Drink Wars in LKY

Senna

Dalfiatach wrote: »

We should just dump licensing laws altogether and let pubs open whenever they want and sell alcohol at whatever price they want. Sure, the whole country will go buck mad for a few weeks....and then we'll all calm down, drink will be no big deal, and we won't have thousands of young people horsing the booze into them for the few hours they are allowed to then all spilling out pissed onto the streets at once. The current set-up is just stupid.

the current set-up is quite stupid in this day and age, but because we have had these type of licensing laws for so long, the solution to the problem isn't just to scrap all them. The whole country wouldn't go buck mad, only a small percentage, these are the people that you wouldn't really want going mad, for their own health and safety, and everybody else's.

this harks back to McDowell's plan for cafe bar's. Just cause it works on the continent, doesn't mean it will work over here, simply because we have these licensing laws that encourage binge drinking. Peoples attitudes to drinking will have to change before licensing laws can be changed, but people's attitudes are because of these laws. so its a catch 22 situation.

As Dalfiatach says this whole price promotion thing just shows how much we are being ripped off when it comes to drink. Ireland is becoming a nation of home drinkers and this trend will only increase. But pubs will keep putting up prices to try and keep making the profits on sales that they were making 5-10 years ago.

If i had the money, i'd invest in an off-license, its the way of the future for the drinks industry.

donegalman1

I think its interesting to see how the situation has developed, not just since the smoking ban but nowadays people are trying to get on or are on the property ladder and more consious of their spending. where the pub once was a centre of social life, now it is a luxury. When I first read the post I actually thought about the abaility of supermarkets ability to cut price sell drink also, quite legally, and this could lead to its own social problems in the future. Govt see alcohol as an evil and public order cost in some ways but a great revenue maker in others.

Its a half arsed irish solution to an irish problem. Let them drink at home, lift them driving in the morning and we are quids up both ways. Without defending the publicans, I don't think its a great example to have a fridge of beer being drank infront of kids either, and I'm sure it happens.

I've no doubt the problem this thread is about is that venues are trying to win loyalty by short term deals. Insurance costs etc play a big part. I agree somewhat with pub owners gripe that there is no regulation on drinking at home which could become a problem in future years but from a Donegal point of veiw its interesting to watch NI now grappling with the likes of the smoking ban and I'm sure the other laws brought in here will be brought in their also in time.

I think Ireland in general couldn't cope with its newfound wealth and with the availability of alcopops etc. Many of the posts talk about back in the day when we had a few cheap pints rather than nowadays when shorts and alcopops are being offered at giveaway prices. A few pints were in most cases suffiecent.

I wonder whether a reduction or limit on the alcohol content per drink would be feasible, in my experience, cocktails, alcopops and shorts are pretty lethal.

Letterkenny is a great entertainment town and no doubt cheapening it or drink would serve the town no good whatsoever, nor the industry, its owners or employees. We should support its status and those employed through it, people or comapnies who start drinks wars should be named and shamed, others might not follow or be encouraged.
Following up on the original post its quite interesting to investigate what went on and from what I've being told, the initial problem and its response from the authorities was dismal. Having said that, a response eventually came.

Senna

donegalman1 wrote: »

I agree somewhat with pub owners gripe that there is no regulation on drinking at home

just picking up on this, are the pub owners (and the VFI, i guess) really wanting regulations on drinking at home?
This shows the moronic nature of the industry (maybe just a small part) and their complete ineptness to adapt to changes in society.

donegalman1

I'm not sure theres a policy on that, but I've often heard the arguement trundled out on radio etc that because people are being 'forced' to stay at home with things like the smoking ban, then they argue someone will be taking bigger measures and perhaps drinking longer into the night.

I don't think they are avocating regulation but using the argument to press against reforms in the industry. I worked in a bar before and its very difficult to see how the system could be changed and even some of the existing laws are hard to enforce. I support the smoking ban also and don't think it has been the real demise of pub culture in Ireland. Everyones posts point out to pricing as a big concern.

I suppose the whole question is how mature of a society are we, can we look after ourselves at home, and even, if there suddenly were cheap drinks why can't people control themselves.

inode

just after noticing this topic. i work in the 1.99 nightclub. We were donig nothing illegal as its not classed as a promotion if the prices stay at 1.99 for a full 24 hours.

Although during the week the gards had a meeting with both clubs and asked the clubs to end both the drinks prices. They both agreed.

I personally think there is nothing wrong with cheap drink, it just shows how much were being ripped off when we pay full price.

donegalman1

I think there is some truth in that 24 hour law, though is the club not under the same license as the pub. AFAIK when this is the case, the bar has to sell 1.99 also.

danniemcq

i heard rumours that this is stoppin though cause the gardai are gettin pissed off anyone else hear?

il gatto

inode's right. It is illegal to sell drink at lower prices for part of any day. You can sell cheap drink (who's to say what's technically "cheap" anyway) as long as that's your prices for that entire day. "Happy Hours" are not legal any more.
There is still a nice margin on cheap drink anyway. If you can buy Miller in a supermarket at €1 a bottle I'm sure the clubs who buy in bulk get at least as good a price before selling it on at €4.80 a bottle (well that's what it costs in Sligo anyway). Any night club that's busy in any way is turning a hefty profit.

jimmycrackcorm

il gatto wrote: »

Any night club that's busy in any way is turning a hefty profit.

For three hours one or two nights a week anyway. If you think it is so profitable why not invest in one? I suspect the only people who invest in nightclubs are those who already are making money in some other area. No one in their right mind would say I'll invest in setting up a new nightclub and it'll be my only source of income.

Senna

their like a lot of other business, they take a long time to turn a profit, but when they do they can make the owners very rich. The main difference is there is huge initial expenditure required to open a niteclub.

the Grill being the best example, its completely self-sufficient.

Nobody open a niteclub to lose money, it just take time.

donegalman1

I don't think its that simple. Letterkenny has, without a doubt niteclubs to equal and more likely surpass any in Ireland. Millions are invested. By the time you pay DJs, Bouncers, Barstaff etc and promotion not to mention trying to keep up with what the rest are doing then you soon would rack up the costs.
an ad in the local paper can be €1000 a week, a reasonable UK big name DJ upwards of a few grand at least, then ten or twelve security at €90 per man. It soon adds up. A good decor and lighting initially and then you have to hope your club or pub will cut it in the open market.

In fairness, the club that slashed drink prices to 1.99 had to even though they had invested quite a lot in a brand new venue. Its reasonable to assume this was a gimmick for a few weeks to gather some loyalty, even so they must have had tough conversations with the accountant and certainly did not plan to do it long term. The claim culture in Ireland has left this industry in serious bother and I'm told this is why we now drink the celebrated pint in many bars from a plastic glass, which does nothing for it.

Its changed times, and what we are really seeing is a realignment within the pub trade. I would not open a pub or club and those who have recently are really clutching at straws in an effort to assume a crown that no longer exists.

Senna mentioned the grill. Its a shadow of the place we all grew up with. They have plans for bigger and better things but, who knows...

I'm not defending the industry pricing, but its a major employer in Donegal and Letterkenny in particular. That has to be accepted and we really need to look be a bit more critical of excise duties and insurance claims too to be fair.

TPD

I was at one of the 1.99 nights a few weeks ago, good fun. That club is now handing out flyers to students, at the opposite side of the college gate to a person from the other club handing out free passes. €30 brings you a bit too far on a €2 drink night though. Havent tried the 2 for 1 drink night, and sounds like its over. Theyre not advertising it any more anyway.

I found it funny that on each updated flyer there was a jibe at the other club, back and forth for a few weeks.

danniemcq

yeah i was in milan last free in with pass they give near the door but 3 euro for drinks no get one free then went to voodoo euro in and drinks all 3 quid my liver was happy my bank balance an i weren't

il gatto

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

For three hours one or two nights a week anyway. If you think it is so profitable why not invest in one? I suspect the only people who invest in nightclubs are those who already are making money in some other area. No one in their right mind would say I'll invest in setting up a new nightclub and it'll be my only source of income.

I don't invest in one as there is no opening for another one where I live. As such, banks will not finance a loan for one without huge collateral, which I don't have. It is a massively profitable business. It's as often a case of having made a mint from their club, these people go on to invest some of their earnings in other things, as much as successful businessmen puting money in a club after they've madetheir money.
donegalman1, I'm afraid you've believed the poor mouth from these people. Let's look at the reality. We'll over estimate just to be on the safe side. 15 bouncers at €100 a night is €1500. 15 bar staff at €60 a night is €900. 15 floor staff at €50 is €750. Your usual D.J. + Light jockey at €250 each is €500. Cloakroom staff X4 at €50 is €200. Ticket dest staff X3 at €70 is €210. Electricity? Maybe €500 (for arguments sake) Insurance? €500? Cleaners next day X2 at €80 is €160. Maintainance maybe €200. Advertising usually €500 at most. Total of less than €6000. If you have 1000 customers at €10 on Saturday you take €10,000 on the door. Even if you only charge €6 you're covering your cost on the door before a single drink is sold. Those costs are exaggerated. It's possible for a busy club to take €30,000-€40,000 at the bars. Many club owners are taking away gross profits of €20,000+ on their Saturday nights alone. That is the reality, but to some extent greed, but more honestly, a wish to keep in with the Vintners and not wish to be seen as too well off means club owners are ownly too willing to join in with lamenting high insurance, the smoking ban and drink driving laws as crippling their business.

Senna

i think your both looking at this a bit too simplistic, the way most niteclubs will work, for the first few years anyway, is the owner will make a wage (a set wage every month, just like any other staff members wages that has to be paid, only more) then all the rest of the money will go on expensive first, then paying of the bank loan. The bank will state they have to be paid €100000 per month (for example) and from my experience a lot of companies wont make that, but will make enough to keep the bank manager at bay.

There was a statistic published not ago, stating that most (90% or more) pubs in Ireland are better off now than they were 5 years ago. The 10% or so is the rural pubs that haven't faired as well, but rural pubs have always been in a weaker situation, and many rural pubs closed before the smoking ban, drink driving laws and minimum wages changes.

The vast majority of pubs and clubs are making money no mater what they say, they may be mortgaged to the sky, but thats money thats going into their investment.

donegalman1

il gatto wrote: »

I don't invest in one as there is no opening for another one where I live. As such, banks will not finance a loan for one without huge collateral, which I don't have. It is a massively profitable business. It's as often a case of having made a mint from their club, these people go on to invest some of their earnings in other things, as much as successful businessmen puting money in a club after they've madetheir money.
donegalman1, I'm afraid you've believed the poor mouth from these people. Let's look at the reality. We'll over estimate just to be on the safe side. 15 bouncers at €100 a night is €1500. 15 bar staff at €60 a night is €900. 15 floor staff at €50 is €750. Your usual D.J. + Light jockey at €250 each is €500. Cloakroom staff X4 at €50 is €200. Ticket dest staff X3 at €70 is €210. Electricity? Maybe €500 (for arguments sake) Insurance? €500? Cleaners next day X2 at €80 is €160. Maintainance maybe €200. Advertising usually €500 at most. Total of less than €6000. If you have 1000 customers at €10 on Saturday you take €10,000 on the door. Even if you only charge €6 you're covering your cost on the door before a single drink is sold. Those costs are exaggerated. It's possible for a busy club to take €30,000-€40,000 at the bars. Many club owners are taking away gross profits of €20,000+ on their Saturday nights alone. That is the reality, but to some extent greed, but more honestly, a wish to keep in with the Vintners and not wish to be seen as too well off means club owners are ownly too willing to join in with lamenting high insurance, the smoking ban and drink driving laws as crippling their business.

I'm not looking at this simplisitically though I'd admire your ability to rhyme off figures at random. Some are a bit exaggerated, but you have forgotten rates, the initial investment and seriously undercooked insurance which we all pay over the odds for from car to home and in part on everything we actually purchase.
When I worked in one of Letterkennys busiest bars, I can categorically state there would have been no €20000 profits on a night.

In my opinion many open clubs for an ego boost!

Now someone brought in the off license scenario. How often will you hear off a someone making a claim of one. How much do those 12 vot 50 watt lights in shops cost to buy and fit etc etc etc compared to a lighting system in a niteclub. I mean why does a steak cost me €25 in a restaurant and €4 in a shop........Every business is out to make a profit and Ireland is a dear place to do business...its not just publicans saying it.

I don't mind paying for a good nights entertainment and a pint where its worth a night out. On a night out a baby sitter, a taxi and a meal for example also have been well hiked up in Ireland.

In effect this post complained about cheap drink and now we are changing the subject altogether.

Lets face it this "war" could have resulted in cheaper drinks for all, all of the time but we and the Gardai by all accounts objected to it.

There are plenty of free venues and everyone has a choice so I'm not sure if we can we can really object to free enterprise, however quality and people not falling drunk around me don't appeal. Sure its a novelty these days, but we're lucky in many respects, take Dublin for example.

il gatto

I have worked in several nightclubs and even the ones paying back on large initial investment are making huge profits. I was working the insurance out on the basis of a club open most nights, say 5 a week. That's around €125,000 a year. Maybe it's more but I doubt it.
The figures are far from random and I can categorically state that such profits are common for a successful nightclub.
Regardless of the fact that some owners pay themselves a set wage, the net worth of their business will leave them wealthy should they decide to sell up.
The off licence scenario is important because the margins made by club owners, especially considering the cover charge on the door, far exceeds what's necessary to turn a good profit. If a club can cover all their expenses at the door (and most do) before selling drink at 300% minimum markup, if they're struggling to make big profits, there's a bigger problem somewhere.
The biggest selling spirit is vodka. Bought in at less than €15 per bottle and sold for €80+. One club I've worked in sold 60 bottles in one bar on a busy night. That's around €6,000 gross profit on one drink in one bar.
The "war" in Letterkenny is similar to one in Bundoran a couple of years back. One super pub undercut the other one until they called an éntante. If you sell enough of something with a smaller margin, you still turn a profit, but it's a short term thing. Once the punters flood back, the offers are cut. It unfortunately encourages young people to binge massively and can't be good in the long run. If drink were cheaper in general, the novelty would wear off and the result would be the usual level of binging, but everyone would have a few quid extra every week. People know it is a short term offer and abuse it accordingly. If the Vintners Association weren't so controlling, many pubs would probably be better value for money than at the moment. The only competition is Off Licence drink, and as big a market share as that's grabbed, Irish people's fondness (my own included:)) for the social aspect of pubs and clubs, means that any venue making an decent effort to get customers, is safe for the forseeable future.
Sorry for the lenght of the post.:o

Senna

donegalman1 wrote: »

Lets face it this "war" could have resulted in cheaper drinks for all, all of the time but we and the Gardai by all accounts objected to it.

If a club and pub wanted to sell drink at €1.99 or €3 each all the time, no-one including the garda would be complaining. Even if the offer is on all day and so within the law, they are not doing it everyday and thats why there was complaints.
This was encouraging binge drinking in the 17-23yr segment of the town. thats who it was aimed at and thats who availed of the cheap drink. These clubs weren't doing it because they though their drink was too dear and they could afford to lower prices.
i don't think anyone thinks this was done to benefit the public.

jimmycrackcorm

il gatto wrote: »

donegalman1, I'm afraid you've believed the poor mouth from these people. Let's look at the reality. We'll over estimate just to be on the safe side. 15 bouncers at €100 a night is €1500. 15 bar staff at €60 a night is €900. 15 floor staff at €50 is €750. Your usual D.J. + Light jockey at €250 each is €500. Cloakroom staff X4 at €50 is €200. Ticket dest staff X3 at €70 is €210. Electricity? Maybe €500 (for arguments sake) Insurance? €500? Cleaners next day X2 at €80 is €160. Maintainance maybe €200. Advertising usually €500 at most. Total of less than €6000. If you have 1000 customers at €10 on Saturday you take €10,000 on the door. Even if you only charge €6 you're covering your cost on the door before a single drink is sold. Those costs are exaggerated. It's possible for a busy club to take €30,000-€40,000 at the bars. Many club owners are taking away gross profits of €20,000+ on their Saturday nights alone. That is the reality, but to some extent greed, but more honestly, a wish to keep in with the Vintners and not wish to be seen as too well off means club owners are ownly too willing to join in with lamenting high insurance, the smoking ban and drink driving laws as crippling their business.

Well thought out figures except for the multi-million investment in the club itself followed by more expensive renovations every few years.

il gatto

Even club owners have to feed the golden goose:D

inode

i wish light jockeys got 250 a night lol

il gatto

I was just over estimating things for the sake of argument. There are places where they pay that though. Or close to it. I suppoese it depends on what they want done, but more importantly, how well they can bluff the owner/manager. The right spiel is all it takes. I've seen D.J.s with less skill and expertise oust good, expirienced guys from nights ina club, and somehow manage to get paid twice as much into the bargain. Club/pub entertainment is a happy hunting ground for chancers.

The Moist Buddha

those were the good old days, the swilly inn and oasis bar had great promos also