Nutty Green Party Driving Licence Proposal

Orange69

maidhc wrote: »

How can there be a useful public transport system in rural ireland? How does one implement it? Can I have a bus stop outside my door every 20 mins if I live 5 miles outside Ballydehob? Because this is the kind of flexibility people need if they are not to bother with a car!

Ok first of all if people who are incapable of passing a driving test they should not expect the flexibility of a car.. Tough sh*t, get over it... Public transport will never be as flexible as your own car unless you live in a large well run city..

public transport system in rural ireland? Its easily implemented, you only need someone with good business sense and an eye for cost cutting (like Ryanair).
One possible solution would be a couple of guys working a 40sq area who will take route bookings.. the user pays a small fee and the government then subsidize the system ..

Incompetence and laziness is holding back such a system not feasibility. Its the same in all areas of Irish life. The government are incapable of planning or implementing anything properly so its left up to private individuals/business to do it themselves..

maidhc

Orange69 wrote: »

Ok first of all if people who are incapable of passing a driving test they should not expect the flexibility of a car.. Tough sh*t, get over it... Public transport will never be as flexible as your own car unless you live in a large well run city..

People who can pass a driving test in a city has little relevance to driving in the country. Indeed many of my friends who are used to beating up and down the motorways drive like nervous wrecks to my house! Entirely different skill.

Orange69 wrote: »

public transport system in rural ireland? Its easily implemented, you only need someone with good business sense and an eye for cost cutting (like Ryanair).
One possible solution would be a couple of guys working a 40sq area who will take route bookings.. the user pays a small fee and the government then subsidize the system ..

But you don't have the density of population. Ultimately what you are suggesting exists... it is called a taxi, and it is too expensive if you need to travel 40 miles a day... and it isn't any benefit over a car

Orange69 wrote: »

The government are incapable of planning or implementing anything properly so its left up to private individuals/business to do it themselves..

Indeed. That is a fundametal tenet of capitalism

mike65

Funny thing, once we all managed to get along somehow with help from family, neighbours and strangers with the aid of a thumb.

Mike.

maidhc

mike65 wrote: »

Funny thing, once we all managed to get along somehow with help from family, neighbours and strangers with the aid of a thumb.

Mike.

Fair point... and when my dad was doing the same commute as me he regularly used to give people spins in and out.

We do live in a different Ireland. Sadly a more self righteous and less friendly one. At least the government cant be blamed for that!

mike65

I no longer plough the highways and byways of the land but the number of hikers has fallen hugely over the last 10 years or so. Now its mainly pack-pack tourists who thumb.

Mike.

Stark

maidhc wrote: »

People who can pass a driving test in a city has little relevance to driving in the country. Indeed many of my friends who are used to beating up and down the motorways drive like nervous wrecks to my house! Entirely different skill.

Someone who's passed a driving test knows to look before pulling out of a side road onto a major road, which is more than what a lot of Mary's friends seem to be capable of. Though who knows, maybe after they've finished crawling down the N road at 10mph, the rally driving skills take over again once they get back on the back roads.

Calina

Just out of interest, how many of you have addressed a quiet email to Mary voicing your concern about this?

Ultimately I strongly disagree with the proposal but some of the comments here beggar belief. I have no idea where this nonsense is coming from - I doubt it's two tier blood alcohol level testing. In any case, the tendency there is towards lower levels and less tolerance.

There are two things I see in this thread; a strong anti-old people bias and a strong anti rural bias. Obviously the cases of both are not aided by idiotic proposals like this but ultimately, there are driver safety issues all over the place, not just down the country, not just women drivers, not just old people, not just boyracers. Unfortunately, the vast majority of drivers only see what other people do wrong.

Most people in Ireland tend to moan and whinge about stuff but never actually do anything at all about said stuff. Then they moan and whinge about people who succeed in getting stuff because they do something about it. I'm thinking of the general anti-Irish bias there is here.

Me, I'm all for dictatorship. You do not drive in a car on your own until you have passed a driving test, no ifs, no buts, no special cases.

Incidentally, how many of you are aware that if you are 70 or older, you only get a driving licence for 3 years and have to pass a medical to get it renewed?

Stark, in my experience, your comment is wrong. Most elderly and cautious drivers are horrifically slow to move out into gaps much to the annoyance of drivers behind them. They don't - as a general rule - drive straight out into main roads without taking a good long look.

Regarding people not thumbing, there are some key reasons for this 1) it's not advised on personal safety grounds. A lot of girls won't do it because they are afraid of getting raped. A lot of men won't pick up girls in case they get accused of raping said girls. As for guys, well they all seem to buy cars the minute they can afford the insurance, driving licence regulations not withstanding. Hence, fewer hitch-hikers. Me personally as a girl I would never pick up a stranger, end of story. Being mugged a couple of times in any situation tends to make you overly cautious in this respect.

Public transport in rural areas will never be as efficient as public transport in urban areas due to economies of scale and the lack of potential customers. Ryanair as a model only worked because Ryanair managed to persuade people to go to places they didn't know they want to go to. Unfortunately, public transport doesn't work quite like that. There is an element of necessity in moving yourself around on a day to day basis that just doesn't exist in leisure air travel.

In any case, the GP proposal - and to be honest I can't see it being a GP proposal but an idea from an individual TD - is crazy irrespective of any other consideration regarding rural not rural, old not old.

Calina

MYOB wrote: »

I agree with the idea of such a concept but none of the implementation she suggested.... one of the issues with the new driving licence proposals is that they will make getting to education or work virtually impossible for *teenagers* in rural areas. Eldery people who are dangerous to drive are dangerous to drive, simple as, but theres huge amounts of competent 17/18 year old drivers either awaiting a test or recently passed in rural areas who rely on their cars for their everyday lives. However, if the new licencing rules stop them driving unaccompanied... bye bye job/college/possibly even leaving cert

Sorry, I've only just seen this.

I grew up in a rural area. I managed - despite that MASSIVE disadvantage of not being able to drive to get a Leaving Certificate and get a place in university in Dublin and get an honours degree. 15 years ago when public transport was a hell of a lot worse than it is now, even in rural areas.

Are you telling me that modern teenagers would be so traumatised by not being allowed to drive that they can't make school at the age of 17 when they managed it fine up to the age of 16? What on earth are you implying, that there are parents out there who are capable of giving their teenagers the support to get a car, but not the support to get them an education?

L1011

Calina wrote: »

Sorry, I've only just seen this.

I grew up in a rural area. I managed - despite that MASSIVE disadvantage of not being able to drive to get a Leaving Certificate and get a place in university in Dublin and get an honours degree. 15 years ago when public transport was a hell of a lot worse than it is now, even in rural areas.

Are you telling me that modern teenagers would be so traumatised by not being allowed to drive that they can't make school at the age of 17 when they managed it fine up to the age of 16? What on earth are you implying, that there are parents out there who are capable of giving their teenagers the support to get a car, but not the support to get them an education?

I'll give you the example of where I'm from - it is actually impossible to get to Dublin within one day outside of peak summer time if you don't have a car. And yes, its in Ireland - in winter the first ferry out is 9am, but the first one with a bus connection is 11am. On Sundays its 12:30. This brings you to a town 8 miles away which has one bus a day to Dublin.

It leaves at 7:30am.

In summer there's private buses there and back, but not outside of that.

Just because wherever you're from actually has something approaching public transport doesn't mean the rest of the country did/still does.

Calina

Proximity or otherwise to Dublin is irrelevant for the leaving certificate and yet you imply not being allowed to drive might cost a kid his or her leaving certificate. I don't get the problem that people have when kids turn 17. What is the difference between how they get around at 16 when they can't have a driving licence at all and 17 when they have to be acccompanied?

spurious

Calina wrote: »

Me, I'm all for dictatorship. You do not drive in a car on your own until you have passed a driving test, no ifs, no buts, no special cases.

This seems to me to be the only way it should be.

galactus

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Back to the drawing board folks.. better yet, back to the electorate because this current government seems to have lost the plot completely and it's arrogance defies belief in the face of rising unemployment, economic downturn , the ongoing healthcare crisis, and ever increasing crime and antisocial behaviour.

Well said. As an ex-Green, I'm livid with that shower and their BS.

corktina

flabbergasted......a tonne of metal travelling at even 50 km'h is a lethal weapon even in experianced hands....noone should be alowed on the orads without proper lessons and a test...(it only takes a few months so all this crap about not being able to get to school or college or work is just ludicrus. If you cant pass a test, stay off the road.)..

L1011

Calina wrote: »

Proximity or otherwise to Dublin is irrelevant for the leaving certificate and yet you imply not being allowed to drive might cost a kid his or her leaving certificate. I don't get the problem that people have when kids turn 17. What is the difference between how they get around at 16 when they can't have a driving licence at all and 17 when they have to be acccompanied?

Significantly more grants for transport of u16s in rural areas, thats why. Quite a number of school bus services stop carrying 17 year olds. Also, depending on the schools attitude to effectively requiring out-of-hours "optional" work in 6th year (I had normal honours maths classes starting at 8:15am due to a lack of teachers, thankfully in Dublin for transport reasons - and I drove anyway, but...) it may be entirely impossible to use any existing school transport system in 6th year.

corktina - if it was possible to get a test in a reasonable time frame that would be acceptable. Its not and it won't be for quite some time no matter what the RSA claim.

MYOB

MYOB wrote: »

Significantly more grants for transport of u16s in rural areas, thats why. Quite a number of school bus services stop carrying 17 year olds.

Well the obvious answer is the allow more "mature" studants on these busses, especially as in reality they have no alternative forms of transport now that the unaccompanied "L" driver loophole is being closed.


edit allow granny on as well, it'll be safer than lettiing her loose on the road with dodgy driving abilities.

corktina

MYOB wrote: »

Significantly more grants for transport of u16s in rural areas, thats why. Quite a number of school bus services stop carrying 17 year olds. Also, depending on the schools attitude to effectively requiring out-of-hours "optional" work in 6th year (I had normal honours maths classes starting at 8:15am due to a lack of teachers, thankfully in Dublin for transport reasons - and I drove anyway, but...) it may be entirely impossible to use any existing school transport system in 6th year.

corktina - if it was possible to get a test in a reasonable time frame that would be acceptable. Its not and it won't be for quite some time no matter what the RSA claim.

not so Im told...the waiting time is coming down and even were it a year what excuse is there for not getting it done ..it would mean taking a year out perhaps before attending third level but thats all..
.(Oh and if you drove to school you must have been on your first license and therefore if you drove alone you were driving illegally (and uninsured) The wait for a test does not make it alright to do this....

corktina

Deleted User wrote: »

Well the obvious answer is the allow more "mature" studants on these busses, especially as in reality they have no alternative forms of transport now that the unaccompanied "L" driver loophole is being closed.


edit allow granny on as well, it'll be safer than lettiing her loose on the road with dodgy driving abilities.

absolutely...develop the school bus netwrok into a proper rural transport service......wouldnt take a lot....

L1011

corktina wrote: »

.(Oh and if you drove to school you must have been on your first license and therefore if you drove alone you were driving illegally (and uninsured) The wait for a test does not make it alright to do this....

I was 19 in 6th year, but anyway. I did drive unaccompanied on my first provisional licence, and I doubt you'll find anyone in the country that has a full licence and didn't, unless they didn't drive on their first provisional at all.

And one year to wait for the test is unacceptable. One MONTH is unacceptable - you can get it within days or same day in most of the world.

corktina

corktina wrote: »

absolutely...develop the school bus netwrok into a proper rural transport service......wouldnt take a lot....

True, you see those busses parked up all over the place during the day.

corktina

I'm sorry but however long the wait for a test is is no excuse for driving illegally. Unacceptable it may be, but breaking the law is not the solution.

L1011

corktina wrote: »

I'm sorry but however long the wait for a test is is no excuse for driving illegally. Unacceptable it may be, but breaking the law is not the solution.

Vast majority of the country doesn't agree with you - even to the point where insurers emphasise that they do cover unaccompanied 1st/3rd+ drivers (Quinn). And as we know from history here, nothing *ever* gets changed in this country without the rules being broken or at the very least, bent heavily.

MYOB

MYOB wrote: »

And as we know from history here, nothing *ever* gets changed in this country without the rules being broken or at the very least, bent heavily.

Which causes as many problems as it "cures", but with much greater danger to those who abide by the laws (edit : of the road!).

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

Which causes as many problems as it "cures", but with much greater danger to those who abide by the laws.

So smuggling contraception in from Northern Ireland caused danger to those that didn't use it; masses of people watching British TV (when TV wasn't licenced here) caused danger to those that didn't have a TV; and so on then?

going OT here.

corktina

Deleted User wrote: »

going OT here.

OT? OTT i think....:)

two wrongs dont make a right....thats what my Ma taught me

Calina

MYOB wrote: »

So smuggling contraception in from Northern Ireland caused danger to those that didn't use it; masses of people watching British TV (when TV wasn't licenced here) caused danger to those that didn't have a TV; and so on then?

I hope you don't think that's an argument winning riposte because it is not. There is a degree of physical risk to third parties posed by driving not present in buying a box of condoms or watching Coronation Street illicitly.

Ultimately, there is no sense in the Mary White proposal. The driving test, while enjoying a horrifically high failure rate, is not that onerous. There should be no need for a special easier test for any segment of the population, regardless of their situation.

While there is a long enough waiting list, efforts are being made in this respect, but it'd help if 50% of candidates didn't manage to fail their tests. It seems, however, that the tendancy in this country instead of getting with it and dealing with the law as it stands is to demand special cases. In that situation, i see no great difference between the Mary White proposals and suggestions that teenagers get some leeway because god help us all, their parents won't drive them anywhere and there is no bus.

L1011

Calina wrote: »

I hope you don't think that's an argument winning riposte because it is not. There is a degree of physical risk to third parties posed by driving not present in buying a box of condoms or watching Coronation Street illicitly.

It wasn't meant to be - dolanbaker placed a blanket assumption that breaking/bending any rules to ensure they get changed puts people at physical danger; when in the majority of cases it clearly doesn't.

MYOB

MYOB wrote: »

It wasn't meant to be - dolanbaker placed a blanket assumption that breaking/bending any rules to ensure they get changed puts people at physical danger; when in the majority of cases it clearly doesn't.

I was referring to the subject in mind, have edited my original quote to clarify that, still no excuse for going off on a tangent.

Capt'n Midnight

A driving license is a test of whether you are to be trusted to control something that is lethal to others. It is not a right. It should only be given when earned and to be removed if abused.

On the continent they allow some forms of vehicles that do not need driving licenses, most restricted to 50cc. Presumably on the basis that you are far less likely to kill someone else with it.

Or maybe just a fast track test for such special cases. Should only take a month or two to give them one chance to pass the test or get back to the end of the queue. During that time extra rural transport could be provided.

We've had far too many permanent solutions to temporary problems, but hey let's just have another amnesty already.

unkel

Calina wrote: »

instead of getting with it and dealing with the law as it stands is to demand special cases. In that situation, i see no great difference between the Mary White proposals and suggestions that teenagers get some leeway because god help us all, their parents won't drive them anywhere and there is no bus.

Nail + head. No matter what age, if you want to drive, make sure you pass your test and can afford a car. If not, walk or cycle.