Bus Lanes - obstacle to meeting kyoto?

Tea drinker

Giving the evidence everyday that people are sitting in cars for ages while practically no buses pass by in their dedicated lane, surely there is an argument against these lanes? I just heard on the radio that some guy is sitting in traffic on the blackrock road (new bus lane) and 2 buses passed by in an hour! Hard to believe that but...
How much pollutants are released by cars sitting for hours not moving (because of bus lanes)
Also there is a substantial maintenance overhead for having miles of underused roadway versus the well utilised roadway for mixed use. I don't know how much the bus companies contribute to this, or if they have paid anything to have a dedicated lane available.

The economics of bus lanes makes no sense to me right now. I think there would be a substantial jump in efficiency if they were open to cars for peak hours, or even a portion of peak hours. Less money spent on petrol, car maintenance more productive hours available to people and employers, faster delivery times, less time to get to meetings etc.

If we had a nice integrated public transport system we could argue that a well populated bus lane feeding into that would be useful - but we don't.

djpbarry

Tea drinker wrote: »

The economics of bus lanes makes no sense to me right now. I think there would be a substantial jump in efficiency if they were open to cars for peak hours, or even a portion of peak hours.

You quite clearly have not taken into consideration the people who use the bus in that assessment. If bus lanes were open to all traffic during peak hours, then bus journey times would be substantially increased. Not to mention a large number of people who currently use the bus may revert to using their cars, creating further congestion.

seamus

If the bus lanes were opened at peak times to cars, it would only serve to delay the busses. Traffic will always swell to fill any extra capacity, particularly at peak times. If the busses are making no better progress than cars, many people will switch back to their cars (why pay to sit in traffic in a smelly, hot public bus when you can do the same in your private vehicle?), cars continue to make no progress and pollutants go up.

It's a key feature of bus lanes that they're not jam-packed with busses. By their nature, they allow busses to flow freely and so should appear "empty" for much of the time. Unused roadway also has a lower maintenance cost. Bus lanes would cost more if they were open to the public.

Many new roads now also come with bus lanes put into them from the start to allow for future capacity requirements and future bus routes, even if there are no busses on them. This actually makes perfect sense. The cost of a piece of idle bus lane is far lower than the cost down the road (in terms of money and disruption) of adding a bus lane to a road.

I would support initiatives which increased usage of the bus lanes without causing them to become packed. Car pooling is the most obvious - that anyone carrying at least two other adult passengers can use the bus lane.

DadaKopf

Simple fact is, if those lanes weren't there, they'd be clogged up with traffic anyway. Bizarrely, the whole reason for introducing QBCs was to take buses out of the traffic jams. That way, the routes could operate efficiently. Without QBCs, buses would be stuck in traffic like any other vehicle.

And how on earth are QBCs contributing to carbon emissions? Firstly, carbon emissions per head plummet when travelling by bus (or other public transport). Secondly, QBCs are an incentive for people to get out of their cars.

Sure, the system needs to improve, but removing QBCs is stupid.

BrianD

Tea drinker wrote: »

Giving the evidence everyday that people are sitting in cars for ages while practically no buses pass by in their dedicated lane, surely there is an argument against these lanes? I just heard on the radio that some guy is sitting in traffic on the blackrock road (new bus lane) and 2 buses passed by in an hour! Hard to believe that but...
How much pollutants are released by cars sitting for hours not moving (because of bus lanes)
Also there is a substantial maintenance overhead for having miles of underused roadway versus the well utilised roadway for mixed use. I don't know how much the bus companies contribute to this, or if they have paid anything to have a dedicated lane available.

The economics of bus lanes makes no sense to me right now. I think there would be a substantial jump in efficiency if they were open to cars for peak hours, or even a portion of peak hours. Less money spent on petrol, car maintenance more productive hours available to people and employers, faster delivery times, less time to get to meetings etc.

If we had a nice integrated public transport system we could argue that a well populated bus lane feeding into that would be useful - but we don't.

I don't think I've come accross so much much rubbish in a long time.

a) Traffic situation in Dublin (for example) is not caused by bus lanes nor will it change if they were removed. It is caused by bad planning that has led to unsustainable developments and a huge increase in car usage. Most of the cars stuck in traffic have already travelled long distances already contributing to our emmissions.

b) It has already been proved that the addition of QBC's have added to the efficiency of the routes that the work on. The N11 corridor how carries more people then it did prior to the addition of the QBC.

c) Dublin Bus has just over 1,000 buses in their fleet spread over their routes. Exactly how many buses did the chap in Blackrock expect to see?

d) Most bus lanes do have mixed use as they are only operated for part of the day or, in the past, would have been a hard shoulder. Are you calling for all hard shoulders to be opened to traffic as there is probabaly more 'underused' hard shoulders in Dublin than bus lanes.

the economics of bus lanes make perfect sense and given the sprawl created by bad and corrupt planning, will continue to make economic sense and should be expanded.

dublincityvic

Was in the states for a few months.. carpool lanes seem to work well over there.. Opening the bus lanes for vehicles with two or more passengers would encourage neighbours and friends to share lifts to work, decreasing the volume of traffic on our roads at peak times. The amount of traffic i pass by everyday with only one person in the car is a joke..what are your opinions on this system?

Zombrex

Tea drinker wrote: »

The economics of bus lanes makes no sense to me right now. I think there would be a substantial jump in efficiency if they were open to cars for peak hours, or even a portion of peak hours.

I see little reason to believe that.

Traffic delays are caused by bottlenecks, such as traffic lights, crashed cars, T-junctions etc. They aren't really caused by the lack of 2 lanes on roads. In fact the merging of 2 lanes to one lane is in itself a bottleneck.

So as someone else said, allowing cars on the bus lanes would imply mean the buses are delayed.

markpb

dublincityvic wrote: »

Was in the states for a few months.. carpool lanes seem to work well over there.. Opening the bus lanes for vehicles with two or more passengers would encourage neighbours and friends to share lifts to work, decreasing the volume of traffic on our roads at peak times. The amount of traffic i pass by everyday with only one person in the car is a joke..what are your opinions on this system?

A lot of states in the US are reconsidering their use of car pool lanes because there's no evidence that people _who wouldn't otherwise_ share are car are pooling because of the lane. linky LA county are considering moving from a carpool only to tolled express lanes.

Based on our review of available data, we conclude that the performance of HOV lanes is mixed... Regional data indicate that HOV lanes do induce people to carpool, but the statewide impact on carpooling is unknown due to lack of data.

Considering how poorly our bus lanes are enforced at present, car pool lanes would be a complete joke with every tom, dick and harry in them. The original post was a joke anyway - the idea that bus lanes worsen congestion is a myth propagated by a handful of selfish car drivers who haven't a clue how traffic systems work. I seriously doubt the guy on the radio only saw two buses but even so, they could be carrying up to 200 people. Good idea to add 200 more cars to the road, that'll help

Saruman

Tea drinker wrote: »

I just heard on the radio that some guy is sitting in traffic on the blackrock road (new bus lane) and 2 buses passed by in an hour! Hard to believe that but...

Bet that guy was sitting there during that hour wishing he had taken the bus then

egan007

Buslanes are a great idea. However they are a waste of money of there is no busses in them. It's not the lane that is the problem. There should be a bus at every stop every 5 minutes.

Opening more lanes up to cars only achieves 2 things.
1) Makes 2 queues half the length of the original
2) Encourages more traffic as there is a perception of more space.

The eventual result of this is that you end up with 2 queued both the length of the original

Saruman

I Agree... On any route that has a QBC all or most of the way then there should be a bus every 5 mins.
Also, there is no reason the Bus service could not be changed over to Biofuel as they are big dirty vehicles.

djpbarry

Saruman wrote: »

Bet that guy was sitting there during that hour wishing he had taken the bus then

Ahh, very good!

egan007 wrote: »

However they are a waste of money of there is no busses in them. It's not the lane that is the problem. There should be a bus at every stop every 5 minutes.

There are two major obstacles to this:

1. Lack of government funding in the past (although this may change this year, with record investment planned).
2. Lack of drivers - even if the size of the fleet was doubled, there wouldn't be enough drivers to drive them all. Nobody wants to drive buses.

egan007

djpbarry wrote: »

Ahh, very good!

There are two major obstacles to this:

1. Lack of government funding in the past (although this may change this year, with record investment planned).
2. Lack of drivers - even if the size of the fleet was doubled, there wouldn't be enough drivers to drive them all. Nobody wants to drive buses.

The obvious answer to this is to have competition, drivers may be more likely to work private.
Of course there's always the robots.....

Saruman

Killer robots behind the wheel of a bus.... sounds like a movie idea

Im not sure about people not wanting to drive a bus though.. They make some good money, much better in fact than your average graduate makes, plus unlike construction etc, its pretty much a job for life with excellent benefits. I was thinking about getting out of IT as Dublin Bus paid more.. then i got a higher paying job so i stayed in IT.

seamus

djpbarry wrote: »

[*]Lack of drivers - even if the size of the fleet was doubled, there wouldn't be enough drivers to drive them all. Nobody wants to drive buses.

You be surprised. Many people enjoy driving, and driving a bus is one of those manual jobs that doesn't require you to be out in the cold, does require some amount of skill/thought and lets you meet people. DB drivers also have the benefit of good benefits/perks, flexible hours (with overtime) and a pensionable job for life.

Those in later years would be particularly drawn to it.

dublincityvic

markpb wrote: »

Considering how poorly our bus lanes are enforced at present, car pool lanes would be a complete joke with every tom, dick and harry in them. The original post was a joke anyway -

Well it could'nt make the problem worse than it already is.. Increase the number of traffic corpse gardai enforcing the carpool and bus lane rule and fine Tom Dick and not forgetting Harry a ridiculous OTT fine and 4 penalty points so it won't be worth they're while in the bus lane..

Saruman

Traffic "Corpse" Gardai is right, sitting around like the dead.
Although some might try pretending to be a corpse then jump up with a speed gun and nab you

djpbarry

Saruman wrote: »

Also, there is no reason the Bus service could not be changed over to Biofuel as they are big dirty vehicles.

I believe that biofuel buses are in testing. It is planned to move to using a 5% biodiesel blend in current CIE vehicles and a 30% blend in new vehicles. In addition, I believe Dublin Bus will be leasing a prototype hybrid electric double-decker bus in 2008 on a trial basis.

egan007 wrote: »

The obvious answer to this is to have competition, drivers may be more likely to work private.

Not so sure about that - the Dublin Bus package isn't half bad.

seamus wrote: »

Many people enjoy driving, and driving a bus is one of those manual jobs that doesn't require you to be out in the cold, does require some amount of skill/thought and lets you meet people. DB drivers also have the benefit of good benefits/perks, flexible hours (with overtime) and a pensionable job for life.

I'm well aware of the benefits, but it seems young people in particular are not interested. Would anyone here want to drive a bus? I know I wouldn't; think of the sort of people you'd have to deal with every day. Think of some of the routes you'd have to drive.:eek:

DadaKopf

egan007 wrote: »

The obvious answer to this is to have competition, drivers may be more likely to work private.
Of course there's always the robots.....

This isn't the 'obvious answer' at all. The record of privatisation across Europe is very mixed, tending toward the negative. Both worker and passenger loses out. Work conditions deteriorate and pay declines as private operators forbid employees to join unions. Ticket prices increase and 'unprofitable' routes close; companies provide services because they are profitable, not because they are needed. Increasingly, citizens - worker-passengers - lose control of their services and lose quality of life. Meanwhile, transport company bosses and shareholders cream off the profit for themselves.

I'm not saying in all cases privatisation (or 'competition') is bad. I'm not saying in all cases public ownership is good. But privatisation is not necessarily good, and it hinges on strong government regulation and a supportive worker-citizen culture to make it work in everyone's interests. In collectivist societies with strong values of social solidarity and welfare/rights protection, it has worked better. I found the bus and tram system in Helsinki excellent even though the buses are run by Connex. In hyper-capitalist societies like the US or UK, privatisation hasn't worked well, workers' rights have declined, prices have risen, and societies have become car-dependent.

I'm not convinced that Ireland yet has the 'supportive culture' to make a widespread, public transport system that is privately owned work.

seamus

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm well aware of the benefits, but it seems young people in particular are not interested. Would anyone here want to drive a bus? I know I wouldn't; think of the sort of people you'd have to deal with every day. Think of some of the routes you'd have to drive.:eek:

Let me guess; You're a young male, came from a middle-class family, did fairly well in school, enjoyed a four-year stint college which mainly involved drinking and partying?

That's not an attack on you, but when you grow up in that environment, you find it hard to put yourself in the shoes of the guy who came from an abusive family, scraped his way through school and barely left with a leaving cert.

Saruman

djpbarry wrote: »

I'm well aware of the benefits, but it seems young people in particular are not interested. Would anyone here want to drive a bus? I know I wouldn't; think of the sort of people you'd have to deal with every day. Think of some of the routes you'd have to drive.:eek:

Yeah but young people want to do nothing and get paid for it
Im hardly old, im 28 and would have done it. Only thing that puts me off is the shift work, If i lived in Dublin it would be grand. I could make use of the free transport.

the_syco

The advantage of the QBC is that it can whiz by the traffic. If it didn't the people would just drive. During peak hours, when the bus is jammed with people, they take a lot of cars off the road.

And oh, for the people who think that privatizing the buses is a good idea: if this happened, any place that didn't get max capacity would either get less buses, or no buses. Many people don't see the need for a car to work, if they live in Dublin, as they can get the bus to work. Take away the bus, and you increase the amount of cars being driven to work.

With the abuse some drivers get by a few scumbags in Finglas, I doubt there'd be a private bus going there too often. Or they could just cancel it.

markpb

egan007 wrote: »

Buslanes are a great idea. However they are a waste of money of there is no busses in them. It's not the lane that is the problem. There should be a bus at every stop every 5 minutes.

If you see an empty bus lane on a main road, the reason is probably because of a jam at the start of the bus lane and not a lack of buses. Every morning all the major inbound junctions clog up and as people try to merge at the start of the lane, they get stuck and the buses can't get into the lane.

For example, Malahide QBC at Donneycarney and Swords Road QBC at Whitehall. Anyone sitting south of those junctions would swear there were no buses even though they're queueing waaaay back the other side. On more than one occasion I've sat in a convoy of over twenty buses waiting to get through Donneycarney.

djpbarry

seamus wrote: »

You're a young male

Yes.

seamus wrote: »

came from a middle-class family

No.

seamus wrote: »

did fairly well in school

Yes.

seamus wrote: »

enjoyed a four-year stint college which mainly involved drinking and partying?

I went to college and got my degree but I certainly did not enjoy it, no.

seamus wrote: »

That's not an attack on you

Yes it was and I did not appreciate it.

seamus

djpbarry wrote: »

Yes it was and I did not appreciate it.

It wasn't. I'm in that category and have plenty of friends in that category. But I also have plenty of mates in the "barely finished school" category and I see first-hand how sometimes people can't see the world from a different viewpoint and can't understand how other people would want to drive busses or work as gardeners.

djpbarry

seamus wrote: »

I'm in that category and have plenty of friends in that category. But I also have plenty of mates in the "barely finished school" category and I see first-hand how sometimes people can't see the world from a different viewpoint and can't understand how other people would want to drive busses or work as gardeners.

Fair enough.

I should probably point out that I worked for Dublin Bus for a few months in the summer of '96 (I think) - I would never go back.

Victor

Tea drinker wrote: »

How much pollutants are released by cars sitting for hours not moving (because of bus lanes)

The cars aren't moving because of choke points (for example where a road becomes 1 lane either way instead of 2 lanes either way), not because of the bus lane.

lostexpectation

how many buses do you need to pass by to justify the progress mad by the bus in the empty lane,I suspect its not many. i suspect its about half as many as the people sitting in cars expect.

there was interesting report recently about the major choke points in the city after that truck broke down blocking one, I wonder how those could be tackled.

OTK

Tea drinker wrote: »

I just heard on the radio that some guy is sitting in traffic on the blackrock road (new bus lane) and 2 buses passed by in an hour! Hard to believe that but...

Hard to believe because it's not true. 15 buses per hour use the Blackrock QBC in peak times. When you're in a traffic jam looking at a relatively empty bus lane while listening to the radio and making phone calls, it's easy to miss the buses going past and assume the worst.

The economics of bus lanes makes no sense to me right now.

Converting a car lane to a bus lane can increase the number of people who can use a road per hour. You can read the QBC monitoring reports at the DTO if you need to see the numbers for yourself. QBCs have been in use for 10 years now so it's well established.

I think there would be a substantial jump in efficiency if they were open to cars for peak hours, or even a portion of peak hours.

Although you might think that, less people would be able to use the road and public transport would lose passengers to cars with consequent environmental and congestion costs.

You are right that it is inefficient for people to queue in traffic. One solution would be to toll the road during peak hours to the point where the road is free flowing. Adding capacity to a road is unlikely to help us meet our Kyoto targets as it would induce people to drive rather than use public transport.

Tea drinker

markpb wrote: »

If you see an empty bus lane on a main road, the reason is probably because of a jam at the start of the bus lane and not a lack of buses. Every morning all the major inbound junctions clog up and as people try to merge at the start of the lane, they get stuck and the buses can't get into the lane.

For example, Malahide QBC at Donneycarney and Swords Road QBC at Whitehall. Anyone sitting south of those junctions would swear there were no buses even though they're queueing waaaay back the other side. On more than one occasion I've sat in a convoy of over twenty buses waiting to get through Donneycarney.

But this negates the points everyone else made that the buses "whiz by" all the cars! And this proves they are not fit for purpose - they simply don't work when they are most needed.I have no problems with a good transport system, we don't have that and people are being genuinely inconvenienced to support a monopoly, of the service and infrastrucure. In most situations people have no realistic alternative but to drive to work, and this should be facilitated. Like it or not, car drivers are the primary users of the roads, with even cyclists probably making better utilisation of the available infrastructure.
I disagree that doubling the lanes will double the congestion, it simply doesn't add up that 2 lanes are no faster than one, and to be honest where QBC are introduced the resulting slowdowns for everyone in the remaining lane are undeniable - obviously opening them up allows more traffic to flow. And what about the situation where traffic (including the buses) is backed up on the lead-in to a new QBC area. If the QBC didn't exist the (first) bottleneck for the bus would be removed or substantially reduced.
So yes they are adding to pollution and decreasing efficiency and quality of life of people who have paid substantially to use the road. This at a time when no joined up infrastructure is available to give people a decent alternative is far from in place. Why hobble ourselves until this is introduced?
Until cars can be priced off the roads (eliminate the competition - rather than compete on price/service) QBC are a waste of time and money.

djpbarry

Tea drinker wrote: »

people are being genuinely inconvenienced to support a monopolyv

Dublin Bus is not a monopoly - there is at least one (probably more) other urban private bus company operating in the city.

Tea drinker wrote: »

...with even cyclists probably making better utilisation of the available infrastructure.

Please...

What infrastructure is there available for cyclists apart from a smattering of “lanes” painted on the road?

Tea drinker wrote: »

I disagree that doubling the lanes will double the congestion, it simply doesn't add up that 2 lanes are no faster than one

Case in point: the Westlink Toll Bridge. Capacity was doubled - virtually no effect on traffic congestion.

Tea drinker wrote: »

This at a time when no joined up infrastructure is available to give people a decent alternative is far from in place.

Possibly because the bulk of funding for infrastructure goes into the road network (presumably to satisfy individuals such as yourself) rather than public transport.

SkepticOne

I think the QBCs are a great idea and there should be more of them. For environmental and financial reasons I don't drive a car. I live in the Stillorgan area of Dublin and the bus gets me into town in around 20-30 minutes along the QBC.

The suggestion by the OP that bus lanes should be open to cars at peak times makes no sense to me. It is surely at peak times that the bus lanes are most necessary! That is why on the normal bus lanes we allow traffic only on the weekends and evenings.

Looking at the bigger picture, we need to stop seeing traffic problems as problems facing the private car but rather as problems caused by the private car. There simply isn't the capacity on the streets for unlimited growth in private car usage. Further growth is only possible with the expansion of public transport.

A few years ago there were plans to open up the Dublin bus routes to competing bids. What happened to those? We need to bring an end to unions dictating how our transport system should be run.

Victor

Tea drinker wrote: »

I just heard on the radio that some guy is sitting in traffic on the blackrock road (new bus lane) and 2 buses passed by in an hour! Hard to believe that but...

And how many DARTs?

seamus wrote: »

I would support initiatives which increased usage of the bus lanes without causing them to become packed. Car pooling is the most obvious - that anyone carrying at least two other adult passengers can use the bus lane.

Car pooling merely cannibalises would be bus passengers. Its not a solution in Ireland.

egan007 wrote: »

Buslanes are a great idea. However they are a waste of money of there is no busses in them.

Fitting a bus lane to an existing road is very cheap. If you want to consider waste of money, look at the cost of cars the fuel they use and the accidents they cause.

It's not the lane that is the problem. There should be a bus at every stop every 5 minutes.

That isn't necessarily necessary or practical. Are you saying if only 10 buses an hour are required, then there shoul be no bus lane?

Saruman wrote: »

Also, there is no reason the Bus service could not be changed over to Biofuel as they are big dirty vehicles.

I'm not saying don't look at buses, but look at cars first.

egan007 wrote: »

The obvious answer to this is to have competition

This is a discussion on bus lanes. Competition needs to be on service (and cost), not infrastructure.

SkepticOne wrote: »

A few years ago there were plans to open up the Dublin bus routes to competing bids. What happened to those? We need to bring an end to unions dictating how our transport system should be run.

The delay is with the department of transport and the private operators. While the unions grumbled when Luas was given tot he private sector, they got on with life. Many Luas staff are SIPTU members.

Tea drinker wrote: »

But this negates the points everyone else made that the buses "whiz by" all the cars! And this proves they are not fit for purpose - they simply don't work when they are most needed.

Those points don't work, because the cars are left into what should be bus lanes.

I have no problems with a good transport system, we don't have that and people are being genuinely inconvenienced to support a monopoly, of the service and infrastrucure.

Can you expand your point here? What is a "monopoly of .... infeastructure"?

In most situations people have no realistic alternative but to drive to work, and this should be facilitated. Like it or not, car drivers are the primary users of the roads, with even cyclists probably making better utilisation of the available infrastructure.

700,000+ public transport journeys in Dublin every day, add cyclists, pedestrians and people who work from home. The car isn't the only option.

mickoneill30

How many taxis passed him by too in the bus lane while he was sitting in Blackrock?

How many emergency vehicles? Probably not many of those but if I ever get trapped in some accident I'ld like to think that the emergency services weren't sitting in traffic because somebody thought it was a good idea to get rid of bus lanes.

How many ministers too?
I think our politicians should be forced to use the same lanes as us. We might actually see them trying to fix the problem of Dublin traffic if they had to spend hours going nowhere like the rest of us.

markpb

Tea drinker wrote: »

But this negates the points everyone else made that the buses "whiz by" all the cars! And this proves they are not fit for purpose - they simply don't work when they are most needed.

Bad bus lanes does not mean bus lanes are bad. In the main, our bus lanes could be vastly improved by making a few small changes to the junctions. This is happening but very slowly.

Bee

DadaKopf wrote: »

Simple fact is, if those lanes weren't there, they'd be clogged up with traffic anyway. Bizarrely, the whole reason for introducing QBCs was to take buses out of the traffic jams. That way, the routes could operate efficiently. Without QBCs, buses would be stuck in traffic like any other vehicle.

And how on earth are QBCs contributing to carbon emissions? Firstly, carbon emissions per head plummet when travelling by bus (or other public transport). Secondly, QBCs are an incentive for people to get out of their cars.

Sure, the system needs to improve, but removing QBCs is stupid.

Bus pollution is a serious issue, I shudder to think what the air quality levels are on bus congested O'Connell St. So called acceptable levels areconstatly breached in College Green.

There is little valid research on bus pollution in Ireland but there is some good info from the UK

The National Environment Technology Centre in the UK has shown that a single diesel bus produces as much particulate pollution as 128 petrol cars, and NOx emissions equivalent to 39 cars.

Not one of the diesel buses in London, or elsewhere, carries anything like 100 car-driving passengers, and many operate way below capacity. Meanwhile, taxis often need to return empty from dropping a single passenger - the ultimate in waste - but are encouraged by permission to use bus lanes!

Scientists have found one of the most carcinogenic chemicals known to man (3-nitrobenzanthrone) in diesel bus exhausts when the engine is under load, i.e. when pulling away from any High Street bus stop.

The thing that contributes a lot of serious pollution from a diesel bus is its frequent stopping and starting at Bus stop. To move away the engine has to operate at full load thus producing increased pollution.

Bee

Victor wrote: »

The cars aren't moving because of choke points (for example where a road becomes 1 lane either way instead of 2 lanes either way), not because of the bus lane.

The traffic engineering is dreadful in Dublin, run by amateurs for amateurs.


Bus lanes in general are a waste

They increase journey times unnecessarily.

They turn dual carriageways into single track roads with no passing places forcing every vehicle to travel at the speed of the slowest.

They create traffic jams where there were previously none.

They create bottlenecks at the start of the bus lane, delaying buses as well as other traffic.

They create hazardous situations where vehicles wish to turn left and are lethal to cyclists

They enthuse some bus drivers to drive aggressively by encouraging them to think they have more right to be on the road than anyone else and cyclists suffer disproportionally.

They encourage bus drivers to drive at normal speed past queues of stationary traffic, often without sufficient regard to pedestrians mothers with prams etc , trying to cross between traffic that may be obscuring them from the bus driver's view.

They inspire traffic to divert onto other roads, often residential side roads.

They make it more difficult for pedestrians to cross the road by removing the natural gaps that appear in free flowing traffic.

They generate contempt for the law.

They divert police resources away from dealing with criminals.

They incite road rage.

They are usually counter-productive in terms of improving the bus service.

Tea drinker

djpbarry wrote: »

Dublin Bus is not a monopoly - there is at least one (probably more) other urban private bus company operating in the city.
Please...
.

Yes please!... there is SFA competition to Dublin Bus!

djpbarry wrote: »

What infrastructure is there available for cyclists apart from a smattering of “lanes” painted on the road? .

I didn't attempt to describe the infrastructure, you did, I merely said they make better use of the AVAILABLE infrastructure. They have a very small footprint and there is a serious amount of people cycling these days. Yes we should spend more here, public and private investment is needed for end to end service.

djpbarry wrote: »

Case in point: the Westlink Toll Bridge. Capacity was doubled - virtually no effect on traffic congestion.

Case against Blackrock at a standstill after QBC, or any QBC really.

djpbarry wrote: »

Possibly because the bulk of funding for infrastructure goes into the road network (presumably to satisfy individuals such as yourself) rather than public transport.

Well, we all use it! regardless of whther we ever take a car journey or not, all the vans trucks etc that service our shops etc with goods have to use them. When you put up simple barriers to this, you decrease efficiency and push up costs (and emmissions). I don't think Dublin bus will allow bread deliveries on their beautiful machines. LOL

snickerpuss

I am glad that most people in this thread think this is a mad idea. If there were no bus lanes people would drive, the reason I would never drive over to UCD is cos I'd be stuck in traffic instead of whizzing past it in the bus lane.

The Malahide Rd QBC is fine the large majority of that road but it narrows at Donnycarney and the buses have to merge with the cars. Again, it's a choke point not really a bus lane fault.

seamus

snickerpuss wrote: »

I am glad that most people in this thread think this is a mad idea. If there were no bus lanes people would drive, the reason I would never drive over to UCD is cos I'd be stuck in traffic instead of whizzing past it in the bus lane.

If there were no bus lanes, people wouldn't have a choice. Busses would be slower than cars.

Fact of the matter is if you remove bus lanes, the cars will fill up the space. Let's say thirty busses use a QBC in the space of an hour. That's one every two minutes, which would appear like an "empty" lane to the car drivers. If the busses carry 150 people each, and we remove the bus lanes, let's say that 100 people from each bus will switch to their cars. That's 3000 extra cars on that road for that hour each morning. If each cars is 2.5 meters long, and occupies an extra 1.25 metres front and back, then the total road space required each morning for that hour, is 15km.

Now, that would be a pretty busy lane, but the less busy lanes are shorter. Probably no more than 500m. Even if ten busses use that lane and you remove the lane, you require ten times more roadspace than you have made available.

mickoneill30

I don't know what the statistics were for 2007 but for 2006

Dublin bus had 1028 buses which travelled 60m Km and carried 146m passengers.
Lets get rid of the bus lanes and see how those 146m passengers work out in cars.
Lets see how Kyoto managed with that. 1028 buses. 146m passengers. How many cars would be needed for that amount of passengers.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/transport/current/transport.pdf

That's not counting Bus Eireann or any of the private operators.

For the guy complaining about 2 buses passing him by in an hour I agree it's a disgrace. I don't use the Blackrock route but I use Swords - City every day. The buses go along at a fairly consistant rate until they get to Whitehall. Then they have to queue there for 15 - 20 mins for the couple of hundred metres where there's no bus lane and when we eventually get in you get a few buses at once. I'm sure the people up ahead in cars look at that empty bus lane and think it's a disgrace the buses aren't in it. What they really need to do is join up the bus lane so the buses aren't held up. That way you'd get to see them go by every few minutes.
Everybody would be happy. People in the buses get into the city quicker and the people in the cars can be satisfied that the bus lanes aren't being wasted.

markpb

snickerpuss wrote: »

The Malahide Rd QBC is fine the large majority of that road but it narrows at Donnycarney and the buses have to merge with the cars. Again, it's a choke point not really a bus lane fault.

It's entirely due to lazy bus lane planning. They have junctions in other cities (abroad, obviously) and yet they manage to let buses flow through. Solutions have been found, Dublin continues to ignore them.

djpbarry

Bee wrote: »

Bus pollution is a serious issue, I shudder to think what the air quality levels are on bus congested O'Connell St.

You think air quality would improve if all buses were removed and people were forced to use cars instead?

Bee wrote: »

The National Environment Technology Centre in the UK has shown that a single diesel bus produces as much particulate pollution as 128 petrol cars, and NOx emissions equivalent to 39 cars.

Have you got a source for this? NETCEN has not existed for some time so I'd be surprised if this study was up-to-date.

Bee wrote: »

They increase journey times unnecessarily.

How do bus lanes increase journey times for buses?

Bee wrote: »

They create traffic jams where there were previously none.

This is generally not true. Bus lanes are often created because of traffic jams hindering the progress of the bus.

Bee wrote: »

They create hazardous situations where vehicles wish to turn left and are lethal to cyclists

How would this change if bus lanes were removed?

Bee wrote: »

They enthuse some bus drivers to drive aggressively by encouraging them to think they have more right to be on the road than anyone else and cyclists suffer disproportionally.

:rolleyes:
I cycle all the time and never have any problems with bus drivers. It's taxis and delivery vans who constantly try to mow me down!

Bee wrote: »

They encourage bus drivers to drive at normal speed past queues of stationary traffic, often without sufficient regard to pedestrians mothers with prams etc

I see. Exactly how many mother and child couples have been savagely run down by buses in Dublin?

Bee wrote: »

They make it more difficult for pedestrians to cross the road by removing the natural gaps that appear in free flowing traffic.

You’re getting desperate now.

Bee wrote: »

They generate contempt for the law.

I see. So we should stop making new laws so that criminals don't feel so restrained?

Bee wrote: »

They divert police resources away from dealing with criminals.

How? Bus lanes are monitored by the traffic corps.

Bee wrote: »

They incite road rage.

Clutching at straws.

Bee wrote: »

They are usually counter-productive in terms of improving the bus service.

Again, how is this true exactly? Have you ever actually taken a bus anywhere?

Tea drinker wrote: »

Yes please!... there is SFA competition to Dublin Bus!

Then set up your own bus company if you feel that strongly about it.

Tea drinker wrote: »

They have a very small footprint and there is a serious amount of people cycling these days.

Actually, the number of people cycling in Dublin has decreased from about 30,000 in 1996 to about 21,000 in 2006.

Tea drinker wrote: »

Case against Blackrock at a standstill after QBC, or any QBC really.

That is your opinion. Unless you can come up with some solid evidence then it will remain as such.

Gobán Saor

There is an unedifying whiff of burning martyr about some of the pro-public transport, anti-car brigade. Yes of course cars have a downside and yes of course we should have a better public transport system. However lets not forget that the widespread availability of the motor car has been one of the great personal liberating forces of the twentieth century. It has given individuals choices about how and where they spend their lives and opened up a vast range of activities and options for ordinary people. It is a choice and availability of choice is a good thing.

All too often, the transport debate (of which the bus-lane issue is a small but typical example) is ruthlessly shoehorned into an either-or debate. Either you're for bus lanes - lots of them, the more the merrier - or you're an anti-social, uncaring, gas-guzzling, planet destroying yob. Perhaps it's a deep-seated requirement of human nature to practise rituals of piety that were once a feature of organised religions and have now resurfaced, stronger than ever, with a secular face. And just like the state once supported the church and persecuted non-believers, so now the new orthodoxy is imposed with the full moral authority of the politically correct right-on "people like us."

My policy on bus lanes is very simple. Any day I'm in my car they are the spawn of Satan, an inefficient, wasteful emanation of a nanny-knows-best state gone mad. For those days when I'm on the bus, they are a sensible, necessary and minimalist step to sorting out our traffic chaos. Simple, eh?:D

In other words, its a practical issue not a moral one. Bus users AND car users both deserve consideration. Not all bus lanes are good. Some are badly thought out and appear to be knee jerk attempts at traffic management.
On those rare, occasional days when bus lanes are opened up to regular traffic - for whatever reason - it is remarkable how much better traffic flows. All traffic, including buses.

djpbarry

Gobán Saor wrote: »

On those rare, occasional days when bus lanes are opened up to regular traffic - for whatever reason - it is remarkable how much better traffic flows. All traffic, including buses.

You mean Sundays?

seamus

Gobán Saor wrote: »

On those rare, occasional days when bus lanes are opened up to regular traffic - for whatever reason - it is remarkable how much better traffic flows. All traffic, including buses.

Well, to be fair, bus lanes are opened only when the traffic is by nature less heavy. So of course the traffic will flow better - there's less of it.

Although interestingly enough, where a bus lane exists, people are reluctant to use it even when they can. Go into Dublin City centre during periods when the lanes are open and you'll see hundreds of people happily queueing in the normal lanes while the bus lanes sit empty.

As you quite rightly point out though, yes plenty of bus lanes are a mess. They randomly merge back into traffic flow (often at the worse point), where simply continuing them on or having them bypass the traffic lights would solve everyone's headaches.

The N4 will be a good example of bad bus lane planning when it's done. Coming up to the M50, the busses will have to drive in the bus lanes, up to the last stop at Liffey Valley. Then they'll have to pull out, cross one lane of traffic and disrupt another to drive towards the city. It would have made more sense to have the bus lane as the second lane of four (with an island bus stop), and let the M50 northbound traffic continue on uninterrupted.

But by the same virtue - that QBC is a godsend for those who use the busses in the area, it only has a few small bottlenecks.

Gobán Saor

djpbarry wrote: »

You mean Sundays?

No, I mean those few occasions on which there's some exceptional reason for doing so and the Gardai announce that bus lanes are open to all traffic. It happened when the farmers "tractorcade" converged on the Dail, when there was a partial bus strike/work to rule and one ot two exceptionally bad weather days.

Stark

A day isn't enough time to affect traffic trends. You're spreaing the same amount of traffic over twice the road space so you get a once off improvement in traffic flow (for cars anyway, I'm not sure how you make that judgement for buses unless you're actually on the bus). However, like previous posters have said, if you opened the bus lane permanently, traffic on the road would eventually double and you would have lost the benefits that the bus lane provided.

Victor

Gobán Saor wrote: »

No, I mean those few occasions on which there's some exceptional reason for doing so and the Gardai announce that bus lanes are open to all traffic. It happened when the farmers "tractorcade" converged on the Dail, when there was a partial bus strike/work to rule and one ot two exceptionally bad weather days.

You need to take into account that on such days, people tend to alter their travel patterns, either travelling earlier / later or not travelling at all.

neilled

egan007 wrote: »

The obvious answer to this is to have competition, drivers may be more likely to work private.
Of course there's always the robots.....

Sorry to break the news to you but competition isn't the panacea to all ills. In fact in a number of places (i'm thinking uk in particular) all that has resulted from so called competition is that local monopolies have been granted to private operators for a number of years, after which a franchise can be reviewed. In the meantime routes can be slashed so only the most profitable ones remain, staff find wages cut, passengers find increasing fares and the only one laughing are the board of directors of the various private monopolies that have one the right to operate the routes and their shareholders. Of course they get subsidy's to buy buses etc so how that would solve problems boggles me.

Some good points have been made in this discussion, in particular to the note of poorly designed bus lanes and the fact that some of them end at various chokepoints around the city.

Its rare enough that I'm on a bus these days, I cycle pretty much everywhere .

MCMLXXXIII

neilled wrote: »

Sorry to break the news to you but competition isn't the panacea to all ills. In fact in a number of places (i'm thinking uk in particular) all that has resulted from so called competition is that local monopolies have been granted to private operators for a number of years, after which a franchise can be reviewed. In the meantime routes can be slashed so only the most profitable ones remain, staff find wages cut, passengers find increasing fares and the only one laughing are the board of directors of the various private monopolies that have one the right to operate the routes and their shareholders. Of course they get subsidy's to buy buses etc so how that would solve problems boggles me.

Some good points have been made in this discussion, in particular to the note of poorly designed bus lanes and the fact that some of them end at various chokepoints around the city.

Its rare enough that I'm on a bus these days, I cycle pretty much everywhere .

You are so right it's not even funny. Everyone can see what happens when we privatize things (anyone remember Enron?).

But seriously, back to the beginning statement:

Tea drinker wrote: »

If we had a nice integrated public transport system we could argue that a well populated bus lane feeding into that would be useful - but we don't.

...Therein lies the problem. You aren't going to have a "nice integrated public transport system" until it is utilized by the public and has enough funding. People don't like taxes, so the funding will come from bus fares. Higher bus fares make less people ride. The only thing to engourage more ridership is to designate lanes for bus-only use. That way, when you are sitting in traffic and see a bus fly by you might consider it the next time you take that route. They aren't going to buy more busses until the current busses are at or near capacity. They try to maximize the usage and money from fares by running the busses during the busiest times. If the bus is only half full, why would they run another?

As for that pollution statistic - the busses are running whether people are using them or not. The 28 cars worth of pollution doesn't change if one person is riding or 60. For every extra passenger, that's one more polluting car off the road with the same exhaust the bus has always put out. However, I would like to thank you for not blaming the passenger auto industry for being the world's only downfall.