Sligo and Environs plan review

magnumlady

http://archives.tcm.ie/sligoweekender/2008/01/03/story34581.asp

I kept forgetting to post this.
Can we submit comments that the plan should be changed to allow the likes of Argos to come in I wonder?

It said any submissions are due in by Feb 8th, but I'm not sure if thats for businesses or members of the public.

Gillie

If I thought it would make a difference I would but I really don't think it would.

magnumlady

I sort of think the same Gillie

dingding

Submissions, which must be in by 5pm on February 8, may address any planning matter, from broad policy issues to specific types of development in identified areas. It is advisable to include a map with all submissions concerning a location or feature.
Submissions should be headed “Sligo and Environs Development Plan Review” and posted to: Anna Jones, Administrative Officer, Sligo Borough Council, City Hall, Quay Street, Sligo or Janet McNamara, Administrative Officer, Planning Section, Sligo County Council, County Hall, Riverside, Sligo. Submissions may also be e-mailed to sedp@sligoborough.ie.

Should we all email in a submission.

magnumlady

It sounds like they are looking for submissions from businesses, it is confusing though.

muffler

This is part of the public consultation process whereby the local authority makes its proposals available for public inspection and comment. They are legally obliged to do this and all comments must be submitted in writing.

The reason they ask for a map with a submission/comment is to ensure they can properly identify the particular building or area that the submission relates to. Everyone is entitled to comment on the proposed development plan - after all it will shape how the area will be planned and managed over the next 5 years. In fairness the business community will most likely have the largest number of submissions but every individual should also make their own submissions or if you are part of a community group then you should also do so.

Despite the perceived notion that it will have no relevance people should really inspect the draft plan and offer their opinions and submissions - yes it does make a difference (sometimes anyhow) so please dont sit back and leave it to someone else. Its a bit like voting in an election in a way - people tend to think that their vote wont make any difference - can you imagine what would happen if every single person adopted that approach.

magnumlady

So if we wanted to say that we wanted an Argos, would we have to submit a map of the area that we wanted it in?
I don't mind where it goes to be honest.

tuppence

muffler wrote: »

Despite the perceived notion that it will have no relevance people should really inspect the draft plan and offer their opinions and submissions - yes it does make a difference (sometimes anyhow) so please dont sit back and leave it to someone else. Its a bit like voting in an election in a way - people tend to think that their vote wont make any difference - can you imagine what would happen if every single person adopted that approach.

Totally agree, wise words. (Shockingly agreeing with you Muffler :eek:). We cant go round complaining about things if we havent at least tried to do something about it. hey is this where we can complain about the like of O Connell street and lack of developmet as public amenity , lack of Toliets, lack of parking, lack of free public festivals and regular markets, lack of disabled friendly transport.....Argos is but one aspect but its an important one on the shape/development and potential sprawl of the town wasnt it?

dingding

http://www.sligoborough.ie/media/SEDP%20Review%20Guide%20-%20full%20document%20-%20low-res%20-%2010%20December%202007.pdf

Detailed Guidance documment from Sligo Borough site.

http://www.sligoborough.ie/News/Name,7816,en.html

The press release that the article was drawn up from.

I agree with Muffler. It is important to participate.

tuppence

This is it isnt it. Havent looked at it yet and bit frightened to.
http://www.sligococo.ie/YourCouncil/Name,7913,en.html

tuppence

Snap or ding dong or something!:D

muffler

magnumlady wrote: »

So if we wanted to say that we wanted an Argos, would we have to submit a map of the area that we wanted it in?
I don't mind where it goes to be honest.

I wouldnt recommend naming a particular store or company in a submission. However you could voice your opinion on the lack of large retail outlets and maybe have a look at what areas are going to be zoned for retail business. I know there have been problems in the past with the likes of Argos (problems by not allowing them to locate there I believe). You can of course submit a map or refer to a pre-defined point on their own development map but a store like Argo would I think have to be located in an established or proposed retail park/centre so that is why its important to see what they are proposing for the various area.

There are "retail planning guidelines" issued by the DOE which the local authorities must adhere to. These guidelines stipulate for example the maximum distance that large retail stores can be from the town or city centre. It is important that any suggestion made would take into account these guidelines.

muffler

tuppence wrote: »

Totally agree, wise words. (Shockingly agreeing with you Muffler :eek:). We cant go round complaining about things if we havent at least tried to do something about it. hey is this where we can complain about the like of O Connell street and lack of developmet as public amenity , lack of Toliets, lack of parking, lack of free public festivals and regular markets, lack of disabled friendly transport.....Argos is but one aspect but its an important one on the shape/development and potential sprawl of the town wasnt it?

I think you have made a damn fine statement tuppence. As I said it is important that people make their views be known. If they dont the planners assume that everyone is happy with their proposals and hey presto you have things happening (or not happening) that you were not aware of or in agreement with.

tuppence

muffler wrote: »

. As I said it is important that people make their views be known. If they dont the planners assume that everyone is happy with their proposals and hey presto you have things happening (or not happening) that you were not aware of or in agreement with.

Its probably the kind of plan to forward to "vocal' mates as well.

il gatto

Having witnessed such a planning consultation in the past, I would suggest one is urinating in a heading diametrically opposed to the wind. Your views are heard, noted even, then ignored, because they're the planners and they know best. The Co. Co. know what your views are re:Argos. They're the same as the vast majority of Sligo people. If they had any intention of doing what those people wanted, they could have done it several years ago. This is a lip service to make people feel included and they can refer back to it when challenged about inclusiveness. If Argos are allowed to come to a site they want, the planning office will say it's because of this consultation. If they're not allowed, this consultation will never be spoken of again. It'll only serve what purpose the Co. Co. finds suitable but it won't do any good to participate unless you're an "interested perty" i.e. in a particular party or a businessman of some local standing.
It may sound cynical, but from numerous past expierences, that's the way the system works in Sligo. May do elewhere too, but I wouldn't know apart from hearsay.

tuppence

il gatto wrote: »

Having witnessed such a planning consultation in the past, I would suggest one is urinating in a heading diametrically opposed to the wind. Your views are heard, noted even, then ignored, because they're the planners and they know best. The Co. Co. know what your views are re:Argos. They're the same as the vast majority of Sligo people. If they had any intention of doing what those people wanted, they could have done it several years ago. This is a lip service to make people feel included and they can refer back to it when challenged about inclusiveness. If Argos are allowed to come to a site they want, the planning office will say it's because of this consultation. If they're not allowed, this consultation will never be spoken of again. It'll only serve what purpose the Co. Co. finds suitable but it won't do any good to participate unless you're an "interested perty" i.e. in a particular party or a businessman of some local standing.
It may sound cynical, but from numerous past expierences, that's the way the system works in Sligo. May do elewhere too, but I wouldn't know apart from hearsay.

Its not all a big conspiracy theory is it? Some of it might (might) be about some qualified people doing a job, abideing by planning restrictions, which may even be there to protect inhabitants of our county/country and of our environement. There are restrictions that they have to abide to for a reason, eg the retail guidelines, or restrictions I presume to protect green belt sites and our heritage whatever. Its about been able to monitor the job they are doing about the long term vision of Sligo as well as us having an impact to it.
Its also a way of informing ourselves surely. We can'nt relax things for a short term gain, cos its fashionable to have Argos here at the moment and tomorrow then what Ikea. If we do we need to see the impact. What kinda place would/could that make Sligo to live in? What kind of legacy might that leave to our kids to our visitors if we create a urban spawl etc.
Its the main sanctioned avenue of feeding back and whatever way you look at it, at least if you input to it they have to keep a record and it has to be transperent. The more people make submissions the more they have to take heed I would have thought, the less it can be tokenistic.
(Phew glad Il gatto decided not to go for mod, twould be crucifixon for me :eek:)

magnumlady

I think the whole problem about coming up with suggestions for the review is that most of it seems to be its who you know.
It all boils down to the fact that the Chamber of Commerce is mostly made of shopkeepers in the town.
Although the very least they could do is provide a public toilet.

il gatto

tuppence wrote: »

Its not all a big conspiracy theory is it? Some of it might (might) be about some qualified people doing a job, abideing by planning restrictions, which may even be there to protect inhabitants of our county/country and of our environement. There are restrictions that they have to abide to for a reason, eg the retail guidelines, or restrictions I presume to protect green belt sites and our heritage whatever. Its about been able to monitor the job they are doing about the long term vision of Sligo as well as us having an impact to it.
Its also a way of informing ourselves surely. We can'nt relax things for a short term gain, cos its fashionable to have Argos here at the moment and tomorrow then what Ikea. If we do we need to see the impact. What kinda place would/could that make Sligo to live in? What kind of legacy might that leave to our kids to our visitors if we create a urban spawl etc.
Its the main sanctioned avenue of feeding back and whatever way you look at it, at least if you input to it they have to keep a record and it has to be transperent. The more people make submissions the more they have to take heed I would have thought, the less it can be tokenistic.
(Phew glad Il gatto decided not to go for mod, twould be crucifixon for me :eek:)

Without being too simplistic, explain what reason they used to justify what difference having Argos would have made to Sligo and it's environs. In the broader scheme of things, being able to buy a toy/saucepan/armchir from Argos outside of the town's prescribed boundry for such things , or buying it from Toy City, Homebase or whoever makes absolutely no difference to anybody. the fact is the "interested" parties took fright at Argos and ignored the threat of the other retailers. They concentrated their pull on Argos, hence it was banned. It's a rotten system, absolutely and totally.
The Co. Co. know people's thoughts on alot of such issues, and they hide behind doing what's best for us. Argos moving into Unit 4 instead of Land of Leather would not have negatively impacted on anyone's life. The green space was built on. There was no reason for it to be done other than placate the people who matter more in Sligo.
It's not a conspiracy theory. It's just the way things work. The amount of representations will make it less tokenistic, only if those representations don't thread on some business person's or politicians toes. Otherwise, they'll be ignored.

magnumlady

il gatto wrote: »

Without being too simplistic, explain what reason they used to justify what difference having Argos would have made to Sligo and it's environs. In the broader scheme of things, being able to buy a toy/saucepan/armchir from Argos outside of the town's prescribed boundry for such things , or buying it from Toy City, Homebase or whoever makes absolutely no difference to anybody. the fact is the "interested" parties took fright at Argos and ignored the threat of the other retailers. They concentrated their pull on Argos, hence it was banned. It's a rotten system, absolutely and totally.
The Co. Co. know people's thoughts on alot of such issues, and they hide behind doing what's best for us. Argos moving into Unit 4 instead of Land of Leather would not have negatively impacted on anyone's life. The green space was built on. There was no reason for it to be done other than placate the people who matter more in Sligo.
It's not a conspiracy theory. It's just the way things work. The amount of representations will make it less tokenistic, only if those representations don't thread on some business person's or politicians toes. Otherwise, they'll be ignored.

You're damn right il gatto.

tuppence

There is a whole thread dedicated to Argos! :eek: Not to be too simplistic but if one narrows down the Sligo Environs plan to one issue to do with retailing then it would be to devalue the potential impact of the development plan for the people of Sligo. Individuals can make their voices singularly and in community groups etc on many arenas of heritage, (eg make sure that a development on lough gile doesnt happen again or try to amend it) housing (eg what about affordable housing and increasing it teh amt of it ), about public space and recreation, about accessible transportation, and yes about retail opportunities among other things.
I posted the section about retail over on the Argos thread!
I should have posted it here too, cos this is an Argos thread too. Sorry.
http://www.sligoborough.ie/media/Media,2165,en.pdf

il gatto

Do you believe there's any will in the Co. Co. to bring about proper public transport, affordable housing or public spaces in any meaningful way? Argos is just a symptom of a deep rooted apathy amongst our local polititions and civil servants. The fact that a single retailer is singled out like that is bizarre. More random is the decision to not allow a major grocery store to locate on the outskirts of town. I've yet to see another town that has outlawed this. Are we so very far advanced in Sligo? Have Sligo planners discovered something planners all over the world have not?
As an indulgence, I'll give an example of Sligo planning. The field which borders my fathers land has been granted planning permission for 10 two storey houses. My fathers land is in a scenic area, deemed a buffer zone, where no developement will take place. Except for some neighbours, who sold sites with planning, planning granted as "gap filling". Therefore the guy over the hedge can build a small housing estate, and on the other side the neighbours can perpetuate ribbon developement along our roads, while at the same time, I can't build on my family's land, even though the house would be invisable from the road and would be far less obstrusive than the 10 houses next door. There's no point coming up with these draconian measures which seemingly apply only to certain people, and allowing rampant developement elsewhere. I won't waste my time on these people, so they can look for representations from elsewhere.

tuppence

il gatto wrote: »

Do you believe there's any will in the Co. Co. to bring about proper public transport, affordable housing or public spaces in any meaningful way? Argos is just a symptom of a deep rooted apathy amongst our local polititions and civil servants. The fact that a single retailer is singled out like that is bizarre. More random is the decision to not allow a major grocery store to locate on the outskirts of town. I've yet to see another town that has outlawed this. Are we so very far advanced in Sligo? Have Sligo planners discovered something planners all over the world have not?
As an indulgence, I'll give an example of Sligo planning. The field which borders my fathers land has been granted planning permission for 10 two storey houses. My fathers land is in a scenic area, deemed a buffer zone, where no developement will take place. Except for some neighbours, who sold sites with planning, planning granted as "gap filling". Therefore the guy over the hedge can build a small housing estate, and on the other side the neighbours can perpetuate ribbon developement along our roads, while at the same time, I can't build on my family's land, even though the house would be invisable from the road and would be far less obstrusive than the 10 houses next door. There's no point coming up with these draconian measures which seemingly apply only to certain people, and allowing rampant developement elsewhere. I won't waste my time on these people, so they can look for representations from elsewhere.

There can be "a will' if the the public is chasing them enough about what matters to them on all those fronts. And of course if our public representatives councillors are "worried" enough. When is the next council election? But first you need to try and input things into the plan. I would have thought even if you dont have much trust now, its still a long term plan. If you are not in and all that. It is formal document that you can hold them too. They are a public body, we as the tax payer own them, they should be accountable to us, and therefore we should be more involved in what they do. (I know I am a hopeful idealist.)

I dont know about Argos, Heck planning isnt my thing. Perhaps they are just a high profile example for everyone else following. Are you saying that you are against this type of sequential planning for retailers? I would prefer to see Sligo develop this way myself, but am not against diversity of shopping. Perhaps the problem lies in the lack of places inside the town boundary rather than relaxing what looks like a top down government led directive anyway. Carraroe is too far out for a mixed type of shop like Argos. They are'nt banned totally are they? Just the right site hasnt come up inside the boundary? Thats were sligo co co are at fault, tehy should be faciilitating this if theres a public will, and politcal will to curb mixed development outside town boundary.
Look re the housing planning i dont know how they can get away with these things too, alot appears to be stupidity and alot of individuals messing with the system there too, and other sinister aspects. Lets face it the some developers have been let away with plenty of plight so to speak.
Anyway one thing is for sure, its somone just like you should have been at the consultations pointing out inconsistencies in planning, and putting in a submisson now too.
You still can, we wont tell.

il gatto

I went to a public consultation a few years back. A complete and utter waste of time. Only the most outrageous of their plans were not carried out in the area in question. Only the plans which had people frothing at the mouth.
You are idealistic, as am I. Dealing with local government is however, a complete and utter waste of time unless you're willing to join up a political party and even then your idealism will be beaten out of you in favour of doing a loyal supporter a good turn.
Accountable to us? Accountability doesn't mean sh1t in Ireland. Look at our political leader of the past decade, squirming on the stand in a tribunal. If he's not accountable, why expect anything better of the minnions at the bottom.
They don't want the public involved. It's an afterthought, after the fact of the Co. Co. screwing things up royally.
One last point on Argos. How is it too far out for a "mixed shop"? What does that mean? It's on the outskirts of town, much like many other Argos' around the country. The Retail park is already full of shops selling similar things. It doesn't make any sense to let furniture shops, a toy shop, an electrical shop (white goods and home entertainment), a massive home decor shop and several other random retailers, locate there and then say it's too far out for a "mixed shop" selling products, the majority of which are already on sale up there.
Sequential planning only rings true as a notion if it's consistant and it's not. They pick and choose where planning matters, making it a pointless exercise. They put a massive road through the center of town instead of a bypass. That doesn't smack of a great concern for the health of the urban community or the protection of the town center. It's what suited them at the time, like most decisions they've made. They bleat on about unsuitable shops at Carraroe bringing about negative effects on the town center. Who in their right mind has ever seen a town without a large grocery store on the outskirts? It's amazing to think they've got away with such a pointless use of power. The result is thousands of cars choking the town to get to Dunnes and Tesco. Totally counter productive. And then they try and tell us it's for our benefit? I for one feel like they've been more than negligent. They've acted in the interests of a small minority to the detriment of others. That has to be the worst thing a civil servant or an elected representative can do.

tuppence

So what are you going to do, make bad decesion making worse by letting shops sell stuff other than warehouse and bulky type stuff (my interpratation) in Carraroe cos of inconsistencies in the past. Maybe they were pulled up on the directive. (If not just by retailers with vested interest that’s not necessarily the viability of the centre)
You can’t have a free for all surely, that will certainly change the way Sligo has a potential to be. (Lonely planet seemed to think it’s got something going for it) You want to keep a vibrnat centre and this woudl nt be the way to d it imo anyway. The development at the waterfront is good; pedestrenisation of O Connell Street was a good idea for the public (not for the traffic mind) but needs to be finished. Yes the infrastructure isn’t there either for buggies, wheelchairs etc and accessibility on the streets yet but it can be and it can be pushed now perhaps. (Disability legislation hopefully will ensure that road and pavement work on the centre can be accommodating for all). Now they need to be doing more of the same with the recreational areas. What’s wrong with having for whatever reson an indigenous mixed base of shops as a start? At least its not a carbon copy of towns all round Ireland at the moment taken over by same brand shops.
Maybe because of sequential planning or entrenched views or something there my still be a chance to make Sligo a planned town.(opphs)
Accountability has to start somewhere. It may well be that Berties political career may meet an end by his own sword. That would be a good symbol for a fresh start. Anyway there is talk that the Greens pushing to reform local government. I would like to think tokenistic consultations might be a thing of the past. Until then if you haven’t got into the plan you certainly don’t have a chance on prioritising what you want getting done. (Hope)

magnumlady

But the shops in Carraroe are already selling non bulky items:
Toys, curtains, plants, packets of nails..........the list is endless.
So how is it OK for them, but not for Argos who also sell bulky goods and smaller items.
One rule for one and one for another.
When you do your weeks shopping in the supermarket it turns into a bulky item as well because of the amount of shopping you have.
It makes more sense for a supermarket to be in Carraroe then the hassle of trying to drive into town, trying to find a parking space and possibly ending up in Connaughton Road and having to try and push a trolley all the way up there. I'm waiting for the day when the trolleys will be dumped all over the place.
In fact this is already the case judging by the few I've seen in the river.

tuppence

magnumlady wrote: »

But the shops in Carraroe are already selling non bulky items:
Toys, curtains, plants, packets of nails..........the list is endless.
So how is it OK for them, but not for Argos who also sell bulky goods and smaller items.
One rule for one and one for another.
When you do your weeks shopping in the supermarket it turns into a bulky item as well because of the amount of shopping you have.
It makes more sense for a supermarket to be in Carraroe then the hassle of trying to drive into town, trying to find a parking space and possibly ending up in Connaughton Road and having to try and push a trolley all the way up there. I'm waiting for the day when the trolleys will be dumped all over the place.
In fact this is already the case judging by the few I've seen in the river.

Yes i agree there seems to inconsistencies. But placing supermarkets in places like this wold isolate non car drivers. There isnt access to this place rugularly with accessible public transport and it isnt near a high level density area within walking distance. The lack of parking places is something separate that should be pushed on anyway (even in thsi plan perhaps) imo in the centre of the town. Its shouldnt be the main reason to move the 'bread and butter' type of retailers to a type of place like Carraroe I would have thought. Antisocial behavour then again is a mine field, were trolleys disgarded are a symptom of bigger things. I dont think in many cases its from disgruntled shoppers but if it is, its still is asb.

magnumlady

Even if they put a supermarket in Carraroe there would still be ones in town to cater for people that don't have cars.
The majority of people don't live in the centre of town anyway and have to find some kind of transport to get their shopping.
Maybe one day Sligo might have internet grocery shopping.

tuppence

magnumlady wrote: »

Even if they put a supermarket in Carraroe there would still be ones in town to cater for people that don't have cars.
The majority of people don't live in the centre of town anyway and have to find some kind of transport to get their shopping.
Maybe one day Sligo might have internet grocery shopping.

But even for choice should people be segregated.
Buses tend to be heading in and out of town i reckon anyway. (bit like the national rail service all going from and through Dublin!)
Does Tescos not do internet shopping? That is bad isnt it and a wasted marketing opportunity if some of them have'nt cottoned on to it?

il gatto

tuppence wrote: »

So what are you going to do, make bad decesion making worse by letting shops sell stuff other than warehouse and bulky type stuff (my interpratation) in Carraroe cos of inconsistencies in the past. Maybe they were pulled up on the directive. (If not just by retailers with vested interest that’s not necessarily the viability of the centre)
You can’t have a free for all surely, that will certainly change the way Sligo has a potential to be. (Lonely planet seemed to think it’s got something going for it) You want to keep a vibrnat centre and this woudl nt be the way to d it imo anyway. The development at the waterfront is good; pedestrenisation of O Connell Street was a good idea for the public (not for the traffic mind) but needs to be finished. Yes the infrastructure isn’t there either for buggies, wheelchairs etc and accessibility on the streets yet but it can be and it can be pushed now perhaps. (Disability legislation hopefully will ensure that road and pavement work on the centre can be accommodating for all). Now they need to be doing more of the same with the recreational areas. What’s wrong with having for whatever reson an indigenous mixed base of shops as a start? At least its not a carbon copy of towns all round Ireland at the moment taken over by same brand shops.
Maybe because of sequential planning or entrenched views or something there my still be a chance to make Sligo a planned town.(opphs)
Accountability has to start somewhere. It may well be that Berties political career may meet an end by his own sword. That would be a good symbol for a fresh start. Anyway there is talk that the Greens pushing to reform local government. I would like to think tokenistic consultations might be a thing of the past. Until then if you haven’t got into the plan you certainly don’t have a chance on prioritising what you want getting done. (Hope)

Letting shops do what exactly? Let? Worse? What great crime has Argos and Tesco committed?
A free for all? I never suggested that. I'm all for planning, but having sweeping rules invented by the Co. Co. and Borough Council, which are pointedly adressed to individual retailers? No. I don't approve of that. I don't like having planning thrust upon me by people who ensured Sligo went for the best part of a decade with no publin toilet.
And the Green Party? They've banned one form of light bulb. It's the type you need with a dimmer switch. Oh. And they've taken another €50 a year in car tax off me. Here's to the Greens. Funny how other Green Parties around Europe have been in power for years, and yet no other country in Europe has banned the light bulb. It makes me proud to be Irish, and to have been part of this Green revolution. One type of light bulb. Where will it all end? They'll never get a vote from me again. I can do without enviromentalists blaming, and punishing financially the public for the shortcomings of government policy. We burn millions of tonnes of coal and oil for electricity? Lets tax cars even more and then ban a light bulb.
And the thought of giving more power to local government? With the corruption and ineptitude indemic to local government in this region at least, that's a scenario I don't even want to contemplate.

easkey

il gatto wrote: »

Without being too simplistic, explain what reason they used to justify what difference having Argos would have made to Sligo and it's environs. In the broader scheme of things, being able to buy a toy/saucepan/armchir from Argos outside of the town's prescribed boundry for such things , or buying it from Toy City, Homebase or whoever makes absolutely no difference to anybody. the fact is the "interested" parties took fright at Argos and ignored the threat of the other retailers. They concentrated their pull on Argos, hence it was banned. It's a rotten system, absolutely and totally.
The Co. Co. know people's thoughts on alot of such issues, and they hide behind doing what's best for us. Argos moving into Unit 4 instead of Land of Leather would not have negatively impacted on anyone's life. The green space was built on. There was no reason for it to be done other than placate the people who matter more in Sligo.
It's not a conspiracy theory. It's just the way things work. The amount of representations will make it less tokenistic, only if those representations don't thread on some business person's or politicians toes. Otherwise, they'll be ignored.

YES - YES - YES. Well said il gatto
I think we see things like this with the same eye.:cool:

tuppence

Theres a philosophy about business and management about THEM and US.
We can have an opinion that "they' manage and do not appear to be acting in our best interests. We can be uncertain at what lies in the heart of these decesions whether swaying to lobby of individual retailers or an attempt at applying what may be deemed best protocol. The inconsistency suggests that its the former. I have been giving teh Co.Co the benefit of the doubt. ( an unpopular option), I would have a preference for a consistent inner to outer planning though. Anyway, we are stuck with a system its the only one we have, we are not in a co-operative either (the Us).
But imo we are 'in between' with local government We can use the representative system as well as we can to change things.
How can we go on about the nat government and policies if we havent voted? How can we go on about local government, and have problems with how they go about their planning processes if we dont use the system thats there to at least voice it (especially if theres a perceived corruption), through the consultatation process through lobbying councillors or through becoming involved in the political process at a local level. So back to the start.
Anyone going to write a submission then?:)

muffler

Some good points have been made in this thread and I can understand il gatto's dismay at the planning process as it is far from perfect no matter where you are. But people should really try to change the system rather than fight it or take a defeatist approach by walking away from it.

As part of the local government system in this country politics and planning are intertwined and while we may not like it we have to accept unless the legislators come up with a better system. Maximize the few available opportunities that this system offers up and put your comments and submissions forward. If people are capable of making the effort of posting in this thread (which at the end of the day will count for nothing) and making their feelings known then surely its not unreasonable to ask them to make the same effort with a submission on the development plan where it will possibly count for something.

tuppence made a good point when she said that councillors should be lobbied. This is a point which in fact has a lot more significance than people realise. Just to explain - the planners will prepare a development plan and put their best efforts into it but after the public consultation process some of their proposals are amended to take into account public opinion on certain issues. When they have a "final draft" in place they then put it to a full meeting of the elected members of the council (councillors) and they (the councillors) have the power to accept, reject or amend the final draft. When everything is in order so to speak the councillors take a vote on the adoption of the plan. They put their little work shy hands up in the air and a vote of adoption is accepted.

There you have it folks. Its not the planners who bring this development plan into force for a 5 year period - it is the councillors who do so. The planners can make all the proposals and recommendations under the sun but the people who you voted for and elected at the last local elections are the people who have the final say in the matter.

My advice now is for people to make their submissions to both the planning authority and to the elected members of the council. If you are part of a group or organisation or club then invite those politicians to one of your meetings and get their backing and commitment on your own proposals. if there is a public meeting then ask the councillors to state their position to the people gathered at that meeting. They are there to represent you not themselves.

tulipandthistle

tuppence wrote: »

But even for choice should people be segregated.
Buses tend to be heading in and out of town i reckon anyway. (bit like the national rail service all going from and through Dublin!)
Does Tescos not do internet shopping? That is bad isnt it and a wasted marketing opportunity if some of them have'nt cottoned on to it?

Where I'm from Tesco provides free and regular transport to and from their stores outside the centre. Therefore non drivers will also be catered for....

tuppence

tulipandthistle wrote: »

Where I'm from Tesco provides free and regular transport to and from their stores outside the centre. Therefore non drivers will also be catered for....

Wherabout is that? Is it Ireland? Just dont recall hearing its available over here thats why I am saying. Perhaps its something they might be proposing in inaccessible sites.... (and if they arent maybe they should!). Oh and internet shopping as well.

il gatto

Many councillors (including ones who got votes from me:mad:) are busy making out that the eastern bypass is a travesty against humanity, and doing their best to scupper it, because a small group of people living near it have made a racket, and where there's a band wagon, councillors will jump. I would imagine the vast majority of the people who elected those councillors are in favour of a proper bypass, but it's de rigour to be seen to champion causes contrary to developement and, heaven forbid, infrastructure.
The process is totally beyond rectifying as it was never up to the job in the first place. You need to cut the monsters head off to stop all the wriggling. Start with accountability, decency, honesty and aptitude and effort in national politics, and then make those people take charge of bringing our local politics up to scratch. Our councillors are too busy arguing over who sits on which board to worry about doing their job. I suppose it's worth between €20,000 and €40,000 a year to play at polititions whilst holding down a full time day job in most cases, so the poor dears are all too tired and wealthy to give a fiddlers about constituents.
There is no system to work from within. Either you are one of the people with "pull" or it's wishful thinking. Only by turning up at the Ard Fheis, giving a few fellas jobs, sponsering a few trophies and building sub standard housing developements and selling them at huge profits, so Irish people find themselves in a position of any influence in politics.
It's all too hideous a thought to contemplate, but there's no point deluding ourselves into thinking our polititions gice a rats ass about what we think or whats best for us. Things trickle down, not up. Changes have to be made at the top.

muffler

Like I said earlier there are some fine points being made BUT there are a lot of other points that have nothing to do with the this thread.

Can we please stick to the topic at hand please.

easkey

il gatto wrote: »

Many councillors (including ones who got votes from me:mad:) are busy making out that the eastern bypass is a travesty against humanity, and doing their best to scupper it, because a small group of people living near it have made a racket, and where there's a band wagon, councillors will jump. I would imagine the vast majority of the people who elected those councillors are in favour of a proper bypass, but it's de rigour to be seen to champion causes contrary to developement and, heaven forbid, infrastructure.
The process is totally beyond rectifying as it was never up to the job in the first place. You need to cut the monsters head off to stop all the wriggling. Start with accountability, decency, honesty and aptitude and effort in national politics, and then make those people take charge of bringing our local politics up to scratch. Our councillors are too busy arguing over who sits on which board to worry about doing their job. I suppose it's worth between €20,000 and €40,000 a year to play at polititions whilst holding down a full time day job in most cases, so the poor dears are all too tired and wealthy to give a fiddlers about constituents.
There is no system to work from within. Either you are one of the people with "pull" or it's wishful thinking. Only by turning up at the Ard Fheis, giving a few fellas jobs, sponsering a few trophies and building sub standard housing developements and selling them at huge profits, so Irish people find themselves in a position of any influence in politics.
It's all too hideous a thought to contemplate, but there's no point deluding ourselves into thinking our polititions gice a rats ass about what we think or whats best for us. Things trickle down, not up. Changes have to be made at the top.

Again I agree with you about our councillors.
The People that are supposed to our leaders and mentors.

An old man once asked me?

“What is the definition of Honesty”

Answer: “The fear of been caught”

Our Politicians have been caught so often
They do not care anymore !!!!!!!!

tuppence

The European Environmental Agency shamed Ireland for our lack of planning and creation of urban sprawl both in our cities and our villages. Dublin is cited as developer led as opposed to planning led and shown up on how not to plan a city. Its not just a problem in Dublin but countrywide. Munich I believe is seen as been a good example of best practice, keeping development within its boundaries. Sometimes its worth listening to the planners recommendations (and best practice)set out as they may have our best interests. Maybe Sligo, still has time to learn the lesson of Dublin.
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10007490.shtml

starbelgrade

The Development Plan is a joke - colouring in a few areas on a map & allocating what each colour represents is hardly what I'd consider Town Planning.

tuppence

starbelgrade wrote: »

The Development Plan is a joke - colouring in a few areas on a map & allocating what each colour represents is hardly what I'd consider Town Planning.

Do you have problems with all plans or just this one? Lets see. What about the National Spatial Strategy? You are being flipant I hope It as a document is what shapes Sligo in the widest farmwork from retailing, to transport, to public space. Its far from game of x and o. As a public document you could have and can still (as Muffler pointed out) have influence on it. If you really have problems with it thats where to bring it.
It also means that you can shove it in the face of the council if they are not achieving goals. Its important as you know as it also being used to object to many developments. Now people may have different viewpoints on whether objections stem from being self serving or from a more informed planning perspective. But whatver is the case Sligo hadnt be ruined yet imo. There may come a time that we or our children might even be thanking the objectors! :eek: (not the begrudgers! )

il gatto

The National Spatial strategy would be a case in point.
This document is five years too late for Sligo. We look back at past decisions and think nobody was to know the outcome, but as far as I know, planning existed five years ago, and, :eek: even before that. Cramming more cars and traffic into the town center has been their modus operandi thus far.
The result of this process will either be an affirmation of their existing approach, or and aspirational wish list, none of which will be implemented properly or at all.
Unless the entire planning office and council chamber have been completely restaffed, I see no reason for optimism in this. It's not begrudgery, it's pragmatism.

GG66

Did anyone make submissions?

I can understand the cynicism as most people will assume that developers and planners get what they want. The fact is if you do not submit to the SEDP then you have point complaining when plans are formulated that you disagree with. The Council will simply say that you were consulted.

I sympathise with il_gato, you've been through the mill with the planning process, but you have to continue to fight your corner, otherwise the balance will continue to slide in favour of developers and other vested interests.

Yes the Council make very bad planning decisions often influenced heavily by developers agenda, (put a road here because I own the land). This is a fact!!
Currently a road T2 11 proposed to run from Carraroe across Cairns Hill has been included in SEDP at developers behest. The road serves no other strategic purpose other than to open up this land for development and generate profits for developers. The resulting road and development will destroy the archaeological heritage of Carns Hill which has equal significance to Carrowmore and Knocknarae.

Currently, The elderly residents near Doorly park who are currently campaigning to stop a road linking to the western link bridge say they were not consulted. Council say they were as SEDP was open for submissions, review and further submissions. Now the Council are issuing compulsary purchase orders for their gardens etc. People in their 80 & 90s are being divided by a road when before they used to walk across to each others houses for a chat..this when they should be enjoying the final years of their lives..

The only way this type of insensitive development will be curtailed is by submissions, public awareness and direct lobbying of local councillors. You can be sure developers have done their lobbying. An election in 2009 makes every councillor sensitive to the public's opinion of him and the more people that are behind a campaign the better chance it has of success.

The nature of campaigns is that most are unsuccessful!!! they require energy and committment and public opinion in their favour.

What I see as the biggest problem with such battles in Ireland is that it's always a "not in my back yard" approach. This makes it hard to win. Communities need to establish networks of support across the County, Country and outside of it. Communities supporting other communities faced with similar threat.

Apathy is the best weapon developers and vested interests have..don't let it take hold.

As for Argos, personally I couldn't care less. I've got enough rubbish that I've thrown out over the years because of poor quality. But I recognise other people should have the choice. I think the retail park at Cararroe should never have gone ahead where it did., its an eyesore on the landscape.

tuppence

GG66 wrote: »

Did anyone make submissions?

I can understand the cynicism as most people will assume that developers and planners get what they want. The fact is if you do not submit to the SEDP then you have point complaining when plans are formulated that you disagree with. The Council will simply say that you were consulted.

I sympathise with il_gato, you've been through the mill with the planning process, but you have to continue to fight your corner, otherwise the balance will continue to slide in favour of developers and other vested interests.

Yes the Council make very bad planning decisions often influenced heavily by developers agenda, (put a road here because I own the land). This is a fact!!
Currently a road T2 11 proposed to run from Carraroe across Cairns Hill has been included in SEDP at developers behest. The road serves no other strategic purpose other than to open up this land for development and generate profits for developers. The resulting road and development will destroy the archaeological heritage of Carns Hill which has equal significance to Carrowmore and Knocknarae.

Currently, The elderly residents near Doorly park who are currently campaigning to stop a road linking to the western link bridge say they were not consulted. Council say they were as SEDP was open for submissions, review and further submissions. Now the Council are issuing compulsary purchase orders for their gardens etc. People in their 80 & 90s are being divided by a road when before they used to walk across to each others houses for a chat..this when they should be enjoying the final years of their lives..

The only way this type of insensitive development will be curtailed is by submissions, public awareness and direct lobbying of local councillors. You can be sure developers have done their lobbying. An election in 2009 makes every councillor sensitive to the public's opinion of him and the more people that are behind a campaign the better chance it has of success.

The nature of campaigns is that most are unsuccessful!!! they require energy and committment and public opinion in their favour.

What I see as the biggest problem with such battles in Ireland is that it's always a "not in my back yard" approach. This makes it hard to win. Communities need to establish networks of support across the County, Country and outside of it. Communities supporting other communities faced with similar threat.

Apathy is the best weapon developers and vested interests have..don't let it take hold.

As for Argos, personally I couldn't care less. I've got enough rubbish that I've thrown out over the years because of poor quality. But I recognise other people should have the choice. I think the retail park at Cararroe should never have gone ahead where it did., its an eyesore on the landscape.

GG66, How true. Our apparent complacency bout real local issues is really concerning. Are we all so insulated that we don’t see these or expect others to be doing it? Communities are about people having things in common and in this case its Sligo. Sligo is more than a shopping hub. It should aspire for us as a community to be a decent places to live, to bring up our children, to feel proud of our heritage, (share it, and protect it) to be living vibrant places for everyone regardless of wealth or physical and mental ability. As a community we all have a vested interest that its done right. Our physical infrastructure has a huge influence on our well being. That’s been proven. Feeling like you can control your environment and aren’t a passive recipient of whatever service/policy is thrown at you is also integral to ones well-being. (called Locus of control). Its positive almost imperative (imo) to keep hopeful that you can change things. It’s the only system that’s there currently.
The other hope is that there might be change coming down the line in central government taking more of an active involvement in the local authority infrastructure. The new residential planning guidelines currently being put forward by Minster John Gormley in a case such as this, whereupon councillors would get reined in that don’t enforce top down policy. (In this case to ensure that developers provide the proper infrastructure for proposed housing) The days of lobbying in the future and unhappy alliances may be numbered. I'd like/ need to think that’s not just wishful thinking.

il gatto

A consultation of the publics views is not a new development. The same people have looked for, and received many representations on numerous planning issues in the past. Lobbying without "clout" is pleading. I wouldn't be adverse to pleading if it worked, but it doesn't.
The simple fact is, the councillors and planners who will make the final decisions are the very same as the ones who funneled traffic into the town center until it choked, the ones who couldn't site a portaloo for half a decade or more and the ones who have ensured Sligo has been found to be the filthiest town in Ireland for the past few years.
On paper, the arguments for participating in the consultation seem fair. In reality, the Co. Co. have repeatedly bent to the wishes of developers and other interested parties (Chamber of Commerce being the most villified).
Although I and members of my family have been on the wrong end of some dubious, and in one case illegal and unsustainable planning decisions, my objection to this wishy washy attempt at appeasing the public is not motivated by any sort of bitterness. However, cynicism, founded on personal experience, augmented by closely following and taking note of the approach and implementation of planning in Sligo, is perfectly natural.

GG66

The other hope is that there might be change coming down the line in central government taking more of an active involvement in the local authority infrastructure. The new residential planning guidelines currently being put forward by Minster John Gormley in a case such as this, whereupon councillors would get reined in that don’t enforce top down policy. (In this case to ensure that developers provide the proper infrastructure for proposed housing) The days of lobbying in the future and unhappy alliances may be numbered. I'd like/ need to think that’s not just wishful thinking.

This does look promising but the SEDP also refers to the proper implementation of infrastructure before planning permission for development is given. Can't testify that they apply it so enforcement by Central Government would be welcome.

On paper, the arguments for participating in the consultation seem fair. In reality, the Co. Co. have repeatedly bent to the wishes of developers and other interested parties (Chamber of Commerce being the most villified).

Agreed, I used to get very annoyed & frustrated by the way Sligo Town (City :rolleyes:) is developing, feeling powerless to make any change... when faced with the power of vested interests. It got to the point where I decide to f*** them and let them destroy it as no-one else seems to care.

The same property developers are in constant engagement with authorities and we often see scenarios where developers do land swaps or otherwise to facilitate development. "Planning" :rolleyes: is developer lead in far too many cases with questionable ethical interests by politicians (for instance, Carraroe retail Park is built on a Sligo Co. Councillors land). Everyone I've spoken to agrees that the retail park at Carraroe is an eye sore but no-one objected at the right time. IMO, the development of the retail park is on a par with the current destruction of the Tara Landscape (it destoys the landscape relationship between Knocknarea, Carrowmore and Carns Hill which are all part of the Cuil Irra Region), yet gets very little attention..

So how do we stop this or have any influence over it? Public opinion is the only weapon individuals have against an increasingly corporate political system...So rather than focus on all the negative aspects that we have problems with...

Anyone got any ideas on how can we influence public opinion to care about these things, rather than simply accept that we cannot change it??

il gatto

GG66 wrote: »

This does look promising but the SEDP also refers to the proper implementation of infrastructure before planning permission for development is given. Can't testify that they apply it so enforcement by Central Government would be welcome.



Agreed, I used to get very annoyed & frustrated by the way Sligo Town (City :rolleyes:) is developing, feeling powerless to make any change... when faced with the power of vested interests. It got to the point where I decide to f*** them and let them destroy it as no-one else seems to care.

The same property developers are in constant engagement with authorities and we often see scenarios where developers do land swaps or otherwise to facilitate development. "Planning" :rolleyes: is developer lead in far too many cases with questionable ethical interests by politicians (for instance, Carraroe retail Park is built on a Sligo Co. Councillors land). Everyone I've spoken to agrees that the retail park at Carraroe is an eye sore but no-one objected at the right time. IMO, the development of the retail park is on a par with the current destruction of the Tara Landscape (it destoys the landscape relationship between Knocknarea, Carrowmore and Carns Hill which are all part of the Cuil Irra Region), yet gets very little attention..

So how do we stop this or have any influence over it? Public opinion is the only weapon individuals have against an increasingly corporate political system...So rather than focus on all the negative aspects that we have problems with...

Anyone got any ideas on how can we influence public opinion to care about these things, rather than simply accept that we cannot change it??

The Co.Co. are only too aware of public opinion on most issues. However, seeing as the civil service is a job for life and the councillors get re-elected regardless of performance, flying in the face of public opinion makes little difference to them.
We can change it, but not by participating in a charade to back their decisions. By taking part, it gives legitimacy to what they're doing. The councillors responsible need to be ejected from their posts at the next local election. People should accept the results of litter surveys and demand an explanation. Questions need to be asked of the civil servants who don't require a mandate, and whose jobs seem secure without exception, whether they have performed or not.

muffler

il gatto wrote: »

and the councillors get re-elected regardless of performance.

il gatto wrote: »

The councillors responsible need to be ejected from their posts at the next local election.

Im lost with the contradictory statements.

GG66

il gatto wrote: »

The Co.Co. are only too aware of public opinion on most issues. However, seeing as the civil service is a job for life and the councillors get re-elected regardless of performance, flying in the face of public opinion makes little difference to them.
We can change it, but not by participating in a charade to back their decisions. By taking part, it gives legitimacy to what they're doing. The councillors responsible need to be ejected from their posts at the next local election. People should accept the results of litter surveys and demand an explanation. Questions need to be asked of the civil servants who don't require a mandate, and whose jobs seem secure without exception, whether they have performed or not.

Councillors don't get re-elected regardless of performance...we haven't had the same councillors for the last two sittings although it may seem like it.. They are very sensitive to public opinion if they feel their seat is at stake. Problem is, I don't think the planning matters that concern us are high up the agenda of most other citizens..so they don't get due attention...

So if you're not prepared to submit to the SEDP or engage in matters that gives legitimacy to what they're doing, how do you propose to raise your issues on planning, litter etc. and gain sufficient support to make a difference?

muffler

GG66 wrote: »

Councillors don't get re-elected regardless of performance...we haven't had the same councillors for the last two sittings although it may seem like it.. They are very sensitive to public opinion if they feel their seat is at stake. Problem is, I don't think the planning matters that concern us are high up the agenda of most other citizens..so they don't get due attention...

So if you're not prepared to submit to the SEDP or engage in matters that gives legitimacy to what they're doing, how do you propose to raise your issues on planning, litter etc. and gain sufficient support to make a difference?

Have to agree with that. I said in an earlier post that people shouldn't adopt a defeatist attitude. Its great that it can be debated here where at the end of the day it serves no purpose what so ever. But if people want change then they must be prepared to make that change themselves whether it be by making submissions on the development plan or voting for a different candidate at the next Council elections

il gatto

muffler wrote: »

Im lost with the contradictory statements.

How so?I said they get re-elected reagrdless of performance. I then said they need to be ejected. The first statement is the reality. The second my view on what should happen.
GG66, many of the councillors currenty holding seats have been there for many years. There is a turnover of a percentage of seats, often filled by clones of what went before. Some councillors are very good, but as a collective, they have performed abysmally.
It's not defeatist to suggest that the first step to bringing about proper local government is to replace the current incumbants. It's my opinion that there is no point in taking part in a process with the present council, unless they have had a road to Demascus style conversion. Rest assured, I will be voting for those I see as honest, hard working and scrupolous, as I have done at every election, rather than towing any party line.
I don't propose to "gain sufficient support" for anything. We elect representatives to campaign on these things. It seems to be too much to expect for them to do their jobs properly.

easkey

Quote:
Originally Posted by il gatto
and the councillors get re-elected regardless of performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by il gatto
The councillors responsible need to be ejected from their posts at the next local election.

muffler wrote: »

Im lost with the contradictory statements.

I see exactly what he is saying!!!!!!!!!

“My Father voted for F? and my grandfather voted F?
so I will vote for F?”

Sheep leading sheep ---
Irish Democracy at work!!!

I agree with u il gatto