The EU, in your opinion, Good or Bad for Ireland?

delta_bravo

NordicDiver wrote: »

Been to Norway ?

That is a rather irrelevant statement. Especially since Norway are not a member of the EU. You should at least educate yourself on the EU before you make an opinion.

Stephen

^^ I think that was his point.

Thirdfox

While Switzerland and Norway are not part of the EU they are ruled in fact if not in principle by the EC due to their proximity to union. I think it's better as a small country to be on the inside with some say than on the outside (where we are still at the mercy of the big countries and without any say).

Also - these countries are all governed by the ECHR too - so legal problems (if you see them as problems) will still remain even if Ireland leaves the EU. We would have to leave the Council of Europe too (an inconceivable idea really).

Overheal

Jumpy wrote: »

Why is it still such a hole then?

Terry wrote: »

How many cars are in your driveway?

Come back to me when the shít hits the fan.
Then you'll know what a hole is.

prendy wrote: »

ireland would be alot worse place than it is now without the EU...
every major piece of infrastructure built in the last 20 years is part funded by the EU..
we wud still be the s**thole people were fighting to leave in the 80's. The EU has meant alot of jobs in this country...free trade etc.

Its a hole for a lot of reasons I suppose, but what are you using as the scope of your question? Its full of little skanger kids? Your house looks like crap cos you dont buy paint? The weather is foul? Crime?

Perhaps you should go visit a "Wealthy Country" besides Ireland and have a proper look around: everywhere has its fair deal of ****e. For instance, just about anywhere you go in the States, its completely fabricated. Architecture? Lol; everythings a box. And you cant buy a house if you sold your spare organs. Education? You'd have to sell cocaine for finance.

The average Irish home has what, 2 cars? 2 Televisions? People go out about once or twice a week? Your neighbours actually talk to you without suspecting you of being a crook or a terrorist? Your skanger kids can get a second chance in cheap-as-hell education schemes? And oh yes, not to mention every public works notice you've seen in the last 10 years has been part-EU funded. Soon enough driving from Limerick to Galway will be a piss, Ennis will be de-strangled, and you'll be able to go from coast to coast on the one motorway (eventually) all thanks to the EU.

I cant bad-mouth the EU: for me its the difference of paying 1,000e a year for my degree instead of paying $35k a year for the same degree in the USA.

whatawaster

The EU has helped make this country what it is today, it's been fantastic and we owe them so much.

That said, I wouldn't be against leaving it now. Any potential economic downturn we go through won't be made any easier by the fact that we have little or no control over monetary policy.

Susannahmia

Of course it is. The Eu was one of the main (if not the number one) catalysts for the Celtic tiger.

constitutionus

Eh, lads. the EEC and later the EC made us what we are.

The EU stuck us with a european central bank that controls our interest rates and is indirectly responsible for the stupid levels of house prices in this country . keeping the rate low helped france and germany to get their act together economically but gave feck all regard to how it affected us hence the housing boom and subsequent 100% loans the banks gave out.

if the irish central bank hadve controled interest rates it'd be well into double digits to control house price inflation. and you could still get a gaff for 3 times your wages or not at all.

remember the ECB only put rates up to control inflation in germany. they'll be quite happy to leave 4 million property fetishes here without their shirts if it benefits the big two.

the EU as it stands is not in the best interests of ireland as thanks to NICE the things barrelling down the road to a superstate. quality majority voting and ehanced co operation essentially setting up a two tier community overturning the union of equals we've had since '73. christ the 10 accession countries are STILL second class citizens now as only 3 countries will allow their people free movement.

to my mind the projects gone far enough and is transforming into something thats not in the national interest of irish citizens. voting yes to the up coming referendum will essentially render the irish constitution redundant as it will take second place to the EU "treaty" (see constitution in eveything but name). and that boys and girls will be the end of our annoying right to vote in referendums on issues.

bertie himself said it last year "this referendum will be the last in a genreation!" and theres only ONE way that can happen.

but hey thats just my opinion

knird evol

Mike Funnelly wrote: »

I was reading some of the threads in AH about 'Do you class yourself as a Republican?, and it struck me that although I would class myself as a Republican ie. I believe in the Republic and that we should govern ourselves, we are becoming part of a European "Super-State", but that we are starting to lose some of the advantages that remaining a republic would give us, such as control over Central Bank Interest rates, being obliged to implement laws coming from Brussels which are not in our best interests. That being said there is no denying that we have done extremely well from being part of the EU, but I feel that we should start asking ourselves " is being a member of the EU in the best interest of Ireland as a Republic and us as a people".

There was no need to type all that, you could just post a link to your sin fein web site

It's been good so far, but I'm unsure if further integration will be of much benefit to us.

Mike Funnelly

knird evol wrote: »

There was no need to type all that, you could just post a link to your sin fein web site

What kind of a post is that, knird evol???

Just because I say I believe in the Republic and that we should govern ourselves, thereby classing myself as a Republican, that automatically makes me a member of Sinn Fein. Sure a couple of years ago, Bertie announced that Fianna Fail are the true Irish Republican party, type "Fianna Fail Irish Republican party" into google and whats the title of the first link returned. Are you therefore implying that every Fianna Fail supporter and member, secretly desires to be a member of Sinn Fein?? This is exactly the type of narrowminded political thinking that dominates this country.
If you had read my post, you would have seen that my opinion is that we are conceding too much of our power and law making to Brussels, to the country's detriment, Brussels only acts in the interests of the Big 2 - France and Germany, especially with regards to Finance.

Your post wasn't even on the topic of the thread, so if you are going to post, post relevantly.
And, if you must know knird evol, I vote for Fine Gael.

Sonnenblumen

Mike Funnelly wrote: »

Whats your opinion on the EU good or bad for the country?

It's like asking someone if they like breathing?

It depends on your outlook, ie, if you want to die stop breathing will get you there. On the otherhand, if you like living, well keep it up as long as possible.

Hard to imagine the country surviving outside the EU. I mean its in a sorrowful state as it is. The island of miseries and this year has been much worse than many before.

RandolphEsq

I would be a huge supporter of the EU, and in particular the ''United States of Europe''. That is the ultimate goal of the Eu; that we shall all live as one nation, as one group of people.
The EU will of course go through highs and lows to achieve this but we have to make sure that people don't jump ship during the bad times. It would be beautiful for humanity if a one world could be achieved. The EU provides a model to attain this.

knird evol

Mike Funnelly wrote: »

What kind of a post is that, knird evol???

Just because I say I believe in the Republic and that we should govern ourselves, thereby classing myself as a Republican, that automatically makes me a member of Sinn Fein. Sure a couple of years ago, Bertie announced that Fianna Fail are the true Irish Republican party, type "Fianna Fail Irish Republican party" into google and whats the title of the first link returned. Are you therefore implying that every Fianna Fail supporter and member, secretly desires to be a member of Sinn Fein?? This is exactly the type of narrowminded political thinking that dominates this country.
If you had read my post, you would have seen that my opinion is that we are conceding too much of our power and law making to Brussels, to the country's detriment, Brussels only acts in the interests of the Big 2 - France and Germany, especially with regards to Finance.

Your post wasn't even on the topic of the thread, so if you are going to post, post relevantly.
And, if you must know knird evol, I vote for Fine Gael.

alright. i owe you an apology then. The view on the EU with be identical to theirs, republic references, incorrect conclusions. If someone did come from that position it would be better if they declared that, nothing necessarily wrong with supporting Sinn Fein.

Capt'n Midnight

NordicDiver wrote: »

Been to Norway ?

Agree with Mike Funnelly.

Ireland out of EU!

Norway , you mean the one with lots of Oil and hydroelectric power and substainable forests. We are one of the most oil dependent economies on the planet. Even with the economic boom of the 60's our main export was people. In the 80's if you didn't know someone or have a top notch degree then there was a good chance you had to emigrate if you wanted a job in your chosen tehcnical field

also I'll say again most of the laws on health and safety and working time have come from the EU
btw: the data protection act came because of the US but it's so watered down

SimpleSam06

cazzy wrote: »

If we didnt join the EU the Tiger economy would most likely never have happened and we would still be emigrating ourselves.

Overheal wrote: »

thanks to EU backing its grown into one of the wealthiest countries on the continent.

cazzy wrote: »

Yeah all the american and foreign multinationals only came here cause we were in the EU, we then offered tax breaks

whatawaster wrote: »

The EU has helped make this country what it is today, it's been fantastic and we owe them so much.

Yeah, just a quick point there folks, the EU had little or nothing to do with the tiger economy. That was caused by historically low interest rates caused by (9-11 / tech stocks crash, take your pick), which enabled us to go on a borrowing spree unseen before or since. Added to that the 10% corporate tax rate, which if tax harmonisation comes into place (an EU intitiative) will be gone, along with about 85% of our industrial base, and we have a not so rosy picture.

Don't get me wrong, the EU is responsible for a lot of good around the country, the disgrace is that very few infrastructural improvements were made without their assistance - Bertie and the boys were too busy feeding at the trough.

whatawaster wrote: »

That said, I wouldn't be against leaving it now. Any potential economic downturn we go through won't be made any easier by the fact that we have little or no control over monetary policy.

Wrong, I'm afraid. If we had control over our interest rates we could reduce them to lessen the blow to the many many people who owe money on mortgages. Instead these people will be sitting at home, not spending money, and driving the country straight into a full blown recession.

xOxSinéadxOx

constitutionus wrote: »

Eh, lads. the EEC and later the EC made us what we are.

The EU stuck us with a european central bank that controls our interest rates and is indirectly responsible for the stupid levels of house prices in this country . keeping the rate low helped france and germany to get their act together economically but gave feck all regard to how it affected us hence the housing boom and subsequent 100% loans the banks gave out.

if the irish central bank hadve controled interest rates it'd be well into double digits to control house price inflation. and you could still get a gaff for 3 times your wages or not at all.

remember the ECB only put rates up to control inflation in germany. they'll be quite happy to leave 4 million property fetishes here without their shirts if it benefits the big two.

the EU as it stands is not in the best interests of ireland as thanks to NICE the things barrelling down the road to a superstate. quality majority voting and ehanced co operation essentially setting up a two tier community overturning the union of equals we've had since '73. christ the 10 accession countries are STILL second class citizens now as only 3 countries will allow their people free movement.

to my mind the projects gone far enough and is transforming into something thats not in the national interest of irish citizens. voting yes to the up coming referendum will essentially render the irish constitution redundant as it will take second place to the EU "treaty" (see constitution in eveything but name). and that boys and girls will be the end of our annoying right to vote in referendums on issues.

bertie himself said it last year "this referendum will be the last in a genreation!" and theres only ONE way that can happen.

but hey thats just my opinion

D
E
A
D

O
N

leninbenjamin

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yeah, just a quick point there folks, the EU had little or nothing to do with the tiger economy. That was caused by historically low interest rates caused by (9-11 / tech stocks crash, take your pick), which enabled us to go on a borrowing spree unseen before or since. Added to that the 10% corporate tax rate, which if tax harmonisation comes into place (an EU intitiative) will be gone, along with about 85% of our industrial base, and we have a not so rosy picture.

that's such a single minded post....

if i were to answer fully i'd be here all day. but the EU was essential for laying the groundwork for the boom, grants, free trade. also interest rates would never have been as low as they were if we weren't part of the eurozone, the levels of demand were so high... it's the fact we were lumped in with a lagging France and Germany that facilitated this...

liberty 2007

Mike Funnelly wrote: »

What kind of a post is that, knird evol???

Just because I say I believe in the Republic and that we should govern ourselves, thereby classing myself as a Republican, that automatically makes me a member of Sinn Fein. Sure a couple of years ago, Bertie announced that Fianna Fail are the true Irish Republican party, type "Fianna Fail Irish Republican party" into google and whats the title of the first link returned. Are you therefore implying that every Fianna Fail supporter and member, secretly desires to be a member of Sinn Fein?? This is exactly the type of narrowminded political thinking that dominates this country.
If you had read my post, you would have seen that my opinion is that we are conceding too much of our power and law making to Brussels, to the country's detriment, Brussels only acts in the interests of the Big 2 - France and Germany, especially with regards to Finance.

Your post wasn't even on the topic of the thread, so if you are going to post, post relevantly.
And, if you must know knird evol, I vote for Fine Gael.

good for you!

Terry

liberty 2007 wrote: »

good for you!

Shut up.

SimpleSam06

leninbenjamin wrote: »

that's such a single minded post....

How so, I said the EU was responsible for a lot of good. Just not responsible for the "Celtic Tiger".

leninbenjamin wrote: »

if i were to answer fully i'd be here all day. but the EU was essential for laying the groundwork for the boom,

What groundwork, did they send us a few hundred thousand construction workers in anticipation of the boom? Or maybe you are referring to our still third world level infrastructure? And having lived in the third world for quite some time, I know whereof I speak.

leninbenjamin wrote: »

grants

You haven't got the total amount of grant money sent by the EU as a percentage of GNP handy, do you?

leninbenjamin wrote: »

free trade.

If free trade was the only thing that mattered, US companies wouldn't have bothered their arses relocating to Ireland. The main reason they came here was the very low corporate tax rate, which, by the way, annoys the hell out of both the EU and the US government.

leninbenjamin wrote: »

also interest rates would never have been as low as they were if we weren't part of the eurozone, the levels of demand were so high

What levels of demand? What makes you think Ireland would have been excluded from lower interest rates since banking and economics are global systems?

EdgarAllenPoo

The only people who really continously benefit from our EU membership are farmers.

In relation to currency, we get screwed over when other eurozone countries economies start going down the crapper. At least with the IR£ we could sink or swim on our own. We always had a good exchange rate against the US$ and our exchange rate against the British pound has gotten worse since we joined the € (slowly improving).

Another point is that if we weren't in the EU we wouldn't have to suffer (directly) from their interest rate hikes, they would have the same delayed/distant effect on us as what's happening in the US economy.

constitutionus

Deleted User wrote: »

It's been good so far, but I'm unsure if further integration will be of much benefit to us.

i get labled as an isolationist nutter for essentially saying this. whats been bugging the hell out of me about this treaty is no one's been able to tell me what we get out of it. most of the reasons i hear tend to come from the "ah sure europes been great for us in the past" and " its your duty as a good europen" camp

i voted no to NICE because i didnt want a two tier europe where some countries were more equal to others but even i will concede we got access to 10 more countries where we could get cheap dental work and hordes of gorgeous eastern european women. what the hell do i get out of this one?! its all bleeding stick and no carrot.

less vetos, no comisioner and ambiguous constitutional standing

worse ive heard sod all about what the futures got install because as far as i can see nobody knows whats gonna happen.

the other treaties had some merit,theres nothing here. voting for that is just nuts if your looking out for irelands interests. i mean honestly, who gives up power and influence for nothing

SimpleSam06

GDM wrote: »

The only people who really continously benefit from our EU membership are farmers.

War proofing, its gotta be done.

GDM wrote: »

In relation to currency, we get screwed over when other eurozone countries economies start going down the crapper.

A weak currency is actually a massive advantage for your exports, see China for reference. Unfortunately we have no real exports, since Bertie and company were too busy spending on the public sector to encourage any domestic industry.

spank_inferno

I think its been very positive.
The EU developed a lot in its role & impact since the days of just being a common trade area.

I think many people here might feel that the likes of Norway & Iceland have it right, ie: Being part of the EFTA rather than the EU.
But I prefer being a full member, its been positive not just in terms of money but also for travel, culture & the environment.

I am slightly concerned with the future direction of the EU.
While a superstate isnt ever likely I feel that we dont need to give over
any more (in terms of voting weights)etc.

thanks

liberty 2007

When Ireland joined the EEC first, we hade high expectations, Tax harmonisation (cheep cars). Some markets, particularly in food, were opened up to us but that would have happened anyway as world trade expanded. The reality of the first 20 years of EEC membership was recession
The troubles in the north were only a couple of years old and there high hopes that Europe could help solve it. They never lifted a finger and the conflict lasted for another 25 years. The only outside influence that got involved was the US.

Since we joined first, the total amount or funding received was no more then 20 billion euro. That’s less then 600 million P/A. Helped pay for a few roads, particularly those expensive signs they put up everywhere telling us about it. Now we’re spending our own money fixing them and building some decent roads.
On the other hand, the value of fish taken from our previously owned territorial waters, is well in excess of a 100 billion euro. Now Irish fishing boats are restricted from fishing these waters because of shortage of stokes.

The celtic pig! I mean tiger! That got started in the early 90s was down to two main industries and fuelled by massive borrowing due to our lack of control of interest rates.
These industries were the high tech and the growth in tourism. So the question is, this depend on our membership of the EU? I don’t think so. Several large US companies (not European) came here because of our low tax rate, available and educated, English speaking work force. They’re now moving on to cheaper, educated available in eastern Europe, China and India. So when did China and India join the EU?
Tourism, well I was in Spain before they joined the EEC and the drink was twice the size and less then half the price as here. They had a booming tourist industry, all you did was book your holiday, get on the plane, land, show your passport and have a great time.
They did do a few things for us, like all those new laws and regulations. Particularly the ones that helped close down all those small business that couldn’t conform to these regulations.

leninbenjamin

liberty 2007 wrote: »

Since we joined first, the total amount or funding received was no more then 20 billion euro. That’s less then 600 million P/A. Helped pay for a few roads, particularly those expensive signs they put up everywhere telling us about it. Now we’re spending our own money fixing them and building some decent roads.
On the other hand, the value of fish taken from our previously owned territorial waters, is well in excess of a 100 billion euro. Now Irish fishing boats are restricted from fishing these waters because of shortage of stokes.

good point actually... but firstly: I'm curious, is that 20 billion in nominal or real terms? secondly: the Irish fishing industry committed suicide in the run up to accession. for tax and other reasons the true extent of catches were never ever fully reported (something still quite rampant today apparently), so when the govt. went trying to get an estimate of how much damage opening our waters would do to our industry they honestly had no idea of the true extent of our fishing industry. that's only something that emerged in hindsight. no one in authority was seemingly ever told of the potential of Irish fishing grounds and certainly the benefits from fishing were not being accrued across society to the same extent as the EEC grants when they came in. fishing in Ireland was a potential indigenous industry we lost, but no one but the fishing industry can really blamed for this at least from what I've been told.

what we could (and should) do now however is develop the fresh water fishing tourism industries... however that would mean coming down hard on the farmers for polluting the water ways... which wont happen with our current spineless shower in govt. who've continually shied away from any responsibility on the pollution issue...

SimpleSam06

liberty 2007 wrote: »

These industries were the high tech and the growth in tourism.

Tourism accounts for maybe 6% of the economy. Nope, this Celtic tiger is pretty much down to us selling each other houses at a higher price for the last eight years or so, and then topping up that loan. This should also give you an idea of how far things might fall. As for high tech, that brought some people a steady income, but can hardly be held responsible for the immense amounts of "free" money floating around. Oh and by the way, what exactly is going to pay for all those great public service salaries, benefits and pensions now the tax receipts on house sales have flattened?

liberty 2007 wrote: »

They’re now moving on to cheaper, educated available in eastern Europe, China and India. So when did China and India join the EU?

Actually many of the medical companies don't give a monkeys about labour costs, its such a minimal part of their expenses anyway they could be paying twice as much and still be billionaires before Sunday. Dell and those, well we'll see, but its not looking good.

liberty 2007 wrote: »

They did do a few things for us, like all those new laws and regulations. Particularly the ones that helped close down all those small business that couldn’t conform to these regulations.

What are you talking about? The greatest threat to small businesses I can see is Dunnes.

odyssey06

cazzy wrote: »

If we didnt join the EU the Tiger economy would most likely never have happened and we would still be emigrating ourselves.
Whether thats a good thing or not is personal opinion.

We didn't join the EU though, we joined the European Economic Community. Totally different animal. The EEC was a good thing for Ireland, and certainly helped the 'Tiger' to grow, but there were lots of other steps required aswell- a sane government economic policy (dating from 1987); a young, educated English-speaking workforce.

If membership of the EU (or EEC) automatically led to tiger economies, why don't we see every other EU country, or even formerly poor EU country, having a tiger economy?

On balance, I would say the changes brought in by the transition to the EU (as opposed to the EEC) have been bad for Ireland.

Mike Funnelly

Exactly, at the start the EU was good for Ireland, and the other countries because it promoted and aided the development, of the countries and allowed free trade, there wasn't much interference in the ways the countries governed themselves and this is what I agree with.
What I disagree with though, is the way the EU are issuing Laws and have control over the interest rates, as they do not act in all country's best interests. As far as i can see they as trying to create a "super state", which I hate the Idea of, " The United States of Europe" or "The USE", which I will call the USE-LESS.