Running a marathon with no specific trainng

brianon

--amadeus-- wrote: »

The reason I was asking about sources is that the general fitness community often spout advice about running in general and marathons in particular that is so far wrong it's dangerous (one gym in Limerick offered advice to me that verged on the suicidal before the "expert" asked "just how far is the marathon anyway...?"!!) I just wanted to check that the people you were getting advice from weren't just the usual internet know it alls (unlike me )

I'll stand over what I said, you'll do it but you'll hurt and the adaptions from your strength and cross training may help but will not compensate fully. The real test is your 16+ mile runs.

Looking forward to teh progress reports!

Thanks for the comments and advise. All very much appreciated.

I'll keep the thread posted as I progress (or not!)

Do they have internet access in hospitals these days

ecoli

i would say dont go for huge mileage but ya still gotta get a bit in an hour runs but in terms nf fitness i have found that circuits can benefit runners tremendously so i say twice to three times a week maximum effort on them plus cross trainers are good way to build running fitness and also save your knees(just ask mottram) lol hope this helps

brianon

ecoli wrote: »

i would say dont go for huge mileage but ya still gotta get a bit in an hour runs but in terms nf fitness i have found that circuits can benefit runners tremendously so i say twice to three times a week maximum effort on them plus cross trainers are good way to build running fitness and also save your knees(just ask mottram) lol hope this helps

Thanks for the reply. I will be doing some 400m/800m near max effort etc... but only once every 3 weeks.

The rest of the training will be all Crossfit. So tonight my workout was (taken from crossfit.ie)...
21-15-9 (reps)
Burpee Pull Ups
Kettlebell Swing (24Kg)

took 9:30 minutes.

Tomorrow will be another CF and the same again Thursday. Some indoor rowing in between. Will rest Friday. Run 15miles Saturday and rest Sunday after the run.
Mondays CF will be a single lift day probably Squats 7 single reps at max effort. Of course that'll include a warmup.

The crosstrainer is not something I'd be that fond of. I have used them but not enjoyed them. Not a member of a gym anymore anyway.

--amadeus--

brianon wrote: »

...took 9:30 minutes...

Do you mean your entire workout was over in less than 10 mins?

Just out of curiosity what is your resting heart rate? How fast did you complete your 13 miler and what is your target time for the marathon?

brianon

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Do you mean your entire workout was over in less than 10 mins?

Yeah. 10 minutes. Well the warm up can take 10+ minutes also.
Most CF WODS (Workout of the Day) would be in the 12-25 minute range. (depends on your ability) and how much pain you want on any given day. That WOD was a quick WOD compared to others. I plan on doing a 'Filthy Fifty' next week which is 50 reps of 10 different exercises and not star jumps either
That could take near an hour so it can vary quite a bit. Other days then it could be just your seven times max 1 rep deadlift. Of course there would be quite a few warm up lifts to get to your max so its not just 7 lifts in total for rthe workout.

How fast did you complete your 13 miler and what is your target time for the marathon?

The 13 miler took 1:53. It was actually more like 13.4 miles. But who's counting? Well I am
Normally when I do run I would always push the last mile/finish to get as good a time as I can but on this occasion I made a point of not doing that as I wanted it to be more a snapshot of where I'd be at 13 miles and as such was not looking for the best half marathon time I could manage.

My target would be sub 4 hour (3:59 would be good) because it is Connemara but if it was a less tough one I'd be hoping for 3:45.

Just out of curiosity what is your resting heart rate?

My resting heart rate? Eh...Well sitting at my desk here I counted for 1 minute and it was 50 on the button.

brianon

Right. I ran the 16.7 miler on Saturday morning. Conditions were ... cold, windy and a bit wet. It took me 2:29.49.

The first 5/6 miles were ok. The next 5/6 were great. The next 2/3 were ok. The last 2/3 were tough.

Happy enough with the run. My legs (especially the knees) were sore afterwards but by Sunday they weren't too bad and the body felt a good bit better after this run than it did two weeks previous after the 13 miler.

About 6 miles in my right foot started to cut up cause a) I should have cut my toe nails before the run and b) I used different runners and didn't tie the right foot up tight enough. That didn't help.

Had my life depended on it I could have knocked off a few more miles but to complete a marathon that day I would have had to employ a run/walk to finish the last 10 miles.

So with four months left I am pretty happy to have run 16.7 miles on Saturday and back training with a CF WOD last night and a bit this morning.

The next long run is in just under three weeks time (will run a fast paced 10k this weekend) will be around 18 miles so again I will know more as to how the body is adapting...(if at all).

--amadeus--

Did you record mile splits? You averaged 9 min/miles but it would be interesting to see if you started at 8:30 and ended up at 10 or 11's - you will certainly have slowed and the amount you slowed by would be a good indicator of your actual fitness. Also how did you fuel the run?

That said - and at the risk of sounding defeatist - I'd be a lot less confident after this run than your last one.

Long runs are anything from 15 miles and up so a 16.7 is only just into long run territory. Once you made it up towards long run range (last 2 - 3 miles) the pain began, which is something we have all been predicting. In particular the knee and any other joint pain is because you haven't built the miles gradualy so your connective tissue has not had a chance to adapt. With such infrequent stimuli (one long run every 3 weeks) it won't signifigantly adapt between now and the race so I would expect you to feel pretty much the same on race day as you did at the end of this run. You said that you would only have been able to run another two or three miles - what was the limiting factor, muscle fatigue? Joint pain? Somethig else?

At this point in time I would strongly advise you to have a serious think about why you are doing this. If a marathon is a lifelong ambition then isn't it worth the respect of training properly for? After all it's only 12 weeks of your life and nothing worth having is effortless.

If you don't want to train in the traditional manner then I really think you only have two choices. Drop the idea altogether or adopt a run / walk from the start because (hostage to fortune here!) if you continue on your current plan there is no way you will be able to run teh entire marathon.

I'd be interested to hear what other runners think - am I being overly pessimistic?

brianon

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Not mile spits as such no.

I know when I had 5 miles done, half way(ish) and also 5 miles left.

At each point I predicted (based on my time/pace at that point) a finish of 2:30 and thats exactly how it finished so I don't think I slowed up much if at all.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Also how did you fuel the run?

I just brought a bottle of lucozade sport (watered down slightly) but I hate running with a bottle and it definitely had a negative effect on the run.

Long runs are anything from 15 miles and up so a 16.7 is only just into long run territory. Once you made it up towards long run range (last 2 - 3 miles) the pain began, which is something we have all been predicting. In particular the knee and any other joint pain is because you haven't built the miles gradualy so your connective tissue has not had a chance to adapt. With such infrequent stimuli (one long run every 3 weeks) it won't signifigantly adapt between now and the race so I would expect you to feel pretty much the same on race day as you did at the end of this run. You said that you would only have been able to run another two or three miles - what was the limiting factor, muscle fatigue? Joint pain? Somethig else?

Well I reckoned there would be pain also but its not like I was walking or limping home. Without disregarding what you are saying I will say this...the cut toe had a negative effect on my running stride, carrying the bottle also and the runners, which I knew beforehand weren't suited for the long run but I persisted anyway as I used to rotate runners when I trained for the marathon back in '03. I think these were factors in the 'pain' but in saying that I wasn't in agony or anything..

About 10 miles intot he 13 miler a few weeks ago both ankles/shins seemed to experience a loss of control from the pounding on the pavement to the point where I was just kinda throwing one leg in front of the other by the end.

On this run after about 10 miles my left leg started to feel like this but only barely and it never got any worse. The right leg was fine all the time. I would consider that an improvement.

As for the knees. 16.7 miles on a road is a long way. No its not a marathon but as you've said my body is having to adapt ... and quickly

Again, i was still jogging to the end and I wasn't in 'that' much pain.

I know I will feel discomfort both on the training runs and on the marathon itself but I DO think that this run shows me it is possible.

At this point in time I would strongly advise you to have a serious think about why you are doing this. If a marathon is a lifelong ambition then isn't it worth the respect of training properly for? After all it's only 12 weeks of your life and nothing worth having is effortless.

Its not a lifelong ambition at all and I AM giving it my respect. I believe that Crossfit is such a great way to train that I can use it as the basis for my training to run a marathon. 12 weeks of my life ? It doesn't appeal to me at all to go running anymore than once a week/fortnight. Maybe this is coming across as someone who wants something but doesn't want to work at all to get it. Not the case.

I train 6 times a week...and then some. Don't think I am some elite athlete. I am just a joe soap.

I am very very curious to see if I can do it. If it doesn't work out then so be it. I have already proven I can at least step outside and run considerable distances without hardly running at all. Just using Crossfit.

I trained for 4 months in '03. Was 28 years old. Weighed 2 stone lighter. Ran 4/5 days a week and never managed more than 15 miles. Eventually my legs were knackered and no amount of physio could get me to run for more than 10 minutes so had to give up that dream of a marathon.

I have been using Crossfit for 5 months now (stopped training completely for 6 months previously when my daughter was born in November '06) and can now with 100% confidence say that I could head out tomorrow and beat any distance/time I put down in '03.

There is a short run I have used for fast running back in '03 and a few times this year. My best time for the 2.7 miles course in '03 was 19:10. Two months ago I ran it in 17:30

I'd be interested to hear what other runners think - am I being overly pessimistic?

Pessimistic? Not at all. Its your opinion and you very may well be correct. We shall see

Karmafaerie

Well like Daveac, I ran my first marathon in Dublin this year too.
I did pretty much no trainng at all, I mean seriously, next to nothing!
I only went for about 5 runs to train for it, and the most I ever ran before it was about 4 miles!

Basically, I was stupid as fu€k!!!
Still though, it was one of the best experiences of my life.
I finished in 4:15 and was over the moon with that!

I've already signed up for the Paris marathon in April, and will be going to New York next year too.
I'm hoping to get my time down to under 3:30 in Paris, and to push for under 3 hours in New York!
I'm training a bit this time, but so I've learned my lesson, but still, to answer your question, I'm proof that you can do it!;):D

Racing Flat

In the world today people want everything whenever they want it...The desire to 'do a marathon' but not do the training is such an example. A marathon isn't a 26mile run you do in a day but a few months or more of running a few or more times a week. That's why it's such a great achievement. Anyone could go out and do a marathon right now without any training at all. Go out and walk for 26miles, take breaks if you need to and anyone could get it done in ? 6 - 8 hours. In some ways a good achievement but IMHO ANYONE could do that. The real achievemnt as I see it is to commit yourself to a training plan (and don't just change this every few weeks!), do the training and then do the marathon, and hopefully even run the whole way - that's what a marathon was set out to be originally, and then you can tell yourself and others 'I've done a marathon' meaning that you've run continuously for 26miles and you were ablew to do this because you put the training in'. And you'll feel great. If your car broke down and you didn't have a phone and you had to walk/run 26miles to get to the nearest garage, would you feel like you'd achieved something great? Probably not, but then I'm a purist...!
My advice would be get down to a running club, talk to the people there who've done marathons, join in a few runs with them and I bet you'll start to enjoy the training and then keep it up for the 12 weeks or so.
Best of luck whatever you decide.

thirtyfoot

brianon wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I will be doing some 400m/800m near max effort etc... but only once every 3 weeks.

.

Can I ask why are you doing these 400/800 all outs if you are training for a marathon? How many do you do? What times are you hitting and what recoveries are you taking? On the face of it this session doesn't make any sense whatsoever and seems a waste of a session. Are you doing as a fitness/progress gauge, all out 400/800's are bloody hard work if you aren't conditioned and prepared for them.

Racing Flat

In my experience of people whp did marathons on scant training, it usually ends up in a bit of a disaster. One example is a friend who was very fit - played soccer at a high level, surfed at international level. So he used to run about 4 times a week for fitness, and always did 5 miles in 35minutes, so not that shabby when only training and not being a runner. Anyway one day a friend asked him for a lift to Lisburn as he was going to do the half marathon there but his own car was out of action. The surfer gave him the lift and when he got there decided to run it aswell himself. He did well. 90mins for a first ever half marathon, and although he was fast and fit, he had done no long runs. The outcome was, ever since he gets severe knee pain after running 30mins so can never run longer than that. And that was only a half marathon. The problem with long distance running is that your bones and joints endure an awful lot of stress with every step and the more steps you take the more stress as there is almost a drying out effect in cartilage. Therefore the body needs to be prepared for it, the cartilage needs to be trained to sustain these forces, and it can be trained by gradually building up the mileage, over a period of time.

Other people I know who've never ran before then train diligently for 4 months and complete the marathon - but often they never run again, and IMO the sudden intensity of training and huge mental effort takes its toll and puts them off. If I was to advise someone completely new to running I would say give yourslef a year to prepare for the marathon - 6-8months of just gentle jogging, getting used to it and then 4 months of actual training. Lots of plans out there but I find those by Brendan O'Shea published in Irish Runner very good. Straightforward anyway.

I know there are some people e.g. Karmafaerie above, who can do the marathon on scant training, enjoy it, get away with it and continue running afterwards. But it's not easy to do a marathon and less easy to do a good one and I would hope impossible to do a good one on scant training.

eclectichoney

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Well like Daveac, I ran my first marathon in Dublin this year too.
I did pretty much no trainng at all, I mean seriously, next to nothing!
I only went for about 5 runs to train for it, and the most I ever ran before it was about 4 miles!


I finished in 4:15 and was over the moon with that!

Oh my. I started running in September (from nothing, though I had been going to the gym a bit and doing other forms of cardio /weights) and am now up to about 10k on my long run (great I know ) and could never imagine running a marathon in the short term from where I am now. Just how did you manage it? I'm in total awe. There is no way I could run for 26 miles tomorrow no matter how hard I tried.

I am half thinking of doing the Dublin marathon in 08 but for the moment I am just enjoying my running, and if it takes another year or so, so be it. But there is some serious inspiration in this thread for the likes of me!

brianon

Tingle wrote: »

Can I ask why are you doing these 400/800 all outs if you are training for a marathon? How many do you do? What times are you hitting and what recoveries are you taking? On the face of it this session doesn't make any sense whatsoever and seems a waste of a session. Are you doing as a fitness/progress gauge, all out 400/800's are bloody hard work if you aren't conditioned and prepared for them.

Doesn't make any sense ? Why not ?
http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/advancedint.htm

Interval Training: In training for a marathon, long repeats (800, 1600, or even longer) generally work better than short repeats (200, 400). I've prescribed 800 repeats for this program, done every third week on Tuesdays for Advanced-II runners, every fourth week on Thursdays for Advanced-I runners. Run an 800 at faster-than-marathon pace, rest by jogging and/or walking 400, then start again. Further instructions are included in the weekly screens, but you might want to consider running these like "Yasso Repeats." Regular readers of Runner's World are familiar with what I mean. Bart Yasso is Promotions Director for the magazine. Bart suggests that you run your 800 repeats using the same numbers as your marathon time. In other words, if you run a 3-hour marathon, you do the 800s in 3 minutes. A 3:10 marathoner does 3:10 repeats; 3:20 marathoner, 3:20 repeats, etc. It seems silly, but it works. Note: Just because you can run 10 x 800 in 3:10, there is no guarantee that you can run 3:10 in the marathon. It works the other way around: If you can run a 3:10 marathon, you probably can do that workout without straining too
much.

Racing Flat wrote:

In the world today people want everything whenever they want it...The desire to 'do a marathon' but not do the training is such an example. A marathon isn't a 26mile run you do in a day but a few months or more of running a few or more times a week. That's why it's such a great achievement. Anyone could go out and do a marathon right now without any training at all. Go out and walk for 26miles, take breaks if you need to and anyone could get it done in ? 6 - 8 hours. In some ways a good achievement but IMHO ANYONE could do that. The real achievemnt as I see it is to commit yourself to a training plan (and don't just change this every few weeks!), do the training and then do the marathon, and hopefully even run the whole way - that's what a marathon was set out to be originally, and then you can tell yourself and others 'I've done a marathon' meaning that you've run continuously for 26miles and you were ablew to do this because you put the training in'. And you'll feel great. If your car broke down and you didn't have a phone and you had to walk/run 26miles to get to the nearest garage, would you feel like you'd achieved something great? Probably not, but then I'm a purist...!
My advice would be get down to a running club, talk to the people there who've done marathons, join in a few runs with them and I bet you'll start to enjoy the training and then keep it up for the 12 weeks or so.
Best of luck whatever you decide.

Not sure if this is directed at the OP (Me) but anyway. I train with Crossfit 5/6 days a week to be as fit as I can be. I want to be fit enough to be capable of running 26.2 miles in a decent time. I think I can achieve this with relatively little specific marathon training i.e. running.
Not looking for the easy option at all. I don't enjoy constant running all that much but I do enjoy the 'odd' run. I found my training for the Dublin '03 marathon to be incredibly boring. The benifits of a Crossfit style plan I think are far more benificial to that of any marathon training plan.

Anyway, progress report

After my 16.7 miler I injured my foot playing indoor soccer so haven't run until this week. Ran a 3.4 miler on Thursday just to test it out and ran 11.4 today. All good

Will get back on track now but have missed probably 1 long run from my schedule of 6.

thirtyfoot

brianon wrote: »

Doesn't make any sense ? Why not ?
http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/advancedint.htm

.

Now thats hardly 400/800 at near max effort. Higdon's 400/800/1500 are speedwork geared towards distance training as the pace is quite steady, eg, 3:00 min 800 for a 3 hour marathon man. As he says "you can probably do that session without straining too much". Believe me, if you did a 400/800 interval session at near max effort, you'd know about it and you'd be straining quite a lot.

Its fine, your interval session is grand if you are following pace and timings as outlined below, buts its not near maximal effort as thats a totally different kettle of fish. Its just your description using near max effort threw me off.

thirtyfoot

brianon wrote: »

I want to be fit enough to be capable of running 26.2 miles in a decent time. .

Are you hoping to go sub 3 with that training schedule?

Racing Flat

brianon wrote: »

Not sure if this is directed at the OP (Me) but anyway. I train with Crossfit 5/6 days a week to be as fit as I can be. I want to be fit enough to be capable of running 26.2 miles in a decent time. I think I can achieve this with relatively little specific marathon training i.e. running.
Not looking for the easy option at all. I don't enjoy constant running all that much but I do enjoy the 'odd' run. I found my training for the Dublin '03 marathon to be incredibly boring. The benifits of a Crossfit style plan I think are far more benificial to that of any marathon training plan.


After my 16.7 miler I injured my foot playing indoor soccer so haven't run until this week. Ran a 3.4 miler on Thursday just to test it out and ran 11.4 today. All good

Will get back on track now but have missed probably 1 long run from my schedule of 6.

Fair enough, maybe you're not going for the easy option as you are training very hard at Crossfit. But if you hated the training in 03 so much why want to do a marathon? As I said, in my view, a marthon should be a 4 month as opposed to a 1 day achievement. So from that point of view I thought maybe you were looking for an easy option of doing a good marathon...So if not, then maybe it's the specificty of training that you are getting wrong, mentioned above somewhere. To get your good time and avoid injury you need to do the training for the specific event - ie run regularly. I don't know what cross fit is, but if there was a cross fit competition in March and I posted a thread saying 'I want to do the competition and get a good result, but don't really want to do that training, as I hated it the last time. My plan is to run 6 days a week and just do 6 hard cross fit training sessions between now and March' do you think it would be a) me looking for an easy option b) advisable c) possible to get a good result???
How did you get the foot injury - maybe total coincidence, but perhaps if your body was tired after the long run, or it is not used to the long runs, this made you more predisposed to the foot injury?

Also, another problem with doing such a sparse training schedule, is that if you miss any session at all, it has a much greater effect - ie if you've missed 1/6 sessions, that's 16odd%. If someone runs 6 days a week for 20 weeks, 120 sessions, much easier to make up for the odd missed sessions.

Hope this doesn't sound too critical, only based on experience of friends whose future sporting career has been affected by not giving marathons and half marathons enough respect.

Racing Flat

More examples...

know a fellow, very good hurler, played Senior club hurling in cork with a strong team, wouldn't have been a million miles from the Cork senior team (about 10 years ago). He was out at the Jazz festival in Cork, Reardons where else, bumped into an old friend who wasn't drinking - asked him why, said he was running in marathon 2 days later. Hurler, drunk said he'd do it with him, woke up next day, felt he had to go ahead with it. Was very fit considering the hurling training, but did not have any specific long distance running training done. Got a number from someone who couldn't run and did a great first half but finished in just under 6 hours, dying. After the drive back to Cork he had to be lifted from the car, parents had to make up a bed downstairs and he was stuck in a chair shaped position for 24 hours he had stiffened up so much. Now he's delighted to have done the marathon, but struggled with injuries ever since, never reached the same heights at hurling again, and I think it's because of the damage done to an unprepared body during the marathon but would be hard to prove in court...

Also, 2 good club rugby players, playing for Sunday's Well in Cork, scrum-half and out-half/full-back so small/fast enough as rugby players go. Decided to do Ballycotton 10mile road race a year or two ago. Race in March so by that stage of season they would be well fit, with specific cardiovascular and strengthening training programmes. I don't know how much effort they put in, but they did about 80mins. A good run, but at that pace would be 3.5 hours for marathon, but as they would be unlikely to hold that 10mile pace for 26miles I imagine they would be closer to 4 hours. Not bad, but considering how fit they are at rugby, they would be capable of much better with specific training.

Similarly a few years ago Damien Duff did the 5mile adidas race in Phoenix Park. Ran around 33mins, not bad, 6.40/mile, but there were probably a few hundred amateurs in front of him including plenty veteran and female runners. Again, I don't know how much effort he put in, but considering the amount of training he must do and the good nutrition/diet, time to rest etc. he would be capable of much better. If it was a series of a few hundred 20meter sprints over a 90min period I bet he's have beaten all of us;).

Speaking of sports stars doing running races - there was talk of Colin Corkery and Sean Og O hAilpin doing the marathon over the last few years - anyone know if they did and if so how they did?

Karmafaerie

eclectichoney wrote: »

Oh my. I started running in September (from nothing, though I had been going to the gym a bit and doing other forms of cardio /weights) and am now up to about 10k on my long run (great I know ) and could never imagine running a marathon in the short term from where I am now. Just how did you manage it? I'm in total awe. There is no way I could run for 26 miles tomorrow no matter how hard I tried.

I am half thinking of doing the Dublin marathon in 08 but for the moment I am just enjoying my running, and if it takes another year or so, so be it. But there is some serious inspiration in this thread for the likes of me!

To be honest I don't know how I did it.
It was all the adrelaline.
I was 12 miles in before I felt anything.
Even now in training for Paris, I can't run anything like that.
As soon as you start, all the crouds clapping, and the other people running with you, just gee you on.

--amadeus--

brianon wrote: »

Doesn't make any sense ? Why not ?
http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/advancedint.htm

From the link and intro to the plan you quoted:


If this is your first marathon, regardless of your talent, consider following the Novice program and simply set as your goal finishing, rather than finishing fast. See you a couple of marathons from now. If you haven't done the various types of speedwork included in this program, it's also Bye Bye. You do not want to begin speedwork in a marathon program if you have not done it before. (Hal Higdon is a very experienced coach, has completed well over 100 marathons and has a PB is the low 2:20's or better so he does know what he's talking about)

Running 400/800m reps as part of your training is both pointless (you will derive no marathon running benifit from it) and dangerous (you run an increased chance of injury in sessions of this type).

If your goal is simply to get round, enjoy the atmosphere and say "I did a marathon" then by all means carry on as you are (tho' without the reps!). Putting time pressure on yourself and thinking that you can run a competitive race (competitive relative to your own abilities, whatever standard they may be) is a very high risk strategy.

I think the core here is that you are confusing generic fitness with marathon training. I am sure that with your "crossfit" training you are probably fitter than me, or some of teh other runners on here, in almost any manner or way that can be measured.

I am equally sure that an experienced marathoner could out run you, either now, on race day or at any point in between. And it's not about genetics or ability, it's about your body learning how to run long. The training you are doing is not teaching your body how to cope and that's why you need to adjust either your training or your target.

Here's another quote to think about, from Noakes another experienced runner, coach and sports doctor / scientist: "the pain after 31kms of the standard marathon is the worst that any man will bear and is bested only by childbirth for women"

copacetic

I think you are being very unfair and closed minded there amadeus. 'Running 400/800m reps is pointless'???. Couldn't disagree more with that statement and everyone I know who runs at any kind of decent level does that kind of training.

The various studies and reports out there on 3 days a week marathon training give stunning results (15 of 21 ran PBs). All based on one speed work session (yes reps of 400m-1600m), one tempo run, and one long run a week.

Runners World ran that story in Feb 2006 and with the results seen since are now running it more and more and it may be their recommended routine sooner rather than later.

Perhaps you guys have good intentions but such closed mindedness is not on imo.


To the OP, get a least 3 sessions of running a week in, don't miss the long run and search for FIRST marathon programme online and you will likely be fine.

Racing Flat

The OP in his first post suggested only doing 6 or so long runs. Most running plans advocate a speed session, a tempo run and a long run, ie 3 quality runs a week and then another 2 or 3 easy runs. Most club runners in the country would train like this I would imagine, with individual differences based on the event they are training for. In terms of doing 400s/800s for a speed session, I would imagine if training for shorter distances you would do less of then faster with a longer recovery to work the speed, but if training for longer distances such as the marathon, doing more reps, at a slower pace with less recovery would be better for building the speed endurance. I don't know if it matters too much the distance of the repeat as long as you stick to these principles, but I would be more inclined to do the longer ones when marathon training.

For example in spring/early summer when training for 1500 we would tend to do 6 400s in 66s (fast for our level!) with a 2-3min recovery, but if training for a 5-10k we might do 12 400s in 75s with a 90sec recovery, but if training for marathon I'd be more inclined to do 6 x 1 mile in 6 mins or 8 x 800 in 2.45.

By the way Copacetic in the Runners World - did they do only the three quality runs and no easy runs? Would be interested in reading this, maybe I should cut out my easy runs...but I love them! what else would I do with my time;). i'm not sure if paople were being close minded, but the OP did say he was going to do the 400s at near max, I would have thought he would have been better off doing more reps, slower than near max (so he can actually do more) based on what I've read and my own experience, but not an expert, but don't think this is close minded just my view

copacetic

yep racing, 3 quality sessions, no junk would be the way they look at it. You are expected to crrosstrain hard on two other days though. it was actually a report on the furman institutes program and tests. It was feb 06 edition but they repeat it a fair bit. they have had various marathon guinea pigs try it it all the running glossies since and it seems very sucessful at preventing injury and giving good results.

I was probably harsh, as you say there is no way you can run 400 reps at 'near max' it is an oxymoron. either you get slower very quickly or it wasn't near max to beign with. the FIRST program has you doing 12x400m in week 9 for instance which obviously has to be a long way off max to be possible. similarly yasso 800s type sessions are in there.

Check out the FIRST program here:
http://www.furman.edu/first/fmtp.htm

Racing Flat

Cheers Copacetic, will have a look at that. Can you do easy runs instead of the hard cross training if you don't get injured? Can't be bothered with gym, too dangerous to cycle where I live, not good enough at swimming...and love running! And does it work with good runners bettering their times, or was it just for first timers? Hopefully it's all in article - will download now. Thanks again.

copacetic

the hard cross training seems important, thats why it is suited to OP imo. The idea is that you increase the quality of the 3 running days whichrest days allow you to. the long runs are quicker than std programs for instance.the link is just the program, the article may still be on the runners world site if you have a subscription.

it seemed to work especially well for experienced runners. the 13 veterans among the 21 runners in the original study improved their times by 20 mins. 15/21 set PBs, 4/6 of the rest ran faster than their last marathon.


edit:
article is on site:
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/news/article.asp?sp=&v=3&uan=2493

with a 800 post thread.

--amadeus--

The Furman programme is an excellent one, in fact I linked to it on page one of this thread! Everything I have seen on it reccomends 3 * running days and crosstraining on the others and it's especially good for injury prone runners, IIRC.

Likewise I agree 100% that speedwork is important - even vital. My program for Rotterdam includes 1 speed session a week once I get past the initial regain fitness pain. For example I have a V02 max session which is 6*600m @ 5k pace, with 90sec recoveries, or lactate threashold runs of 12 miles with 7 @ 1/2 mara pace. I have nothing against track work or 400/800 m reps!

Couple of points though. The point of fast, short reps is usually to boost V02 max. This allows the trained athlete to workl harder for longer as they will be at a lower % of max for a given pace. Anything up to 10k and V02 max is (AFAIK) one of the key indicators and predictors of ability. However as the distance increases V02 max importance decreases. Therefore for a marathon runner to only do V02 max work (ie fast short reps) to the exclusion of all other speed work is not the most productive use of training time.

Likewise the advice I was throwing around was not generic but specific. The OP is only planning one run per week. One week a long run, next a 10k the third a set of 400/800m reps. I reckon that's lunacy personally but if he will only do 1 running session a week then I don't think that any coach would reccomend that one of those was reps, do you?

copacetic

apologies if that is the case amadeus, but I read above about his long runs and also about the reps so assumed it was a least 2 runs a week he was planning. as you say 1 run a week would not be advisable. but if someone who was very fit got in 3 or 4 20 mile long runs before a marathon they would likely get through it a lot better than 90% of the other people running on the day imo. However that would be based on a long run at least every week.

HardyEustace

eclectichoney wrote: »

Oh my. I started running in September (from nothing, though I had been going to the gym a bit and doing other forms of cardio /weights) and am now up to about 10k on my long run (great I know ) and could never imagine running a marathon in the short term from where I am now. Just how did you manage it? I'm in total awe. There is no way I could run for 26 miles tomorrow no matter how hard I tried.

I am half thinking of doing the Dublin marathon in 08 but for the moment I am just enjoying my running, and if it takes another year or so, so be it. But there is some serious inspiration in this thread for the likes of me!

Started running April 06 on the "walk for 10 minutes/run for 5 minutes/walk for 10 minutes", three times a week. Did the women's mini-marathon that June. Decided I loved running, decided to do the Dublin marathon, bought this book non-runner's marathon trainer

completed the training program and finished the marathon in 4 and half hours. Was a smoker at the time as well. You've loads of time for a marathon. Would recommend the book though. The most you do before the marathon is 2 x 18 miles in the last few weeks before the marathon. Great mental preparation tools which are key.

--amadeus--

I agree - CV fitness (which the OP clearly has) is really important and if you have that and can fit in a few decent long runs then you'll be grand on the day. As with all training though I think it's consistancy is the key - 4 or 5 long runs in 4 or 5 weeks will do more good than 5 or 6 over 5 or 6 months I believe.

Hardy - spot on, anyone can complete a marathon no matter what their starting point as long as they take it seriously and approach things realisitically.

ditpoker

ehmm... anyone with any non-horror stories about people running marathons and NOT being plagued with injury after?