Arm the Gardai?

timmywex

Most detectives units are trained in uzi's, but only carry them when say they are going on an escort of alot of cash without the army or when escorting explosives.

Also, alot of plain clothes gardai are actually not detectives, many normal gardai will be assigned plain clothes for a few months and do detective activities with a detective but are not armed. There is a suprisingly small number of detectives (excluding specialist units) in the country as a matter of fact

JonAnderton

In the US army's trial for a pistol to replace the 1911 back in the early '80's, the Sig Sauer P226 only lost out to the Beretta M9 on Price. (If it had won, I'm sure it would have been a lot more popular). The US Navy adopted the P228 for its aviators and the SEAL's were supposed to use them prior to the introcudtion of the HK SOCOM.

The US Secret Service carried the P228 for years and has only recently been replaced by the P229. The FBI issued the P226 to it's agents before going over to the S&W 10mm. When this was found to be rubbish, they went back to the Sig. Only recently have they began to go over to the Glocks.

SIG SAUER was recently awarded a two US government contracts. One is for the the United States Coast guard and they will be replacing the Beretta 9mm. The other contract is for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Office of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)

Some UK forces use the Sig Pro.

ANyone confirm what Primary weapon they going to get to replace the Uzi. I heard it's the MP7???

CLADA

JonAnderton wrote: »

ANyone confirm what Primary weapon they going to get to replace the Uzi. I heard it's the MP7???

Widely reported that MP7 is already on issue to ERU since earlier this year.

fishdog

The P226 is much better than the 6 shot pieces of ****e that are out dated by about 15 years

Yes, but that is not saying much. I used them a bit as well, hated them!

Btw,the P226's are used by the Rangers,so they must be reliable

Yes they are reliable. So are Rugers, Berettas, Glocks, CZs, H&K even the old Smith & Wesson revolver was reliable.

Sig Sauer make some fantastic firearms. My point was the double action on this model makes it unsuitable. Anyone that has shot pistols in double and single action would know what I mean.

USP's are now being used by Defence Forces and from what I have heard they are quite good

I dont think so, but I may be wrong. The H&K USP is fantastic.

SIG SAUER was recently awarded a two US government contracts. One is for the the United States Coast guard and they will be replacing the Beretta 9mm. The other contract is for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Office of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)

Yes because Sig make some of the best pistols in the world. I have used many fantastic Sigs. They are also expensive at over €2,000
However the double action only Sig 226 issued to some gardai here is sh!te. If you had used both types you would know what I mean.

Dave!

Think ye'r getting off the point there lads! I'd say the last few posts are better suited for the Shooting forum

CLADA

I hear what you are saying about double action/single action on the Sig fishdog, and agree.
However the double action being issued to regular detectives may be down to safety and keeping things simple.

For example, any Garda used to carrying a .38 S&W will be familiar with the drill of loading, aiming and firing.

Double action Sig although a semi auto pistol will be pretty much the same principle, the DA/SA Sig will introduce the practice of decocking.

Its just an opinion, but they may be trying to keep things simple bearing in mind that whichever version you have your first round will always be double action.

fishdog

Think ye'r getting off the point there lads! I'd say the last few posts are better suited for the Shooting forum

Sorry! We are not allowed to discuss firearms used for anything other than sporting use in the shooting forum.

Dave!

Didn't say that! But the topic is "should the gardai be armed?", not "what should they be armed with?", and that's probably more pertinent, and indeed interesting, than the latter IMO.

fishdog

Didn't say that!

I know you didnt. Read my post, the mods for the shooting forum did.

Have a happy christmas:D

Shield

fishdog wrote: »

I know you didnt. Read my post, the mods for the shooting forum did.

Have a happy christmas:D

But the mod for this forum didn't! I'm happy for you guys to keep posting away as it's all relevant to the thread title. I don't see any problem talking about different types of firearms, and the possible benefits or drawbacks they would pose to officers.

Just as long as we remember there is a Shooting forum if we are going to start comparing guns just for the hell of it.

And finally, the thread title is "Arm the Gardai?" which does leave scope for discussion on which type of sidearm would be more suitable and why.

eroo

Sig P226 has 15+1 round capacity and Glock has 17 standard with possible options of 19 to 33 rounds...either of those are much much better than a 6 round revolver.

Also,for the Gardai that are armed,should they not be better equipped than the crims??

This one is for JonAnderton!,
What sort of 'tools' are criminals usually found in possession of in your line of work?
Do you feel aduaqately armed to deal with these suspects?

Btw,Merry Christmas everyone!

fishdog

Sig P226 has 15+1 round capacity

This is about average for a full size pistol.

and Glock has 17 standard with possible options of 19 to 33 rounds

The 33 round magazine makes the gun alot bigger and therefore inpractical so it would never be used by gardai (I would imagine). Nearly all modern full size service type pistols are reliable and have similar capacity.

...either of those are much much better than a 6 round revolver.

Either would be better than what they had, but I would imagine that capacity would be less important to the gardai than accuracy.

What sort of 'tools' are criminals usually found in possession of in your line of work?
Do you feel aduaqately armed to deal with these suspects?

I would be interested in this also.

From talking about arming the gardai to friends and relations the general feeling is that uniformed gardai should not be armed, but they agree that specialised armed garda units are needed far more of these units now than ever before. At least members of these units would have made a conscious choice to be armed and would not have this decision forced upon them.

JonAnderton

What sort of 'tools' are criminals usually found in possession of in your line of work?

They tend to use whatever they can get their hands on. Usually it's converted blankfirers and the like or stuff thats been brought in from eastern Europe (if it's that easy to smuggle in people, how hard is it to bring ina few guns). Scarily enough though, every now and then a Mac 10 is found. A couple of years ago a container lorry with tyres on board was stopped at customs and found to have 50 Mac's concealed in the tyres. They reckon that was only half the shipment and it was destined for Lambeth, South London??? Shotguns are still used a bit as well.

It's not the guns that are the problem for them to get, it's the bullets. They're often converted 8mm blanks or homemade 9mm rounds made by some crim armourer.

The Kit we have is ideal for what we do. The Glock and the MP5 are extremely reliable and very, very accurate and easy to use. Our holsters are chosen for reliability, ease of use and retention capabilities. We also use the G36 for certain operations, and of course have the Taser option as well.

The most important thing is the training and subsequent refresher training. I believe the Garda are building an establishment like what we got at Gravesend. The more people you, the more refresher training you need, thats more abstractions from normal duty and of course, more money.

dudara

As an average member of the public, I wouldn't feel comfortable with armed rank and file Gardaí. I think that, in general, the Gardaí do an excellent job, and they do this mainly without firearms.

I am all in favour of specially trained armed units, who are responsive and readily deployed when required. After all, given the state of the country, it would be naive to say otherwise. These people are correctly trained, familiar with their weapons and are an important part of a modern police force.

We are incredibly lucky in this country that the regular Gardaí are not armed and that the sense of community-orientated policing is largely maintained. In my eyes, arming the rank and file would signal a major psychological shift which would then trigger more aggressive responses from everyday criminals. I'm not talking about gang criminals here, I mean the more average criminal. If a Garda is armed, they will feel the need to be armed too.

Einstein

without doubt I feel the Gardai should be and have the right to be armed.
It's the typical Irish way of not moving on with society. Just because we didn't need to arm them 50 years ago, doesn't mean that we still have to follow that procedure hen gun crime is rampant in our country. I mean look how hard it was for them just to get stab vests...it's ridculous.
Whatever about shoving handguns in everyones pocket, start with the likes of Taser's or even rubber bullets.
What modern armed criminal is going to stop when the garda shouts stop, knowing that they can probably out run them. But knowing that they can be taken down from a distance might make em think twice bout it.

eroo

It's the typical Irish way of not moving on with society

Society?What do you mean?That we should move on to become a gun culture?
Gun crime is not an epidemic here or in UK,so just because our society is different to US or Holland,does not mean we should change.

The GS and UK forces(sorry,services!;)) are renowned worldwide for their ability to police with a a police force that is majority unarmed.Should we change this simply because other countries have armed police...?

Einstein

eroo wrote: »

Society?What do you mean?That we should move on to become a gun culture?

Divers wrote: »

without doubt I feel the Gardai should be and have the right to be armed.

Whatever about shoving handguns in everyones pocket, start with the likes of Taser's or even rubber bullets.

read posts properly before responding to them.

eroo

without doubt I feel the Gardai should be and have the right to be armed.

Whatever about shoving handguns in everyones pocket, start with the likes of Taser's or even rubber bullets.

Yes you just stated they should be armed..but then you say not with handguns..but this thread is asking about arming GS with lethal firearms,not TASER's.TASER's are an option but that is not answering the original question completely.You say they should be armed..but why?
You contradicted yourself immediately by saying that they should not be given handguns;
''Start with the likes of TASER's''.Then what..give them guns eventually??Why not just give them guns first??

JonAnderton

As stated, Tasers are another tactical option. If you're going to a call where a bloke is armed with a gun, you need a gun as well, until such time that a less lethal option is required ie to cover the arrest.

Against knives, they're perfect but 50,000 wont stop a 9mm

eroo

Jon,
how many police officers are there in the Met?How many of those are armed?(if ya happen to have those figures handy!ha)

thanks

CLADA

JonAnderton wrote: »

I believe the Garda are building an establishment like what we got at Gravesend.

Not exactly like it Jon, hopefully it won't have the fresh local smell:D, if you know what I mean?;)

metman

eroo wrote: »

Jon,
how many police officers are there in the Met?How many of those are armed?(if ya happen to have those figures handy!ha)

thanks

The Met has about 32,000 police officers. I think about 7000 of which are authorised to use firearms.

A number of specialist units have a firearms capability in the Met. This includes armed response teams, territorial support group serials, diplomatic protection officers, royalty protection teams, flying squad officers, special branch and some surveillance teams.....amongst others.

Einstein

eroo wrote: »

but this thread is asking about arming GS with lethal firearms,not TASER's.

No its not

Dave wrote:

Gardai - do ye WANT to be armed? what about your fellow Gardai, have they indicated that they want to be armed, or would they prefer the rank and file to be unarmed?

No mention of lethal firearms there. I stand by my post.

I don't feel the Gardai are trained well enough to be given the power of a gun. Army personnel aren't trained for years then given a gun after being on the field for x number of years.
Armed training is something that should be integrated into the system slowly, almost as in day 1 of templemore bootcamp. as opposed to gardai just being handed a gun with minimal practice.

It's not all about how to shoot a gun,

Anyone remember the time they got the new baton? 80% of them were just issued it when they turned up for work with no formal training or anything.

I'm not saying this would happen with guns, but I still don't feel the arming of the Gardai with lethal firearms is something that can just be done overnight.

JonAnderton

Metman's summed it up above. There are quite a few officers autorised to carry but aren't as many on the street's and any particular time as it sometimes appears. Walking around Central London you see armed coppers everywhere for obvious reasons but I spoke to an officer who was comming to the end of her probation and was working in an outer London borough and didn't know who CO19 were as she never had any involvment with them at all. Only thing she could remember was a 'talk from some bloke at Hendon who showed us some guns'.

Not exactly like it Jon, hopefully it won't have the fresh local smell, if you know what I mean?

Ah, you been there CLADA...

eroo

Army personnel aren't trained for years then given a gun after being on the field for x number of years

?

ALL Gardai came out of Templemore with basic training on Revolvers in the past,due to the Troubles and massive amount of armed robbery's.
To be fair,it may be beneficial to have every Garda trained in the use of a side arm,but the chances of uniformed Gardai needing to use firearms are few and far between.I mean,it's not everyday uniformed officers deal with armed crims.

Again,I think armed Gardai at present need better training(DDU's mostly),facilities,weapons etc.At the moment,Gardai that are armed face enough problems due to lack of^^^,so we should focus on already armed officers and how to get them to the best standards...after all,they have to be able to back up unarmed officers

JonAnderton

I don't think you could train someone on how to use a firearm, even something as simple as a Glock and how to shoot it at training school and then not give them very regular refresher training. You really need to be getting on the range at least once every couple of months... at least. You'ld be surprised how easily people forget simple drills and how your shooting can deteriorate without regular practice.

If you had regional units working a 5 week shift pattern each team could have four shifts dedicated to training. Rotate them between weapons/range work, tactics training, legislation and policy/First Aid,etc and the odd day where there's no training and the crew go out as extra patrols. First aid and the policy days wont be needed every rotation so that team could do extra patrols or range work. That'll be decent refreshers at least once every 5 weeks. Have a couple of each team qualified as RO's, don't have to be full firearms trainers, just enough for the safety aspects. Every now and then the team could have a jolly to the central training establishment where the vehicle drills and large scale exercises, etc can be performed and as other teams from other regions would also be there, a chance to cross train with other officers...

the locust

I think its a bit stupid that our detectives (DDU) get pulled away from detective work to do things like armed posts etc... We need ARV's.

I also agree that they could do with an overhaul of training, to pass the firearms course you only have to get 65% to pass and then you can carry a FA in plainclothes which is a recipe for disaster.

I think if more Gardai were trained in firearms on a broader scale. The overall level of training in a lot of areas would improve. It would have to. Lots of stuff is quite lax and sloppy, but when you are issued a gun, your procedures and training have to be up to scratch.

the locust

"Anyone remember the time they got the new baton? 80% of them were just issued it when they turned up for work with no formal training or anything."

Thats not true they all did a baton course before being allowed to carry them

Einstein

the locust wrote: »

Thats not true they all did a baton course before being allowed to carry them

Every garda in the country did a baton course?

I think not.

the locust

Yes.
You're not allowed an ASP baton until you've undertook and sucessfully passed the course. They are very strict and its mandatory. Its a national police service not the lebanon. Where did you get a statistic like 80%? Thats absurd.