Passport needed to go to UK from 2009?

Mayo Exile

According to today's Irish Times (Oct 24) Irish citizens will need a passport to enter the UK from 2009 as they are implementing an electronic border control system from that date. The common travel area will cease between the two countries. The Irish government has also decided to implement a similar system at some stage. However the RoI/NI border will remain as it is due to the supposed impossibility of policing such schemes on it.

See here aswell:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1024/1193158824220.html

Bluetonic

Really is a nothing story.

Gillo

Don't you need a passport to fly with most airlines anyway, so it's not really a big deal.

GerardKeating

Mayo Exile wrote: »

According to today's Irish Times (Oct 24) Irish citizens will need a passport to enter the UK from 2009 as they are implementing an electronic border control system from that date. The common travel area will cease between the two countries. The Irish government has also decided to implement a similar system at some stage. However the RoI/NI border will remain as it is due to the supposed impossibility of policing such schemes on it.

See here aswell:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1024/1193158824220.html

With the ending of the common travel area, maybe they will go "Schengen" on us...

Navan Junction

Ah well

munchkin_utd

Hold on.
Are they are also saying that someone in Northern Ireland will need a full bona fide passport to travel to another part of the UK and vice versa?

From the article

The British e-border system will automatically require all air and sea passengers to be in possession of a valid passport to facilitate a journey within the Common Travel Area.

To get from NI to GB you must travel by air or ferry so a passport could be required.
The unionists will love that!!!

Dub13

gillo wrote: »

Don't you need a passport to fly with most airlines anyway, so it's not really a big deal.

Yes BUT...there are other ramification's,have you ever arrived into Gatwick Airport and seen the Q for passport controll...?it was great to head for the lane for flights from Ireland/other UK airports.This could save you a couple of hours.

steve-o

I think the media have got it wrong. My interpretation is this: The concept of a common travel area will remain, but with integrated border systems. I think the passport thing is because in most airports and ferryports it's too difficult/costly to separate arriving common area passengers from others. All air and sea passengers will need passports: that includes flights from Dublin to Shannon, Glasgow to London.

ardmacha

Are they are also saying that someone in Northern Ireland will need a full bona fide passport to travel to another part of the UK and vice versa?

I doubt if anyone is saying this. There was some talk of ID cards in Britain and they could bring in a requirement to have this particular form of photo ID when flying or travelling by boat. This ID would suffice for travel to Ireland also.

The concept of a common travel area will remain, but with integrated border systems.

There isn't much left of the common travel area if Irish and UK citizens have to have the same ID as everyone else. What would make the common travel area meaningful was if people from countries requiring visas had a common visa for the two jurisdictions, albeit they had to produce this visa when travelling from Britain to Ireland.

Stark

gillo wrote: »

Don't you need a passport to fly with most airlines anyway, so it's not really a big deal.

Aer Lingus and Ryanair both let you travel on a driver's license. Aer Arann lets you travel on several different forms of student ID.

Also you don't need passport if you take the ferry.

Victor

munchkin_utd wrote: »

To get from NI to GB you must travel by air or ferry so a passport could be required. The unionists will love that!!!

It has happened before, I think in the 1930s and during the war years.

grahamo

Mayo Exile wrote: »

According to today's Irish Times (Oct 24) Irish citizens will need a passport to enter the UK from 2009 as they are implementing an electronic border control system from that date. The common travel area will cease between the two countries. The Irish government has also decided to implement a similar system at some stage. However the RoI/NI border will remain as it is due to the supposed impossibility of policing such schemes on it.

See here aswell:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1024/1193158824220.html

This should open the way for Ireland to join the Schengen area. If we join this we won't need passports to enter many western European countries so it won't be all bad!

grahamo

grahamo wrote: »

This should open the way for Ireland to join the Schengen area. If we join this we won't need passports to enter many western European countries so it won't be all bad!

If we joined Schengen and the UK didn't,then every road crossing from NI would be forced to have a passport control.

For political reasons that will never be allowed to happen.
The UK don't want to join schengen because it would mean ceding certain border control intracasies to the E.U and the Euro sceptics will never allow that.
Ergo We won't be joining schengen any time soon.

Steviemak

From what I gather all people in the UK will be required to carry an identity card (if resident longer than six months). Otherwise, a passport is needed. Does this mean that we will also be required to carry a passport in the north. Not for border control but as a means of identifying yourself if stopped by police etc.

ardmacha

I'd say the proposed identity card will be a can of worms for residents of the North, especially if it is going to declare your nationality. Leaving well enough alone might be the simplest thing, if no card was needed in the 6 counties through all of the troubles it should not be needed now. However, if this gets going there will have be to be some of Irish ID card.

BendiBus

Dub13 wrote: »

Yes BUT...there are other ramification's,have you ever arrived into Gatwick Airport and seen the Q for passport controll...?it was great to head for the lane for flights from Ireland/other UK airports.This could save you a couple of hours.

****! Never thought of that. I've seen some nightmare queues at passport control in Gatwick. The special exit for ROI passengers is very handy indeed.

Zoney

Bertie's statement about it as reported on Irish Times breaking news made it sound like there'd be passport control at the Northern Ireland border...

From the Irish Times story:

The ending of the Common Travel Area between Ireland and Britain will result in tighter Border controls between the Republic and Northern Ireland the Taoiseach told the Dail this morning.

Asked about the implications of this system for travel between the Republic and the North, Mr Ahern said "we will need further Border security controls".

Can't see that going down well, and it won't just be die-hard Republicans up in arms about it. Why should we lose the current level of freedom just because the UK is turning into a police state and the government here wishes to follow suit? If passport control wasn't needed at the border during the Troubles, why is it needed now just cause there are some other terrorists possibly crossing the border that pose less of a threat to either state than the IRA ever did?

EDIT:

Besides, if this is true and there will be passport control at the NI border, why can the Republic not now go ahead and join Schengen even if UK remains out?

Stark

Is there much advantage to us joining Schengen? I mean we've no land links with Europe, very few ferry links and the fascist security thespians at the airports will require passports anyway.

BendiBus

BendiBus wrote: »

****! Never thought of that. I've seen some nightmare queues at passport control in Gatwick. The special exit for ROI passengers is very handy indeed.

Theres a simple answer to that.
Put UK immigration control at Irish ports and airports to pre clear passengers for entry to GB.
There would have to be enough of them to keep the queues to a minimum given the traffic.
I'd say at least a 100 would do the job in Dublin airport for example.Theres job creation for ya.

Navan Junction

There is no way they'll put border checkpoints back on the border, don't worry about it. It just means you'll flash your passport when you arrive in Britain. There will be no implications for Ireland (other than if you happen to think you are still in Britain and are trying to make your way across the sea mistakenly thinking it is an internal trip).

I would have no problems flashing my Irish passport whilst visiting Britain - I always bring it with me anyway - realistically would you want to go abroad without it anyway?

Stark

It's not the flashing the passport that bothers people; it's the hours of potential queuing to flash the passport that bothers people.

Navan Junction

Stark wrote: »

It's not the flashing the passport that bothers people; it's the hours of potential queuing to flash the passport that bothers people.

Fair enough, but it's never really been an issue with me in all of the places I've gone to other than Britain - Spain, France, Holland, Italy, Belgium, Germany.

Never had any hassles - flashed it and straight through

You could always register for Iris .

Navan Junction

Cool - there ya go. No problems.

Zoney

OK, a clarification from the Taoiseach reported on breakingnews.ie

From the story:

Tighter passport controls between Ireland and the UK will not apply to the Republic's border with the North, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern confirmed today.

However, unionist representatives are concerned the introduction of a new electronic border control system for Britain could force citizens in the North to use a passport to travel from one part of the UK to another.

So, looks like an All-Ireland border control and a GB border control. "Concerned"? That is almost certainly understating it - surely due to Unionist/Northern concerns, this is no more workable than border controls on the NI border would be due to Irish concerns? Not to mention that it seems dodgy for any State to require its citizens to have a passport to travel between one part of it to another.

Navan Junction

It may actually be a positive development.

Zoney wrote: »

Not to mention that it seems dodgy for any State to require its citizens to have a passport to travel between one part of it to another.

Not really. It's not a visa, it's a requirment to show your passport.

It seems that the whole thing merely reflects a redefinition of their borders to a degree.

At the end of the day, geographically Britain is an island so organising their border on that basis makes sense.

It's a bold step, and they should be congratulated

daveirl

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parsi

Navan Junction wrote: »

Fair enough, but it's never really been an issue with me in all of the places I've gone to other than Britain - Spain, France, Holland, Italy, Belgium, Germany.

Never had any hassles - flashed it and straight through

Are you seriously saying that you've never been in a queue for passport control ?

In fairness there's a bloody queue in Dublin and that's coming from Cork !

Navan Junction

But isn't the common travel zone treaty up for renewal?

They already share information and have an agreed visa policy so what Lenihan said isn't really a change

Navan Junction

parsi wrote: »

Are you seriously saying that you've never been in a queue for passport control ?

In fairness there's a bloody queue in Dublin and that's coming from Cork !

Of course I have, and it has mainly been in Dublin.

But the queues move quickly, not like the departure queue in Dublin

The only bad queue I remember was in the US of A

fricatus

To me, it sounds like the whole idea wasn't particularly well thought through. It's like they said "let's secure Bwitain's borders to stop the tewwowists!" and ploughed ahead with this e-borders nonsense, before someone piped up "eh, what about Eyeh-land?"

If they're going to require passports for entry into the UK, then they have to check them at the NI-ROI border. It's as simple as that. Otherwise, someone (let's say a terrorist) could drive up the M1 from Dublin to Belfast International and fly over to Heathrow (on Aer Lingus ). Bingo! They're in the UK, without a passport check!

The other alternatives are:
- to require passports from people travelling from NI to GB (I can see the unionists loving that one: "But I'm Breddish!" - "Yeah, awright mate, show's yer pawsport, yeah?")
- to cooperate closely with the Irish authorities on maintaining the Common Travel Area, which would mean accepting our border controls on trust, as we would accept theirs. This seems like the only workable option (short of them "giving back the six").

daveirl

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Carawaystick

The Auld N54 would introduce problems if there was to be real immigration/passport control at the border. I heard some hairy stories of the Air corps choppering in cops to do checks back in the day - no way by road without going through one of the 6 counties...

For us to join schengen would mean every single person in Ireland would have to carry ID when in public all the time and a complete change to the presumption of innocence, where you could be criminally punished for not having ID. No further steps to a gestapo country please EC NO 1546/2006 is bad enough.

Navan Junction

I'd welcome a seperate border control for the whole island, and it would make a lot of sense.

The border isn't going to be re-erected as in the past. You'd have people taking pops at it and it would be a complete waste of money with no return as it wouldn't even have historic protectionist customs function.

If there is an all-Ireland border, then Ireland can stay ID-card free indefinately, without having to worry about policies in other countries, ie Britain in particular.

It could also reduce the need for shared information between both countries in some instances.

Similarly, overtime it could also bring some order to many problems, and might help enforce the seperateness of the entire island internationally, something which would help in agriculture as an example.

Skip forward a few steps and it could allow, or at least give the six counties that space needed to reduce corporation tax without "regional precedent" argument used in Britain.

That could also facilitate longer term a change in taxation rates on fuel which facilitate the border fuel smuggling industry.

I say go for it, Gordon - it's worth a flash of the passport when visiting from Ireland.

BendiBus

Navan Junction wrote: »

It seems that the whole thing merely reflects a redefinition of their borders to a degree.

I'm not sure the Unionist population of NI would agree with your use of the word 'merely' :eek:

And your points in the post immediately above, while all true, and generally supported by unionists, would, if associated with the 'mere' redefinition of borders, be seen as a rather slippery slope.

Navan Junction

BendiBus wrote: »

a rather slippery slope.

Hmmm, maybe. But in reality, the current set-up is a bit of a mess anyway.

Flag waving aside, the reality is that geographically and in many other respects north and south are two parts of a single whole.

We work better together than against each other. And this island would function better as a unit in these areas than trying to work against a natural border that could scarcely be better defined in a geographic sense anywhere else in the world.

Unionists know that, but with a few recent exceptions rarely admit it in public. As the song goes, we are entirely surrounded by water. And that is a geographic reality which is more compelling than any geographic labels that are dreamt up to hide that fact.

We need not just to live with it but to use this island's real border to the entire island's advantage. And realistically that is something that all communities here can recognise, though it may be problematic on an emotional level for some

AlekSmart

And as if by magic,just to show Mr Lenihan just how nonsensical all of this stuff is without Full and Proper implimentation procedures,who should show up last Monday on Sir Thomas Grey`s statue opposite Easons of O Connell St....Yes...You`ve guesssed it......The core elements of the "Original (and best) M50 Roundabout Roma Troupe"

Obviously fresh in and jet lagged from the journey,there was a great amount of Halooing,waving and much flashing of Golden smiles from the Street`s Early Shift Roma Ladies as the returnees bade all and sundry a hearty welcome....

Bio Metrics and Iris Recognition my brown backside sez Ioan and Maria Eleana o Mhùirichu..... :eek:

monument

Feck, I knew I should have said I was J Bourne when last using Rail and Sail back from London, probably missed my last chance... for which I at least have no recall of showing my passport or any ID.

The Labour leader put out a good question/statement in the Dail: will it be the case where you can go to GB by ferry vie NI without a passport, but you'll need one when going direct from Dublin to Holyhead?

Bluetonic wrote: »

Really is a nothing story.

Navan Junction wrote: »

I would have no problems flashing my Irish passport whilst visiting Britain - I always bring it with me anyway - realistically would you want to go abroad without it anyway?

It's highly likely it won't be a matter or flashing it, but rather having it scanned.

daveirl wrote: »

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Funny that, I was watching the Bert on the Dail report program on RTE last night and he said pretty much what the Irish Times did in their front page story.

daveirl wrote: »

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The change is you'll need a passport while currently you don't (airline requirements aside).

A Dub in Glasgo

Bit of a pain, I have never used my passport for travelling by air or ferry between Britain & Ireland. I have always used my photographic driving licence. I did not renew my passport 3 years ago as I do not go on holiday outside of Britain & Ireland. I will now have to give the Government the money to get one and keep renewing it.

Big change that

daveirl

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A Dub in Glasgo

daveirl wrote: »

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Obviously not very good at enforcing it then as I have never been asked to produce my passport when travelling between Britain & Ireland

daveirl

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Navan Junction

monument wrote: »

It's highly likely it won't be a matter or flashing it, but rather having it scanned.

OK, a flash of the scanner!

Navan Junction

Madam, - The main front-page report in your edition of October 24th suggests that it has been possible to travel between Britain and Ireland without any identity document since 1922. Your political editor has obviously not tried to enter the State from Great Britain through Dublin or Cork airports in the past ten years. All passengers arriving at those airports from Britain, although they may sometimes start in a channel designated "Arrivals from United Kingdom, Isle of Man and Channel Islands" end up at passport control and are asked for a passport in the same way as any other international arrival.

On several occasions I have protested the existence of the Common Travel Area, only to be told that it is now Irish Government policy to check the identity of everyone arriving at those airports on an "international" flight. You will be aware that arrivals at British airports from Ireland are treated as "domestic" and that there is no systematic identity check or passport control. There are occasional checks by the police, not immigration officials, under the Terrorism Act, on the identity of individuals arriving from Northern Ireland and the Republic.

In answer to a parliamentary question in the House of Commons on March 21st this year, I was told by the then Minister of State for the Home Office, Liam Byrne, that the Irish Government informed the UK Government on June 28th, 1997 that immigration checks on passengers arriving from the UK would take place at Irish airports from that date.

The Common Travel Area for air passengers arriving in Ireland has been dead for 10 years. I regret the passing of that historic bond between our two nations. Is it beyond the electronic wit of man to use the opportunity of the collection of airline passenger data under the new "e-borders" regime to again return to the free movement of people between the two nations? - Yours, etc,

ROBERT WALTER MP,

House of Commons,

London SW.

****

Madam, - The ending of the Common Travel Area between Ireland and Britain, which has existed since the foundation of the State in 1922, will mean very little change to a situation which has existed de facto for many years at British and Irish airports. I cannot remember the last time I wasn't asked for my passport at the point of departure in Britain and again at subsequent arrival in Dublin. - Yours, etc,

PATRICK O'BYRNE,

Shandon Crescent,

Phibsborough,

Dublin 7.

A Dub in Glasgo

Those 2 letters do not tally with my experience and I have travelled loads of times over the last 10 years.

I think the 2nd letter is referring to the fact the he had no ID other than his passport when checking in for his flight!!

Navan Junction

I think that MP is also forgetting about exclsuion orders which the British government was fond of serving at one time

daveirl

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a bientot

Important dates: 6 November (Bruxelles) and 21 December (Schengen Day for Nine)
Here below info on government minister's contribution to the issue on RTE's SaturdayView today...
Poor an t-Uasal O Cuiv attempted to reassure the Irish population that even though their passports would be scanned before entering the Great Britain part of the U.K. thus, de facto, requesting permission to enter.... no one (no Irish person?) would be refused permission to enter G.B. having sought permission before leaving Ireland on a carrier to G.B.
This right was sacrosanct, apparently. How strange.
Schengen rejects to-Spain individual departures at Dublin airport regularly........

This proves the point on why people have to produce passports for government border police in the first place. How can one be given/refused permission if one has not requested permission to do so in the first place.....

There was some waffle on ‘the most unique land border in the world’..........no one mentioned Cyprus nor the huge border at the edge of eastern Schengen......nor the huge border around Switzerland until it joins Schengen in October 2008 while maintaining customs and excise controls, of course.
An t-Uasal O Cuiv also failed to mention that the state has maintained ownership of the land where the old customs posts were so they can be used as Schengen (or the unimaginable alternative) Immigration posts.

Possibly due to time restrictions (that crazy driving license issue........) Schengen, per se, did not get a mention from the minister...

If we were in Schengen we'd be in 27 countries while still being in Ireland.
Just think of that.......the alternative should be no no no.

Navan Junction

a bientot wrote: »

If we were in Schengen we'd be in 27 countries while still being in Ireland.
Just think of that.......the alternative should be no no no.

I'd agree with that - I could see this country becoming a gangsta's hide-away, similar to that which has happened with sex-offenders that relocated here from the UK, if we became part of Schengen.

Now if we had a pourous border where attempts at monotoring who was moving here was impossible, then fair enough.

But we do have a natural border in our coastline and a border which is actually manageable.

And if the six-county area comes in on it, then it really is feasible

jlang

Just for kicks, I've always made a point of only showing my boarding card at Dublin passport control when arriving from Britain. I've always had my passport in my pocket as I used it to check in earlier. Never had any issue. Similar when going the other way.

mackerski

daveirl wrote: »

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If we are to believe that, then it's good news - a CTA that works like Schengen wouldn't force us through "passport control" on the way back from Britain.