The bastardisation of Dublin Bus/16A route

blackbelt

I work in Dublin Airport and do the early shifts.The buses I get home are the 16A/41 or 746.The 16A leaves me closer to my house than the other two buses and is usually a 10 minute walk from my house.As I'm wrecked tired,an extra 5-7minute walk after work is not fun after spending all morning and afternoon on my feet.

This is what I'm enduring when I get on the 16A these days.The 16A route is supposed to service Cloghran (Old Airport Road),Santry,Shantalla Road,Beaumont Road and Collins Ave at the bingo hall.

On Monday,Tuesday and Wednesday,the 16A did not service Shantalla Road,Beaumont Road or Collins Ave because the bastard bus drivers are going down the fly-over by Whitehall Church.On Monday,I questioned the bus driver who then told me that he told everybody that he wasn't going to Beaumont when in fact he didn't.The same happened again on Tuesday.

On Wednesday,the driver turned right to go down the flyover.I ran downstairs not expecting this for a third time on the trot and asked him why he did not go straight.My question was met with mumbling about the "traffic".I walked that way and there was no traffic whatsoever and freezing people standing at the bus stops.

Does anybody use the 16A route and have they experienced this?They are doing these areas a disservice by not bothering to go through them when the route specifically states that the bus has to go down these routes.

I'm going to write/ring to Dublin Bus complaining.I have the rough time I got on the bus.I hope those drivers concerned get a slap on the wrist for this.

markpb

I guess the drivers are directed by the route controller to avoid Beaumont to try to stay on schedule. The junction at Beaumont House can be pretty awful and I'm sure it makes keeping the city and south parts of the route on time very hard.

It's poor of the driver not to tell people when they board or when they get instructions. At a guess, I presume you use a weekly ticket so the driver didn't know where you were going. He still should have tried to let you know though.

Stark

Even if the driver did let people on the bus know, that's not much good to the people waiting at the stops. No wonder people are loathe to use public transport.

blackbelt

I used coins.Monday,I got the bus at 2:10pm roughly and 1:15pm Tuesday.I got the bus on Wednesday at 5:30pm approx.

It happens occasionally that the route controller converses with the driver and usually the bus drivers make it very loud and clear whats happening but this has happened to me 3 days in a row with no clear informing of the route.It seems to me that some of these drivers are taking liberties with the route.

PS Beaumont junction can be a pain in the ass.They have the stop right outside the Beaumont House in front of the lights.

MiniD

This practice is not new, and not exclusive to the 16A. I often wonder what is the point in having a timetable and route map, when drivers and controllers change buses because of bad traffic or a late journey.
It's similar to drivers leaving the terminus early. Many claim to be just following instructions from the controller, which poses the question of who the bus service is actually for - passenger or controller?

Pulling a bus out of service is one thing, but pulling a bus off route mid journey to suit the controller without any notice to passengers is a disgrace. Even if the traffic at Beaumont House is bad, this should not be inflicted on passengers. Dublin Bus chose to route the 16A this way, and should run the bus regardless. Whatever about passengers waiting in the city for the bus, a thought must be spared for the passengers standing at Beaumont House waiting for their advertised service, which has now decided to bypass their stop?

I agree with Stark, it's incidents like this which force people away from using the bus.

My advice is to make a note of the times and departures involved with the 16A. If you know the bus number, include this also. Send an email to head office and the controller of Summerhill depot.

ucdperson

Do consumer authorities have no role in bus service provision? This is a case of Dublin Bus deliberately deciding not to provide an advertised service.

It hasn't happened to me on the 16A, I get off before the mentioned stops, but something similar does happen with the 79 at times. Rather than going via Heuston Station the driver will turn up through Islandbridge on to Conyngham Road. Almost missed a train once because of it. Another favourite on the same route is where the driver or controller decides not to turn on to the south quays towards Dame Street and instead goes down the north quays via O'Connell Bridge to D'Olier Street and turns to Westmoreland Street where the route terminates.

I'm guessing the reason is traffic but I know that in some of the cases with the 79 the passengers weren't given sufficient notice.

meanmachine3

i'll answer this best i can.
in the mornings going into the city centre from either the Airport or Santry between the hours of 07.30ish and 09.30ish the 16/16A do not service beaumont because of the heavy volumes of traffic on the beaumont road.

In the case of some A's not going through beaumont this would be an instruction given to the driver not to go there because in most cases he/she are runing dead late. The driver will NOT deviate from the route unless instructed. blackbelt i can assure you they are not taking liberties. most of the drivers on that route are a good bunch of lads.

on numerous occasions i have pointed out in here, drivers do not have enough time to do cross city routes.the driver only has about 1 hr 45 minutes to get from the airport to nutgrove picking up passengers all the way

There are some buses that leave the car park at whitehall church, go down collins ave. turn left onto beau. road ,turn left onto shantalla and then left again on top of the fly over heading back into town in the mornings

darkman2

blackbelt wrote: »

I work in Dublin Airport and do the early shifts.The buses I get home are the 16A/41 or 746.The 16A leaves me closer to my house than the other two buses and is usually a 10 minute walk from my house.As I'm wrecked tired,an extra 5-7minute walk after work is not fun after spending all morning and afternoon on my feet.

This is what I'm enduring when I get on the 16A these days.The 16A route is supposed to service Cloghran (Old Airport Road),Santry,Shantalla Road,Beaumont Road and Collins Ave at the bingo hall.

On Monday,Tuesday and Wednesday,the 16A did not service Shantalla Road,Beaumont Road or Collins Ave because the bastard bus drivers are going down the fly-over by Whitehall Church.On Monday,I questioned the bus driver who then told me that he told everybody that he wasn't going to Beaumont when in fact he didn't.The same happened again on Tuesday.

On Wednesday,the driver turned right to go down the flyover.I ran downstairs not expecting this for a third time on the trot and asked him why he did not go straight.My question was met with mumbling about the "traffic".I walked that way and there was no traffic whatsoever and freezing people standing at the bus stops.

Does anybody use the 16A route and have they experienced this?They are doing these areas a disservice by not bothering to go through them when the route specifically states that the bus has to go down these routes.

I'm going to write/ring to Dublin Bus complaining.I have the rough time I got on the bus.I hope those drivers concerned get a slap on the wrist for this.

Happened to me twice - same bus/same route also getting off at beaumont. They seem to go through in the afternoons though but still its a pain in the arse.

trellheim

This diversion is in fact mentioned on the webpage

http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey/viewer.asp?route=16 [ at the bottom ]

marmajam

I'm more worried about the Dublinisation of bastards.

Ste.phen

I thought the OP was complaining about the route deviation taking place in the afternoon/evening?
THe timetable does indeed show the 07.30-09.00 reroute

Victor

trellheim wrote: »

This diversion is in fact mentioned on the webpage

http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey/viewer.asp?route=16 [ at the bottom ]

Do I get the impression that these buses operate 'the wrong way'?

Flukey

meanmachine3 wrote: »

on numerous occasions i have pointed out in here, drivers do not have enough time to do cross city routes.the driver only has about 1 hr 45 minutes to get from the airport to nutgrove picking up passengers all the way

Well get the bus controllers to get on to whoever decides the times and change the timetables to allow them longer than the 1hr 45mins and put on a few more buses to fill the gap.

The other thing that happens is buses changing numbers mid-route. This evening I was in town. At around 16:45, as regularly scheduled, a 46B started on its journey, with number and destination clearly on the front. I was among the first passengers. We got to Donnybrook and we had a driver change.

When it came to the point where a 46B turns off the Stillorgan dual carriageway to head up towards Mount Merrion, it went on straight. The driver was questioned by a number of passengers as to why it was happening and they were told it was now a 46A. There were a number of disgruntled passengers, as you can imagine, that were inconvenienced by this sudden change. They all knew full well that they had got on to a 46B and even when I pointed out to the driver that it had left at the scheduled time of the 46B, he still insisted it was a 46A. It didn't matter in one sense at that stage, as we were well past the turn it had to make, but there were some very annoyed people who wanted and specifically got on to a 46B. Buses changing routes and/or numbers mid-journey and inconveniencing passengers in the process, should not happen.

shltter

blackbelt wrote: »

I work in Dublin Airport and do the early shifts.The buses I get home are the 16A/41 or 746.The 16A leaves me closer to my house than the other two buses and is usually a 10 minute walk from my house.As I'm wrecked tired,an extra 5-7minute walk after work is not fun after spending all morning and afternoon on my feet.

This is what I'm enduring when I get on the 16A these days.The 16A route is supposed to service Cloghran (Old Airport Road),Santry,Shantalla Road,Beaumont Road and Collins Ave at the bingo hall.

On Monday,Tuesday and Wednesday,the 16A did not service Shantalla Road,Beaumont Road or Collins Ave because the bastard bus drivers are going down the fly-over by Whitehall Church.On Monday,I questioned the bus driver who then told me that he told everybody that he wasn't going to Beaumont when in fact he didn't.The same happened again on Tuesday.

On Wednesday,the driver turned right to go down the flyover.I ran downstairs not expecting this for a third time on the trot and asked him why he did not go straight.My question was met with mumbling about the "traffic".I walked that way and there was no traffic whatsoever and freezing people standing at the bus stops.

Does anybody use the 16A route and have they experienced this?They are doing these areas a disservice by not bothering to go through them when the route specifically states that the bus has to go down these routes.

I'm going to write/ring to Dublin Bus complaining.I have the rough time I got on the bus.I hope those drivers concerned get a slap on the wrist for this.

Drivers are instructed to do this sometimes literally when they are on the flyover.

If they have a couple of buses stuck in beaumont road it makes no sense to pile more buses in behind them whilst it will undoubtedly will inconvenience a number of people it is nothing compared to the number of people on the rest of the route that would be inconvenienced if 5 or 6 buses arrive late over in Rathfarnham and have to be sent back out of service so there is no service on that side for a couple of hours.

Also if the buses are taking too long to get through Beaumont then the controller may only allow every second or third bus to serve that area it has to be viewed in the sense of the overall route.

I agree that people should be informed often it is hard to inform everyone some people are in a world of their own some have an ipod stuck in their ears some speak little or no English and often the driver is informed just before the diversion.

If the controller gives a lawful instruction the driver is obliged to follow it and it is not up to the driver to inform the people along beaumont road it is obviously up to the controller to organise that but they don't.

Unfortunately it is a matter of trying to provide a service in this City its not perfect but it is being done for the best of reasons.

shltter

Victor wrote: »

Do I get the impression that these buses operate 'the wrong way'?

yes they do

shltter

Flukey wrote: »

Well get the bus controllers to get on to whoever decides the times and change the timetables to allow them longer than the 1hr 45mins and put on a few more buses to fill the gap.

The other thing that happens is buses changing numbers mid-route. This evening I was in town. At around 16:45, as regularly scheduled, a 46B started on its journey, with number and destination clearly on the front. I was among the first passengers. We got to Donnybrook and we had a driver change.

When it came to the point where a 46B turns off the Stillorgan dual carriageway to head up towards Mount Merrion, it went on straight. The driver was questioned by a number of passengers as to why it was happening and they were told it was now a 46A. There were a number of disgruntled passengers, as you can imagine, that were inconvenienced by this sudden change. They all knew full well that they had got on to a 46B and even when I pointed out to the driver that it had left at the scheduled time of the 46B, he still insisted it was a 46A. It didn't matter in one sense at that stage, as we were well past the turn it had to make, but there were some very annoyed people who wanted and specifically got on to a 46B. Buses changing routes and/or numbers mid-journey and inconveniencing passengers in the process, should not happen.

I would imagine that is was a mistake I have never heard of it happening on purpose

zanardi

The irony is that the 16a was originally brought in to service Beaumont, now it's either skipping it altogether or coming fully loaded with tourists from the Airport.

The real icing on the cake is 9 to 9:30 in the morning when it's impossible to tell which side of Beaumont/Shantalla road to stand on for a 16a towards town. No wonder everyone is now walking down as far as the viscount, past where our luas stop was meant to be.

At least we're getting fit.

jd

What happens is the junction gets blocked for traffic heading south on Shantalla Rd turning right on to Beaumont Rd . Perhaps the best thing would be to ban that right turn except for buses/taxis.

shltter

jd wrote: »

What happens is the junction gets blocked for traffic heading south on Shantalla Rd turning right on to Beaumont Rd . Perhaps the best thing would be to ban that right turn except for buses/taxis.

Beaumont Rd turning into Collins ave is the main problem

jd

shltter wrote: »

Beaumont Rd turning into Collins ave is the main problem

possibly/probably- I was just giving an opinion on what I have seen on Shantalla.
jd

shltter

zanardi wrote: »

The irony is that the 16a was originally brought in to service Beaumont, now it's either skipping it altogether or coming fully loaded with tourists from the Airport.

The real icing on the cake is 9 to 9:30 in the morning when it's impossible to tell which side of Beaumont/Shantalla road to stand on for a 16a towards town. No wonder everyone is now walking down as far as the viscount, past where our luas stop was meant to be.

At least we're getting fit.

In fairness the company are using a bit of initiative to try and provide a service to the area while keeping the buses moving.

Going the Normal way during peak hours can take 30 or 40 minutes to clear the area while reversing the run the area can be cleared in 10 minutes

It is confusing for people there is no doubt and better signage would help the other confusion is that the time buses return to normal routing is determined by their departure time not the time they reach beaumont so if traffic is light and a bus gets down to beaumont quickly you can have buses on both sides of the road going to the same place

shltter

jd wrote: »

possibly/probably- I was just giving an opinion on what I have seen on Shantalla.
jd

Shantalla can be bad as well but at the junction at Collins Ave the traffic coming up grace park road fills Collins Ave so there is no where for the traffic turning right to go

AlekSmart

Quote Blackbelt : "On Monday,Tuesday and Wednesday,the 16A did not service Shantalla Road,Beaumont Road or Collins Ave because the bastard bus drivers are going down the fly-over by Whitehall Church."

"I'm going to write/ring to Dublin Bus complaining.I have the rough time I got on the bus.I hope those drivers concerned get a slap on the wrist for this." END ]

I would suggest that any complaint to ANY agency is made in somewhat less colourful terms than those seeping from beneath Blackbelt`s covers

The points which are raised by this post really do relate to important stuff,such as EFFECTIVE Bus Priority Measures being introduced and AVAILABLE in short order.

For example the same situation is in effect over t`udder side at Blackrock village where at times Drivers will be told to "go in the straight" rather than thread their buses delicately between the lines of parked cars whose oweners have just popped in to browse through the Artwork.

If Blackbelt can rein in the epithet`s then a couple of letters to such agencies as the QBN Office in Dublin City Council might bring results..

trellheim

Ha ha ha that's a good christmas joke alek

Stark

AlexSmart wrote:

For example the same situation is in effect over t`udder side at Blackrock village where at times Drivers will be told to "go in the straight" rather than thread their buses delicately between the lines of parked cars whose oweners have just popped in to browse through the Artwork.

There should be some law allowing buses to plough through cars parked on double yellow lines.

MiniD

shltter wrote: »

Also if the buses are taking too long to get through Beaumont then the controller may only allow every second or third bus to serve that area it has to be viewed in the sense of the overall route.

I find this situation unacceptable. The 16A is a service between the Airport and Santry/Beaumont. It is not like a 41, which is a direct route to the City Centre. If what you're suggesting is correct, then there could be gaps of over an hour for buses between The Airport and Beaumont. That would be a serious reduction in the advertised timetable.

If there is a problem, then would it not be better to have the early morning diversion in place throughout the day also?

blackbelt

The 16A is specifically advertised to go through these areas except at the stated times.We have the 16 bus which goes from Santry (Shanowen Road) and goes out to Nutgrove as well.I see way more 16 than 16A buses btw.

The only difference is that the 16A goes from the airport.If Dublin Bus/16A route controller is so concerned about the traffic and passengers in Rathfarnham and Terenure,they should take that into account that there is a bus (16) that goes from a closer location that could deal with the time issue more effectively.The 41 goes to Abbey St and is a more direct route and the 746 goes to Dun Laoighaire.The 41 and 746 are direct in the sense that they are specifically advertised as servicing Cloghran,Santry,Whitehall,Drumcondra etc ie turning right to go down the flyover by Whitehall Church.

I don't see why/how passengers who want to get off in Shantalla and Beaumont should be ditched at the bridge and made walk to the advertised areas.The 16 bus can accomodate for the traffic problem in my opinion.It makes more sense to have the 746 and 41 as direct routes.The 41 is very frequent in comparison to the others.

Maybe the lads who do the 16/16A routes are sound but thats no excuse for them not to make it clear when they are not going through Shantalla and Beaumont.The "announcement" wasn't made over the intercom and I certainly didn't have any iPod stuck in my ears.

It is a pain in the arse when I find myself walking from Whitehall Church to Artane after a 9 hour day at work.

PS Why don't Dublin Bus provide a bus service from the airport that services Malahide and Howth Road?

meanmachine3

PLEASE READ THESE LINES CAREFULLY.
the only way public transport is going to work in this city is if the ministers of transport and justice introduce a zero tollerence law.
what we need is a system like in london where buses have right of way. basically if you dont let them out you get 2 points and it doesn't matter what you drive be it truck car or taxi.
here you have bus lanes clogged up with taxi's that are parked. best example of this is dame street in bound the rank is from 8pm onwards and they use it as if it was a 24hr rank ,the guards do **** except "move along" if a few points went out then it wouldn't happen.
another one is Fleet street between Westmoreland street and D'olier street. this is for LOCAL ACCESS AND BUSES ONLY. right outside a garda stn and again nothing is being done to stop every joe soap using it.
from harrington street down to georges street no go area for anyone , taxi's again double and trebble parked. last buses from town not getting to o'connell street till after mid night sometimes.
bus stops right across the city being used as parking bays and everything thing else but bus stops.

the D.O.T. want to introduce a system for buses like they have on the luas. where buses would have a good run of lights as they approach them. this will only work if (A) it's enforced properly and (B) buses only.

By the way " BUSES ONLY" does not include taxi's for those of you who cant read.

rant over

blackbelt

meanmachine3 wrote: »

PLEASE READ THESE LINES CAREFULLY.
the only way public transport is going to work in this city is if the ministers of transport and justice introduce a zero tollerence law.
what we need is a system like in london where buses have right of way. basically if you dont let them out you get 2 points and it doesn't matter what you drive be it truck car or taxi.
here you have bus lanes clogged up with taxi's that are parked. best example of this is dame street in bound the rank is from 8pm onwards and they use it as if it was a 24hr rank ,the guards do **** except "move along" if a few points went out then it wouldn't happen.
from harrington street down to georges street no go area for anyone , taxi's again double and trebble parked. last buses from town not getting to o'connell street till after mid night sometimes.
bus stops right across the city being used as parking bays and everything thing else but bus stops.

the D.O.T. want to introduce a system for buses like they have on the luas. where buses would have a good run of lights as they approach them. this will only work if (A) it's enforced properly and (B) buses only.

By the way " BUSES ONLY" does not include taxi's for those of you who cant read.
rant over

On the bolded line,the perfect example I have of this is on the Malahide Road opposite Donnycarney church.There is a set of lights that are specifically placed there to give buses the right of way where there is a bus stop before the cross junction.Bastard taxi men use this as a rat run to by-pass normal traffic when the road markings state "Buses Only".

Whenever I'm driving and see Taxis do/attempt this,I roll the car just to the the exit of the corridor and cut them off there and then.

shltter

MiniD wrote: »

I find this situation unacceptable. The 16A is a service between the Airport and Santry/Beaumont. It is not like a 41, which is a direct route to the City Centre. If what you're suggesting is correct, then there could be gaps of over an hour for buses between The Airport and Beaumont. That would be a serious reduction in the advertised timetable.

If there is a problem, then would it not be better to have the early morning diversion in place throughout the day also?

No it is a service between the Airport and Rathfarnham and everywhere in between

DB have an obligation to the people in Rathfarnham who want to use the 16A to get to terenure as much as they do to people who want to get from the airport to Beaumont.

If DB allowed the entire service to get bogged down in gridlock on the Beaumont Road then they would be neglecting the rest of the people who are using the service

And this was December so it would not make any sense to implement a change for the entire route for 12 months of the year for a problem that may happen for a few hours on a few days in December.
If it was a permanent problem then it could be dealt with in such a manner but a temporary problem caused by the Christmas rush does not need an entire route change

shltter

blackbelt wrote: »

The 16A is specifically advertised to go through these areas except at the stated times.We have the 16 bus which goes from Santry (Shanowen Road) and goes out to Nutgrove as well.I see way more 16 than 16A buses btw.




As usual completely wrong

The 16 does not go to Nutgrove it goes to Ballinteer

Look at the timetable there are the same amount of 16s and 16As

The only difference is that the 16A goes from the airport.If Dublin Bus/16A route controller is so concerned about the traffic and passengers in Rathfarnham and Terenure,they should take that into account that there is a bus (16) that goes from a closer location that could deal with the time issue more effectively.The 41 goes to Abbey St and is a more direct route and the 746 goes to Dun Laoighaire.The 41 and 746 are direct in the sense that they are specifically advertised as servicing Cloghran,Santry,Whitehall,Drumcondra etc ie turning right to go down the flyover by Whitehall Church.

I don't see why/how passengers who want to get off in Shantalla and Beaumont should be ditched at the bridge and made walk to the advertised areas.The 16 bus can accomodate for the traffic problem in my opinion.It makes more sense to have the 746 and 41 as direct routes.The 41 is very frequent in comparison to the others.

Maybe the lads who do the 16/16A routes are sound but thats no excuse for them not to make it clear when they are not going through Shantalla and Beaumont.The "announcement" wasn't made over the intercom and I certainly didn't have any iPod stuck in my ears.

It is a pain in the arse when I find myself walking from Whitehall Church to Artane after a 9 hour day at work.

PS Why don't Dublin Bus provide a bus service from the airport that services Malahide and Howth Road?

As usual completely wrong



The 16 does not go to Nutgrove it goes to Ballinteer

Look at the timetable there are the same amount of 16s and 16As


The 746 comes from a different garage and has a different controller and services a different part of the City




Your problem is that you are only looking at the part of the 16 route that concerns you the controller has to look at the whole route and there is no point in having all your buses stuck in gridlock on the Beaumont road and have no service on the rest of the route.

When those buses eventually reach Nutgrove or Ballinteer they will have to be regulated to get them back on time which could mean literally no service from that side of the route for hours if you allowed all your buses to get stuck in gridlock.


As i said the driver may only have been told of the diversion just before it as such he would not have an opportunity to make an announcement and once he turns off the bridge any announcement is superfluous as it is plainly obvious that he is not going through Beaumont.


Dublin Bus applied for such a route to service the Malahide Road from the Airport and were refused permission.


BTW referring to people as Bastards who are merely carrying out their job as instructed is very insulting and does little to endear me to your plight

MiniD

shltter wrote: »

No it is a service between the Airport and Rathfarnham and everywhere in between

DB have an obligation to the people in Rathfarnham who want to use the 16A to get to terenure as much as they do to people who want to get from the airport to Beaumont.

If DB allowed the entire service to get bogged down in gridlock on the Beaumont Road then they would be neglecting the rest of the people who are using the service

Nobody is disputing the fact that the 16A runs between the Airport and Rathfarnham, but the fact is, the 16A is an advertised service which serves Santry and Beaumont. I'm not sure about you, but I don't think it's acceptable for somebody traveling from the Airport to Beaumont to wait an hour for a service which should be every 20 minutes. I also don't think it's right for drivers to change routing mid-journey without informing passengers.

Every route in Dublin suffers from congestion, but if drivers and controllers were to just skip large parts of the routes to keep times, the network would fall into chaos. If you board a bus, you expect to be taken to where it's advertised, or at least be informed of any possible changes when boarding, or through the PA system.

Of course the original poster is only looking at the section of route which concerns him. He paid his fare, and wants to travel home. The idea that this passenger should be thinking of possible passengers in Terenure while he walks from Whitehall Church is simply wrong.

I once contacted Dublin Bus a few years back about a similar problem in Tallaght, where buses on the 49 and 77A were diverting off the route and skipping Tallght Village, the hospital and the college- instead traveling up the Tallaght By-Pass to The Square. When I questioned the driver, they always blamed traffic and that they were following instructions. I contacted the depot and spoke to the manager who was very apologetic and insisted the drivers were not instructed to leave the route and investigated the matter.

I fully understand, under extreme circumstances buses may have to leave their route, but there is no excuse for not using the PA system and apologising to the passengers.

AlekSmart

A large part of the problem which affects Blackbelt and many other Public Transport users is tied up with a certain grey area in relation to what position Public Transport ACTUALLY occupies in the greater scheme of things.

Dublin Bus,with a peak operational fleet of some 1,100 vehicles is dei-facto the dominant operator and thus one would imagine deserving of all the support necessary to perform it`s allocated task.

If one scans through the usual locations such as the Dept of Transport,The DTO,The Quality Bus Network Office,the RPA,CIE and perhaps even the DSPCA one would be forgiven for thinking we had a superbly integrated and well regarded Bus Service.

The reality is different,terribly different,with each and every agency,whether National or Local having totally different priorities to those of the "Dominant Operator" (and its Customers).

The opening of the Port Tunnel demonstrated that very effectively indeed when it emerged that it was the actions of an Individual BAC route 41X DRIVER that brought the Department of Transport to the verge of administrative meltdown.

RTE`s Joe Duffy,in his interview with the driver was the only one to pick up on the incongruity of the decision to utilize a Billion € piece of public infrastructure being left to the lowest ranking in the chain.

The stern and rapid response of the Department in instructing Dublin Bus to remove the 41X from the Port Tunnel whilst it continued to deliberate upon various important matters of State is,sadly,as far as it goes in terms of being pro-active.

There is absolutely NO central plan or even agreed operational methodology between ANY of the major stakeholders in Dublin Inc...each of them exist in their own hermetically sealed Bunker,only emerging to play an occasional round of Golf with each other where major issues of the day are discussed in a convivial atmosphere.

This ensures that the Old Order is Preserveth and situations such as taking over 18months to process a VERY straightforward licence application for the new 141 Route continue unchallenged.

For anybody who is interested in how these people view their world and its responsibilities reading through accounts such as this may bring a tear to the eye....From the Dail Select Committe on Transport session 12/12/2007 Topic: EU Bus and Coach Licencing Proposals.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd: Is Mr. Ó Méalóid aware of any unlicensed operators?

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid: On the community licence side there are some. It is difficult to estimate how many because they do not tell us they are unlicensed.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd:That is the key question because there may be vehicles in the country that do not meet the standards. I am concerned about this. How does one deal with it? Is it sufficient to leave it to the operators? I do not doubt their integrity and professionalism, but we should be able to ensure they are licensed and there must be a better way to do it.

Mr. John Weafer: Under the current regime all vehicles that have a community licence must display it in the vehicle. This includes all vehicles that provide services from any EU country. Our vehicles going abroad must display this. That is a starting point for good enforcement. However, the fact that the mutual assistance provisions proposed here are vastly improved on our current situation will mean a better range of information will go automatically between the member states. This will make it easier for member states to keep a watching brief on operations in their own countries and because registration can be deployed on an European basis, one could have targeted enforcement by a number of states over particular periods or target particular types of services.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd: I accept what Mr. Weafer is saying. My concern is that cowboy operators might be getting away with it. When the Department has become aware of unlicensed operators, have court cases been initiated or what process, if any, has been followed?

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid: The RSA is responsible for the enforcement of the licensing rules.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd: However, the Department identifies whether operators are licensed.

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid: The RSA has a hotline

---

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd: When the Department believes an operator is unlicensed, what does it do?

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid: We have regular contact with the RSA on all these issues. The RSA has a hotline which members of the public can contact if they think an operator is illegal.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd: How many has the Department been made aware of? This is a critical question.

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid: I could not put a figure on it.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd: Mr. Ó Méalóid said he was aware of some.

Mr. Micheál Ó Méalóid: We are aware they exist, but we do not have numbers because they do not tell us they are operating illegally. Figures I have heard from the RSA's transport office suggest approximately 20% of the market could be illegal.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd: That is a serious issue.

Chairman: Could Mr. Weafer address Senator Donohoe's questions?

Mr. John Weafer: If this goes through and cabotage is introduced, it will give passengers greater options for going abroad.

There ye have it...."We dont know how many illegal operators there are because they won`t tell us....they wont even use the hotline to let us know of their own illegality".

€36 BILLION of Transport 21 funding is in the hands of people like the above listed to disburse.....And you wonder why the 16 won`t go through Beaumont..... :eek:

trellheim

The opening of the Port Tunnel demonstrated that very effectively indeed when it emerged that it was the actions of an Individual BAC route 41X DRIVER that brought the Department of Transport to the verge of administrative meltdown.

Ah go on and tell us more ... what

administrative meltdown

was there ?

but that's nothing to do with the flyer bus though is it ?

AlekSmart

Not a bit Trellheim....The flurry of paper shuffling that swept through the Department of Transport was not due to the 41X actually using the DPA Tunnel at all.

What ruffled the starched collars of the Senior Civs was the manner in which an individual BusDriver had apparently taken the iniative on the fly

Worse still,when the Liveline programme initially failed to get much response from the Department it became clear that the PASSENGERS were also throwing their tuppence worth in to support the Drivers actions...:eek:

This,more than anything else is what reduces the Senior Civil Servants to quivering lumps.
The very thought that groups of people,commuters in this case,were usurping the long standing authority of a Government Department is simply the stuff of revolution and not to be tolerated...:eek:

The arrival of the Swords Express after a suitably protracted gestation period is incidental in all of this.
Like much else in the public transport debate,it serves the Administrators to have us all believe there is some huge and unsolvable problem which renders Public Transport administration an impossible task.

Anybody familiar with the (Well Planned and Catered for :rolleyes: ) expansion of North County Dublin in the past 2 decades will surely agree that present Bus Based public transport levels are SERIOUSLY deficient in both Quality AND particularly Quantity.

One of the best methods of reducing the critical levels of private car usage is the provision of new,comfortable,reliable and affordable public transport routes.
The Swords Express is but ONE of these AS IS an expanded 41X operating through the DPA Tunnel also.
Additionally the much mulled over new 141 route utilising the Swords Road QBC,would I wager be another mega route worth fast-tracking in the same manner as suggested in the new Critical Infrastructure Bill....Will this happen....to paraphrase oul Jim Gogarty..."Will it Fcukk"...:D

The awful whiff of Public Transport Bolshivism which Liveline lifted the lid on was swiftly put down by a few diplomatic telephone calls to Dublin Bus Head Office resulting in the equally swift restoration of the 41X Status Quo and the removal of that 25 minute benefit to the increasing numbers of commuters who had already heard of it through the grapevine/jungle drums.

There is VAST potential for Public Bus Services to secure an increased share of North County Dublin`s daily commute but not a hope of any progress under an administrative reigeme which considers 18 months an acceptable period to consider a straightforward licence application for routes such as Swords Express or the Bus Atha Cliath 141 service :mad:

Victor

meanmachine3 wrote: »

another one is Fleet street between Westmoreland street and D'olier street. this is for LOCAL ACCESS AND BUSES ONLY. right outside a garda stn and again nothing is being done to stop every joe soap using it.

A lot of them are actually cops, not on duty.

meanmachine3

Victor wrote: »

A lot of them are actually cops, not on duty.

so all the taxi's that use this are guards driving taxi's when not on duty. when a guard is of duty they are under the same laws as a civilians when driving.
as the sign says buses and access only
all other traffic is supposed to go up westmoreland street and down d'olier street then turn left onto the back of pearse street.
but heyyyyy who's going to stop them.

shltter

MiniD wrote: »

Nobody is disputing the fact that the 16A runs between the Airport and Rathfarnham, but the fact is, the 16A is an advertised service which serves Santry and Beaumont. I'm not sure about you, but I don't think it's acceptable for somebody traveling from the Airport to Beaumont to wait an hour for a service which should be every 20 minutes. I also don't think it's right for drivers to change routing mid-journey without informing passengers.

Well if all the buses are piled up in gridlock then NO ONE will have a service.

Is is wrong yes
is it within Dublin Buses power to prevent gridlock in the run up to Christmas? NO

So what can they do make the most of a bad situation by trying to ensure that the service keeps moving.

Will that discommode some passengers ? unfortunately YES


As I already explained this is a fluid situation the decision to divert is usually given to the driver at the last minute based on the information currrently available to the controller.
Literally while he is on the fly over.

This is an example of how it goes

Controller will call driver before or shortly after his departure and tell him that he may have to divert and to call the controller when he reaches a certain point say the Omni.
When the driver calls the controller will call the buses in front to see how they are faring are they stuck is the traffic moving how long it took them to clear beaumont.
He may also call a stance inspector who is monitoring the traffic situation.

Based on that he will call the driver back and give a direction yes or no.

At this stage the driver will in all likelyhood have passed the last stop before the flyover. To use the PA requires the driver to stop it would be nonsensical to stop on the flyover and block traffic to announce something that will be plainly obvious in a couple of seconds.

MiniD wrote: »

Every route in Dublin suffers from congestion, but if drivers and controllers were to just skip large parts of the routes to keep times, the network would fall into chaos. If you board a bus, you expect to be taken to where it's advertised, or at least be informed of any possible changes when boarding, or through the PA system.

Yes that is why this is only done when the congestion gets so bad that it would cause the entire route to collapse
This is a last resort

MiniD wrote: »

Of course the original poster is only looking at the section of route which concerns him. He paid his fare, and wants to travel home. The idea that this passenger should be thinking of possible passengers in Terenure while he walks from Whitehall Church is simply wrong.

I was explaining that the controller is looking at the bigger picture I do not expect him to care less about people in Terenure no more than people in Terenure who get a service because this happened give a **** how far he had to walk
Do you want to bitch and moan without an explanation of what and why it is happening or would you prefer an explanation

MiniD wrote: »

I once contacted Dublin Bus a few years back about a similar problem in Tallaght, where buses on the 49 and 77A were diverting off the route and skipping Tallght Village, the hospital and the college- instead traveling up the Tallaght By-Pass to The Square. When I questioned the driver, they always blamed traffic and that they were following instructions. I contacted the depot and spoke to the manager who was very apologetic and insisted the drivers were not instructed to leave the route and investigated the matter.

How could the Manager know what instructions had or had not been given unless he had the route controllers for that day and time standing right beside him at the moment you rang.

The Manager is not in touch with day to day decisions that are made by a controller. Controllers have to make decisions on the fly they don't clear it with management first or necessarily afterwards. In fact the controller may not even work in that depot or ever speak to the Mangager.

The other reason why a route could be diverted particularly around Tallaght is because of health and safety issues for example a spate of stone throwing or worse.

MiniD wrote: »

I fully understand, under extreme circumstances buses may have to leave their route, but there is no excuse for not using the PA system and apologising to the passengers.

Ideally the PA should be used however it is not always possible or practical.

MiniD

Shltter, if you read the first post, you will see this diversion happened 3 days in a row. Now, it is possible, but I doubt the controller radioed to the driver while he/she was approaching/on the flyover, on each day.

Nobody suggests stopping a bus on the flyover to use the PA, but even when the bus did stop to let passengers off, there was no apology for the sudden diversion. According to the OP, the response from the driver was a "mumble of something about traffic".

Your problem is that you are only looking at the part of the 16 route that concerns you the controller has to look at the whole route and there is no point in having all your buses stuck in gridlock on the Beaumont road and have no service on the rest of the route.

This was your response to Blackbelt, who had to walk because his route was diverted without any warning. I pointed out it's not his responsibility to think about commuters across the other side of the city. If you wish to accuse me of "bitching and moaning", fine, but my point is valid and I don't think how this passenger was treated was fair and professional.


On my point about a similar situation in Tallaght, I provided the manager at Ringsend with the bus details and route number etc. he contacted me a few days later and explained that on checking with inspectors/controllers, the drivers not been instructed to leave route and apologised. On the days in question, other buses were operating as normal through the village, so it was just a case of random buses coming from Old Bawn Road taking a left turn up Tallaght By-Pass to the square. It was not an issue of vandalism, just drivers taking a short cut.

I think one of the serious points here is the lack of customer service to passengers. If the OP had been advised of the diversion or had it announced on the PA with an apology, then he may not have felt so annoyed. There are some bus drivers who are excellent in communication with their passengers, but so many are not. Over the three days in question, not one driver on the 16A told passengers of the route change.

Unfortunately, passengers are not aware of how a bus shift operates, they are not aware of bad journey times for routes, they don't know about a shortage of buses in a certain part of the city, which is why when a problem affects their journey, as in this case, communication is vital. Failure to explain the problem leaves the passengers annoyed... as in this case.

blackbelt

Shltter,the point is that whilst driving over the flyover,there was no communication between the driver and passengers of this change.BTW,I couldn't give a damn if I'm endearing you to my situation or not.I'm not looking for sympathy,more like answers and a discussion.I have every right to be angry and use that term.I paid my fare for a service and it was not delivered and I was inconvenienced.Had that been communicated to me,I would have thrown 20cent less into the coin slot when I boarded the bus.20 cent may not break the bank but when DB advertise a service at a price,you expect it to be delivered.

My point is that,if a possible change is not communicated effectively and in time,it should not go ahead.Sometimes I'm groggy from working those hours and don't expect to turn right on the flyover.then there is potential I could miss the stop on the flyover and be even further from my destination.Thats what fuels my anger added on to the extended walk.

I also don't think MiniD is "moaning and bitching".His points are valid and fair.If the route controller wants to change the route,he should communicate this with the passengers as well as the driver doing so beforehand or time sufficiently before the diversion.Communicating this over a walky talky when no passenger can hear this mid-route is simply not good enough.Had I been told at Omni shopping centre in Santry about the change,I wouldn't be as angry but the drivers also told me that they made an announcement when they clearly didn't.

Also,the 16 bus has Grange Road on its display when going southbound.Now my geographical knowledge of South Dublin may be scattered but I know damn well that Grange Road (whether partially or fully) is in Rathfarnham.

Also,the 16A is held up with tourists with their baggage etc.This can also further delay the trip but if you advertise a route it should be serviced.Why should those people in Terenure/Rathfarnham be accomodated and given preference to those in Shantalla and Beaumont.I've walked from the flyover to Beaumont Road and seen passengers literally freezing at bus stops waiting for a 16A at half 5 in the evening.I suppose you think its fair they are left out in the cold so that those other poor souls in Terenure are picked up 5-10 minutes earlier.

Bottom line is,those days there was no heavy traffic in Shantalla/Beaumont Road.Even if there is traffic,its just too damn bad.Everybody on that route should be given the advertised service.Maybe if DB minimally re-allocated some 130s and 46A buses to other stations that could increase the frequency of this route,we wouldn't have this problem but the 16/A is still fairly limited.

PS this happened to me again on Sunday or Monday without any communication yet again.

End of rant.

dub_commuter

On my daily route operated by Harristown we have had diversions three times due to traffic that was excessively bad in the last year or so. Each time the driver has given a full announcement over the PA and has also gone upstairs in one case to tell all the passengers what the situation was.

This is the only garage I have ever seen do this in, upon contaact to Dublin Bus for the friendly nature of the driver and the fact he was very polite to everyone and very communicative where others in the past on other routes had not been, I was informed they were trained to give passengers information and also on dealing with customers, does this not happen in other garages?

blackbelt

Funny you should bring this up as a few weeks ago I was on a 42 or 43 (I think) going into the city centre.The driver was told that there was heavy traffic on Talbot Street and to turn right on Buckingham St and then turn left to go past Cathal Brugha Street and left onto Marlborough St.

This change was not communicated by the driver and 15 mins delay was added on.In the four times that I have been inconvenienced on the 16A route,no communication whatsoever was given.While you cite the Harristown depot drivers as being polite and communicative,I think its imperative and worthwhile and no harm for all bus drivers in each depot to undergo further training in this aspect of the job.

Also name badges would be a nice addition to the DB uniform now that I think of it.

dub_commuter

Not sure if you are referencing my post but I believe 42/43 is Clontarf operated there may be one or two Euros from Harristown though.

Yes I do agree though they all should be given this type of training. Some of the operators in the UK even have customer service academies, if you don't pass the training you don't go out on the road!

shltter

blackbelt wrote: »

Shltter,the point is that whilst driving over the flyover,there was no communication between the driver and passengers of this change.BTW,I couldn't give a damn if I'm endearing you to my situation or not.I'm not looking for sympathy,more like answers and a discussion.I have every right to be angry and use that term.I paid my fare for a service and it was not delivered and I was inconvenienced.Had that been communicated to me,I would have thrown 20cent less into the coin slot when I boarded the bus.20 cent may not break the bank but when DB advertise a service at a price,you expect it to be delivered.




My point is that,if a possible change is not communicated effectively and in time,it should not go ahead.Sometimes I'm groggy from working those hours and don't expect to turn right on the flyover.then there is potential I could miss the stop on the flyover and be even further from my destination.Thats what fuels my anger added on to the extended walk.

I also don't think MiniD is "moaning and bitching".His points are valid and fair.If the route controller wants to change the route,he should communicate this with the passengers as well as the driver doing so beforehand or time sufficiently before the diversion.Communicating this over a walky talky when no passenger can hear this mid-route is simply not good enough.Had I been told at Omni shopping centre in Santry about the change,I wouldn't be as angry but the drivers also told me that they made an announcement when they clearly didn't.

Also,the 16 bus has Grange Road on its display when going southbound.Now my geographical knowledge of South Dublin may be scattered but I know damn well that Grange Road (whether partially or fully) is in Rathfarnham.

Also,the 16A is held up with tourists with their baggage etc.This can also further delay the trip but if you advertise a route it should be serviced.Why should those people in Terenure/Rathfarnham be accomodated and given preference to those in Shantalla and Beaumont.I've walked from the flyover to Beaumont Road and seen passengers literally freezing at bus stops waiting for a 16A at half 5 in the evening.I suppose you think its fair they are left out in the cold so that those other poor souls in Terenure are picked up 5-10 minutes earlier.

Bottom line is,those days there was no heavy traffic in Shantalla/Beaumont Road.Even if there is traffic,its just too damn bad.Everybody on that route should be given the advertised service.Maybe if DB minimally re-allocated some 130s and 46A buses to other stations that could increase the frequency of this route,we wouldn't have this problem but the 16/A is still fairly limited.

PS this happened to me again on Sunday or Monday without any communication yet again.

End of rant.

**** off and be angry then you want to call people doing their job bastards hope you have to walk every day

Some of the stuff you post is the stupidest **** i have seen in years

The 16 and the 16a do not got to the same place what you said is the equivalent of saying the 27 and the 27B go to the same place its all in Coolock

You complain that you are not getting the service advertised and suggest that somewhere else in the city should be deprived of its service for your benefit oh yeah that would be really fair.

The 16/16A is one of the largest routes in the city it has about 60 duties a day the 130 has about 20.

The whole city needs more buses taking them from one area to service another is not a solution getting more buses is the solution

Public transport in Dublin can only carry about 25% of the people who need to get around at peak time moving buses around will not improve that getting more will.

Write to FF and the PDs ask them where the extra buses that they have promised numerous times are.


And no I don't think it is fair but I know why it is happening and I know that calling people bastards will not solve it

meanmachine3

blackbelt there aint no way on this damn earth i'm going to be wearing a name badge.
i'l get out my magic wand and fix everything up.you really think it's that easy taking a 130 of the clontarf route to put on a 16 just to bring you home.
thats what the euro's out of harristown do, they beef up the routes were there are problems.
you honestly think i'd leave my route and go onto another you've got another thing coming .oh by the way i dont work the 130 in case you ask. it's just an example of leaving my route and my garage to go to another route and garage. if i wanted to do that i'd go to horristown.
by the way your not the only one put out, there are tens of thousands across dublin just like you if not worse of than you. your blessed you only have to walk about 10 mins if your put out i know other areas were people have to walk miles if their bus doesn't show up

blackbelt

Not shocked by your response one bit shltter.So the answer to my post is telling me to f off and be angry.This thread is called The bastardisation of dublin bus and in true form you bus drivers/conductors whatever are proving the thread title is somewhat correct.I'm calling drivers bastards because they are NOT DOING THEIR JOB.Thats the whole point of this thread.

Not being told there is a route change or diversion is simply ignorant,unprofessional and negligent and provides no customer service at all.Imagine if I was an old man in his 60s,70s or even 80s upstairs on a double decker bus and he has to get up and try and hurry down a bus that is swinging right to go down the flyover unexpectedly.Accident waiting to happen lads.Only a matter of time and when it does happen there will be uproar if a serious injury is to occur.

Boohoo I couldn't give anymore sympathy to passengers in Terenure if people in Terenure are delayed because everybody on the route is going to be delayed.Equal treatment should be given to all passengers concerned.What makes them so special?Don't see why the Terenure passengers should be so priveliged to have a bus come 5 minutes earlier while Shantalla and Beaumont are left waiting and freezing in the cold waiting for up to 40 mins.

I thought your slogan advertises that DB is "changing with the city" well whoop-dee-doo-dah.The more people are put into jobs that they are not competent to do in the first place is indicative of how Dublin Bus and its employees are changing with the city.You only have to look at other sectors of public service and the government to realise this.Maybe you fall into this category because I have valid points and all you can do is tell me to **** off.Pig ignorance on your part.The whole concept of constructive criticism is wasted on you lot.Fcuking with passengers is not what DB is supposed to be all about but I see this happen on this route on a regular occurrence lately with other passengers going in the same direction disgruntled that a change was made and that it was not communicated.

Telling me that you hope I have to walk everyday is childish,spiteful and petty but if you want to play that game I'll play it and play it better.Its the only language some of you drivers understand I suppose.I hope YOU have to walk.Yes thats right.Then you might be able to work off all those jam donuts and double mocha lattes that you and your colleagues consume regularly.Why don't you work at 5am til 2pm,get on a bus that changes mid-route WITHOUT any informing by the driver and then make a valued comment.See how you feel about that.

Some DB drivers and controllers are akin to some of our taxi men who go the routes they want just to suit them.DB cutting the route just to be "on schedule" and our taxi drivers who go the long way just to take ashort cut while running up the meter.

The 16A I got left at the stated time of 14:05 and was making nice progress,so the idea of traffic and putting the journey back on schedule when it was on schedule in the first place is irrelevent there.Probably wanted to reach the teminus early in order to smoke their brains out.There was no reason to change route without informing passengers.

You can't defend your companies incompetency.Customers who make complaints have valid opinions on service and whether the quality of service is deemed good enough or not,acceptible or unacceptable.False advertising that is.Take your criticism on the chin.Whether or not you are directly or indirectly responsible is irrelevent because DB is there to provide an advertised service.If DB can't "change with the city" and provide more buses to an expanding and congested city,I suggest that the public transport sector be open to competition from private companies etc.Meanmachines point on people who are worse off than me does not put my situation into perspective.All it does is further highlight the folly of your company and its inability to service the city and how it remains the same while the city changes.

On the subject of name badges,why not?Taxi men are instructed by the regulator to have ID.Some other lower profile jobs who deal with the public are made to do the same by the hierarchy in their company.I don't see why DB drivers should be exempt.The uniform does look incomplete without it and an abusive or not so nice driver should be able to be identified should a passenger have a complaint about a particular driver.

Shltter,I suppose you don't get mad when you pay for a service that was advertised only to be left disappointed.Gobsh1te.

Carawaystick

The Consumer protection act 2007 makes this practice illegal and a criminal offence. Dublin bus advertise a route and then change it after taking a passengers money. this would clearly mislead an average consumer and so is illegal.

read
http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Learning_Zone/Consumer_Booklets/Advertising_booklet.pdf
page 5 outlines how advertising ( i.e. Timetables) could be misleading.

page 6 outlines the law and clearly states that misleading advertising is illegal.

Calina

Please calm down folks. There is no need to get personal or indeed, start swearing at each other.

meanmachine3

blackbelt, i hope you dont deal with the public with an attitude like that. personally i take offence to you last post .if you got the bus i was driving with that attiude you'd be hauled of just as quick and i'd make sure you'd never get on another bus that i'd drive.
you "couldn't give anymore sympathy to passengers in Terenure if people in Terenure are delayed because everybody on the route is going to be delayed".well i'm sure they're thinking the same thing about the northsiders.
but hey thats life
Alot of D.B. drivers welcome the thoughts of privatisation for the simple fact it will be a right kick in the arse for most people and i'm one of those that cant wait either.
look at the privates now, cutting services after peak times. putting injunctions in place so people cant get a better bus service.
most people who deal with the public dont get near the amount of abuse we get, also if case you haven't been in the real world for a while it's very easy to identify a driver of a bus without taking his name.but i'll leave that one for you to figure out.

you seem to have it in for shltter but what have you got to say about this
"your blessed you only have to walk about 10 mins if your put out i know other areas were people have to walk miles if their bus doesn't show up"
i didn't see anything in your earlier post.
i'm puzzled blackbelt,you say you work in the airport, the planes are nearly as bad as buses for being late at somepoint in time.when i go on holidays i'll be sure to have a go at the airport on this site/formn because my plane would be delayed or missing or whatever. after all this is commuting and transport and the airport does provide a transport service?

shltter

Calina wrote: »

Please calm down folks. There is no need to get personal or indeed, start swearing at each other.

I wondered how long it would take once i started being rude and aggressive this thread that refers to people doing their job as Bastards and the first post calls bus drivers bastards

But not a whisper apparently that kind of abuse of posters here is fine.

If you are concerned about the language change the name of the thread and at least try and be a little consistent. Its a bit late warning about it now