Man dies in Garda custody

Jay D

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1230/terenure.html


scum bags

plain and simple

IRLConor

Jay D wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1230/terenure.html


scum bags

plain and simple

How do you know it was their fault? Don't jump to conclusions.

Maybe he died of alcohol/drugs complications.
Maybe he killed himself.
Maybe they beat the s**** out of him and he died of his injuries.
Maybe he died of natural causes.
Maybe he died of injuries inflicted by a third party and sustained before his arrest.

Do you have information we don't? If you don't then I'd say don't point fingers until the Coroner/Ombudsman releases more information.

Kintarō Hattori

Jay D wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1230/terenure.html


scum bags

plain and simple

I absolutely agree with the other poster. How can you jump to the conclusion that its the guards fault. Assumptions are terrible things.

Jay D

IRLConor wrote: »

How do you know it was their fault? Don't jump to conclusions.

Maybe he died of alcohol/drugs complications.
Maybe he killed himself.
Maybe they beat the s**** out of him and he died of his injuries.
Maybe he died of natural causes.
Maybe he died of injuries inflicted by a third party and sustained before his arrest.

Do you have information we don't? If you don't then I'd say don't point fingers until the Coroner/Ombudsman releases more information.

or maybe any such proof of him actually being beaten by those pigs in custody will not mean a thing when we consider the likes of Terrance Wheelock who was in good health, not a thing wrong with him when going to custody, he was never depressed about such meetings, certainly nowhere near suicidal, yet the outcome....

While I have no evidence whatsoever (let's bear in mind that any evidence will be well covered up) I certainly feel entitled to make such a conclusion, given that any investigation yet to take place regarding such incidents is flawed with corruption.

While people like you would be happy living in Disneyland when it comes to reality, I for one, would certainly take a more critical approach and see them for what they are.

TheNog

Jay D wrote: »

I for one, would certainly take a more critical approach and see them for what they are.

you are quite entitled to make a critical approach but most intelligent people would wait until the investigation or at least till all information is made public before making any type of critical analysis of a situation.

You are simply jumping to conclusions

TheNog

Jay D wrote: »

given that any investigation yet to take place regarding such incidents is flawed with corruption.

If you have evidence of corruption, then lay it for us to see. Or is it a case of you presuming there is corruption?

If the prisoner was anyway maltreated in custody then Ombudsman will find the evidence and investigate it. It is their job and it has been seen in the past that the ombudsman is eager in doing their job.

IRLConor

Jay D wrote: »

or maybe any such proof of him actually being beaten by those pigs in custody will not mean a thing when we consider the likes of Terrance Wheelock who was in good health, not a thing wrong with him when going to custody, he was never depressed about such meetings, certainly nowhere near suicidal, yet the outcome....

Just because it has happened in the past doesn't mean the entire force condones that sort of behavior never mind takes part in it.

Jay D wrote: »

While I have no evidence whatsoever (let's bear in mind that any evidence will be well covered up) I certainly feel entitled to make such a conclusion, given that any investigation yet to take place regarding such incidents is flawed with corruption.

• You have no evidence.
• You assume without evidence that any investigation will be corrupt.

and yet you still think it fair to smear the Gardai?

You don't like them and a small selection of them have done bad things in the past so you assume they're all evil. Damn, I thought I was a cynical pessimist!

Jay D wrote: »

While people like you would be happy living in Disneyland when it comes to reality, I for one, would certainly take a more critical approach and see them for what they are.

I don't think I live in Disneyland. I've dealt with the Gardai plenty of times and they have (by and large) been helpful. My main gripe with them is that they need to have higher intelligence standards for entry and more education when they're in. Most members of the force at the rank of Sgt and above have been excellent in my experience but the bottom-of-the-rung Garda has been a mixed bag. None of the Gardai at any rank that I have dealt with have been the kind of violent thug that would beat someone to death in custody nor would they condone it.

In the case you linked to, the post-mortem will be carried out by people who are not Gardai and have no motivation to cover up for them. That post-mortem will be overseen by the Garda Ombudsman who also has no motivation to cover up for the Gardai. You'd need black helicopter levels of paranoia and distrust in the system to believe that the truth won't come out.

nesf

Posts split from Cowboy Garda thread so that this topic won't lock that thread when it's inevitably taken too far.

pid()

Assume makes an ASS out of U and ME. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Turner

The days of the gardai giving serious scumbags serious hidings is gone. The scumbags know it and the gardai know it. The scumbags are becomming less afraid of the gards as a result.

In this case and we can only assume that...

This fella prob drank so much prior to his arrest combined with drugs or swallowed a heap of pills on being arrested or cheeked his gear after his arrest (shoved his stash up his arse) and died of an overdose.

Its not a weekend away at a hotel he was in, he was a criminal and a deprived individual in garda custody whos life just ran out!

Its not a nice world we live in and im surpised that from the 250+ people that end up in garda custody every day more dont die in the cells. When hospitals and ambulances wont take people the only place for them is a garda cell.

eroo

OP,do you know the circumstances of his arrest?Was he drunk/high?We all know how drugs can kill quite easily.
Also,you have no evidence whatsoever to substantiate your claims of corruption and maltreatment.Your just another Garda basher,and have no doubts about the Garda Ombudsman,they will investigate it thouroughly.In fact,they are curently investigating Terence Wheelock's death.The GOC is made up of former police officers from England,Canada,South Africa and so on..so there will be no ''cover-ups'' as you would have us believe.Also,Gardai do not cover up for corrupt colleagues..they are police officers,the vast majority of Gardai are good people..Donegal was a long time ago..things have changed

Cantab.

It won't be long before the boys in blue start doing things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXolf463YbM

keen

Chief--- wrote: »

The days of the gardai giving serious scumbags serious hidings is gone.

What makes you think there gone?

Speak to the people who work for the ambulance service who treat the "scumbags" after the beatings have been dished out and you would soon realise that the beatings still go on.

tuxy

Cantab. wrote: »

It won't be long before the boys in blue start doing things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXolf463YbM

Or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db2mgzC8f44
:eek::eek::eek:

Turner

keen wrote: »

What makes you think there gone?

Speak to the people who work for the ambulance service who treat the "scumbags" after the beatings have been dished out and you would soon realise that the beatings still go on.

Yeah im on about serious beatings that went on in the 80's and 90's when criminals were afraid of the gardai. You knew back then if you headbutted a garda or were caught after ramming a stolen car into a garda car you were in line for a serious hiding.

Im not on about injuries that people receive nowadays during a violent arrest. Police are allowed use force you know up to and including lethal force depending on the situation.

keen

Chief--- wrote: »

Yeah im on about serious beatings that went on in the 80's and 90's when criminals were afraid of the gardai. You knew back then if you headbutted a garda or were caught after ramming a stolen car into a garda car you were in line for a serious hiding.

Im not on about injuries that people receive nowadays during a violent arrest. Police are allowed use force you know up to and including lethal force depending on the situation.

The Garda aren't dishing out clips around the ear these days, beatings still go and good beatings at that.

Of course the Garda are entitled to use force when arresting people that fight back. Beatings is a seperate topic and that's what I thought we were talking about.

mike65

I expect it'll turn out he's either taken drugs or had an underlying medical condition. Young/ish men dropping dead from heart failure is'nt a shock these days.

Jay Ds insight is curious.

Mike.

utick

to be honest i feel like the general public would be better served if gardai were dishing out justice and just leave the judges out of the process, they just cost too much money and are too soft on criminals

keen

utick wrote: »

to be honest i feel like the general public would be better served if gardai were dishing out justice and just leave the judges out of the process, they just cost too much money and are too soft on criminals

Don't be silly that would never work.

Pigman II

Cantab. wrote: »

It won't be long before the boys in blue start doing things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXolf463YbM

Imagine! Beating the shít out of a guy who shot a cop in the face! It's just not not on.

Kernel

keen wrote: »

Speak to the people who work for the ambulance service who treat the "scumbags" after the beatings have been dished out and you would soon realise that the beatings still go on.

We would if we could find any... apart from the ones in Neverneverland you speak of.

TheNog

Cantab. wrote: »

It won't be long before the boys in blue start doing things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXolf463YbM

Well the commentator did say he jumped out of a 3rd floor window after shooting the cop. Maybe that's how he injured his face!!

Maybe that's why the FBI cleared the cops of any wrong doing. Tbh the presenter doesn't go into the details of the FBI investigation and maybe that's just to dramatise the story for bigger ratings.

Or maybe the cops did beat the sh*te out him but wouldn't there have been CCTV of his arrest or witnesses to say he looked okay on his arrest?

minidazzler

Cantab. wrote: »

It won't be long before the boys in blue start doing things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXolf463YbM

He shot a cop in the face he deserved worse than what he got. That little bastard could have shot the cop in the leg but he chose the face he deserves worse and so does anyone who thiinks what happened to him was unfair.

TheNog

minidazzler wrote: »

He shot a cop in the face he deserved worse than what he got. That little bastard could have shot the cop in the leg but he chose the face he deserves worse and so does anyone who thiinks what happened to him was unfair.

yeah but did you see the cop's hair cut. Maybe the perp was a barber with a bad shot?

Guy:Incognito

Jay D wrote: »

scum bag

plain and simple

I agree. Afterall, he had a number of outstanding warrants.

Cantab. wrote: »

It won't be long before the boys in blue start doing things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXolf463YbM

The sooner the better. Could he have been a bigger scumbag?


I'm all for legitimate Garda beatingvans being deployed. If judges arent goingto uphold the law then the law should be changed to allow the gard sto do it on the streets. The current pc ,softly, soflty version of policing doesnt work.

"Please come into custody Mr scumbag , drug dealing murderer" . "**** you pig, I'm going to try kick the crap out of you and as many of your collegues on the way to being dragged into custody as I can and if I'm so mu8ch as bruised I'll scream rape, and either way I'll be back on the streets in a couple of days"

utick

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0101/rta.html

another garda incident last night

Stark

Cantab. wrote: »

It won't be long before the boys in blue start doing things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXolf463YbM

If you're trying to get people to sympathise with a cop-shooting scumbag then maybe you should try Indymedia instead.

utick wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0101/rta.html

another garda incident last night

2:30am on New Year's Eve. Guy was probably too locked to realise he was out in the middle of the road and the patrol car was probably in a rush to get to some incident.

Dave!

Jay D wrote: »

or maybe any such proof of him actually being beaten by those pigs in custody will not mean a thing when we consider the likes of Terrance Wheelock who was in good health, not a thing wrong with him when going to custody, he was never depressed about such meetings, certainly nowhere near suicidal, yet the outcome....

While I have no evidence whatsoever (let's bear in mind that any evidence will be well covered up) I certainly feel entitled to make such a conclusion, given that any investigation yet to take place regarding such incidents is flawed with corruption.

While people like you would be happy living in Disneyland when it comes to reality, I for one, would certainly take a more critical approach and see them for what they are.

So therefore, ANYONE dies in Garda custody, you're going to assume that it was from police brutality. Nice logic.

utick wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0101/rta.html

another garda incident last night

Hardly related. Accidents happen. Hope yer man gets better though.

Guy:Incognito

Stark wrote: »

2:30am on New Year's Eve. Guy was probably too locked to realise he was out in the middle of the road and the patrol car was probably in a rush to get to some incident.

Why use the most likely scenario when you could have said that there was 8 gards packed into a modeo ,waving bottles of bud around, haning out the window looking for innocent people to mow down. At least it wil endeer you to the OP.:)

Stark

Stekelly wrote: »

Why use the most likely scenario when you could have said that there was 8 gards packed into a modeo ,waving bottles of bud around, haning out the window looking for innocent people to mow down. At least it wil endeer you to the OP.:)

Lol

keen

Kernel wrote: »

We would if we could find any... apart from the ones in Neverneverland you speak of.

What are you on about?

TheNog

I agree TW was not the innocent his supporters were making him out to be.

The recent death in garda custody may not be made out to be but only time will tell

seamus

Stark wrote: »

2:30am on New Year's Eve. Guy was probably too locked to realise he was out in the middle of the road and the patrol car was probably in a rush to get to some incident.

Indeed, I was driving through Harold's Cross around 3am last night, tax in front of me. Guy walking down the path on my side of the road, back to us, sees a taxi coming towards him, sticks his arm out and stands into the middle of the road, keeping his back to us. Taxi in front of me had to screech to a halt. He sat on the horn, but the guy only turned around about 10 seconds after he would have been dead.

I think it's fair to say that being hit by a Garda car late on New Year's is unlikely to be the Garda's fault...

I agree TW was not the innocent his supporters were making him out to be.

Terence Wheelock was your average piece of scum. All reports thus far confirm that he killed himself. Upsetting for the family, but there's far too much airtime being given to a small time piece of ****'s demise.

Sully

utick wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0101/rta.html

another garda incident last night

Left the pub at 2AM last night and was waiting for a taxi for a good half hour. I see young girls out on the road taking a "leak", then vomiting, then crying and vomiting again. So locked, she doesnt know whats going on.

Next I see people so drunk there jumping out in front of cars hoping its a taxi and they will get a lift. Some very VERY close encounters - they even did it to an unmarked squad car.

So, I can see this happens. Plus, the guards were flying around the place last night as there was a lot of people arrested for drink driving. There watching people get into cars around clubs/pubs - its becoming a lot more frequent.

However, whats sad is the guards (at least in the City, they do it in my hometown) are there in large numbers and dont even attempt to clear people of the road. There not busy, there just chatting to each other, or chatting to fellow drunk people having a bag of chips. Meanwhile, crowds spilling out on a busy junction in front of taxis and other passerbys.

Sully

seamus wrote: »

Terence Wheelock was your average piece of scum. All reports thus far confirm that he killed himself. Upsetting for the family, but there's far too much airtime being given to a small time piece of ****'s demise.

Looking at the wikipedia article - I think its safe to say its very suspicous and does seem like something is being covered up. Questions remain unanswered.

seamus

Sully wrote: »

Looking at the wikipedia article - I think its safe to say its very suspicous and does seem like something is being covered up. Questions remain unanswered.

To be fair, it's even noted on wikipedia that they're not happy about the neutraility of the article. The first few pages of a google are links to sites with known or obvious anti-Garda/anti-establishment agendas such as indymedia. As you would expect, there's nobody giving information in a subjective manner.

That a jury found suicide as the cause of death is sufficiently open and subjective a decision for me.

Stark

Sully wrote:

However, whats sad is the guards (at least in the City, they do it in my hometown) are there in large numbers and dont even attempt to clear people of the road. There not busy, there just chatting to each other, or chatting to fellow drunk people having a bag of chips. Meanwhile, crowds spilling out on a busy junction in front of taxis and other passerbys.

It's probably safer leaving them there and having the traffic slowed to a crawl than keeping them on the footpath where they'll jump out into moving traffic at a second's notice.

Was walking through Drumcondra at about 9PM a few weeks ago and noticed a group of twenty-something year old girls who thought it was hillarious fun altogether to run out into the traffic on the N1 causing cars to screech to a halt, then run back to the footpath then do it again about 30 seconds later.

eroo

Stekelly wrote: »

I'm all for legitimate Garda beatingvans being deployed. If judges arent goingto uphold the law then the law should be changed to allow the gard sto do it on the streets. The current pc ,softly, soflty version of policing doesnt work.

"Please come into custody Mr scumbag , drug dealing murderer" . "**** you pig, I'm going to try kick the crap out of you and as many of your collegues on the way to being dragged into custody as I can and if I'm so mu8ch as bruised I'll scream rape, and either way I'll be back on the streets in a couple of days"

If Gardai were allowed kick the **** out of you then they would be no better than vigilantes.That would be a break down in law and order leading to basic mob rule...a breakdown of justice..Also,if Gardai were allowed to kick the **** out of people,they'd be no better than paramilitaries..and what sort of recruits would you be attracting then?

I know for a fact I don't plan on joining the Gards so I can kick the **** out of people,I'm not that sort of person,and I'd imagine current Gardai are the same.

Jay D

seamus wrote: »

To be fair, it's even noted on wikipedia that they're not happy about the neutraility of the article. bla bla bla bla bla bla.


That a jury found suicide as the cause of death is sufficiently open and subjective a decision for me.

The following few details really make me hate stupid people in society who will believe evrything they are told. Complete and absolute scum who feel it is up to them to accept brutality as ok when it's done to others. I suppose some people are just delusional on one hand and full of shi-t on the other.


Inconsistencies and Matters Arising

As per normal procedure Terence should have been checked in his ‘suicide proof’ cell on a regular basis. According to the station records ten minutes before he was found unconscious his cell was inspected and it was noted that he was asleep. The Gardaí claim that in the next ten minutes he woke up, broke away the concrete around a light switch which was about two and a half feet off the ground with his bare hands and then hanged himself. The ambulance was called about 9 minutes after Terence was supposedly found in his cell. There is no explanation over what caused this delay. Likewise no one has explained why when the ambulance arrived Terence was found in a hall close to the main desk of the station and not in his cell.
Gardaí called to the Wheelock house, informed Terence’s mother Esther that her son had hanged himself and was in the southside St. James’ Hospital. These Gardaí then drove her to St. James’. They claimed not to know the direction to get there and Esther actually had to direct them. Terence had actually been brought to the much closer Mater Hospital. By the time his family had found this out and arrived in the Mater his clothing had been taken away by Gardaí.
The Garda press statement mentioned that there was no evidence of any bruising on Terence’s body which is completely contradicted by his family who saw him in the hospital, and by hospital photographs. When the family managed to get hold of the custody records the names of the arresting Gardaí had been removed. The Wheelock family have made many attempts to recover Terence’s clothes for independent forensic examination. These attempts have been continually rebuffed by the Dept of Justice.
The family’s calls for an independent investigation have been refused and instead of this the garda commissioner has appointed Detective Superintendent Oliver Hanley from Dun Laoghaire Garda Station to look into the events around Terence’s death. Hanley served in Store Street station for over fifteen years and as the family have pointed out this makes him far from independent.

WhiteWashMan

OMFG!

to the conspiracy cave, Batman!

Jay D

:rolleyes:

ya see the thing is, they are actual facts. so while a sickening amount of people are all quick to jump up and defend an organisation that is 'never guilty' on the basis of trust alone, what is said to actual facts, let me just repeat it for those glancing and typing anything in reply - facts, honest true and genuine facts that clearly make the 'official Garda report' look like a pack of lies and covering up?

Guy:Incognito

Jay D wrote: »

The following few details really make me hate stupid people in society who will believe evrything they are told. Complete and absolute scum who feel it is up to them to accept brutality as ok when it's done to others. I suppose some people are just delusional on one hand and full of shi-t on the other.


Inconsistencies and Matters Arising

As per normal procedure Terence should have been checked in his ‘suicide proof’ cell on a regular basis. According to the station records ten minutes before he was found unconscious his cell was inspected and it was noted that he was asleep. The Gardaí claim that in the next ten minutes he woke up, broke away the concrete around a light switch which was about two and a half feet off the ground with his bare hands and then hanged himself. The ambulance was called about 9 minutes after Terence was supposedly found in his cell. There is no explanation over what caused this delay. Likewise no one has explained why when the ambulance arrived Terence was found in a hall close to the main desk of the station and not in his cell.
Gardaí called to the Wheelock house, informed Terence’s mother Esther that her son had hanged himself and was in the southside St. James’ Hospital. These Gardaí then drove her to St. James’. They claimed not to know the direction to get there and Esther actually had to direct them. Terence had actually been brought to the much closer Mater Hospital. By the time his family had found this out and arrived in the Mater his clothing had been taken away by Gardaí.
The Garda press statement mentioned that there was no evidence of any bruising on Terence’s body which is completely contradicted by his family who saw him in the hospital, and by hospital photographs. When the family managed to get hold of the custody records the names of the arresting Gardaí had been removed. The Wheelock family have made many attempts to recover Terence’s clothes for independent forensic examination. These attempts have been continually rebuffed by the Dept of Justice.
The family’s calls for an independent investigation have been refused and instead of this the garda commissioner has appointed Detective Superintendent Oliver Hanley from Dun Laoghaire Garda Station to look into the events around Terence’s death. Hanley served in Store Street station for over fifteen years and as the family have pointed out this makes him far from independent.

All sounds above board to me.

Moral of the story? Dont be out stealing cars.

Jay D

Stekelly wrote: »

All sounds above board to me.

Moral of the story? Dont be out stealing cars.

you sound very intelligent.

Guy:Incognito

Jay D wrote: »

you sound very intelligent.

Thanks.

I'll be sure to put my posts in rant form in future.

Jay D

point taken and agknowledged but that taken away, the point still stands.

Kernel

keen wrote: »

What are you on about?

Oh OK, I'll spell it out... you're talking ****e you've no idea about.

Kernel

Jay D wrote: »

point taken and agknowledged but that taken away, the point still stands.

I think you have your own agenda against guards JD. You've shown it in the past, and are desperately dragging the wheelock incident into this thread to shore up your shakey as shít accusation about the guards killing a druggie in custody. :cool:

bobnalong

Pigman II wrote: »

Imagine! Beating the shít out of a guy who shot a cop in the face! It's just not not on.

I agree the man should be given a medal!

IRLConor

That Wikipedia article looks a bit dodgy to me. The "Inconsistencies and Matters Arising" appears to have been entirely brought in from a website which is far from neutral on the matter. I am not saying that they're lying, but there's a lack of proper citations and cross-referencing and it is an anarchist website which means they're already biased against the Gardai as a matter of principle. Does anyone have a link to the transcript or official ruling of the Coroner's Court? The least we can do is improve the quality of the Wikipedia article.

The Dublin City Coroner's Court is an independent organisation and the Wheelock inquest was held with a jury. If anyone wishes to believe that the Coroner (who is not a Garda) AND the jury were in league with the Gardai to cover up a murder then fair enough, but I'd call that paranoia.

It is only fair to give the Gardai the same treatment as everybody else. They are innocent unless (not "until" as many people say :rolleyes:) proven otherwise by a court. In the Wheelock case, the appropriate court found that the death was not their fault.

seamus

Jay D wrote: »

Inconsistencies and Matters Arising
bla bla bla

That's not evidence. It's hearsay and conjecture completely unsupported by any reference material or reports.

This is the thing about anarchists and anti-establishmentists. Anything whatsoever which shows the establishment in a bad light is taken as gospel.

I don't believe that every Garda involved has been truthful in the matter, but I'm satisfied given all the evidence that the guy killed himself and no-one else did. And the state and its citizens (represented by a jury) agree with me.

Dyr

Thankfully we have a garda ombudsman now, so the old "after thoroughly investigating ourselves we found we did nothing wrong, wink, wink" days ala beating false confessions out of innocent people might be coming to a close.