End Irish anthem at GAA matches, demands DUP minister

suimhneas

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mheyeyidcwql/

what do you all reckon on this? seriously will end up like the rugby where we nearly have a full blown concert before a match. Hands off the GAA

Mick86

suimhneas wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mheyeyidcwql/

what do you all reckon on this? seriously will end up like the rugby where we nearly have a full blown concert before a match. Hands off the GAA

Anything to get his name in the a papers. If he's that bothered why did he go to the match in the first place?

Tommy T

Poots never 'demanded' anything. It's a suggestion to encourage more unionists to attend or even take part in GAA activities...

listermint

In Fairness the american anthem wouldnt stop me watching a NFL game. just there for the sport.. not the nationalism or politics.

suimhneas

Mick86 wrote: »

Anything to get his name in the a papers. If he's that bothered why did he go to the match in the first place?

seems terribly stupid what should we change out heritage and culture in case we "offened" anyone? we are irish its our national anthem we didnt ask then to not play god save the queen in croke park. Just get over it already, the anthem shouldn't be his focus at a GAA match the scores and the kicks and the speed the excitement the blood guts and gore any of the above leave our anthem alone

conor2007

but see unionists dont see like this
there was no problem in croker when the rugger buggers sang '' god save the queen''

but hey , they seem to be a bunch of narrow minded sheens


(bet there on the croker moment - i sat down listen to some hip hop on me ipod during teh anthem -)

i didnt wrek the stadium like on bloody sunday or like 95 in landsdowne

#15

Some of the ignorance here is laughable.

He didn't demand anything. As has already been pointed out, he said if the GAA wanted to encourage unionists to play GAA games, then they should consider dropping it.

They cannot promote nationalism and then claim they are reaching out to unionists.
There is nothing wrong with promoting nationalism but its false to pretend that they also want unionists to participate in the GAA.
And thats before we get to the issue of naming grounds after members of the PIRA. Great way to encourage unionist participation there:rolleyes:

The comparison to GSTQ in croker is not a valid one. That was a match between Ireland and England.

The GAA is a different situation. How many nationalists/republicans would play soccer in NI if every game was preceded by GSTQ? That is a more real comparison to make.

But no, Poots is the bigotted prod, responsible for bloody sunday and the 95 riots. And probably the famine too:rolleyes:

Hagar

Those guys make it very hard to live and let live.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote: »

Those guys make it very hard to live and let live.

they do indeed.

I presume you are talking about the minister and the GAA

saoranach

#15 wrote: »

And thats before we get to the issue of naming grounds after members of the PIRA. Great way to encourage unionist participation there:rolleyes:

Is there many of them?

The GAA and its sports are a part of Irish culture and tradition. Isnt promoting irish culture one of the GAAs aims? If unionists want to appreciate the GAA they will need to do so within that context and part of that culture and tradition is the playing of Amhran na bhFiann.

Should the GAA no longer fly the tricolour either in case it is offensive?

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

they do indeed.

I presume you are talking about the minister and the GAA

In the interests of peace I suppose we all have to start thinking like that to some extent but I just wonder what the minister is prepared to forego on his side.

#15

saoranach wrote: »

Is there many of them?

The GAA and its sports are a part of Irish culture and tradition. Isnt promoting irish culture one of the GAAs aims? If unionists want to appreciate the GAA they will need to do so within that context and part of that culture and tradition is the playing of Amhran na bhFiann.

Should the GAA no longer fly the tricolour either in case it is offensive?

Thats not what I'm saying.

Promoting Irish culture is fine.

So is promoting nationalism.

But they cannot claim to be inclusive if they remain a nationalist organisation. It is their right to promote nationalism and Irish culture, and to fly the tricolour.
But they can hardly complain when unionists want no part of it, as the flag and the anthem of this country are (unfortunately) seen as symbols of militant republicanism by unionists.

Unionists cannot ''appreciate'' the GAA in that context, the same way that any republican in NI could not ''appreciate'' soccer or rugby if it promoted unionism, played GSTQ before every match, flew the Union flag and named stadiums after loyalist killers.

#15

Hagar wrote: »

In the interests of peace I suppose we all have to start thinking like that to some extent but I just wonder what the minister is prepared to forego on his side.

Well I think the minister has made the first move by attending a match. He has shown he is willing to move forward.
The process will be one of baby steps, with both sides having to make moves they are uncomfortable with. IMO.

Hagar

If he went to participate in the atmosphere and the sporting event I'd say that was indeed progress but if he went just to collect ammo for a new fight that's a different matter.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote: »

In the interests of peace I suppose we all have to start thinking like that to some extent but I just wonder what the minister is prepared to forego on his side.

I know it sounds trite, but his attendance is a concession of sorts. How many republicans would attend IFA league matches if GSTQ was played before kick off?

Sport is where bridges should be built and communities created, I love nationalism in international sport (As long as both sides are mature enough to go for a pint together afterwards) but we are not talking about an anthem that unites a community, it (or rather both anthems) is divisive.

AckwelFoley

Whats next?

No Anthem played at GAA matches because we offended the one muslim that was there?

GSTQ was played before kick off?

Jeez, id go.. i think God Save the Queen is a great aul sing along tune..

C'ommon.. sing with me..

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen:
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us:
God save the Queen

#15

Hagar wrote: »

If he went to participate in the atmosphere and the sporting event I'd say that was indeed progress but if he went just to collect ammo for a new fight that's a different matter.

He didnt go to collect ammo.
He went to the match. He said he enjoyed the game and he said he was there to cheer on his own county. He didnt mention the other issues until he was asked about it. Nor did he demand anything. He was complimentary about the sport, but he mentioned the poltical issues in response to a question about what could be done to increase unionist participation.

That report in the OP makes out he went to the game just to have something to complain about. Which is inaccurate.

#15

snyper wrote: »

Whats next?

No Anthem played at GAA matches because we offended the one muslim that was there?

Completely inaccurate there.

Would you expect any republican in NI to ''appreciate'' soccer or rugby if it promoted unionism, played GSTQ before every match, flew the Union flag and named stadiums after loyalist killers?

At least make the comparisons reasonable!

Danno

You would swear that we (in our past) invaded the North and colonised it with the republicans that live there now. Piff.

These Unionists have got to realise that they are descendants of colonists and have got to live with it - although it is not their fault, it certainly isn't ours.

Welcome to Ireland. This is our culture, don't like it? Buzz off then.

Irish people by their VAST majority, when they emigrated in the past respected the laws and cultures of the host nation and worked very hard in building those countries. Yes, we did bring our culture with us and blended in well in other nations too - hence our well respect that is widely given to us by those other states.

AckwelFoley

#15 wrote: »

Completely inaccurate there.

Would you expect any republican in NI to ''appreciate'' soccer or rugby if it promoted unionism, played GSTQ before every match, flew the Union flag and named stadiums after loyalist killers?

At least make the comparisons reasonable!

Well speaking of reasonalbe comparsions, yours is not either.

The GAA, is the national sport here..

Soccer is not

And so we understand where i stand on the issue.. i, in all honesty couldnt give a bollox.

#15

Danno wrote: »

You would swear that we (in our past) invaded the North and colonised it with the republicans that live there now. Piff.

These Unionists have got to realise that they are descendants of colonists and have got to live with it - although it is not their fault, it certainly isn't ours.

Welcome to Ireland. This is our culture, don't like it? Buzz off then.

No the Gaels got in a few years earlier, so apparently that makes them more legitimate.

All those colonisers are such a nasty crowd. Wait a second, isn't Adams a scottish planter name?

If you insist on looking at history through a black and white lens then you will continue to give inadequate argments such as ''buzz off''.

400 years ago. Planters arrive. Some of their descendants support modern republicanism or nationalism (eg Adams and Hume, both of planter stock). So can they stay?
But the ones who prefer to remain in the UK can't stay?

Many of those unionists are of more ''native'' Irish stock, which doesn't fit in well with such a black and white version of history.

If a unionist is born on this island they have as much right to live here as you or me. What difference does it make if our ancestors have been here for 200, 400 or 600 years? How is one more legitimate than the other?

#15

snyper wrote: »

Well speaking of reasonalbe comparsions, yours is not either.

The GAA, is the national sport here..

Soccer is not

And so we understand where i stand on the issue.. i, in all honesty couldnt give a bollox.

The gaa is not the national sport in NI!

AckwelFoley

#15 wrote: »

The gaa is not the national sport in NI!

touche

Hagar

#15 wrote: »

The gaa is not the national sport in NI!

How could it be? NI is not a nation.

AckwelFoley

Well, its part of the United Kingdom.

Fratton Fred

The national sports of the UK are Football, Rugby and Cricket, so wel'll have GSTQ before each of those games and Amhran na bhFiann before the GAA matches. After the games, we can all stare at each other over barricades and lob a few petrol bombs at one another.

Or, both sides could make a few concessions, embarce the other side of the community and maybe an Ulster team could rival the Munster teams for success.

Tommy T

The Grab All Association have every right to play the Anthem before their shirt pulling and stick fighting matches... I hope my prejudices aren't showing too much...;)

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Or, both sides could make a few concessions,

That's the key to it Fred. I think someone along the line has to make a concession before it's asked for. If both sides can't figure out what's getting up the other side's nose and do something about it before they are forced into it then things will never get better. It has to be both sides though.

#15

Hagar wrote: »

That's the key to it Fred. I think someone along the line has to make a concession before it's asked for. If both sides can't figure out what's getting up the other side's nose and do something about it before they are forced into it then things will never get better. It has to be both sides though.

Nail on the head mate!

dewsbury

I have lived in 3 other countries (2 in Europe , also Canada).

This was a fairly minor GAA match.
In my (international) experience it is not common practice to play national athems for such minor games.
Why the insistence of national anthems on minor occasions....it suggests a lack of personal confidence and also insecurity.

A national anthem should be used for a NATIONAL occasion.

AckwelFoley

dewsbury wrote: »

A national anthem should be used for a NATIONAL occasion.

or at the end of the night in the nightclubs :rolleyes: like they used to do 15 years ago...

..or still in the west of Ireland.

kreuzberger

#15 wrote: »

Thats not what I'm saying.

Promoting Irish culture is fine.

So is promoting nationalism.

But they cannot claim to be inclusive if they remain a nationalist organisation. It is their right to promote nationalism and Irish culture, and to fly the tricolour.
But they can hardly complain when unionists want no part of it, as the flag and the anthem of this country are (unfortunately) seen as symbols of militant republicanism by unionists.

Unionists cannot ''appreciate'' the GAA in that context, the same way that any republican in NI could not ''appreciate'' soccer or rugby if it promoted unionism, played GSTQ before every match, flew the Union flag and named stadiums after loyalist killers.

the GAA was very consciously founded as an engine of national consciousness , its not just a sporting organisation but one with a definite national ethos . In a country where occupation and colonisation has taken place , not just physically but culturally , then such an ethos is bound to raise hackles and come into conflict with a seperate ethios and outlook . As it has done since the very day the GAA was conceived . At times the hurl and even its games were made illegal . The GAA is not just about playing a sport but promoting an ethos . Those who are vehemently opposed to that ethos are the ones who will simply have to deal with their opposition to it . Over the years that has included making various aspects of the game and the games themselves illegal . Any attempt by their modern counterparts to outlaw the GAAs national ethos should be firmly resisted in my opinion .

Im mindful of the fact that my childhood club was in a DUP controlled council area , and their attacks on the club on the basis it played games on a sunday were a constant feature of my childhood . Despite our parents being ratepayers they banned our club from playing on any council property on purely religious grounds . Now theyve come up with another excuse to have a go .

they also employed a council official to tie up all the swings in the playpark on a saturday noght to prevent children from improperly observing the sabbath day by playing on a swing . Grown adults actually did this .

At the end of the day Poots comments and mindset are a product of the countrys abnormal political situation . Only fundamnetal change in the countrys political structures are ever likely to change it . Therefore we'll just have to put up with it and persevere in the face of the inevitable hostility

dewsbury

snyper wrote: »

or at the end of the night in the nightclubs :rolleyes: like they used to do 15 years ago...

..or still in the west of Ireland.

Yes snyper, I just remembered that awful habit of playing anthem at the end of a night.

... typically some young DJ misjudging the situation...a national anthem at 3 in the morning with many bellies full of beer is not appropriate.. more an ego trip for the DJ

With apologies to all DJ's who play the anthem

Lux23

I think we could do with a new anthem. One in english and one that reflects all traditions in Ireland, some loyalists are willing to take an interest in our culture and its about time nationalists did the same. I think if there is to be a united ireland we should include loyalist culture in the same way that we are trying to integrate all the other traditions we have here today. I for one also think its a high time we had a new bank holiday in July just like our neighbours up north!!

And apart from anything else its a woeful ****ing anthem, it means nothing to most people.

Hagar

Lux23 wrote: »

I think we could do with a new anthem. One in english

Why? It's no worse than any other National Anthem. The current one has an English language version.

Lux23 wrote: »

And apart from anything else its a woeful ****ing anthem, it means nothing to most people.

Says you.

kreuzberger

Lux23 wrote: »

some loyalists are willing to take an interest in our culture and its about time nationalists did the same..

by doing what ? picketting catholic primary schools schools and funeral services or kicking someone to death at a bonfire ? or maybe just banging a drum outisde someones chapel ?

what particular aspect of this culture do you think we should adopt ?

#15

the GAA was very consciously founded as an engine of national consciousness , its not just a sporting organisation but one with a definite national ethos . In a country where occupation and colonisation has taken place , not just physically but culturally , then such an ethos is bound to raise hackles and come into conflict with a seperate ethios and outlook . As it has done since the very day the GAA was conceived . At times the hurl and even its games were made illegal . The GAA is not just about playing a sport but promoting an ethos .

Agree. But that ethos is in conflict with unionism. So why are people complaining if unionists do not like the sport?

Those who are vehemently opposed to that ethos are the ones who will simply have to deal with their opposition to it . Over the years that has included making various aspects of the game and the games themselves illegal . Any attempt by their modern counterparts to outlaw the GAAs national ethos should be firmly resisted in my opinion .

The GAA were just as bad with their ban on foreign games, etc.

Both sides commited wrong. Theres no point in criticising just one side.

Im mindful of the fact that my childhood club was in a DUP controlled council area , and their attacks on the club on the basis it played games on a sunday were a constant feature of my childhood . Despite our parents being ratepayers they banned our club from playing on any council property on purely religious grounds . Now theyve come up with another excuse to have a go .

they also employed a council official to tie up all the swings in the playpark on a saturday noght to prevent children from improperly observing the sabbath day by playing on a swing . Grown adults actually did this .

Absolutely disgusting behaviour alright. But I'm presuming it occurred pre-GFA?
In which case, there were many other disgusting acts committed by all sides.

I'm not trying to belittle your experiences mate, but members of your own community were doing wrong also.

Its no use complaining about just one side IMO.

At the end of the day Poots comments and mindset are a product of the countrys abnormal political situation .

Agree.

Only fundamnetal change in the countrys political structures are ever likely to change it . Therefore we'll just have to put up with it and persevere in the face of the inevitable hostility

I would suggest a fundamental change in the attitudes of both communities.

#15

kreuzberger wrote: »

by doing what ? picketting catholic primary schools schools and funeral services or kicking someone to death at a bonfire ? or maybe just banging a drum outisde someones chapel ?

what particular aspect of this culture do you think we should adopt ?

Come on now, thats hardly fair. Thats like equating your community with the murder of children or forcing innocent men to become suicide bombers.

kreuzberger

#15 wrote: »

Come on now, thats hardly fair. Thats like equating your community with the murder of children or forcing innocent men to become suicide bombers.

it may sound unfair but if you can physically point me to one aspect of loyalist cultural activity that might broaden my mind Ill consider giving it a try . Is there anything you can suggest ?

kreuzberger

#15 wrote: »

Agree. But that ethos is in conflict with unionism. So why are people complaining if unionists do not like the sport?

possinbly because theyre annoyed at the state of society in general in which a national ethos comes into direct conflict with a British ethos which views an Irish national ethos as a threat to the political status quo ie the states legitimacy being questioned . I didnt claim the complaints were actually logically thought out , i pointed to the case that such a conflict is inevitable in a scenario of a partitioned Ireland , an abnormal political situation

The GAA were just as bad with their ban on foreign games, etc.

Both sides commited wrong. Theres no point in criticising just one side.

the GAA bans on foreign games extended only to GAA players . They didnt disrupt other sports and interfere with the activity of non members . GAA also had a yearly congress in which the membership of the organisation could freely opt to overturn the ban on themselves playing foreign sports . The reason for the ban on foreign games was quite logical , in a society in which a foreign governemnt in concert with native political and religious instituions had come together and suceeded in eradicating the Irish language and many outward expressions of the national culture and psyche in the space of only a few decades , from the 1840s to the 1880s . Both the catholic church and the Irish nationalist political class such as Daniel OConnell were as guilty as anyone else for this , indeed were instrumental in it by deriding irish ways and language as backward while effectively beating the Irish language and the old ways and customs out of the kids and silencing their parents by reading their names out at the pulpit for being backward and disobeying the church .

In truth it was protestant academics who were to the fore in attempts to not only preserve but revive them . The GAA was part of this revival movement .
Ireland faced cultural genocide and the GAA was launched in response to that . The ban was integral to that position of reversing the horrendous cultural damage inflicted on the country by conserving native culture in the face of threats to its existence by much more powerful political , economic and cultural forces .

Absolutely disgusting behaviour alright. But I'm presuming it occurred pre-GFA?
In which case, there were many other disgusting acts committed by all sides.

I'm not trying to belittle your experiences mate, but members of your own community were doing wrong also.

Its no use complaining about just one side IMO.

Im not just complaining about one side . The issue however is edwin poots opposition to the GAA and his partys track record in this regard , which is lengthy , bitter and substantial . But its not just edwin poots fault . He ws led to believe northern nationalists had opted to accept the legitimacy of the northern state , indeed the norths political leaders signed a treaty to that effect . He is then confronted with a tradition and ethos which opts to show outward allegiance to a 32 county republic as opposed to British institutions in Ireland as opposed to the state which he seeks to secure . An ethos which just happens to be the biggest sporting organisation in the north . This presents him with a political difficulty , forcing him as someone who demands the staus quo is upheld to attack that ethos . The only manner in which this situation can be resolved is either within a united political entity of all 32 counties or by forcing the GAA to abandon its core ethos , that of an Irish nation . Effectively sterilising it . Its highly unlikely GAA stalwarts and even caual supporters in the north will abandon notions of nationhood on the basis of edwin poots demands . I dont believe Gerry Adams Martin McGuinness and the pope combined could manage that one .
Therefore an abnormal political situation will continue to produce conflict on one level or another .

I would suggest a fundamental change in the attitudes of both communities

sadly i would suggest that in a partitioned society normal politics will only function on the surface and paper over the cracks until the next crises arrives . In such a scenario different ethos' will continually and inevitably come into confrontation due to the abnormality of the situation . while the gfa has managed to cobble together an agreement between professional politicians it has had the added effect of reinforcing tribalism on both sides . Whilst institutionalised sectarianism thrives within mainstream politics abnormality will continue . To change that requires fundamental change which the existing constitutional arrangements cannot deliver , and indeed actively prevent .

Tommy T

kreuzberger wrote: »

by doing what ? picketting catholic primary schools schools and funeral services or kicking someone to death at a bonfire ? or maybe just banging a drum outisde someones chapel ?

what particular aspect of this culture do you think we should adopt ?

We embrcae many aspects of British culture.. We watch thier TV stations, are obsessed by their 'Celebs', travel in our thousands every weekend to watch their football, buy their newspapers(don't be fooled by the "Irish" Daily Mail, Sun etc...

In other words Unionists are normal human beings like the rest of us...

RedPlanet

If Donegal were playing than it's only right that the Irish National Anthem was played. Just like when England played in Croke Park and we played GSTQ for them.
If anything, the minister should question why GSTQ wasn't also played on the night, or before every GAA match in the Six Counties.
I think you'll find the answer to that, is that practically nobody in attendence identifies with GSTQ as part of their ethos.

Perhaps the minister should wonder how he can make GSTQ or a Northern Ireland equivalent, more inclusive so people of the other dispensation can identify with it.

Fratton Fred

RedPlanet wrote: »

Perhaps the minister should wonder how he can make GSTQ or a Northern Ireland equivalent, more inclusive so people of the other dispensation can identify with it.

good point

ejmaztec

One of the local amateur historians in Kerry maintains that, were the Irish monarchy to be re-introduced, then Mrs Windsor would be eligible to sit on the Irish, as well as the English throne. I've yet to find the proof that what he's said is correct, but it would be interesting if it were. Unfortunately, this fellah has been a bit liberal with the truth in the past where history's involved.:)

Lux23

kreuzberger wrote: »

by doing what ? picketting catholic primary schools schools and funeral services or kicking someone to death at a bonfire ? or maybe just banging a drum outisde someones chapel ?

what particular aspect of this culture do you think we should adopt ?

And I suppose the nationalists are completely innocent. They didn't tear people limb from limb, kidnap and kill women who happened to help dying soldiers on their doorstep, cut of the hair and pour paint over girls who dated protestants.

We have to meet them halfway and maybe if you opened your mind a little you may see that they are exactly the same as us. At the moment from your posts I can see you are incredibly hostile towards them and seem to think they have no right to a voice.

FTA69

#15 wrote: »

But they can hardly complain when unionists want no part of it, as the flag and the anthem of this country are (unfortunately) seen as symbols of militant republicanism by unionists.

Probably because they are symbols of militant Republicanism. The Tricolour was always a Republican flag, invented by the Young Irelanders. The anthem is called the "Soldier's Song" in all fairness.

FTA69

Lux23 wrote: »

And I suppose the nationalists are completely innocent. They didn't tear people limb from limb, kidnap and kill women who happened to help dying soldiers on their doorstep, cut of the hair and pour paint over girls who dated protestants.

First of all the tarring and feathering happened to women who dated soldiers, not Protestants. That having been said I accept your point, there was a lot of pain, death and agony doled out by Nationalists as well. However, the inherent bigotry of Loyalism has no real equivalent within Irish nationalism.

Lux23

FTA69 wrote: »

First of all the tarring and feathering happened to women who dated soldiers, not Protestants. That having been said I accept your point, there was a lot of pain, death and agony doled out by Nationalists as well. However, the inherent bigotry of Loyalism has no real equivalent within Irish nationalism.

I disagree. I remember as a teen hearing people using the word black as in protestant and I asked another 14 year old girl what that meant. She said quite calmly it refers to the colour of their heart and not their skin, this was said in front of adults and she wasn't admonished for it. So I think bigotry plays a huge part in both sides.

I do remember a story in 1995 of a girl who was dating a protestant who wasn't a soldier and she got that special treatment from some local provo yobs. The photo was on the front of a number of newspapers.

It was actually 1997, I do remember when I read it in the Irish Indpendent it just said she was dating a protestant, makes no mention here.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19970228/ai_n14098303

RedPlanet

A good friend of mine's dad is a protestant.
He married a catholic (they're ma) and they used to live in Co. Down somewhere and when the troubles kicked off, well their protestant neighbors burnt them out!
They ended up settling in West Belfast where they went from over crowded house to overcrowded house. Finally SQUATTED a newly built house in Poleglass where they remain today.
The dad's got King Billy tattos on his arms yet never a nasty word was said to him by his catholic neighbors.
His sons all grew up good republicans too.

Lux23

RedPlanet wrote: »

A good friend of mine's dad is a protestant.
He married a catholic (they're ma) and they used to live in Co. Down somewhere and when the troubles kicked off, well their protestant neighbors burnt them out!
They ended up settling in West Belfast where they went from over crowded house to overcrowded house. Finally SQUATTED a newly built house in Poleglass where they remain today.
The dad's got King Billy tattos on his arms yet never a nasty word was said to him by his catholic neighbors.
His sons all grew up good republicans too.

The same thing happened to Protestants in the Bogside but as usual our history books like to gloss over that fact. :rolleyes: Although in fairness it wasn't as common but 12,000 of them left the area around the time the trouble kicked off so they must have had some fears.

RedPlanet

Lux23 wrote: »

The same thing happened to Protestants in the Bogside but as usual our history books like to gloss over that fact. :rolleyes:

Oh right!
Sure those poor Protestants were getting all burnt out of their homes by those Catholic gangs :rolleyes: