Bicep Curl

wingnut32

I have heard it mentioned before in these forums that the bicep curl was a waste of time.

Does anybody agree with this and if so what other excercise would be benificial to bicep growth??

Patto

Chin ups, Lat pull downs, bent over rows.

You can always superset these exercises with bicep curls if you like a good burning sensation in you forearms and biceps.:)

t-ha

The only thing to watch with stuff like Chin ups, Lat pull downs, bent over rows etc. is that some people will preferentially build up their backs with these exercises and arm involvement will be minimal. If you're one of those people then hitting biceps directly with curls isn't a bad idea at all, a least until you get them up to par. Also, if you concentrate on pulling your hands in towards you when doing these exercises then you tend to emphasise the arm involvement, conversely concentrating on pulling your elbows back will emphasise back involvement.

wingnut32

so i guess the likes of concentration, hammer, and preacher curls would fall into the same category..I have to agree when i do chin ups and bent over rows i feel it more in the back than anywhere else...

Hanley

I REALLY don't understand all of this.

If you want to make a certain musle bigger, then don't train it directly. WTF is the story with that??

OP, this whole "training your biceps is a waste of time theory" has really come from a sports conditioning and performance point of view where big arms mean jack sh!t.

If you want to increase the size of your arms, you MUST train them. Anyone who says you can make serious improvements to your arms shape and size without ANY direct training is just lying to you.

rubadub

More like "time could be better spent" rather than "waste of time". Depends on your goals. I only wanted a small amount of muscle and to lose fat. The increased muscle will raise my metabolism and so help me maintain my fat loss for good. So in my case I am only doing 2hours max per week. I now have about as much muscle as I want and my new goal is really 10% BF.

Yesterday all I did was deadlifts, about 12 and that is it, I reckon this will do more to maintain my current overall muscle than if I spent the same time doing curls.

I just want to maintain what I have so compound exercises are probably the most efficient time wise. If I was a professional BBer or powerlifter I guess I would definitely be doing curls.

BrianD3

Curls are not a complete waste of time however many people starting out tend to go way overboard on them and neglect other exercises which will build more overall mass. It's not unusual to see someone with a "programme" that consists of benching and 4 types of curls with not a deadlift, squat, chin up or overhead press anywhere to be seen.

Hanley

rubadub wrote: »

More like "time could be better spent" rather than "waste of time". Depends on your goals. .

The OP clearly stated he was looking for "bicep growth" tho. So why would he not do exercises to attain that goal?

Of course people tend to over do it, especially beginners. But as with all things fitness related there's a massive over reaction in the short term and an under reaction in the long term.

People mover COMPLETELY away from direct bicep work because it has become common wisdom because it's "useless". Then their arms lag behind, their elbows start to hurt and they're left with a major imbalance.

How do I know this? Because I was one of those people. My arms might be 16.5 inches, but that's ALL tricep, my bi's belong to someone with 14 or 15 inch arms.

So OP, don't make the same mistake I did.

wingnut32

Thanks for the comments folks, Hanley what would you recommend that I do to get bigger growth, currently I am training my biceps one day a week and that consists of Biceps Curls 3/8 at 28.5kg (cant really get past this weight) and Hammer Curls 3/8 at 12.5kg on each dumbell last set to fail...by the way I have done this for the last 12 weeks

Hanley

wingnut32 wrote: »

Thanks for the comments folks, Hanley what would you recommend that I do to get bigger growth, currently I am training my biceps one day a week and that consists of Biceps Curls 3/8 at 28.5kg (cant really get past this weight) and Hammer Curls 3/8 at 12.5kg on each dumbell last set to fail...by the way I have done this for the last 12 weeks

I'm the wrong guy to ask I'm afraid. I've never really made any great effort to train mine. What I plan on doing personally is this tho...

Day 1:
Barbell Curls: 3x6 (then drop back to 1x10-12)

Day 2:
Hammer Curls: 4x8-10

Day 3:
Seated Dumbbell Curls: 3-4x10-12

I prefer frequency and volume when it comes to hitting weak points. The above wouldn't be to failure, a rep short of it maybe.

wingnut32

Thanks Hanley, can anyone recommend a better routine for the biceps based on what they have read in this thread??

wingnut32

Hanley, what sort of weight would you lift for the exercises youve mentioned??

Hanley

wingnut32 wrote: »

Hanley, what sort of weight would you lift for the exercises youve mentioned??

i've gotten up to 45-50kg for sets of 6 on barbell curls, 20kg hammer curls for 12-15 reps. Dunno about the seated curls. Haven't done them in a long while.

BaZmO*

wingnut32 wrote: »

Hanley, what sort of weight would you lift for the exercises youve mentioned??

There's no point in asking what weight somebody else lifts. You need to lift what suits you, but he did say...

Hanley wrote:

The above wouldn't be to failure, a rep short of it maybe.

rubadub

Hanley wrote: »

The OP clearly stated he was looking for "bicep growth" tho. So why would he not do exercises to attain that goal?.

Yep, I agree totally, I am just pointing out why it is common to see people saying they are a "waste of time".
I did mention it depends on your goals, many people want overall muscle growth, not just big biceps. If biceps are your thing then go for it, if your goal is a thick neck do neck exercises- I never train my neck directly.

I didnt mean to infer the "time better spent" specifically to the OP's goals, it was that most people who disuade doing them are really saying "time is better spent", and not that they are completely useless.

Hanley wrote: »

Of course people tend to over do it, especially beginners.

Yes, in another thread I was saying that is why some people overstate it to beginners. Imagine somebody playing charades or pictonary and wanting to demonstrate weightlifting or BBing, 99% of people will pretend to be doing curls, it is the "cartoon depiction". Ask a kid to "show off their muscles" and they flex the bicep. My brother couldnt see the point in my having over 50kg of weights, only exercises he was doing was curls and presses. He saw a bar last night loaded with 110kg of plates for deadlifts and I could see him thinking "WTF does he do with that".

wingnut32 wrote: »

Thanks Hanley, can anyone recommend a better routine for the biceps based on what they have read in this thread??

There are only so many bicep specific exercises you can do before you risk overtraining, especially when beginning. If you did heavy squats at the start of your bicep exercises then you would have hormones rushing around your body and your biceps would benefit from this, and the subsequent isolation bicep training.

wingnut32

I do train 4 days a week using deadlifts and squats. Its just last night was 12 weeks and I figured after 3 months there would be alot more gained on my arms than there is....I suppose last night was one of those nights that I felt I should be doing more even though I physicaly couldn't.

I have made good gains almost everywhere else although the chest is still a problem even though I have gone from 20kg to 59.5kg in those 12 weeks.

I have no intentions of giving this up and am fully commited to making this part of my day Im just a little dissapointed with size gains to chest and especially arms

Dragan

Lots of people tend to over training biceps and pecs.....if you think about it, with current living, they are the two most useless muscles on the body....they don't tend to do a lot in everyday life any more!

I found my best sucess for both game with just being clever and upping the frequency but lowering the intensity for both of them. Right now my arms are around the 18.5 inch mark, the tricep and bicep are both in good proportion. My chest has also come along quite nicely, not just in size but also in strenght. For a long time i was stuck on about 100kilos for bench, now i'm knocking on the door of 120 and should be up to about 140 within a couple of months.

Sometimes a change is as good as rest dude, it may just take you a while to find what works for you.

wingnut32

Dragan, if 28.5 for 3 reps is a real struggle for me are you saying that maybe 22-25kg for 4 sets of 12 would yield more results or is 28.5 just a low weight to be lifting anyway

rubadub

wingnut32 wrote: »

Dragan, if 28.5 for 3 reps is a real struggle for me are you saying that maybe 22-25kg for 4 sets of 12 would yield more results or is 28.5 just a low weight to be lifting anyway

Depends on your goals. Some people here are power lifters and are in weight classes, so basically they want to be as strong as possible at the lowest body weight possible. A bodybuilder will not care much about strength, only size & definition.

I just lift to get a little more muscle to boost my metabolism, I do not care about strength really, it is a nice side effect to become stronger and look more muscular in the process, therefore I aim for muscle growth- hypertrophy- so lift in the 8-12 rep range which is meant to suit it best. If I was a professional power lifter I would lift at 3-5reps, get strong and would be big in the process anyway as I would be working out everyday, I wouldnt get BBer big, and have no desire ever be.

A BBer could care less if all he could curl was 10kg as long as his arms were big.

Do not get into the numbers pissing contest thing- usually just results in poor form and potential injury. I find figures that people lift interesting, but do not try and match them. I try to improve or at least maintain my own capabilities.

wingnut32

It is hard not to get involved in the numbers game when I really dont know what im doing..lol

Apologies for all the questions, I train at home so I have no one there to tell me these things, this is why I find this site so useful.

So sticking with the arms, I am not looking for strength so much as size so what should I be doing, bursting myself or more sets and reps at a manageable weight???

rubadub

wingnut32 wrote: »

It is hard not to get involved in the numbers game when I really dont know what im doing..lol

Yes, it is handy to know if something seems way off too.

8-12reps is best for hypertrophy. 1 set is OK for beginners, then move to 2-3sets after a few months or when gains stop. You make fast gains at the start, keep a log of exercises and progession weights. Some try to increase 5% weight per session. Or pick a weight you can only do 8 reps for, then try increase to 9next time, stick with this till you hit 12reps, then up the weight until you are back at 8 again. you make quick gains to begin then it can be disheartening since they slow after a while. I am got gaining much these days, dont really eat enough and just want to maintain myself now.

Dragan is a big bloke it is not really realistic to try and match him (yet!). I have been lifting moderately for around 2 years now I think. I can curl ~42kg for around 5 reps and then lose form. A good way to boost the bicep I found was doing one arm negatives. i would load a dumbell with 20kg and lift for 6reps, then use the other arm to assist it up again, then drop slowly and controlled for another 4 reps- this is a real killer. I can do a Military press 47kg for 8 reps. Now at 80kg bodyweight I can do 13-15chinups and 9-12 pullups, full versions- i.e. dropping right down bottom arms straight, and pull right up over the bar. I deadlift 117kg but not really for reps, I do a few of them with 10-20 second breaks I reckon I could manage another 10-15kg for a max one repetition.

Jumpy

wingnut32 wrote: »

Thanks for the comments folks, Hanley what would you recommend that I do to get bigger growth, currently I am training my biceps one day a week and that consists of Biceps Curls 3/8 at 28.5kg (cant really get past this weight) and Hammer Curls 3/8 at 12.5kg on each dumbell last set to fail...by the way I have done this for the last 12 weeks

28.5??

Ok can someone please explain to me the exact procedure of a bicep curl?

I had assumed it was with dumbbells standing upright with both arms at your sides. Then bringing one up, then lowering, only moving your elbow joint and nothing else. Then doing the other side.
28.5 sounds fairly heavy.

rubadub

Jumpy wrote: »

28.5 sounds fairly heavy.

I am guessing it is a barbell, both hands, and is as you describe. Also hand position can make a difference. If you hold a bar with and overhand grip it works the forearms more, and is much harder. Also I think most can do more than double on a barbell than on a dumbell, e.g. 20kg on a dumbell might be 45kg on a barbell, due to the fact the bar sort of acts as a support between your arms.

wingnut32

yeah its with a barbelll, ill try starting out with one set of 28.5 with 8 reps and try and get up to 12 reps gradually

Colm_OReilly

In order for your body to develop in proportion it must be trained as "functionallly" as possible. Functional being defined (loosely) as multi joint exercises that move a load through a wide range of motion and has applicability in everyday living or would have in a human's natural habitat.

Think of a squat. This works the body from the core out. Obvioiusly, the muscles that are responsible for hip flexion/extension are worked the most, with the muscles further away from the hips worked less, but still working.

For a bicep, the work it does in a pull up or a clean is propotionate to the work done by the rest of the body. As it is working in relative proportion, it shall also change/grow in relative proportion.

In addition to this, the neuroendocrine response from training in this manner is significantly higher than the response normally achieved through isolation work.

As regards the issue of balance, in an isolation program one will almost invariably drift towards doing what they favour or feel best at. Contrasted to a systemic approach, a limit on one particular components capacty will be exposed and developed through working it in it's kinetic chain. If your grip strenght is a limiting factor in your deadlift, for example, deadlifting will improve your grip strength.

So how do you ensure balance? By constantly varying your routine using functional, whole body movements.

Colm
-can show anyone where the beach is

t-ha

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

For a bicep, the work it does in a pull up or a clean is propotionate to the work done by the rest of the body. As it is working in relative proportion, it shall also change/grow in relative proportion.

As regards the issue of balance, in an isolation program one will almost invariably drift towards doing what they favour or feel best at. Contrasted to a systemic approach, a limit on one particular components capacty will be exposed and developed through working it in it's kinetic chain. If your grip strenght is a limiting factor in your deadlift, for example, deadlifting will improve your grip strength.

I agree with making big use of the 'money' exercises, but the above isn't strictly true. People will often favour particular bodyparts over others in the execution of compound lifts.
For example, I know I could get either big arms or a big back or a happy medium from a simple rowing exercise, that looks from the outside to be exactly the same movement, simply by changing the emphasis of which muscle groups I use primarily to do the lift.

Regarding the deadlift comment (and again I appreciate your position that a purely isolated programme allows the idiot-lifter to never face up to their weaknesses) I think powerlifters make an obviously good example. If they want to increase their deadlifts they don't just blindly keep deadlifting, because they're aware that the weak link in their deadlift may be something that needs focused attention, i.e. whatever quality or bodypart is weakest is clearly not developing in pace with the rest of them from deadlifting alone. The body automatically seeks to make use of its strongest muscles to complete a lift, so lagging bodyparts can get left behind. You could make an argument here about 'if they used better/perfect form' and so on, but practical experience shows that it is a difficult way to go about correcting an imbalance or imporving a specific weakness.

As for what muscle groups to grow in what proportion - I don't believe in functionality in this respect, only specificity to whatever tasks you want to improve at. Why is the work done by the bicep in a pull-up so functional? For doing pull-ups it's obviously very functional, but if you had to carry a very heavy rock (for whatever reason :rolleyes:) a short distance you might find that your biceps fail quickly. Uh-oh, not so functional anymore because the training wasn't specific to the task. I think in any strengthening/muscle building endevour you must ask what exactly you're training for & what qualities you need for that & then train specifically for that. Then you'll be functionally capable for that task.

BTW, where is the beach?

BobbyOLeary

In addition to this, the neuroendocrine response from training in this manner is significantly higher than the response normally achieved through isolation work.

Bit off topic Colm I know but could you post up or PM me a link to a journal with that result in it? I've heard Coach Glassman go on about it but I've never been able to find one online! I believe it but just for my own interest I wouldn't mind seeing the journal.

Thanks dude.

Colm_OReilly

t-ha,

Nice response!

Although you did essentially answer the question you put to me. We stress form, particularly on heavy lifts. From the CFJ Oct 07

Mark Rippetoe wrote:

Good form (or technique, or kinematics, or whatever you’d like to call doing it right) should depend on the logic of a dispassionate analysis of the body-and-barbell system in the motion required by the exercise, and that’s about all. The exercise is chosen to work a particular movement pattern normal to the human skeleton, the bar has a certain path it most efficiently travels through space for the exercise, the skeleton must move in ways defined by its segment lengths and articulation points to enable this bar path, and the muscles must move the skeleton exactly this way. Anything that deviates from this is Bad Form.

As regards specificity, there's another good article in the CFJ Oct 07 (it's really just doing all my work for me today ) regarding specificity of training

Long Kilgore wrote:

...those who focus on high-performance weightlifting competition, such finite specificity may limit progress. A standard deadlift is more of a strength stimulus than an RDL or a pull. Rising from a snatch or from a clean is more closely mimicked by the Olympic and front squats. However, the less-specific low-bar squat more efficiently develops the hips than the other two variants by anatomic function and by virtue of being able to handle more weight throughout the complete range of motion. A low-bar squat loads the hips and legs more evenly (anterior-posterior) than the quadriceps-dominant high-bar Olympic or front squats. The heavier weights possible with this exercise provide a better overload stimulus than an Olympic squat. The hips help the weightlifter stand up and help with the pull. More hip strength equates to better performance.

Now, as regards the bicep curl and the rock carryiing. A bicep curl is an isolation movment, yes? We're trying to focus as exclusively we can on the bicep componet. There should be no movement of the hip, spine, or shoulder in a bicep curl (although we all see this in the gym but that's another story!)

In carrying a rock, the bicep is not working in isolation, but rather in conjunction with your whole body.

The way to determine the efficacy of a fitness protocol: pit that system against a second system and test them both against the standards of a third. I know who my money would be on if you tested the rock carrying ability of a bicep curler versus a pull uper.

rubadub

t-ha wrote: »

I think powerlifters make an obviously good example. If they want to increase their deadlifts they don't just blindly keep deadlifting, because they're aware that the weak link in their deadlift may be something that needs focused attention,

Yes I am only getting back into deadlifting recently, my grip & wrist strength were limiting, I was using wrist straps. In the mean time with pullups, chins & gripper tools my grip is now far greater. Now the grip is no longer the limiting factor.

Also most recommend deadlifts only once a week, or twice- while other muscles involved in the lift can be trained for more than that, like using the gripper tools or other forearm work. So you can train up the flagging muscles instead of only doing them with the deadlifting.

t-ha wrote: »

if you had to carry a very heavy rock (for whatever reason :rolleyes:)

BTW, where is the beach?

The beach is white rock in killiney - I have seen guys exercising with rocks down there! I remember seeing a big pile once thinking "jesus these kids are strong these days building sand castles", then I see lads firing them around. There is a shelter/changing room there too with an overhanging ledge that you can do pull ups on, the ledge is a corner so you can put your arms on either side of the corner, seems to work different muscles than doing them on a straight across ledge.

t-ha

Thanks - and I do have to stress that I'm not ragging on Crossfit here, I know plenty of people who do it, or similar workouts (including myself) that enjoy it and get good results from it.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Although you did essentially answer the question you put to me. We stress form, particularly on heavy lifts. From the CFJ Oct 07


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rippetoe
Good form (or technique, or kinematics, or whatever you’d like to call doing it right) should depend on the logic of a dispassionate analysis of the body-and-barbell system in the motion required by the exercise, and that’s about all. The exercise is chosen to work a particular movement pattern normal to the human skeleton, the bar has a certain path it most efficiently travels through space for the exercise, the skeleton must move in ways defined by its segment lengths and articulation points to enable this bar path, and the muscles must move the skeleton exactly this way. Anything that deviates from this is Bad Form.

Fair enough, my only issue is that this can be difficult to achieve in practice, particularly where there is another aspect being emphasised, such as where the trainee is doing the lift as many times as possible for time. We all know the difference between good driving and bad driving, yet sometimes it's hard to see our own driving flaws & sometimes we just forget about them where there is an emphasis on something else like not being late for an appointment. It's easy to say that people should use perfect form, but in my experience and the balance of what I've read in articles and forums, most people wind up with lagging areas.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

As regards specificity, there's another good article in the CFJ Oct 07 (it's really just doing all my work for me today ) regarding specificity of training


Quote:
Originally Posted by Long Kilgore
...those who focus on high-performance weightlifting competition, such finite specificity may limit progress. A standard deadlift is more of a strength stimulus than an RDL or a pull. Rising from a snatch or from a clean is more closely mimicked by the Olympic and front squats. However, the less-specific low-bar squat more efficiently develops the hips than the other two variants by anatomic function and by virtue of being able to handle more weight throughout the complete range of motion. A low-bar squat loads the hips and legs more evenly (anterior-posterior) than the quadriceps-dominant high-bar Olympic or front squats. The heavier weights possible with this exercise provide a better overload stimulus than an Olympic squat. The hips help the weightlifter stand up and help with the pull. More hip strength equates to better performance.

The bit that I've bolded there interests me, because I'm not sure what the author is looking for progress at. Focusing on high-performance weightlifting competition might limit progress based on some measure of performance the author has come up with, but surely it's unlikely to limit progress at high-performance weightlifting competition? As for the back squat argument, I've heard many respected coaches write that they find that front squat performance actually carries over best to field performance in american football players (quite possibly because of the quad dominance?). If people have specific tasks that they want to be better at then having a high level of programme specificity is IMO going to be a good thing.

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Now, as regards the bicep curl and the rock carryiing. A bicep curl is an isolation movment, yes? We're trying to focus as exclusively we can on the bicep componet. There should be no movement of the hip, spine, or shoulder in a bicep curl (although we all see this in the gym but that's another story!)

In carrying a rock, the bicep is not working in isolation, but rather in conjunction with your whole body.

The way to determine the efficacy of a fitness protocol: pit that system against a second system and test them both against the standards of a third. I know who my money would be on if you tested the rock carrying ability of a bicep curler versus a pull uper.

Well my point was more so that a rock carrier would probably beat both of them!

Again, it comes down to specificity (I hope I'm spelling that right?).

The OPs specific wish-list was, specifically, 'bigger biceps'. There's no reason I can think of why curls (in a balanced programme) couldn't help achieve that.

@rubadub - that's mad. I wonder who they are? Some of us here had early thoughts of donig something similar ourselves a while back.

rubadub

t-ha wrote: »

@rubadub - that's mad. I wonder who they are? Some of us here had early thoughts of donig something similar ourselves a while back.

Fair few characters down there. I cycle down on sunday mornings to work off a hangover. There is an auld lad playing clarinet most sunday mornings! and then sometimes another lad around 60 lifting rocks, doing handstands, walking on hands and running around throwing rocks & stuff!

There are a huge amount of steps down to it too. I was once thinking you could bring down a sturdy bag/sack and fill it with sand and go running up & down the steps.

There is also a rope going up a wall, about 15ft, it is a storm protection wall and leads right down to killiney beach. Another regular lad around 60 sprints down the steps, flys up the rope and runs onto killiney.

Also on the shelter there is a concrete corner that you can do dips on.

And I wont even start about the nudists :eek:

Colm_OReilly

t-ha,

The argument of the article is that overspecificity in training will retard growth. I imagine if I quoted more you'd come up with counterpoints/questions that are addressed elsewhere! He makes an excellent point in the sport of cycling as well (if I was to reproduce anymore, I'm just getting into copyright territory)

As for bad form, well that's another one of those "I know I should but..." type scenarios. As an analogy, think of people who request supplements/vitamins here all the time. If you asked them is their diet spot on, I'll bet it's not.

Colm

Transform

keep it simple lads.

For op - can you do chin ups for 10reps yes/no? If not then curls are not going to help you get bigger arms.

Get the chins going and in no way should anyone be doing a biceps only day (unless its a total change in the program).

diegowhite

Transform wrote: »

keep it simple lads.

For op - can you do chin ups for 10reps yes/no? If not then curls are not going to help you get bigger arms.

Get the chins going and in no way should anyone be doing a biceps only day (unless its a total change in the program).

Where'd you get that idea from?

If the dude wants bigger arms (size) without regard for other areas of his body let him, it is what he wants.
Training them specifically will make them them grow in size.

Hanley

diegowhite wrote: »

Where'd you get that idea from?

If the dude wants bigger arms (size) without regard for other areas of his body let him, it is what he wants.
Training them specifically will make them them grow in size.

Ollllllllllllllllllld thread!!

You're not gonna get 18" arms on a 150lb body.

celestial

diegowhite wrote: »

Where'd you get that idea from?

If the dude wants bigger arms (size) without regard for other areas of his body let him, it is what he wants.
Training them specifically will make them them grow in size.

Yeah I don't get where you're comin from Transform.

If you want big biceps like Popeye and don't care about getting out of proportion like Homer Simpson in that episode where he trained one arm then by all means do bicep curls at the expense of other exercises. Personally I have pretty big strong biceps but I haven't done any proper direct bicep work in months - I used to up until maybe 4-5 months ago but my biceps are still strong and getting worked out through my bench, squat, shoulder/military, push-ups, shoulder press etc..better value exercises all round!

diegowhite

Hanley wrote: »

Ollllllllllllllllllld thread!!

You're not gonna get 18" arms on a 150lb body.

well if he's incredibly short you might

i'm not talking 18" arms (and I'm doubting this dude is either), what i'm saying is if all he wants is big biceps he can do so from training them specifically (and with enough diet to back it)

BaZmO*

celestial wrote: »

but my biceps are still strong and getting worked out through my bench, squat, shoulder/military, push-ups, shoulder press etc..better value exercises all round!

Huh? All those exercises you've mention only use the Biceps as stabilisers.

And your Squat helps develop your Biceps? I'd loved to know how that works.

Hanley

BaZmO* wrote: »

Huh? All those exercises you've mention only use the Biceps as stabilisers.

And your Squat helps develop your Biceps? I'd loved to know how that works.

You biceps work as stabilisers in pull ups now???

The reason he has bigger biceps now is because all those exercises will add muscle all over your body, squats in particular secrete the greatest amount of GH of any exercise. I've seen it written that you need to gain 15-25lbs to see an inch gain on your arms. Your body likes balance. You're not gonna get huge arms fi you're not working everything else.

EDIT: if he was doing direct bicep work his arms would probably be even bigger, but the point remains that his arms have grown without it.

BaZmO*

Hanley wrote: »

You biceps work as stabilisers in pull ups now???

He didn't mention Pull-Ups

Hanley wrote: »

The reason he has bigger biceps now is because all those exercises will add muscle all over your body, squats in particular secrete the greatest amount of GH of any exercise. I've seen it written that you need to gain 15-25lbs to see an inch gain on your arms. Your body likes balance. You're not gonna get huge arms fi you're not working everything else.

EDIT: if he was doing direct bicep work his arms would probably be even bigger, but the point remains that his arms have grown without it.

Oh I agree with all of the above but you have to be at least hitting the biceps in some way, maybe that's what he/she meant by "etc."

Hanley

BaZmO* wrote: »

He didn't mention Pull-Ups



Oh I agree with all of the above but you have to be at least hitting the biceps in some way, maybe that's what he/she meant by "etc."

ooops... I mis-read push ups as pull ups!!

BaZmO*

Hanley wrote: »

ooops... I mis-read push ups as pull ups!!

No worries. Although I had to read his post a few times too just to make sure I hadn't missed it also.

celestial

Hanley wrote: »

You biceps work as stabilisers in pull ups now???

The reason he has bigger biceps now is because all those exercises will add muscle all over your body, squats in particular secrete the greatest amount of GH of any exercise. I've seen it written that you need to gain 15-25lbs to see an inch gain on your arms. Your body likes balance. You're not gonna get huge arms fi you're not working everything else.

EDIT: if he was doing direct bicep work his arms would probably be even bigger, but the point remains that his arms have grown without it.

Thanks Hanley - you saved me having to explain myself!

I have trained different body parts on different days but by and large I do whole body workouts each time I train and the difference is self-evident and, incredible, to be fair. A whole body workout involving bench pressing with squats and push-ups, db rows cannot compare in general terms in my book to going in and doing your upper body split one day and lower body the next. When squatting (I actually use heavy dbells instead of barbell) you can literally feel that growth hormone that Hanley mentioned surging through your entire body. It is hugely demanding and you will be tired in the following days - but a great feeling and a great kind of fatigue. When it comes to muscle growth and development I don't feel we should treat the body in isolation - when we take a drink of coke or eat a meal is only one part of the body affected? No. Many many different parts throughout the body come into play during the one event (the consuming of the drink).

I have just started back training after a month away from the gym and 3 sessions in my biceps are rock hard, and, as I said, I haven't even contemplated a bicep curl in about 3 months - they are rock hard through the squats, benching and push ups I have been doing over those 3 sessions as well as the many push-ups I did to keep myself going over the month off.

BaZmO*

Still doesn't make sense

celestial

BaZmO* wrote: »

Still doesn't make sense

It might not seem logical, but you have to think of the body as a whole. If I do just bicep curls, sure my biceps will grow. BUT, if I do bench presses and if I do dbell rows, I am also working my biceps to some extent. Go do 5 sets of dbell rows and tell me your biceps aren't getting a workout. Same goes for benching believe it or not - go and bench and feel your biceps getting pumped. Same with push-ups. PLUS with these big compound exercises multiple muscle groups are being worked which requires more anabolic and growth hormones. More of these hormones means more growth all round - even in those areas which you haven't trained DIRECTLY. Even when do you squats, which using conventional wisdom you would think will only work your lower body, you will get some mass added to your arms over time, due to the fact that squats have a huge muscle building effect all over the body.

Make more sense now?

Dragan

BaZmO* wrote: »

Still doesn't make sense

Do front squats for 4 sets of 15 reps on you next leg day. Do them so it really cost you to get through all the sets.

Then you'll see what they mean.

rubadub

celestial wrote: »

Even when do you squats, which using conventional wisdom you would think will only work your lower body, you will get some mass added to your arms over time, due to the fact that squats have a huge muscle building effect all over the body.

I always thought this too, wonder if any studies were done. The way I see it your body is under stress and is telling itself to get stronger, it might not be working the arms but could sort of predict that they may as well get stronger too. Sort of the same way your body triggers itself into starvation mode, prediciting it will not see food again and so hangs onto fat. You cannot spot reduce fat in one zone, and I would have thought it hard to put muscle on in specifically one muscle without affecting any others.

Hanley

FTR I do think isolatino training is neccessary.

In the last 3 months my arms are up over half an inch when they're relaxed, but no increase when they're flexed. That tells me all the growth is in my triceps since I've been doing alot of lockout work. I've done very little bicep work in that time, and now my elbows are starting to hurt. I'm nearly certain this is as a result of an imbalance from ignoring a muscle group.

walt0r

I haven't read all the replies here, and am in a rush so I will keep this short. My biceps have always been my weakest point but lately have started to look to be improving. My simple answer is I wasn't doing enough isolation work.
Basically, I always read that isolation curls are a waste of time and just do rows and chins for bigger bi's. Well, I think that rows, chins, pulldowns etc are great exercises but I have started to add way more bicep curls/isolation curls into my back/bi day. I try to lift pretty heavy on them, aiming for 5-8 reps which is 20-22.5kg for curls right now. It just makes me feel like I'm working my biceps more than I was before. I'm going to keep with it for now. Just my 2 cents.

An Citeog

On the whole isolation issue, I started the "Starting Strength" programme last week and so far it's been tough but enjoyable (in a sadistic sort of way!:D). I know that the biceps get a work-out when I'm chinning/benching/etc, but this thread has put a few small doubts in my mind. Would I be as better served to add curls into one of the days or is this a big no no?

BaZmO*

celestial wrote: »

It might not seem logical, but you have to think of the body as a whole. If I do just bicep curls, sure my biceps will grow. BUT, if I do bench presses and if I do dbell rows, I am also working my biceps to some extent. Go do 5 sets of dbell rows and tell me your biceps aren't getting a workout. Same goes for benching believe it or not - go and bench and feel your biceps getting pumped. Same with push-ups. PLUS with these big compound exercises multiple muscle groups are being worked which requires more anabolic and growth hormones. More of these hormones means more growth all round - even in those areas which you haven't trained DIRECTLY. Even when do you squats, which using conventional wisdom you would think will only work your lower body, you will get some mass added to your arms over time, due to the fact that squats have a huge muscle building effect all over the body.

Make more sense now?

I understand the principle of compound movements with regards to muscle development.

The thing was that up until now you hadn't mentioned any compound movements that hit the biceps. You have now and I accept that you can have significant growth on the Biceps from doing Rows, Pull-Ups etc.

However, I still don't buy that doing Squats will benefit Bicep growth.