is there any other developed country in the world where learner drivers have no practical experience on a motorway before passing their driving test?

The UK!

icdg

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Looks like it'll be finishing N6 then N8 then N9 then N7, at the current rate of starting.

Yep, looks that way although N8 may overtaken N6. Highly ironic given the huge headstart the N7 had on every single other interurban.

As for the motorway regulations, they were taken nearly word-for-word from the UK. Even the "Motorway Ahead" signs are derived nearly word-for-word from a sign which was present as early as the M6 Preston Bypass (opened 1958) and continued to be in use until the mid-1980s (after we had opened our first motorways). UK signs had an "(Except HGVs)" underneath the "NO L-drivers" bit though.

Chris_533976

I doubt the N8 will win

Mitchelstown - Fermoy only just started, whereas the last N6 to start, Ballinasloe - Athlone was a few months previous.

Also the M7/M8 Portlaoise scheme has a completion date of Q4 2010, which I suspect is overkill but that one may take longer as theres more of it