Nutty Green Party Driving Licence Proposal

mike65

Okay this takes the busicut, the Green Party TD for Carlow/Kilkenny Mary White has submitted a proposal for a "Rural" driving licence for people who find themselves isolated - it would be aimed at grannies.

Rural isolation is an isssue but this is just reckless, elderly people who have no driving history being allowed a sit for a "joke" licence for local rural rambling will make the roads more dangerous.

I doubt the idea will fly but that its getting an airing is worrying.

Mike.

Alun

Full story here

http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=51811-qqqx=1.asp

Unbelievable. The comparison with graduated licences such as in NZ is pretty stupid though ... chalk and cheese.

L1011

I agree with the idea of such a concept but none of the implementation she suggested.... one of the issues with the new driving licence proposals is that they will make getting to education or work virtually impossible for *teenagers* in rural areas. Eldery people who are dangerous to drive are dangerous to drive, simple as, but theres huge amounts of competent 17/18 year old drivers either awaiting a test or recently passed in rural areas who rely on their cars for their everyday lives. However, if the new licencing rules stop them driving unaccompanied... bye bye job/college/possibly even leaving cert

So - a "no motorways, no city driving, speed limited to 80k, no night time" licence, sort of like US learner permits, would be an idea here. But not for old people who can't pass a test, just say 17-20 year olds who haven't been able to sit a test...

egan007

mike65 wrote: »

Okay this takes the busicut, the Green Party TD for Carlow/Kilkenny Mary White has submitted a proposal for a "Rural" driving licence for people who find themselves isolated - it would be aimed at grannies.

Rural isolation is an isssue but this is just reckless, elderly people who have no driving history being allowed a sit for a "joke" licence for local rural rambling will make the roads more dangerous.

I doubt the idea will fly but that its getting an airing is worrying.

Mike.

This assumes that the current licence system is not a joke.
(which it is)

unkel

Embarrassing. At least Jackie Healy-Ray was funny when he came out with stuff like this

ednwireland

just implement the currrent system now, get rid of the drivers who arent allowed to drive (under the current law) i.e. anyone not on a 2nd provisional licence shouldn't be on the road unaccompanied anyone who thinks rural roads are safer is kidding themselves, bad signage poor surfaces blind bends etc etc.
most accidents seem to happen on back roads
this is nuts

Stark

However, the practical driving test for restricted licences would also be “restricted” — essentially to knowledge of local roads and driving conditions — and therefore be an “easier” test.

So just like the normal driving test then.

Victor

I propose that such licences be allowed, but restricted to non-motorised vehicles.

mike65

Agree - cyclists should take a test.

Mike.

tbh

normally I can see the pros and cons for even the nuttiest proposals, but man....this is just stupid.

seamus

Yeah, completely ridiculous. I'm fairly sure that most politicians don't understand the current licencing conditions, never mind what's coming down the line.

Apparently there are 30,000 provisional drivers in this situation. Since this is around 10% of the provisional population, I'd say that figure has been inflated somewhat. The bulk of these people would *not* be on a second provisional and so are currently driving illegally anyway. Any new rules are irrelevant.

It's just another special case that will make us non-compliant with the EU. And it'll sit on the books despite the fact that most people in this situation will be dead or incapable of driving within 15 years.

All it takes is one 18 year old from Dublin to challenge it on the grounds of ageism or some other ism, and before you know it, anyone can drive on their own provided that they don't go above 80km/h and stick to "local roads".

Once again, it's a solution for a problem which doesn't really exist.

E92

Surely the Greens are supposed to be stopping us from using cars, not encouraging it?

Orange69

E92 wrote: »

Surely the Greens are supposed to be stopping us from using cars, not encouraging it?

Ya, shouldn't they be looking into a public transport model for rural communities instead..?

If they make the driving test any easier they may as well start handing them out in packets of cornflakes! Anyone who is incapable of passing the current joke of a test should not be on the road!

No wonder the standard of driving is the toilet!

Orange69

MYOB wrote: »

So - a "no motorways, no city driving, speed limited to 80k, no night time" licence, sort of like US learner permits, would be an idea here. But not for old people who can't pass a test, just say 17-20 year olds who haven't been able to sit a test...

Do you really think people would actually stick to these rules? If this is implemented its another 2nd provisional loop hole waiting to happen..

L1011

Orange69 wrote: »

Do you really think people would actually stick to these rules? If this is implemented its another 2nd provisional loop hole waiting to happen..

With proper enforcement (rolls on floor in fits of laughter) of course. :rolleyes:

The "2nd provisional loophole" gave you an entirely legitimate right to drive unaccompanied anywhere except motorways; this wouldn't.

Stark

MYOB wrote: »

The "2nd provisional loophole" gave you an entirely legitimate right to drive unaccompanied anywhere except motorways; this wouldn't.

I don't understand the point of it in that case. How would it be better than a standard learner's permit that allows the learner to gain experience of night-time driving and city driving while accompanied?

maidhc

Orange69 wrote: »

Ya, shouldn't they be looking into a public transport model for rural communities instead..?

Because it is unfeasible

Orange69 wrote: »

If they make the driving test any easier they may as well start handing them out in packets of cornflakes! Anyone who is incapable of passing the current joke of a test should not be on the road!

No wonder the standard of driving is the toilet!

If you are driving on country roads you already have to expect the unexpected.. this can range from farmers wives in aging Mondeos to a herd of sheep. I don't see how this heightens the risks to be honest.

L1011

Stark wrote: »

I don't understand the point of it in that case. How would it be better than a standard learner's permit that allows the learner to gain experience of night-time driving and city driving while accompanied?

Referring to my mad proposal or Mary White's mad proposal? You'd still be allowed do those things accompanied on mine

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

whippet

I am horrified with even the suggestion of this. I listened to Mary White this morning and I got such a sense of gombeenism.

She was on about pensioners collecting perscriptions, grand children etc .. if they need to do this do what the rest of us have had to do, pass your feckin' test.

I don't buy all this crap about people being put off the road, my sister did her lessons, applied for the test and 12 weeks later has a full license. This was in finglas by the way. Why can't everyone else do it? As for those who sit and fail and then sit and fail again .. please learn to drive properly before taking a test slot on someone who has actually taken the time and effort to prepare and learn how to drive.

This proposal will never make it anyway, learner drivers as it is don't take any notice of their restrictied license (driving unacompanied, L Plates and driving on motorways) .. why does anyone think that this new breed of unqualified drivers will adheare to the rules.

_Kaiser_

Yet another idiotic proposal from our out-of-touch governmenment - interestingly however it's being suggested that this is being used to soften us up to the idea of a two-tier drink/driving system for rural dwellers (it wasn't so long ago that certain quarters were suggesting that people living in the country should have the legal right to drive home from the pub after a few as it's their only social outlet etc).

Anyway, to propose that people who have failed their driving test (which lets face it, isn't exactly rocket science) after possibly several attempts and/or are elderly and currently unqualified to drive be allowed out on the roads on these so-called "restricted" licenses is ridiculous!

Mary White suggests that they will be limited to driving only during certain hours, in certain areas, and at certain speeds - but she seems to forget that there are other people besides these "old dears" on their way to the chemist or mass on the roads, and that these "R-drivers" would pose an even greater hazard to themselves and others if suddenly allowed out en-masse.

She also suggests that Insurance companies could be encouraged to allow these people lower rates as a further result of this proposal - not only then is she suggesting that unfit and higher-risk drivers be legally allowed on the roads, but that they should be fiancially rewarded as well??

Perhaps the best statement from her on Newstalk this morning though is that she sees this as reenforcing the idea that driving is a privilege, not a right - maybe in "opposite land" Mary, because what you're suggesting is in fact giving unqualified/unfit drivers the "right" to be on the roads regardless.

I haven't even mentioned enforcement, as we already know the Gardai can't (and have no interest in) doing people for breaking the existing laws... after all, it's far easier to nab them for doing a few km/h over on the dual-carriageway right? Plus it brings up the figures and lets them crow on about how "penalty points ARE working" :rolleyes:

Back to the drawing board folks.. better yet, back to the electorate because this current government seems to have lost the plot completely and it's arrogance defies belief in the face of rising unemployment, economic downturn , the ongoing healthcare crisis, and ever increasing crime and antisocial behaviour.

Orange69

MYOB wrote: »

With proper enforcement (rolls on floor in fits of laughter) of course. :rolleyes:

The "2nd provisional loophole" gave you an entirely legitimate right to drive unaccompanied anywhere except motorways; this wouldn't.

What i mean is that the 2nd/3rd....15th provisional allows people to drive without passing their test.. This new moronic idea will allow people to drive having passed some kind of half assed mock test..

And don't kid yourself thinking that people will actually follow the restrictions.. this is Ireland..

maidhc wrote: »

Because it is unfeasible

How so? Its a lack of competence and political will that makes these things unfeasible not any practical reasons!

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is Ireland where gombeenism still rules. People wont view this as opportunity for rural people to drive, they will see it as a handy way of avoiding a proper test.

whippet wrote: »

I am horrified with even the suggestion of this. I listened to Mary White this morning and I got such a sense of gombeenism.

She was on about pensioners collecting perscriptions, grand children etc .. if they need to do this do what the rest of us have had to do, pass your feckin' test.

I don't buy all this crap about people being put off the road, my sister did her lessons, applied for the test and 12 weeks later has a full license. This was in finglas by the way. Why can't everyone else do it? As for those who sit and fail and then sit and fail again .. please learn to drive properly before taking a test slot on someone who has actually taken the time and effort to prepare and learn how to drive.

This proposal will never make it anyway, learner drivers as it is don't take any notice of their restrictied license (driving unacompanied, L Plates and driving on motorways) .. why does anyone think that this new breed of unqualified drivers will adheare to the rules.

I agree, if you cant pass a test then f*ck off.. Its not the states obligation to cater for people who cant drive properly or pass a simple test..

The fact that the dept of transport are actually considering this is what offends me.. We have a pure peanut gallery of a political class.

seamus

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

She also suggests that Insurance companies could be encouraged to allow these people lower rates as a further result of this proposal - not only then is she suggesting that unfit and higher-risk drivers be legally allowed on the roads, but that they should be fiancially rewarded as well??

Well to be fair, the AA said the drivers in this category (I'm assuming it's 55+, rural address and no full licence) don't even appear in the crash statistics. So to say that they're higher-risk is incorrect.

My argument would be that if they don't appear in the crash stats, then they should be perfectly capable of passing a test.

I still cannot see the logic behind, "Ah shure they can't pass the test God Bless 'Em". It's a bit like giving someone an honorary degree in English, just cos they like to teach it down the local school, even though they're incapable of passing the exams. Can't qualify == can't drive.

Orange69

seamus wrote: »

I still cannot see the logic behind, "Ah shure they can't pass the test God Bless 'Em". It's a bit like giving someone an honorary degree in English, just cos they like to teach it down the local school, even though they're incapable of passing the exams. Can't qualify == can't drive.

Its this kind of mollycoddling that will be the downfall of this country.. Its the same with social welfare, public service jobs, politicians etc... Incompetence should not be tolerated yet alone rewarded..

whippet

as a matter of interest, where do most fatal accidents and serious accident happen? is it in urban centres? hhhmmm ... so putting more unqualified drivers on rural roads is adding fuel to the fire

seamus

whippet wrote: »

as a matter of interest, where do most fatal accidents and serious accident happen? is it in urban centres? hhhmmm ... so putting more unqualified drivers on rural roads is adding fuel to the fire

Their logic is that Mary will only be pottering down to the local shops to grab a few groceries and won't be going near any dangerous roads.
Of course when Mary pulls out from a side road onto a national road in front of 100km/h traffic, that's where the problems occur.

If they're going to the shops, let them walk with one of those old lady trolley yokes. It'll extend their life too.

eringobragh

This is even more ridulous then their lightbulb proposal. The Driving test is a simple test of competency, too easy if you ask me, if you can't pass it. TS.

AckwelFoley

bottom line is.. somthing has to be done, its all well trying to get these guys off the roads but they need to live and get to work.

Daft as anything the leftys normally suggest at least they are proposomg somthing..

rubadub

mike65 wrote: »

Agree - cyclists should take a test.

Mike.

And pedestrians- the worst offenders of road laws IME.

“What do you do in rural Ireland if there is no bus or train, and the hackney is an expensive option?” she asks.

Get the hackney, your house cost feck all. Are they going to get susbidised cars for the poor grannies condemned to be "city hermits" in places where rent/house prices are higher?

Stark

snyper wrote: »

bottom line is.. somthing has to be done, its all well trying to get these guys off the roads but they need to live and get to work.

Actually she's referring to retired people so the "I need it for work" line goes out the window

maidhc

rubadub wrote: »

Get the hackney, your house cost feck all.

Not worth a response...

Orange69 wrote:

How so? Its a lack of competence and political will that makes these things unfeasible not any practical reasons!

How can there be a useful public transport system in rural ireland? How does one implement it? Can I have a bus stop outside my door every 20 mins if I live 5 miles outside Ballydehob? Because this is the kind of flexibility people need if they are not to bother with a car!

Orange69

maidhc wrote: »

How can there be a useful public transport system in rural ireland? How does one implement it? Can I have a bus stop outside my door every 20 mins if I live 5 miles outside Ballydehob? Because this is the kind of flexibility people need if they are not to bother with a car!

Ok first of all if people who are incapable of passing a driving test they should not expect the flexibility of a car.. Tough sh*t, get over it... Public transport will never be as flexible as your own car unless you live in a large well run city..

public transport system in rural ireland? Its easily implemented, you only need someone with good business sense and an eye for cost cutting (like Ryanair).
One possible solution would be a couple of guys working a 40sq area who will take route bookings.. the user pays a small fee and the government then subsidize the system ..

Incompetence and laziness is holding back such a system not feasibility. Its the same in all areas of Irish life. The government are incapable of planning or implementing anything properly so its left up to private individuals/business to do it themselves..

maidhc

Orange69 wrote: »

Ok first of all if people who are incapable of passing a driving test they should not expect the flexibility of a car.. Tough sh*t, get over it... Public transport will never be as flexible as your own car unless you live in a large well run city..

People who can pass a driving test in a city has little relevance to driving in the country. Indeed many of my friends who are used to beating up and down the motorways drive like nervous wrecks to my house! Entirely different skill.

Orange69 wrote: »

public transport system in rural ireland? Its easily implemented, you only need someone with good business sense and an eye for cost cutting (like Ryanair).
One possible solution would be a couple of guys working a 40sq area who will take route bookings.. the user pays a small fee and the government then subsidize the system ..

But you don't have the density of population. Ultimately what you are suggesting exists... it is called a taxi, and it is too expensive if you need to travel 40 miles a day... and it isn't any benefit over a car

Orange69 wrote: »

The government are incapable of planning or implementing anything properly so its left up to private individuals/business to do it themselves..

Indeed. That is a fundametal tenet of capitalism

mike65

Funny thing, once we all managed to get along somehow with help from family, neighbours and strangers with the aid of a thumb.

Mike.

maidhc

mike65 wrote: »

Funny thing, once we all managed to get along somehow with help from family, neighbours and strangers with the aid of a thumb.

Mike.

Fair point... and when my dad was doing the same commute as me he regularly used to give people spins in and out.

We do live in a different Ireland. Sadly a more self righteous and less friendly one. At least the government cant be blamed for that!

mike65

I no longer plough the highways and byways of the land but the number of hikers has fallen hugely over the last 10 years or so. Now its mainly pack-pack tourists who thumb.

Mike.

Stark

maidhc wrote: »

People who can pass a driving test in a city has little relevance to driving in the country. Indeed many of my friends who are used to beating up and down the motorways drive like nervous wrecks to my house! Entirely different skill.

Someone who's passed a driving test knows to look before pulling out of a side road onto a major road, which is more than what a lot of Mary's friends seem to be capable of. Though who knows, maybe after they've finished crawling down the N road at 10mph, the rally driving skills take over again once they get back on the back roads.

Calina

Just out of interest, how many of you have addressed a quiet email to Mary voicing your concern about this?

Ultimately I strongly disagree with the proposal but some of the comments here beggar belief. I have no idea where this nonsense is coming from - I doubt it's two tier blood alcohol level testing. In any case, the tendency there is towards lower levels and less tolerance.

There are two things I see in this thread; a strong anti-old people bias and a strong anti rural bias. Obviously the cases of both are not aided by idiotic proposals like this but ultimately, there are driver safety issues all over the place, not just down the country, not just women drivers, not just old people, not just boyracers. Unfortunately, the vast majority of drivers only see what other people do wrong.

Most people in Ireland tend to moan and whinge about stuff but never actually do anything at all about said stuff. Then they moan and whinge about people who succeed in getting stuff because they do something about it. I'm thinking of the general anti-Irish bias there is here.

Me, I'm all for dictatorship. You do not drive in a car on your own until you have passed a driving test, no ifs, no buts, no special cases.

Incidentally, how many of you are aware that if you are 70 or older, you only get a driving licence for 3 years and have to pass a medical to get it renewed?

Stark, in my experience, your comment is wrong. Most elderly and cautious drivers are horrifically slow to move out into gaps much to the annoyance of drivers behind them. They don't - as a general rule - drive straight out into main roads without taking a good long look.

Regarding people not thumbing, there are some key reasons for this 1) it's not advised on personal safety grounds. A lot of girls won't do it because they are afraid of getting raped. A lot of men won't pick up girls in case they get accused of raping said girls. As for guys, well they all seem to buy cars the minute they can afford the insurance, driving licence regulations not withstanding. Hence, fewer hitch-hikers. Me personally as a girl I would never pick up a stranger, end of story. Being mugged a couple of times in any situation tends to make you overly cautious in this respect.

Public transport in rural areas will never be as efficient as public transport in urban areas due to economies of scale and the lack of potential customers. Ryanair as a model only worked because Ryanair managed to persuade people to go to places they didn't know they want to go to. Unfortunately, public transport doesn't work quite like that. There is an element of necessity in moving yourself around on a day to day basis that just doesn't exist in leisure air travel.

In any case, the GP proposal - and to be honest I can't see it being a GP proposal but an idea from an individual TD - is crazy irrespective of any other consideration regarding rural not rural, old not old.

Calina

MYOB wrote: »

I agree with the idea of such a concept but none of the implementation she suggested.... one of the issues with the new driving licence proposals is that they will make getting to education or work virtually impossible for *teenagers* in rural areas. Eldery people who are dangerous to drive are dangerous to drive, simple as, but theres huge amounts of competent 17/18 year old drivers either awaiting a test or recently passed in rural areas who rely on their cars for their everyday lives. However, if the new licencing rules stop them driving unaccompanied... bye bye job/college/possibly even leaving cert

Sorry, I've only just seen this.

I grew up in a rural area. I managed - despite that MASSIVE disadvantage of not being able to drive to get a Leaving Certificate and get a place in university in Dublin and get an honours degree. 15 years ago when public transport was a hell of a lot worse than it is now, even in rural areas.

Are you telling me that modern teenagers would be so traumatised by not being allowed to drive that they can't make school at the age of 17 when they managed it fine up to the age of 16? What on earth are you implying, that there are parents out there who are capable of giving their teenagers the support to get a car, but not the support to get them an education?

L1011

Calina wrote: »

Sorry, I've only just seen this.

I grew up in a rural area. I managed - despite that MASSIVE disadvantage of not being able to drive to get a Leaving Certificate and get a place in university in Dublin and get an honours degree. 15 years ago when public transport was a hell of a lot worse than it is now, even in rural areas.

Are you telling me that modern teenagers would be so traumatised by not being allowed to drive that they can't make school at the age of 17 when they managed it fine up to the age of 16? What on earth are you implying, that there are parents out there who are capable of giving their teenagers the support to get a car, but not the support to get them an education?

I'll give you the example of where I'm from - it is actually impossible to get to Dublin within one day outside of peak summer time if you don't have a car. And yes, its in Ireland - in winter the first ferry out is 9am, but the first one with a bus connection is 11am. On Sundays its 12:30. This brings you to a town 8 miles away which has one bus a day to Dublin.

It leaves at 7:30am.

In summer there's private buses there and back, but not outside of that.

Just because wherever you're from actually has something approaching public transport doesn't mean the rest of the country did/still does.

Calina

Proximity or otherwise to Dublin is irrelevant for the leaving certificate and yet you imply not being allowed to drive might cost a kid his or her leaving certificate. I don't get the problem that people have when kids turn 17. What is the difference between how they get around at 16 when they can't have a driving licence at all and 17 when they have to be acccompanied?

spurious

Calina wrote: »

Me, I'm all for dictatorship. You do not drive in a car on your own until you have passed a driving test, no ifs, no buts, no special cases.

This seems to me to be the only way it should be.

galactus

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Back to the drawing board folks.. better yet, back to the electorate because this current government seems to have lost the plot completely and it's arrogance defies belief in the face of rising unemployment, economic downturn , the ongoing healthcare crisis, and ever increasing crime and antisocial behaviour.

Well said. As an ex-Green, I'm livid with that shower and their BS.

corktina

flabbergasted......a tonne of metal travelling at even 50 km'h is a lethal weapon even in experianced hands....noone should be alowed on the orads without proper lessons and a test...(it only takes a few months so all this crap about not being able to get to school or college or work is just ludicrus. If you cant pass a test, stay off the road.)..

L1011

Calina wrote: »

Proximity or otherwise to Dublin is irrelevant for the leaving certificate and yet you imply not being allowed to drive might cost a kid his or her leaving certificate. I don't get the problem that people have when kids turn 17. What is the difference between how they get around at 16 when they can't have a driving licence at all and 17 when they have to be acccompanied?

Significantly more grants for transport of u16s in rural areas, thats why. Quite a number of school bus services stop carrying 17 year olds. Also, depending on the schools attitude to effectively requiring out-of-hours "optional" work in 6th year (I had normal honours maths classes starting at 8:15am due to a lack of teachers, thankfully in Dublin for transport reasons - and I drove anyway, but...) it may be entirely impossible to use any existing school transport system in 6th year.

corktina - if it was possible to get a test in a reasonable time frame that would be acceptable. Its not and it won't be for quite some time no matter what the RSA claim.

MYOB

MYOB wrote: »

Significantly more grants for transport of u16s in rural areas, thats why. Quite a number of school bus services stop carrying 17 year olds.

Well the obvious answer is the allow more "mature" studants on these busses, especially as in reality they have no alternative forms of transport now that the unaccompanied "L" driver loophole is being closed.


edit allow granny on as well, it'll be safer than lettiing her loose on the road with dodgy driving abilities.

corktina

MYOB wrote: »

Significantly more grants for transport of u16s in rural areas, thats why. Quite a number of school bus services stop carrying 17 year olds. Also, depending on the schools attitude to effectively requiring out-of-hours "optional" work in 6th year (I had normal honours maths classes starting at 8:15am due to a lack of teachers, thankfully in Dublin for transport reasons - and I drove anyway, but...) it may be entirely impossible to use any existing school transport system in 6th year.

corktina - if it was possible to get a test in a reasonable time frame that would be acceptable. Its not and it won't be for quite some time no matter what the RSA claim.

not so Im told...the waiting time is coming down and even were it a year what excuse is there for not getting it done ..it would mean taking a year out perhaps before attending third level but thats all..
.(Oh and if you drove to school you must have been on your first license and therefore if you drove alone you were driving illegally (and uninsured) The wait for a test does not make it alright to do this....

corktina

Deleted User wrote: »

Well the obvious answer is the allow more "mature" studants on these busses, especially as in reality they have no alternative forms of transport now that the unaccompanied "L" driver loophole is being closed.


edit allow granny on as well, it'll be safer than lettiing her loose on the road with dodgy driving abilities.

absolutely...develop the school bus netwrok into a proper rural transport service......wouldnt take a lot....

L1011

corktina wrote: »

.(Oh and if you drove to school you must have been on your first license and therefore if you drove alone you were driving illegally (and uninsured) The wait for a test does not make it alright to do this....

I was 19 in 6th year, but anyway. I did drive unaccompanied on my first provisional licence, and I doubt you'll find anyone in the country that has a full licence and didn't, unless they didn't drive on their first provisional at all.

And one year to wait for the test is unacceptable. One MONTH is unacceptable - you can get it within days or same day in most of the world.

corktina

corktina wrote: »

absolutely...develop the school bus netwrok into a proper rural transport service......wouldnt take a lot....

True, you see those busses parked up all over the place during the day.

corktina

I'm sorry but however long the wait for a test is is no excuse for driving illegally. Unacceptable it may be, but breaking the law is not the solution.