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Bus Lanes - obstacle to meeting kyoto?
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You got sick of the bus drivers following procedure?
Ever consider that even bus drivers need the occasional day off?
Its not the drivers Id blame but managment for not having enough of them. Like i said, shops are open on a Sunday for a good 6/7 years now, it doesnt take 6/7 years to train new drivers. They've had plenty of time to sort this out ( indeed 2 elections have happened in the meantime ) yet still the problem stands.
No the blame lies with Cullen, Dempsey, et al. Bunglers the two of them. Cullen will fall in the Cowen reshuffle, Dempsey will continue to bungle but I hope for all our sakes its not at Transport.0 -
I would argue you have it the wrong way round.
I would imagine that Dublin Bus do not run a frequent service on Sundays because there is less demand, not because there is less availability of drivers.
Have you ever gone into town on a Sunday recently? Like in the last 5 years? Its second only to Saturday as the busiest shopping day of the week. Fair enough theres not as many ppl working ( except those slogging it out in the shops ) but that Sunday timetable is from the 1990's when all shops were closed and town was fairly dead on Sundays. Now its packed and Dublin Bus have yet to move with the times. Like its 2008, get with the programme:eek:0 -
I imagine it's a traditional mindset. Sunday is a massively busy day for people now.I would imagine that Dublin Bus do not run a frequent service on Sundays because there is less demand, not because there is less availability of drivers.
Dublin Bus seems to be caught in the old mindset that Sunday is for pottering down to mass, then off to the local for one or two while the missus stayed at home and cooked the roast.
So there have always been little or no Sunday services. Because we've come to expect little or no Sunday service from DB, there's consequently no demand. If I'm going anywhere on a Sunday, the very last thing I think of is to take the bus. I don't even bother looking at the timetable. If I'm in the city centre, I'll grab a taxi.0 -
I don't live in Dublin. Haven't done so in coming up on 7 years now.Have you ever gone into town on a Sunday recently? Like in the last 5 years?
At least we're agreed then that the timetable is from when there was no demand. I'll accept that the timetable may be out of synch with 'the programme' that I apparently need to get with, but the programme dates from when there was no demand.but that Sunday timetable is from the 1990's when all shops were closed and town was fairly dead on Sundays.
Getting the timetable 'modernised' shouldn't be a problem. If the demand for the service is there, then getting the drivers shouldn't be a problem....unless the union(s) are making ridiculous demands.0 -
Animal waste is actually the biggest source of greenhouse gases here. There is a lot of potential for Ireland to utilise animal waste and significantly reduce your emission.
Public transportation is important but in this country it will take a long time for anything to be formalised, and then a lot more time to be impletemented. I do doubt how many Irish would give up cars when then can, before a perfect transportation system is built in this country.0 -
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Well, yes, but there is still a shortage of drivers.I would imagine that Dublin Bus do not run a frequent service on Sundays because there is less demand, not because there is less availability of drivers.
That's curious logic; it's management's fault because people don't want to drive buses for a living? They've been crying out for drivers for years.Its not the drivers Id blame but managment for not having enough of them.
There are approximately 41% fewer trams on the red Luas line on Sundays than there are on weekdays. Now, I've just had a look at timetables for 6 of the bus routes that RATM was referring to; 25, 25A, 66, 66A, 67 and 67A. There are approximately 43% fewer services on Sundays than there are on weekdays. In other words, Veolia seem to be distributing their services in a very similar fashion to Dublin Bus.If they persist in that attitude, they'll fail to promote public transport because people will be forced to buy cars for the times the bus service is rubbish and then use them when the bus service is good. Look at the Luas - it manages a reasonable off-peak service so the trains, especially on the red line, are still busy.0 -
There are approximately 41% fewer trams on the red Luas line on Sundays than there are on weekdays. Now, I've just had a look at timetables for 6 of the bus routes that RATM was referring to; 25, 25A, 66, 66A, 67 and 67A. There are approximately 43% fewer services on Sundays than there are on weekdays. In other words, Veolia seem to be distributing their services in a very similar fashion to Dublin Bus.
On the other hand, the Luas on Sundays runs at 7 - 8 minute intervals. The vaunted 46a runs at 12 - 15 minute intervals which is still respectable but most of the other routes in Dublin aren't that good.
I'm sure it won't be long for a bus driver to come on here saying the buses are empty but that's exactly why they're empty - if there won't be a bus for 20 - 30 minutes, I'l take a taxi, drive myself or just not leave home, there's no point. The Luas proves that a frequent, reliable system attracts people to public transport.0 -
You really haven't been in Ireland in a while, have you?
What can I say...I live in a country where (most) things work, especially public transport...where Sunday is still a day of rest, where CO2 emissions are dropping, and where Kyoto targets should be met without too much more work, apparently.
Its obviously clouded my judgement.0 -
From about 12 - 5.30pm. Otherwise they run every 10 or 15 minutes.On the other hand, the Luas on Sundays runs at 7 - 8 minute intervals.
Over the period 12pm - 5.30pm on Sundays, there is a 46A (on average) every 11 minutes in both directions. Considering that most people can use more than one bus route to complete their journey, I would say that in this particular case, the frequency of the buses is not far off that of the Luas. The major problem with buses is of course the fact they are heavily influenced by the traffic and, as has already been pointed out, Sunday is anything but a "day of rest" in Dublin.The vaunted 46a runs at 12 - 15 minute intervals which is still respectable but most of the other routes in Dublin aren't that good.
I use buses fairly often at the weekends and yes, they are quite often fairly empty.I'm sure it won't be long for a bus driver to come on here saying the buses are empty...
This may be the case for you, but not for everyone. Suppose I stand on Lucan Road in Chapelizod between the hours of 12pm and 5.30pm on a Sunday afternoon; a bus (of one of the 6 routes I mentioned above) will pass me by (on average) every 8 minutes in both directions....but that's exactly why they're empty- if there won't be a bus for 20 - 30 minutes, I'l take a taxi, drive myself or just not leave home, there's no point.
How does it prove this?The Luas proves that a frequent, reliable system attracts people to public transport.
I have used the Luas Red Line on a number of occassions and to be honest, at this stage I avoid it at all costs, because it's slow (I can cycle faster than the damn thing) and overcrowded; I'd sooner get a bus (cheaper too).0 -
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What can I say...I live in a country where (most) things work, especially public transport...where Sunday is still a day of rest, where CO2 emissions are dropping, and where Kyoto targets should be met without too much more work, apparently.
Its obviously clouded my judgement.
Bonkey, you're dead right, the Swiss know how to run public transport for sure. I love the way they integrate the postal service with bus services in the rural areas of the Swiss Alps -considering both buses and post vans are doing the same routes it makes total sense, both economically and environmentally.0 -
Well, yes, but there is still a shortage of drivers.
That's curious logic; it's management's fault because people don't want to drive buses for a living? They've been crying out for drivers for years.
There are approximately 41% fewer trams on the red Luas line on Sundays than there are on weekdays. Now, I've just had a look at timetables for 6 of the bus routes that RATM was referring to; 25, 25A, 66, 66A, 67 and 67A. There are approximately 43% fewer services on Sundays than there are on weekdays. In other words, Veolia seem to be distributing their services in a very similar fashion to Dublin Bus.
I think its a bit unfair to compare LUAS & DB simply because LUAS only has to ply 2 routes but DB over a hundred. Also a tram holds over 250 whilst a bus can only do 95 so the capacities aren't the same. Either way Ive never had any complaints about LUAS on Sundays, if I dont have the moped with me I normally get one to Hueston and walk 15 minutes to Islandbridge, this for me has proved consistently quicker than waiting around for DB to drop me nearer my door on a Sunday ( especially after 5pm )
The drivers they are "crying out for" can get over 700 spots a wk if they do a little OT- thats good cash for a job that doesn't require any long learned skill and there's no lack of immigrants in this country who would love that type of cash, it beats driving a taxi and you have the benefits of holiday pay, pensions, sick pay, subsidized food, sports club, etc. What they are recruiting are merely replacements for retirees, of which DB has many over the last few yrs.
The prob with DB is not always a lack of drivers but a lack of buses. 1050 buses serve 140m journeys p.a. and its been years since this has been added to. Ask anyone who lives out in the like of Parkwest and other sprawling suburbs how long it took DB to get a route set up, years in some cases due to lack of buses to ply the routes. Case in point being the 151, the bus lane was painted on the road for 15 months before any bus actually ran down it even though with dozens of factories operating on the Nangor Rd it was obvious a service was needed.
As far as I know the unions are pushing for the new buses, the politicians pretend they are but are actually refusing to till the unions agree to some new work practices. And who suffers? The stressed out commuter. Neither the unions or the DOT could give a dam about the commuter, they only care about winning their own battles and protecting their own vested interests.
And its not until these two groups can reach agreement and give Dublin the transport system it deserves that ppl will even consider leaving their cars, in which case the major loser in all this is the environment which ultimately means we all lose.0 -
The drivers they are "crying out for" can get over 700 spots a wk if they do a little OT- thats good cash for a job that doesn't require any long learned skill and there's no lack of immigrants in this country who would love that type of cash, it beats driving a taxi and you have the benefits of holiday pay, pensions, sick pay, subsidized food, sports club, etc. What they are recruiting are merely replacements for retirees, of which DB has many over the last few yrs.
This is a terrible assumption to make about an industry you obviously don't work in. There's no lack of IRISH people who would love to drive buses, but they cannot survive on that kind of salary (mortgage, kids, etc.) and many of those who tried ran out of the bus industry after the rotten hours and treatment they found there. Immigrants will do the work because the salary is three times what they could expect back home, but they all live in hope of returning home one day. For Irish workers, THIS is home.
I worked for a good few different bus operators, and I found the hours disgracefully long, the pay bad, the conditions generally intolerable. Dublin Bus were probably the best in terms of a pension, security, etc. but of all the two dozen or so trainees who came through the school with me, some very genuine, decent chaps among them, every single one left after about two years, because they were treated badly by indifferent inspectors and management. There is no incentive in Dublin Bus, or any bus operator, for customer orientated employees. The unions are not interested in members who see the problems and suggest changes for the better. Apple carts, etc.
I don't understand why there is a begrudging element in this country who wish to see certain sectors of jobs farmed out to the lowest common denominator, and yet complain when standards in those same industries go down drastically. The thread is about bus lanes and Kyoto. One of the main reasons people refrain from using public transport, is because it is not efficient enough, and that has a lot to do with demotivated staff. None of those people sitting in commuter traffic jams every morning want to drive buses, because they know it's a rotten job, with rotten pay, and rotten conditions. It's the bargain basement of jobs, a cost-heavy industry, and there is no initiative to improve it any time soon.0 -
This is a terrible assumption to make about an industry you obviously don't work in. There's no lack of IRISH people who would love to drive buses, but they cannot survive on that kind of salary (mortgage, kids, etc.) and many of those who tried ran out of the bus industry after the rotten hours and treatment they found there. Immigrants will do the work because the salary is three times what they could expect back home, but they all live in hope of returning home one day. For Irish workers, THIS is home.
I worked for a good few different bus operators, and I found the hours disgracefully long, the pay bad, the conditions generally intolerable. Dublin Bus were probably the best in terms of a pension, security, etc. but of all the two dozen or so trainees who came through the school with me, some very genuine, decent chaps among them, every single one left after about two years, because they were treated badly by indifferent inspectors and management. There is no incentive in Dublin Bus, or any bus operator, for customer orientated employees. The unions are not interested in members who see the problems and suggest changes for the better. Apple carts, etc.
I don't understand why there is a begrudging element in this country who wish to see certain sectors of jobs farmed out to the lowest common denominator, and yet complain when standards in those same industries go down drastically. The thread is about bus lanes and Kyoto. One of the main reasons people refrain from using public transport, is because it is not efficient enough, and that has a lot to do with demotivated staff. None of those people sitting in commuter traffic jams every morning want to drive buses, because they know it's a rotten job, with rotten pay, and rotten conditions. It's the bargain basement of jobs, a cost-heavy industry, and there is no initiative to improve it any time soon.
When Dublin Bus had 100% Irish drivers the standards weren't particulary great. Now that its a mix it still isnt particulary great.
I couldnt care less if my driver has black, yellow, red or even purple skin, I'll still treat them all the same and to insinuate that we are going to get better service by having Irish drivers is well wide of the mark, management has knocked any level of customer service out of them years ago.
Its quite wrong to assume all immigrants want to return home. This might be true of some eastern Europeans but ask Nigerians what intentions they have and you'll get a very different story. Same goes for many Chinese, if they'd intended going home why bother setting up businesses here?
And theres nothing wrong with DB wages- I cashed their cheques for many a year working in pubs and they did quite alright, especially those older drivers with experience. In fact many conductors paid cash for their houses back in the 1980's, if you know what I mean.0 -
You are making arguments on something I didn't say. I didn't make race an issue. Whoever works on the buses should get the same decent wage, whether they are Irish or whatever. Everyone should get a wage commensurate with a reasonable standard of living in IRELAND. There were always, and will always be Irish staff who take far more than they contribute. I'm not interested in them, other than that they should not be encouraged. I AM interested in all the GOOD, committed staff who leave the job year after year. There's something wrong with their incentive policies when that happens.
Don't start talking about bus conductors thirty years ago, for God's sake. You might as well talk about taxi drivers thirty years ago who had their industry sewn up. We are in the twenty-first century now. Base your arguments on today's factors and conditions. Don't try to tell me a married man with two or three kids should be surviving on €700 a week, stuck on shift work AND overtime for the rest of his life. There are inspectors in there, donkey's years in the job, promoted as far as they can go, and STILL stuck on shift work as they approach retirement age.
Transport in this country, be it buses, trams, taxis, is NOT a good industry to work in, by ANY stretch of the imagination. While there are many, many good, committed employees in all sectors, the industry does NOTHING to incentivise them. And standards in general, despite the best efforts of some, are pitifully low. Why is that?0 -
Listen arguments about inspectors doing shift work are futile- they are working in the service industry and they knew that that involves buses running from the early hours right round to the Nitelink services, if they dont like the hours why even take a driver or inspector job in the first place?
You could say older inspectors should only do day work and no weekends but at the end of the day thats only going to get the backs up of their younger colleagues ( who often have young children ) and create all kinds of divisions.Staffing problems will always occur and you cant keep all the people happy all the time.....
Might I suggest that the bus game over the last few years has become something more suited to younger ppl, its no longer the job for life that ppl craved and even if it were not many would want to embark on a 45 yr career in bus driving these days. It was the same for me, I worked in pubs for 10 years and then one day I realised that 2am finishes and working every weekend wasn't for me so I got out and changed career. I'd imagine the same is true of some drivers, who after a few years of slogging it out on shifts then decide that a more normal job would be better, for the sake of their family life, etc. The fact that I could change career is perhaps a mark of the Celtic Tiger- only 15 years ago if you had a job you certainly wouldn't contemplate leaving it, thus ppl did jobs for life. Thats no longer the case, nowadays some ppl change careers every 10 years.
As regarding incentives for the better employees Im not quite sure how that would work in a fair and equitable manner?
Finally I agree with you, the transport industry does indeed treat employees with disdain. ( Although I still say 700 spots is a good wage- I know ppl with PhD's who have slogged it out for 10 years to find themselves on similar money whereas training to become a driver takes nowhere near the same time scale ). But it still doesnt quite settle the point of why DB operates to a poor standard....many factors are at play here with staff relations being only one of them...0 -
Oh I know, but it wasn't me who first made the comparison.I think its a bit unfair to compare LUAS & DB simply because LUAS only has to ply 2 routes but DB over a hundred.
I think this is the point I was trying to make; that different modes of transport will suit different people. You go for the LUAS over the Bus, I'm the opposite.Either way Ive never had any complaints about LUAS on Sundays, if I dont have the moped with me I normally get one to Hueston and walk 15 minutes to Islandbridge, this for me has proved consistently quicker than waiting around for DB to drop me nearer my door on a Sunday ( especially after 5pm )
Would you do it? Do you know anyone who would? I know I wouldn't.The drivers they are "crying out for" can get over 700 spots a wk if they do a little OT- thats good cash for a job that doesn't require any long learned skill...
Are there?...and there's no lack of immigrants in this country who would love that type of cash...
The two go hand-in-hand; no point having loads of buses if you've got no one to drive them.The prob with DB is not always a lack of drivers but a lack of buses.
There's a large number of people in the greater Dublin area who will never leave their cars in favour of a bus no matter how good the service gets.And its not until these two groups can reach agreement and give Dublin the transport system it deserves that ppl will even consider leaving their cars...
It has a lot to do with heavy traffic too.One of the main reasons people refrain from using public transport, is because it is not efficient enough, and that has a lot to do with demotivated staff.
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.When Dublin Bus had 100% Irish drivers the standards weren't particulary great. Now that its a mix it still isnt particulary great.
I don't think anyone has implied any such thing....to insinuate that we are going to get better service by having Irish drivers is well wide of the mark...
€700 per week works out at €36,400 per year; that's above the average industrial wage of €33,000 and that doesn't include any bonuses or benefits.Don't try to tell me a married man with two or three kids should be surviving on €700 a week, stuck on shift work AND overtime for the rest of his life.
You MUST be joking? There’s A LOT of money to be made driving taxis. If that was not the case, then why would so many people be doing it?Transport in this country, be it buses, trams, taxis, is NOT a good industry to work in, by ANY stretch of the imagination.
How many "young people" do you know who would want to drive a bus?Might I suggest that the bus game over the last few years has become something more suited to younger ppl...0 -
You MUST be joking? There’s A LOT of money to be made driving taxis. If that was not the case, then why would so many people be doing it?
Oh, here we go again...
Why do people insist on making sweeping generalisations on subjects they obviously know nothing about, inflaming other people, when they come across as otherwise reasonably intelligent people? I earned €450 this week in my taxi, €400 the week before. My mortgage payment is due next weekend, €1,200.
This is the politics forum, and this is a thread about how our transport policies sit with Kyoto, so I won't follow that argument. It's been done to death over on the Commuting and Transport forum. Give opinions or stick to facts, please.0
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