Running a marathon with no specific trainng

brianon

--amadeus-- wrote: »

No offense but thats selective science. If I went to any school in Inishowen (Donegal) I would find that between 25 and 50% of the children were called Doherty. I could therefore assume that up to half of all Irish children based on my sample are called Doherty.

And I'd be wrong!

A few people on a crossfit board saying that they run huge distances in fast times based only on short "tabata" runs does not turn decades of sports science over. Indeed most of them seem to have an endurance background and will already have made the physiological adaptations needed to handle endurance events.

I have read a number of books on marathon running and nowhere are short, sharp intervals recommended for marathon runners at any level. They simply do not help. Longer intervals for experienced runners yes. Short bursts for a first timer? No

Think about it - how will sprinting flat out for 20 seconds help you run at 60% effort for 4 hours?

Alright I ain't gonna try to argue as my knowledge just isn't there I'm afraid.
So we can just add me to the short list of test subjects

Reasonable time target as well by the way, achievable - what is it based on? How long are your training runs taking and have you raced any shorter distances?

Based on the running I've been doing and have done in the past.
I've not raced any distance since '03. Ran Longford half 1:50 and Dublin half 1:45 but thats a long time ago.

More recently my training runs have been (that I've timed)...15.5 (2:15) & 10k (50:30).

Based on this I think I can look for a sub 4 but with the hills :eek:!!! ... who knows.

--amadeus--

Cross-post. I just read through that article you linked to. The marathon guy the use an example was running up to 30 miles per week. That's pretty much a normal training session and most runners will see similar time drops in their 2nd / 3rd marathons. He's actually pretty standard and by no means unique enough to claim that crossfit is turning endurance training upside down.

It would be interesting to know the authors background because a lot of what he claims as unusual (strength, recovery and energy) are standard in any training plan. I'd also like to know why he is so dismissive of periodisation (since this is a cornerstone of endurance training and the Kenyans won't train any other way, for example).

And this whole "metobolic pathway" thing is so much mumbo jumbo. The whole talk of teaching muscles to use oxygen effectively is based on old and now disputed science (the cardiovascular / anaerobic model). A newer theory that fits the facts more cleanly is the Integrated Neuromuscular Recruitment Model (look for it on Google books) so I'm not buying the science behind it either.

But each to thier own and it's an interesting experiment!

brianon

Appreciate all the input guys. Only 10 weeks to go now so we will see soon enough if this makes or breaks me

brianon

brianon wrote: »

Starts this Monday. Here is week 1.

MON
1. 4x1k at less than best 5k pace with 2 minutes rest between each 1k.
Evening
2. CrossFit: Heavy Session - (Deadlift, Squat, Clean, Snatch, Bench) < 10 Reps 3-5 sets

TUE
1. Tabata Run. 8 Sets (20 sec/ 10 sec). 12% Grade.
Evening
2. CrossFit: Metcon.

WED
1. 8k Run. At best half marathon pace or faster.

THU
1. CrossFit: "Angie" @ 60%.
Evening
2. Tabata Run. 8 Sets (20 sec/ 10 sec). 12% Grade.

FRI
1. CrossFit: Oly Day.
Clean
Snatch
Jerk
Box Jump
Burpees
Man Makers (16kg per DB)
*Medium Weights*

SAT
1. 15 Mile Run.

SUN
1. 5x1k @ 10 seconds below 5k pace. With 2 minute recovery.
Evening
2. Strength recovery. Basic innervation exercise based around hips.Do 3 sets to burn.

Ok...here is how week 1 went...near enough to plan.
MON
1. CrossFit: Heavy Session - (Deadlift, Squat, Press). 3 Sets (Reps10/8/3)
Evening
2. 3x1k at less than best 5k pace with 2 minutes rest between each 1k.

TUE
1. CrossFit: Metcon. Can't remember now exaclty what I did. Took 25 minutes + warm up.

WED
1. 8k Run. At best half marathon pace or faster.

THU
1. CrossFit: "Angie" @ 60%. 60 Pull Ups, 60 Push Ups, 60 Sit Ups, 60 Squats.

FRI1. CrossFit. Eh...again took about 25 + warm up. Was something like ...
5 x {Row 400m, 5 Pull Ups, 10 Weighted Box Jumps, 10 Push Ups, 2 ManMakers (11kg per DB)}.

SAT
1. 16.2 Mile Run. (6 laps of a 2.7m hilly course). Time: 2:13:02
*Felt ok. Was starting to get a little stiff but not too bad.

SUN
Rest

Had to scale back a bit due to not having the physical time. This week will be similar but have an 18miler planned on a very hilly course in Wicklow

brianon

Week 2 done and dusted. Good week. Again, not all to plan but close enough.

MON
p.m. Indoor Soccer

TUE
p.m. 2x(6x400) (1:30 RI)
2:30 RI between sets.
Pace range was : 1:33 to 1:36 per 400m

WED
a.m. Rowing (E=Easy, H=Hard) *Numbers are minutes.
1E, 1H, 1E, 2H, 1E, 3H, 1E, 4H,
1E, 3H, 1E, 2H, 1E, 1H, 1E.
5.5k in total rowed.

p.m. CrossFit: Metcon.
"Tabata Something Else"
PullUp/PushUp/SitUp/Squat

THU
a.m. Core work.

p.m. 8m Run.
2 miles easy + 3 miles @ short tempo pace + 1 mile easy
Easy miles were 9min miles. the 3 miles at short tempo total was 21:10.

FRI
Rest

SAT
a.m. 18 Mile Run.
Was a VERY hilly (some serious hills here) run in Wicklow. Great practise for Connemara. One v.tough hill @ 11mile mark was 1.3 miles long.
Was a slow run. Set a early slow pace as knew the run was hilly. 2:46 total.

SUN
p.m. Light Crossfit Session.
4 Rounds of …
2 MM (16kg DBs/No Thruster)
5 Push Up, 10 Calf Raise
10 Lunge (16kg DBs)
10 Burpee, 5 Dips
10 Squats (16Kg DBs)

The 18 miler gives me great hope that if I can stay injury free the marathon should be ok. The hills on that run were damn tough and I got through them.

--amadeus--

Well done - an 18 miler on hills at this stage is a good sign that you'll be able to cover the distance on the day, especially as it was hilly.

The only concern at this stage is pacing. Did you track your HR on the run? How did you feel - do you think you could have run further or faster?

brianon

HR? no.
Felt I could have gone further yeah.

Went out at a deliberate slower pace knowing it was so hilly. By the end I was getting a bit stiff but for sure I could have gone further.

Pretty happy now alright. 8 weeks more training left and now have some experience of what Connemara will be like.

Manged to keep a steady pace throughout. Most miles were pretty close in terms of timing.

--amadeus--

The fact that the miles were close on time is good. It would be interesting to know the extent of your "HR drift" - in other words how much harder were you working to maintain that pace towards the end of the run. It would also be good to know where your HR was at relative to the HR you'll be at during the race - in other words could you sustain a faster pace for that length of time.

Good going though!

thirtyfoot

--amadeus-- wrote: »

The fact that the miles were close on time is good. It would be interesting to know the extent of your "HR drift" - in other words how much harder were you working to maintain that pace towards the end of the run. It would also be good to know where your HR was at relative to the HR you'll be at during the race - in other words could you sustain a faster pace for that length of time.

Good going though!

Great going alright (maybe the bastardised Cross-Fit No Running But Actually There is Running Program works) but I wouldn't be too worried about "HR drift" and focus more on his comment that he could have gone 'further for sure', a much better indicator in my book and added to splits being very consistent. HRM are grand but a limited tool that too many people become too reliant on instead on listening to their body or even their mind. Are there studies done on "HR drift" as I'd be interested to see it, my father is a big believer of HRM as a coach. I know in multi-day, multi-event races (like the Eco-Challenge) that there is "HR Drift" as the event progresses but in fact its the HR drops throughout the event.

I do sessions where if I had a HRM I'd be dialing 999:eek:

brianon

Tingle wrote: »

...(maybe the bastardised Cross-Fit No Running But Actually There is Running Program works)...

Perfect description

Although in fairness I never said there would be NO running. Just not too much

--amadeus--

I haven't come across any formal studies on HR Drift as such but it would be interesting to read (or research). It does seem to be one of those unquestioned beliefs though, I suppose we all know that if we measure our HR over a set distance and a given time we will see the average HR fall as we get fitter.

Hypothetical example though - a runner has a max HR of 200. Starts a marathon well within themselves and at a target pace of (for example) 8 min/miles and with a HR of 150. If after 15 miles fatigue sets in and his HR "drifts" by 5 beats per mile then by mile 20 he is working at over 87% of his MHR (rather than a comfortable 75% at the start). That level is unsustainable regardless of how strong the legs are feeling. Knowing at the end of a 20 mile training run that your heart has increased by an average of x beats per mile helps you plan your strategy accordingly. That said I don't think that is an issue here - the crossfit training means he has good CV fitness and it's his legs that need the conditioning.

Bang on about people depending on HR monitors too much though - in fact all the gadgets and gizmos (GPS watches, virtual training partners, nike / iPod link ups, HR monitors) tend to be used as crutches to a greater or lesser extent. No technical t-shirt or gee-whizz trainers ever completed a marathon on thier own!

brianon

Week 3 done and dusted. More of the same really.
Mid week run was 6 miles. Saturdays run was 20 miles.

A bit stiff by the end but not too bad once I got a cold bath/shower. Felt a little stiff yesterday but almost 100% fine now.

Time was 2:57 so pretty slow. Heading for sub 4 hours alright but Connemara will be a lot tougher. Could have run it quicker for sure.

In fact I am finding that if I go too slow (about 8:45+min mile pace) it seems tougher than when I run what seems a more natural slightly faster pace. But I don't want to be in 10 miles into a marathon to discover I've gone out too quick

--amadeus--

Another good run, the consecutive weeks of long runs will be doing you the world of good (it's as if you're on a proper schedule!! )

Everyone has a natural pace that they feel comfortable running at and running more slowly than that (on your long runs for example) does feel weird at first. Keep with it though - you really don't want to set off to fast on the day and ruin all the good work so far.

brianon

Well. A long time since I posted but with only a few days left I'll do a little summary.

9 weeks of training....
Total Mileage thus far: 171m (maybe 3/4 more this week).

Complete rest on Week 5. Resumed training Week 6 but only ran once on that weekend. This was due to a foot injury...or at least the start of one and I decided to rest rather than risk it.

Total runs were...16.
Also 4 speedwork sessions.
Also 4 Rowing specific sessions of Easy/Hard intervals (about 25minutes each session)
All other work was Crossfit.

Have to say that for the last few weeks the training has been sporadic. Anywhere from 2 to 5 sessions a week. Due to all sorts of things.


Anyway,
the long runs were...
16, 18, 20, 11, 0, 13, 15, 13, 10.

Wk 4 should have been 15. Foot was getting very sore so finished the run early. Wk 5 was supposed to be 20 but felt the foot needed another week. Other than those two the longs runs went pretty much to schedule.

the short (mid-week) runs were...
8, 8, 6, 10, 0, 0, 5 + 5, 8, 6.

Wk 7 I ran mid-week and the day afer the long run also.

Thats where I am today. Crossfit tonight. Row tomorrow. Short run Wed. Crossfit Thursday.


So the plan I had initiialy seems to have been followed more closely than I later planned to. Its just how it panned out really.

Will let you know how it goes

--amadeus--

Well whatever has been done has been done, no point fretting over lost runs now.

The only advice I'll offer is to start 15 - 30 secs per mile slower than you think you can run. I haven't run Conn but I do know that the second half is tougher than the first so you'll need to conserve some energy. And it's better to finish strongly passing people than weakly and being passed!

Best of luck and let us know how you do...

brianon

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Well whatever has been done has been done, no point fretting over lost runs now.

The only advice I'll offer is to start 15 - 30 secs per mile slower than you think you can run. I haven't run Conn but I do know that the second half is tougher than the first so you'll need to conserve some energy. And it's better to finish strongly passing people than weakly and being passed!

Best of luck and let us know how you do...

That sounds like a plan I might just stick to

brianon

Well had a great day yesterday. Injury held up pretty well and only had to walk to for a couple of minutes around mile 22/23 to rub the ole quads before they cramped up.

Was v.sore afterwards and v.stiff today . No lon term damage I think

Managed to meet my goal of sub 4 hours as well 3:58:49 by my watch.

So 171mile in 10 weeks with some rowing and lots of crossfit. Happy today.

Thanks to all who gave me advice. All much appreciated.

Racing Flat

That's a great time on 17miles a week and limited long runs. Well done. Hope you're not too sore for too long.
Now I wonder how fast you could go with more mileage????

hunnymonster

Congratulations.

brianon

Racing Flat wrote: »

That's a great time on 17miles a week and limited long runs. Well done. Hope you're not too sore for too long.
Now I wonder how fast you could go with more mileage????

Don't you mean...how much slower I'd be ?

copacetic

brianon wrote: »

Well had a great day yesterday. Injury held up pretty well and only had to walk to for a couple of minutes around mile 22/23 to rub the ole quads before they cramped up.

Was v.sore afterwards and v.stiff today . No lon term damage I think

Managed to meet my goal of sub 4 hours as well 3:58:49 by my watch.

So 171mile in 10 weeks with some rowing and lots of crossfit. Happy today.

Thanks to all who gave me advice. All much appreciated.

well done.

aburke

Fair play.
Thought you were nuts to take it on like you did.

Alan

--amadeus--

Well done!

I agree I thought you were nuts but I think the adapted plan was a good mix of running and cross training, it's just a shame that injury and niggles disrupted it a bit.

As outside observers I think we all thought that stamina and recovery would be the issues that more long runs would have probably helped you avoid. That said it was good going to only need one short walk break.

What I think you've proved is that intensive aerobic cross training can compensate for fewer runs than a traditional plan (something close-ish to the Furman Institute program of 1 long run, 1 shorter run and 1 speed session per week in fact). A variation on what you've done could be ideal for an injury prone runner (or a wannabe marathon runner who hates running!).

Well done again!

thirtyfoot

Well done brianon on meeting your target and especially with the late injury scare it proves you are a gutsy fecker to have got through, maybe the bang your head against the wall tabata sessions have a purpose for a marathon runner!

--amadeus-- wrote: »

What I think you've proved is that intensive aerobic cross training can compensate for fewer runs than a traditional plan (something close-ish to the Furman Institute program of 1 long run, 1 shorter run and 1 speed session per week in fact). A variation on what you've done could be ideal for an injury prone runner (or a wannabe marathon runner who hates running!).

Unfortunately we can't presume that this plan works as well as a traditional program as there is no control to compare to. Perhaps if brianon followed a traditional plan next year for the same timeframe and compared to this years run that would be very interesting, any chance brianon?:D I'd be from the Seb Coe school of "long slow runs make long slow runners" but your program seems to have been the extreme convenience store EuroSpar version instead of the more respected Superquinn version but at the end of the day the smell of freshly baked I finished the marathon bread is the same whether its EuroSpar or Superquinn (thats a bit cantona seagull there I know!), even though Superquinn does taste better and would probably get you a 3:30:)

When I compare a program like this to what I'm more used to (sprints/middle distance), following a massively curtailed volume program and focusing on quality only in these track events is asking for trouble and you will get found out in relation to guys you should be beating. You may finish the 400 or 1500 in a decent time but not as fast as you could and I'm thinking the same for a marathon. Running training in all distances does follow the pyramid structure in some way and if the base and foundation isn't strong you won't get as high as you can.

Brianon - did you get any mile splits as this would be interesting to look at too?

--amadeus--

Tingle wrote: »

Unfortunately we can't presume that this plan works as well as a traditional program as there is no control to compare to.

To clarify I wasn't suggesting that the crossfit worked as well as a "proper" running program, just that it would compensate (to some degree) for the lack of miles. It would be interesting to see how Brian got on with a "proper" schedule though!

Generally I'd agree though, lacking a strong base and foundation you will be beaten by people you shouldn't be beaten by. Perhaps even more so in endurance events than shorter track stuff? Regardless though it depends on your motivation - getting through a marathon with minimal running? This worked in this case. Completing a marathon as fast as possible? I'll stick to a higher mileage program as it's been proven time and time again to work.

hunnymonster

Brianon, what is next for you?

Odysseus

Congrats mate, glad to hear to finished it.

brianon

Only just getting online for the first time in a few days

Anyway...

Thanks for all the support

What I think you've proved is that intensive aerobic cross training can compensate for fewer runs than a traditional plan (something close-ish to the Furman Institute program of 1 long run, 1 shorter run and 1 speed session per week in fact).

CrossFit is as much about anaerobic (probably more so the way I followed it) as it is about aerobic. Yeah, I pretty much got my running stuff from the Furman programme. Except I ended up only doing the two runs - time constraints that come with having a young daughter

Unfortunately we can't presume that this plan works as well as a traditional program as there is no control to compare to. Perhaps if brianon followed a traditional plan next year for the same timeframe and compared to this years run that would be very interesting, any chance brianon? I'd be from the Seb Coe school of "long slow runs make long slow runners" but your program seems to have been the extreme convenience store EuroSpar version instead of the more respected Superquinn version but at the end of the day the smell of freshly baked I finished the marathon bread is the same whether its EuroSpar or Superquinn (thats a bit cantona seagull there I know!), even though Superquinn does taste better and would probably get you a 3:30

When I compare a program like this to what I'm more used to (sprints/middle distance), following a massively curtailed volume program and focusing on quality only in these track events is asking for trouble and you will get found out in relation to guys you should be beating. You may finish the 400 or 1500 in a decent time but not as fast as you could and I'm thinking the same for a marathon. Running training in all distances does follow the pyramid structure in some way and if the base and foundation isn't strong you won't get as high as you can.

Brianon - did you get any mile splits as this would be interesting to look at too?

Well while its not possible to compare my training results to that of say a Hal Higdon plan I can compare my results to that of 2003 when I followed Hals programme for 3/4 months before getting ITBS.

Back in '03 I ran two half marathons...Longford (1:50) & Dublin (1:45).
My Connemara run had me at 1:55 I think for the half. Mind you I had 3 pee breaks in the first half which cost me near 3 minutes

The half times from '03 were actual races. Had I had another 13.1 to go in those then I would have been MUCH slower on those. On Sunday I was comfortable enough after 13.1. I reckon I could easily enough match my '03 times in a similar circumstance. But hard to say for sure unless I ... go again

Brianon, what is next for you?

Well the running bug has not bitten ... BUT... I might be interested in seeing what I could do in a 5 mile/10 mile/13.1 mile race to see just how this training does compare to a traditional plan. I think I'll enter the Addidas series of races for the Dublin marathon and see how they go.

I won't do ANY extra running at all. So other than the few 10k/5k runs as part of my normal CF training I won't do any running for these.

TBH I think I peaked too early. I think I could have ran the marathon the day I ran my first 20 miler. I reckon if I do decide to do the Dublin marathon I'll just do like 5 weeks training. No taper.

A good solid 5 months of CrossFit (and Tag Rugby) should see me ready for that.

I think next week I'll do a CrossFit Total workout. Its where you perform Squats, Deadlifts & Standing Press. You get three attempts at each (plus full warmup) in one session. Your best in each is your score. You then add em together to get your Total. I want to see how much my score has come down over the past few months.

Again. Thanks for the support.

And the Tabata stuff, besides being a great form of exercise...it certainly did help build a bit of mental toughness that got me through the last few tough miles in a reasonable time

*As for mile splits...
1st Half: All sub 9 except for 3 toilet breaks.
13->22: Mostly around 8:30.
23/24/25: 10:00/11:00(walked some)/9:30/9:45.
+ a FAST last .2. Which I will probably pay feel for some time to come

Looks like I faded over the last few but if you've not run Connemara...there is a SAVAGE hill near the end that could make you cry

Best Lap ? Mile 21 (8:18)