i want legal action against irish rail!

sabrina99

i moved to sallins last year and am forced to commute to northside dublin every day for work which means rail,luas and dart EVERYDAY.
as most commuters on this line will ave noticed is that the rail service has gotten progressively worse over the course of the year. why should i be expected to pay €34 a week for a train that
a)i havent had a seat on for over 3 weeks
b)cramped in between carriages with, on average 25 other people
c)sometimes feel close to collapse (along with numerous other people and a pregnant woman i felt really sorry for a couple of days ago.

i feel its only a matter of time that someone does get injured due to this dangerous overcrowding. surely this is a health and safety issue. and also isnt it a breach of contract when i buy a ticket for a service that isnt delivered?
as usual irishrail dont bother responding to e-mails and brush off telephone calls with rubbish jargon like "a senior inspector is looking into it".
if i was a small bus operator with a 15 seater bus and the gardai stopped me with 17 people on board, no doubt i would receive a hefty fine and a warning. so why can irish rail and bus eireann continue to dangerously overcrowd their buses and trains without repercussion?

the long and short of it is i would like to take action against irishrail to force themto either
a) run a service that isnt an absolute disgrace, or
b) sue them for a refund of my travel costs (only the last 3 weeks and counting) as i am not greedy and did once get a seat on the train a long long time ago...

anyone here with any advice? or better still anyone working in the legal system that can help me out?

cheers

corktina

sabrina99 wrote:

i moved to sallins last year and am forced to commute to northside dublin every day for work which means rail,luas and dart EVERYDAY.
as most commuters on this line will ave noticed is that the rail service has gotten progressively worse over the course of the year. why should i be expected to pay €34 a week for a train that
a)i havent had a seat on for over 3 weeks
b)cramped in between carriages with, on average 25 other people
c)sometimes feel close to collapse (along with numerous other people and a pregnant woman i felt really sorry for a couple of days ago.

i feel its only a matter of time that someone does get injured due to this dangerous overcrowding. surely this is a health and safety issue. and also isnt it a breach of contract when i buy a ticket for a service that isnt delivered?
as usual irishrail dont bother responding to e-mails and brush off telephone calls with rubbish jargon like "a senior inspector is looking into it".
if i was a small bus operator with a 15 seater bus and the gardai stopped me with 17 people on board, no doubt i would receive a hefty fine and a warning. so why can irish rail and bus eireann continue to dangerously overcrowd their buses and trains without repercussion?

the long and short of it is i would like to take action against irishrail to force themto either
a) run a service that isnt an absolute disgrace, or
b) sue them for a refund of my travel costs (only the last 3 weeks and counting) as i am not greedy and did once get a seat on the train a long long time ago...

anyone here with any advice? or better still anyone working in the legal system that can help me out?

cheers

you havent a leg to stand on....which is unfortunate when you cant get a seat isnt it....

so advice? move to the northside? find an alternative transport system? go earlier/later? contact your TD, often and loudly, ? start a Users group for your line to lobby IE?

sorry but oversrowding at peak hours is the same the world over...not much you can do but put up with it BECAUSE if they improve the service it will attract more passengers still or if they up the price to choke off demand they will get hammered in the press etc...

Is the €34 just for the train bit or for the through journey? It sounds incredibly cheap to me if its for the whole lot.... €7 a day or so....

sabrina99

€34 for the train, i still have to pay for the dart then. not really helpful suggestions you posted by the way and i have no option to move as i bought a house in sallins cos it "close" to dublin.
and i t shouldnt be expected to be crammed at rush hour, its not a big job to put on 2 extra trains.

mikemac

sabrina99 wrote:

i moved to sallins last year and am forced to commute to northside dublin every day for work which means rail,luas and dart EVERYDAY.

I don't know your situation but if you've bought property in Sallins, then surely you knew what to expect. Noone forces you to commute, find a new job or move closer to work.

If Irish Rail could be sued then it would have been done long ago and the overcrowding you mention is nothing compared to the Maynooth line.
You and your fellow passengers may feel close to collapse but you haven't given examples of people fainting so while it's uncomfortable, it's not so bad.

If you could win such a case then the tube in London, the metro in Japan and just about every rail operater who run a peak-time service in an urban area could be sued.

Someone will be along shortly to give figures that a carraige is tested to hold x amount of people so no H&S guidlines are being breached.

(It's a long post, using Caps Locks helps us to help you )

sabrina99

micmclo wrote:

I don't know your situation but if you've bought property in Sallins, then surely you knew what to expect. Noone forces you to commute, find a new job or move closer to work.

If Irish Rail could be sued then it would have been done long ago and the overcrowding you mention is nothing compared to the Maynooth line.
You and your fellow passengers may feel close to collapse but you haven't given examples of people fainting so while it's uncomfortable, it's not so bad.

If you could win such a case then the tube in London, the metro in Japan and just about every rail operater who run a peak-time service in an urban area could be sued.

Someone will be along shortly to give figures that a carraige is tested to hold x amount of people so no H&S guidlines are being breached.

(It's a long post, using Caps Locks helps us to help you )

yep thats it. good old irish mentality. bend over and take it. lets all of us tens of thousands of commuters leave and take the plentiful jobs that are on offer outside dublin, as we all know ireland has tonnes of jobs around the country

mikemac

Are you looking for advice at all?
Two posters gave their advice and you've disregarded it.
It may not be what you want to hear but it's what the majority of posters here will tell you.

You commute from another county and now have a job that takes three seperate journey's on public transport.
Did you even think about this before you moved or was the sum of your plan to buy "cos it was close to dublin".:rolleyes:

Tbh if you can't be bothered to type properly, I can't be bothered to read this.
You won't take legal action as people who talk and moan the most, do the least.

Look into getting an annual ticket as I think it saves money through your tax somehow. May be cheaper than a weekly ticket.

John R

sabrina99 wrote:

€34 for the train, i still have to pay for the dart then. not really helpful suggestions you posted by the way and i have no option to move as i bought a house in sallins cos it "close" to dublin.
and i t shouldnt be expected to be crammed at rush hour, its not a big job to put on 2 extra trains.

It's called rush hour for a reason. TBH I can't think of any city that has commuter trains that provide seats for everybody, it just is not going to happen.

You should have looked at a map, Sallins is not particularly near Dublin, especially for someone who works in a suburb on the other side of the city.

I sympathise to a certain extent with the people who felt they had no choice but to buy houses way outside the city but it WAS a choice that you made and it is no good to complain that the services are not good enough. You should have checked these things out before buying.

Huge numbers of people have done the same, bought houses in places too far away from their employment with poor transport links and then demanded that the links be instantly improved to suit their lifestyle choices.


You have no legal case whatsoever, the safety regulations for railway carriages allows for loadings in excess of what is physically possibile. You always have the choice of not getting on or getting off at an intermediate station if you feel unwell.

The sort of conditions on crowded Irish trains are mild compared to many other cities with higher ambient temperatures and underground systems that hold in heat. People fainting has more to do with poor health and the non-eating of a proper breakfeast.

In case you didn't find any of this helpful then may i suggest that a weekly medium hop commuter ticket at €45 for Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann (but not LUAS) might save you a few quid.

sabrina99

micmclo wrote:

Are you looking for advice at all?
Two posters gave their advice and you've disregarded it.
It may not be what you want to hear but it's what the majority of posters here will tell you.

You commute from another county and now have a job that takes three seperate journey's on public transport.
Did you even think about this before you moved or was the sum of your plan to buy "cos it was close to dublin".:rolleyes:

Tbh if you can't be bothered to type properly, I can't be bothered to read this.
You won't take legal action as people who talk and moan the most, do the least.

Look into getting an annual ticket as I think it saves money through your tax somehow. May be cheaper than a weekly ticket.

i dont see what your problem with my typing is. i have read back through it and see anything wrong except for a couple of spelling mistakes. anyway my point is that if enough pressure was put on companies like irish rail then we wouldnt be forced to endure their crap service.

murphaph

Sabrina-forget about tackling Irish Rail directly. You do have the right to expect better from them of course. We have a 3rd world public transport 'network' but you need to tackle the root cause.............the political system and the self serving scabs that infest it. Corktina gave you good advice-contact your TD loudly and often. Contact the Minister for Transport. Contact the Dept. of the Taoiseach. He is ultimately responsible.

Join the user group for the Kildare line. Start at ... http://www.railusersireland.org/

Expect better, demand better. Vote. Make sure your neighbours vote. We get the infrastructure we deserve.

sabrina99

thanks murphaph. nice to see someone being helpful. i think the other poster may have had a problem because i abbreviated the word "because".
sad:rolleyes:
this week alone i have contacted the gardai, dept of transport, irish rial (numerous times) and ombudsman. they all just pass the can so to speak.
maybe it is time to start hounding local politicians:D

murphaph

and national ones. A politician thinks more than half a dozen emails from 6 different people is a deluge and will take note. That's because we as a nation almost never complain to these people. Good on you for getting riled up and making waves.

Zoney

As regards the comparison with a small bus being over-capacity, it's no good. Only minibuses, coaches etc. are "no standing" (and so strictly capacity of the seats available). Even normal Bus Éireann city buses have heaps of standing room - they are seldom loaded to the max load even if seemingly packed.

From what I know, train carriages are allowed to have quite a lot of standing people, even the intercity type. Commuter ones are supposed to have buckets of standing room, figuratively sardine cans on wheels.

Of course, people shouldn't be crammed on from the very far away stops - there should at the very least be capacity for those at stations closer to the destination. There probably isn't (or at least, not comfortably - as I say, it's entirely possible the most packed DART doesn't come close to the theoretical max capacity).

Ultimately, the government is to blame for the whole modus operandi of living that's evolved in Dublin area (and indeed nationwide). Despite their attempts to pretend they aren't responsible for anything, they absolutely are. It wouldn't matter if they privatised every service in the book, that shouldn't get them off the hook - they are the ones responsible for running the country properly, regardless of who the service providers are. The current situation with public transport suits them perfectly though, as people will all decide publicly run services are a joke, and insist on privatisation. Then with private companies providing a shoddy service and charging an arm and a leg, the government can hold up its hands and say "nothing we can do". If they have a regulatory authority, it's even worse, as the government can just blame them, and the regulator will be trying to pretend everything is all OK. See "ComReg" in the telecoms sector. Then there's the HSE in health and the Catholic Church in primary schooling. All about pretending the government who govern the country aren't responsible for a single thing that happens here. Local government is again practically about outsourcing the running of the country and shirking responsibility, rather than a tool directly under central government and used to effectively run the country. Strangely it's not the government's responsibility either to investigate the mysterious way we have the same high grocery prices at Dunnes and Tesco for most things. Neither do they have to worry about parts of the country not having clean drinking water or reliable electricity. Sure it's nothing to do with them is it?

/end rant

homah_7ft

sabrina99 wrote:

thanks murphaph. nice to see someone being helpful. i think the other poster may have had a problem because i abbreviated the word "because".
sad:rolleyes:
this week alone i have contacted the gardai, dept of transport, irish rial (numerous times) and ombudsman. they all just pass the can so to speak.
maybe it is time to start hounding local politicians:D

In fairness the very first poster to respond gave you a list of suggestions. One of those suggesions was to contact your T.D. yet you complained that the poster was of no help. I find that quite rude. You also fail to use a capital letter to begin your sentences. The correct suggestion is indeed to go the political route since this is where ultimate responsibility lies. I also think you are never going to get a situation where everyone gets a seat at rush hour.

murphaph

Zoney wrote:

As regards the comparison with a small bus being over-capacity, it's no good. Only minibuses, coaches etc. are "no standing" (and so strictly capacity of the seats available). Even normal Bus Éireann city buses have heaps of standing room - they are seldom loaded to the max load even if seemingly packed.

From what I know, train carriages are allowed to have quite a lot of standing people, even the intercity type. Commuter ones are supposed to have buckets of standing room, figuratively sardine cans on wheels.

Of course, people shouldn't be crammed on from the very far away stops - there should at the very least be capacity for those at stations closer to the destination. There probably isn't (or at least, not comfortably - as I say, it's entirely possible the most packed DART doesn't come close to the theoretical max capacity).

Ultimately, the government is to blame for the whole modus operandi of living that's evolved in Dublin area (and indeed nationwide). Despite their attempts to pretend they aren't responsible for anything, they absolutely are. It wouldn't matter if they privatised every service in the book, that shouldn't get them off the hook - they are the ones responsible for running the country properly, regardless of who the service providers are. The current situation with public transport suits them perfectly though, as people will all decide publicly run services are a joke, and insist on privatisation. Then with private companies providing a shoddy service and charging an arm and a leg, the government can hold up its hands and say "nothing we can do". If they have a regulatory authority, it's even worse, as the government can just blame them, and the regulator will be trying to pretend everything is all OK. See "ComReg" in the telecoms sector. Then there's the HSE in health and the Catholic Church in primary schooling. All about pretending the government who govern the country aren't responsible for a single thing that happens here. Local government is again practically about outsourcing the running of the country and shirking responsibility, rather than a tool directly under central government and used to effectively run the country. Strangely it's not the government's responsibility either to investigate the mysterious way we have the same high grocery prices at Dunnes and Tesco for most things. Neither do they have to worry about parts of the country not having clean drinking water or reliable electricity. Sure it's nothing to do with them is it?

/end rant

+1. They do an excellent job of shirking the responsibility of running the country. If I had my way we'd abolish local councils and make Ireland a federal republic, whilst doing away with GAA county jersey government divisions based on some elizabethan system.

murphaph

homah_7ft wrote:

In fairness the very first poster to respond gave you a list of suggestions. One of those suggesions was to contact your T.D. yet you complained that the poster was of no help. I find that quite rude. You also fail to use a capital letter to begin your sentences. The correct suggestion is indeed to go the political route since this is where ultimate responsibility lies. I also think you are never going to get a situation where everyone gets a seat at rush hour.

Funnily enough I and my travel companion sat beside each other on a Berlin S-Bahn and U-Bahn between 8.00 and 9.00 this morning. I'm not saying it's the norm in the rush but some cities have such a saturation of public transport that it is possible to get a seat in the rush!

sabrina99

homah_7ft wrote:

In fairness the very first poster to respond gave you a list of suggestions. One of those suggesions was to contact your T.D. yet you complained that the poster was of no help. I find that quite rude. You also fail to use a capital letter to begin your sentences. The correct suggestion is indeed to go the political route since this is where ultimate responsibility lies. I also think you are never going to get a situation where everyone gets a seat at rush hour.

Ok so 1 in 6 suggestions may have been helpful. I am so sorry for not starting my sentences with capitals, i did not realise that it was such an offensive thing to do and would in anyway damage homers eyeballs by reading it. I could also think it rude of you to spell "suggestions" as "suggesions" but it would be very anal of me to mention it:) .

I see your location is down as cork so i doubt you would have very much experience of commuting between sallins and dublin.
Having lived in cork for a few years i can tell you it is very different, my biggest gripe down there was moaning if the number 14 to wilton was 10 minutes late.

Pineapple stu

sabrina99 wrote:

thanks murphaph. nice to see someone being helpful. i think the other poster may have had a problem because i abbreviated the word "because".
sad:rolleyes:
this week alone i have contacted the gardai, dept of transport, irish rial (numerous times) and ombudsman. they all just pass the can so to speak.
maybe it is time to start hounding local politicians:D

Why have you contacted the guards? did someone steal your seat on the train? would you prefer irish rail to run the train past the station because its full or have staff there stoping people getting on? Yes the overcrowding can be dangerous but running an extra train wont do much because people will decide to get that one because they get an extra few minutes in bed. If you paid for a pre- bookable seat and never got one then fair enough, seek legal advice. If you work in the northside, then why didnt you make it easy for yourself and moved closer? Did you move out of dublin to sallins or from the country?Its a busy line as it is with trains from waterford, cork, galway and the suburban going through it, If irish rail could run more trains then they would.

corktina

sabrina99 wrote:

Ok so 1 in 6 suggestions may have been helpful.

i think all six (or was it five?)were pretty to the point personally...not fussed about upper/lower case myself....didn't even notice....

BTW i'm in Cork too....we get one bus a day to my home town and two to the city.....

jrar

murphaph wrote:

..........the political system and the self serving scabs that infest it. Corktina gave you good advice-contact your TD loudly and often. Contact the Minister for Transport. Contact the Dept. of the Taoiseach. He is ultimately responsible.

Expect better, demand better. Vote. Make sure your neighbours vote. We get the infrastructure we deserve.

Sabrina, I live in Naas and although I don't use the train apart from the odd weekend, both my wife and neighbours use it intermittently on weekdays at rush hour and all have the same experience as you have.

Murphaph is right - badger your local politicians for starter. I open the freesheets papers here every week to read that Aine Brady of FF has done and done that - she claims credit for everything from raising pensions in the budget to any jobs that arrive in the county - so now give her something to actually do with her new-found power as a TD. Get on to her and get other users of the service from Naas/Sallins to do likewise. I see her latest hobbyhorse is asking BE to provide better bus-stops and shelters esp. on the Clane-Celbridge Road.

You don't honestly think she thought that one up herself, do you ? No., this is her responding to constituents' concerns, and enough people have obviously contacted her about the provision of bus-stops on that road. You and some fellow travellers on the Sallins to Dublin line can do likewise.

However, I wouldn't hold my beath on geting any progress for the congestion reasons that other posters have alluded to.

godtabh

sabrina99 wrote:

a)i havent had a seat on for over 3 weeks

So what? You dont pay for a seat. I get the train every day. On the late trains I dont get a seat on the early ones I some times do. Get over it.

sabrina99 wrote:

b)cramped in between carriages with, on average 25 other people

So are the other on average 25 other people

sabrina99 wrote:

c)sometimes feel close to collapse (along with numerous other people and a pregnant woman i felt really sorry for a couple of days ago.

Dont ride the rail if you know its gona feel sick. Thats that sorted.

I'll personally put €10 towards your solicitor* for the shear entertainment value of it. Would be the best €10 i ever spent.

*may not actually happen

Guy:Incognito

sabrina99 wrote:

yep thats it. good old irish mentality. bend over and take it. lets all of us tens of thousands of commuters leave and take the plentiful jobs that are on offer outside dublin, as we all know ireland has tonnes of jobs around the country

I love when the "Irish mentality " line gets rolled out. Have you missed the fact that its the SAME in every country.

KC61

Irrespective of the various points expressed above, the real problem is that there is NO spare rolling stock available to lengthen trains or provide additional trains on this route.

Things may improve as the new Intercity railcars arrive, but this will take another year.

Unfortunately, rolling stock does not and cannot materialise overnight. It takes normally 18 months from date of order to delivery and then 3 months testing (for already tested design).

There is a tender for new rolling stock but these are unlikely to deliver until 2009-10.

And unfortunately, a ticket does not entitle you to a seat, but merely the right to travel. This is the same anywhere - take a trip on any London commuter service and you'll see exactly the same problem with crowding.

WhatsGoingOn

sabrina99 wrote:

why dont you go get a life you sad dickhead, "masked sad bastard" i think your profile should read

That attitude is really going to help you get replies!
I get the same train every day as you. I have never got a seat in the 8 months that I've been using the train, but it doesn't bother me, because it is way less stressful and 10 times faster than driving into the city during rush hour.

MaceFace

I also use the three forms of transport as yourself and come in from Sallins.
Personally, I don't agree with the naysayers about it being a third world transport service. Honestly, if you are looking for better transport services, you are going to look to London, Berlin, Tokyo, New York etc etc.
Spot the problem - were no where near that level.
Yes, we could be better, but accept that we are getting there considering our starting position was much further behind than others.

Before you start flaming - I never get a seat on any of these modes of transport.
What you should do to make your life easier is get your employer to look at the taxsavers scheme. I am paying about 90-odd quid before tax for all my transport for the week.

And, finally, yes, it is a big deal to add extra trains at rush hour. I assume signalling would have to be completely revamped and speeds lowered thus making your journey longer over all for the benifit of a seat or more frequency.
Look at the boards in Heuston and see that trains leave every five minutes between five and six except for the ones after the Arrow or those that are left to deal with the possible delays.

Instread of blindly moaning, maybe you can see it from their point of view. Yes it could be better, yes it is getting better, but no, you will never be guarantted a seat on a train.

markpb

MaceFace wrote:

Personally, I don't agree with the naysayers about it being a third world transport service. Honestly, if you are looking for better transport services, you are going to look to London, Berlin, Tokyo, New York etc etc. Spot the problem - were no where near that level.

We're also a much smaller city (population-wise) and we could just as easily have rolled out a decent transport system in the ten years if we bothered. But we didn't, we planned badly, we build roads, we sprawled and we put no money into public transport. Even today our attempts at improving it are laughable. T21 is a joke and was overdue before pen was ever put to paper.

MaceFace wrote:

Look at the boards in Heuston and see that trains leave every five minutes between five and six except for the ones after the Arrow or those that are left to deal with the possible delays.

Madrid which is about twice the size of Dublin has Metros leaving every 3 minutes all day long on all it's line. One train ever 5 or 6 minutes on one line (even if it's true which I doubt it is) isn't very impressive.

sabrina99 wrote:

i have no option to move as i bought a house in sallins cos it "close" to dublin.

Don't make me laugh. Sallins is no-where near Dublin. The estate agent might have told you it was but you should have as much faith in estate agents sales pitch as you would in a politicians election promises. When you were forced to buy your house, did you look at where it was? Did you see what transport options you have, how long they'd take or how busy they were? Or did you blindly buy a four bed house with a garden?

KC61 wrote:

Unfortunately, rolling stock does not and cannot materialise overnight. It takes normally 18 months from date of order to delivery and then 3 months testing (for already tested design).

I'm fairly sure P11 said IR could hire rolling stock and have it adapted to Irish guage in a reasonably short amount of time. Yes there's still be issues with signalling and station access and the fact that Irish Rail are a pathetic rail operator, but it would help a lot in a short amount of time.

Calina

Anyone who has lived in Paris, London, Brussels or Munich - to name the first four that trip off the top of my head - know that in rush hour, getting a seat is a nice bonus but far, far from guaranteed. In fact, on the RER in Paris, you're lucky if you get on some of the trains they are so packed.

Secondly anyone who works in North Dublin and moves to Sallins is responsible for their own predicament. I am sick of whinges about this. The truth is no one is forced to buy a house - rental exists as an option - and it is up to you to decide whether crazy commuting or renting is less of an evil. As it is, the transport system is horrifically overburdened by people who make the call on ownership with few regards to the practicalities of where. If more people had been intelligent about this, rather than buying anywhere the builders could knock up a few houses, we might have had more intelligent planning too.

So - unhelpful and all as it might seem to you - I have zero sympathy for your problems, because you made it harder on yourself. Why not buy in Drogheda for Gods sake? It was probably cheaper than Sallins again and less hassle to get to work.

Thirdly, personal abuse is against the charter of this forum and so you won't be in here for two weeks.

__________________________

Given some of the constructive comments about what could be done for public transport in general in the country, I am not going to close this thread just now. I will, however, be watching it. Cooler heads tend to be more constructive.

loyatemu

Sallins may be a cheap place to buy but so are Drogheda, Dundalk, Bettystown etc. and they're all much more accessible to North Dublin (you still won't get a seat though).

godtabh

I bought in Leixlip. At the time I was working in the south side and knew the commute would be tough but was at a nice nub with both the trains and busses out side my door.

I've since found the commute a bite much and changed job (not just for that reason) and now work in town.

I change the time and or mode of trasnport depending on what I think is the easiest way to get to work.

I didnt just buy a place "cause its close to Dublin". I bought after thinking a could deal about moving from the city and how that would affect one of my big concerns of traveling to/from work.

Calina wrote:

Thirdly, personal abuse is against the charter of this forum - see post 21 for elucidation - and so you won't be in here for two weeks.

Any chance you could change the comments?

Edit :Thanks

murphaph

To those who are berating that woman for buying in Sallins while working in North Dublin-Phoenix Park Tunnel. Nuff said there.

She may lose her job, or change jobs-should folks have to move house every time they have a change in employment? Think about what you're saying. We currently have a situation whereby you must buy a house/flat or you will shell out a lot more in your lifetime in rent. Would you like to be renting a flat at 1500 quid a month on an old age pension?

The probem goes back to planning and land use but the problem exists as it stands. There ARE solutions. There's no point telling her that this technical problem prevents that service-SHE DOESN'T CARE and why should she? These infrastructural projects should have been green-lighted earlier. Many were ready to go but were delayed by various politicians. It always goes back to politicians!

godtabh

murphaph wrote:

She may lose her job, or change jobs-should folks have to move house every time they have a change in employment? Think about what you're saying. We currently have a situation whereby you must buy a house/flat or you will shell out a lot more in your lifetime in rent. Would you like to be renting a flat at 1500 quid a month on an old age pension?

The probem goes back to planning and land use but the problem exists as it stands. There ARE solutions. There's no point telling her that this technical problem prevents that service-SHE DOESN'T CARE and why should she? These infrastructural projects should have been green-lighted earlier. Many were ready to go but were delayed by various politicians. It always goes back to politicians!

Surly where you work has a realtion as to where you live? The vast majority of people live with a 20 mile radius of were they work (I dont have an extact figure but it came up in a recent town planning thing I read).

If you decide to live away from your job thats a decsion you have to make and then deal with.

I am sure there are other jobs that the OP could do that wouldnt involve a commute from Sallins to north county dublin.

Calina

I have to say that while people are entitled to their opinion on certain things - the point is the Phoenix Park tunnel - which I've been through a couple of times when trains have been routed into Connolly rather than Heuston - is not a cure all to everyone's problems.

The issue relates to choosing to live outside Dublin. You could say in her particular case, the issue is not public transport, but the property market. Ultimately, I don't see why people should have to move every time they change job - by the same token, while I think she may have valid complaints about overcrowding and punctuality - as all rail users do - I do feel that she was not compelled to move to Sallins in the first place. There is - at the end of the day, still a certain contributory factor there.

There are certain disadvantages to working and living in Dublin. To some extent, if you are pragmatic, you will find a way of working around them. I live ten minutes from work as it happens, and I'm fortunate in some ways, but I also recognise how much I contributed to that fortune.

The issue I would have is there is now no point in complaining about what was not done in the past - it is not constructive, although it is a feature of living in this country - we would be better placed to move forward. That being said, I thought that the original post was excessive, and requests for class action against IR are fairly unconstructive in my view. I still - however - say that most people with any common sense - working in north Dublin would not choose to live somewhere like Sallins. The truth is people in this country have been making decisions based on where can I afford to buy rather than where can I afford to live. There are key differences. Whether the public transport network was adequate or not does not change this.

There are issues with public transport in Dublin - I will give you that. The OP's modus postus up top will not improve things. Flailing out achieves nothing.

Moving forward, I am not convinced that the Phoenix Park tunnel will fix everything or even all that much. I see it as a stop gap measure at best. The issue is that transport planning in Dublin - in particular - is confrontational, based on rail versus tram versus car versus bus versus publicly owned versus privately operated and practical needs are systematically at the bottom of the pile when it comes to consideration. Ultimately there needs to be some recognition that all these options should be working in tandem rather than competing against one another. Making it territorial only puts the backs of each party up and is hugely counterproductive.

An excessive number of people in the Dublin area are compelled to commute in comparison to other cities. While public transport needs to be ramped up, I think it should be part of a joined up thinking approach that would perhaps either move jobs out of Dublin - which is never going to happen unless they disappear - or moving people back into the city centre in the medium to long term. In other words, public transport cannot be looked at in isolation from residential planning.

Calina

kearnsr wrote:

Surly where you work has a realtion as to where you live? The vast majority of people live with a 20 mile radius of were they work (I dont have an extact figure but it came up in a recent town planning thing I read).

In some respects, distance is irrelevant, particularly in the Dublin area given the vagaries of the bus routing system which compells you - in most cases - to travel via town if you're not on direct bus routes. It is the ease of getting there. Ultimately, I know people who commute in from Naas to north County Dublin. The appropriate choice might - roadworks on J8 of the m50 and along the M50 not withstanding - be to drive rather than go via public transport depending on the where in north County Dublin.

That's not without its disadvantages though and is a model we should be moving from.

popebenny16

Thirdly, personal abuse is against the charter of this forum and so you won't be in here for two weeks.

who got banned?

markpb

popebenny16 wrote:

who got banned?

I'm guessing it was something to do with the quote in this post?

popebenny16

markpb wrote:

I'm guessing it was something to do with the quote in this post?

Ah, I see. Some newbie falls into the old C&T trap whereby smart-arses nit pick your spelling, grammer and then post smart-arse replies untill the o/p, who is stressed out enough as it is, explodes and gets banned. But sure that's C&T for you, full of keyboard warriors who would never have the balls to say the things they say to you here to your face.

godtabh

popebenny16 wrote:

Ah, I see. Some newbie falls into the old C&T trap whereby smart-arses nit pick your spelling, grammer and then post smart-arse replies untill the o/p, who is stressed out enough as it is, explodes and gets banned. But sure that's C&T for you, full of keyboard warriors who would never have the balls to say the things they say to you here to your face.

Where is all that coming from?

Calina wrote:

That's not without its disadvantages though and is a model we should be moving from.

In the good old days before we thought out solutions this was the norm i.e build roads to get people from home to jobs.

Now its have them central located i.e massive mixed use developments.

Peoblem is we cant get any of it to work

popebenny16

kearnsr wrote:

Where is all that coming from?

Your post last night, it was rude and nasty and caused her to explode. Dont like that? Get a life.

murphaph

Calina wrote:

I have to say that while people are entitled to their opinion on certain things - the point is the Phoenix Park tunnel - which I've been through a couple of times when trains have been routed into Connolly rather than Heuston - is not a cure all to everyone's problems.

The issue relates to choosing to live outside Dublin. You could say in her particular case, the issue is not public transport, but the property market. Ultimately, I don't see why people should have to move every time they change job - by the same token, while I think she may have valid complaints about overcrowding and punctuality - as all rail users do - I do feel that she was not compelled to move to Sallins in the first place. There is - at the end of the day, still a certain contributory factor there.

There are certain disadvantages to working and living in Dublin. To some extent, if you are pragmatic, you will find a way of working around them. I live ten minutes from work as it happens, and I'm fortunate in some ways, but I also recognise how much I contributed to that fortune.

The issue I would have is there is now no point in complaining about what was not done in the past - it is not constructive, although it is a feature of living in this country - we would be better placed to move forward. That being said, I thought that the original post was excessive, and requests for class action against IR are fairly unconstructive in my view. I still - however - say that most people with any common sense - working in north Dublin would not choose to live somewhere like Sallins. The truth is people in this country have been making decisions based on where can I afford to buy rather than where can I afford to live. There are key differences. Whether the public transport network was adequate or not does not change this.

There are issues with public transport in Dublin - I will give you that. The OP's modus postus up top will not improve things. Flailing out achieves nothing.

Moving forward, I am not convinced that the Phoenix Park tunnel will fix everything or even all that much. I see it as a stop gap measure at best. The issue is that transport planning in Dublin - in particular - is confrontational, based on rail versus tram versus car versus bus versus publicly owned versus privately operated and practical needs are systematically at the bottom of the pile when it comes to consideration. Ultimately there needs to be some recognition that all these options should be working in tandem rather than competing against one another. Making it territorial only puts the backs of each party up and is hugely counterproductive.

An excessive number of people in the Dublin area are compelled to commute in comparison to other cities. While public transport needs to be ramped up, I think it should be part of a joined up thinking approach that would perhaps either move jobs out of Dublin - which is never going to happen unless they disappear - or moving people back into the city centre in the medium to long term. In other words, public transport cannot be looked at in isolation from residential planning.

Stop gap measure or not, it would allow commuters from the Kildare line to reach a much more central location than the relatively remote Heuston. Any other country would have built an interchange station at East Wall Junction-we allowed a developer to build apartments there. It's all political as I said before.

Stop gap measures are also generally implemented quickly with a view to replacement with a more permanent fix. The PPT remains out of use to passenger services and totally untried as a means of improving people's lives.

popebenny16

murphaph wrote:

Stop gap measure or not, it would allow commuters from the Kildare line to reach a much more central location than the relatively remote Heuston. Any other country would have built an interchange station at East Wall Junction-we allowed a developer to build apartments there. It's all political as I said before.

Stop gap measures are also generally implemented quickly with a view to replacement with a more permanent fix. The PPT remains out of use to passenger services and totally untried as a means of improving people's lives.

Yes, of course, its all the commuters fault for living there, not the fault of anyone else for failing to provide a service to them. CIE long ago wanted to provide passenger services through the PPT. They even planned stations at Blackhorse and Cabra. We have also had the farce that is the DART extenstion - it was supposed to go to Salins, not anymore. Funny, but if IE had been let by the DoT to go ahead with their original plans our O/P could see some light at the end of the tunnell (sorry).

As it is, the service from Portlaoise inwards is a disgrace. We all know it. CIE trotted out several lies for not using the PPT - it was a works tunnel, or there are no slots in Connolly. Well, after this week we can nail that last lie once and for all. IE managment told the local group that they could have a service through the tunnel, then did nothing on it. They said that to do it would cause confusion. Sure would. I'd be awfully confused too if I knew that despite unprecidented levels of investment, literally billions of euro, my train still leaves me in the middle of bloody nowhere when it can take me right into the city centre but for a little bit of work up at Glasneven and Liffey Junctions. Even without that work, it can be done.

If the guys running the sevice got off their backsides and tackled the issue head on, instead of burying their heads in the sand and creating little diversions (hello Broadstone) to buy themselves more room for creating excuses we could get these things sorted.

Calina

popebenny16 wrote:

Your post last night, it was rude and nasty and caused her to explode. Dont like that? Get a life.

And you, if you didn't like that post, could have reported it. As it happens nobody did. Despite that, I've been cleaning out reported posts from my inbox most of the morning courtesy of the OP.

I think your generalisation about C&T and its users is somewhat unfair. The vast majority of people are generally critical of public transport as it is offered in this country - it's not an army of apologists for the System which rises up in fury should anyone dare to criticise the System. I personally like well thought out reasoned posts. My opinion - and I offer this guardedly - is that the OP's opening salvo amounted to a rant and a whinge. It is not a constructive way of getting what you want.

Most people who are regulars here would probably say that in general, I have a very light hand in here, in fact, apart from a couple of thread locks last week they probably didn't even know I was still mod.

The above is taking you close to a C&T ban - take it as a warning to cool down and discuss the matter of public transport in commuter counties rather than heckling other posters.

In other words, I am issuing a general suggestion to all parties on this thread to keep remotely on topic or I will take some sort of action, be it bans or thread locks. I don't like doing this, but occasionally needs must and all that.

______________________________________

Back on topic:

the issue I have with stopgap measures in this country is that traditionally, they become the full measures as in "ah sure, we did that and its working fine now", sort of thing.

I don't spend too much time around the rail system in the city centre any more seeing as I too work in north County Dublin, however, I've always understood that one of the key issues with routing trains to Connolly is a lack of platform capacity there. Is this still the case? Genuine question.

Zoney

Seriously, are people trying to make out that folks who have long commutes have only themselves to blame? I would entirely agree that it's not the best predicament to get oneself into, but I hardly think it is remotely fair to suggest people aren't thinking straight when they do.

It's not even just down to home-owning. Finding rented accommodation is frequently disasterous in terms of cost or the condition of the property. It isn't just home-owners who have nasty commutes. Changing from one place to another is a hideous undertaking costing quite a bit of money, even worse if you're a home-owner trying to get similar property elsewhere in the country.

Yet we're supposed to go where the jobs are rather than whinge about under-development of the regions? It's pretty awkward to get a job of any sort of remotely relevant nature near where one already lives, even if in Dublin already. Conversely if you get the job first, and look to live somewhere handy it's usually similarly well-nigh impossible to get suitable accommodation. Sure some people are fortunate. They should be gracious enough to allow those who aren't to complain.

No wonder the government can get away with dismissing opponents as "whingers" when the members of the public take the attitude that people are getting what they deserve. I've encountered people who take a personal dislike to members of the opposition, because they point out what's wrong all the time. For crying out loud, that's their job!!! (In fact one of the reasons they aren't more effective is their fear of being seen as too "negative" by the public)

Anyone who's ended up doing a hideous commute has every right to complain and indeed be listened to. It's not some kind of mental deficiency that causes people to be in such a situation.

popebenny16

Calina wrote:

.

The above is taking you close to a C&T ban - take it as a warning to cool down and discuss the matter of public transport in commuter counties rather than heckling other posters.


the issue I have with stopgap measures in this country is that traditionally, they become the full measures as in "ah sure, we did that and its working fine now", sort of thing.

I don't spend too much time around the rail system in the city centre any more seeing as I too work in north County Dublin, however, I've always understood that one of the key issues with routing trains to Connolly is a lack of platform capacity there. Is this still the case? Genuine question.

The above you quoted is a comment, on a post, not a poster, that was posted last night on this thread. I'm entitled to comment on it, and the effect it had on the O/P. You can go right ahead with the ban for me if you like, but even a cursory glance at the posts from last night reveal that they contained words and phrases which were flaming. As I said, this is a common practice from some posters on this forum which is to rile up other posters who get banned whilst the flamers walk away. I'm not the only poster who has more or less given up on posting here because of it. Now that I have poited out this problem perhaps you might want to look into it, but if you dont, that's up to you.

As regarding your point about capacity in Connolly, there is capacity. We pointed this out to IE years ago, they denied it. They denied there was capacity when they met the local groups, then accepted there was, then said that having trains to Pearse (for example) at weekends would confuse people. There is capacity, any examination of the morning timetable will tell you that.

As for the o/p... well, she comes home, shattered perhaps, tired, sure she has a rant. Is that against the rules of this forum? She is a paying customer. She was looking for advice. Advise about what, if anythig she can do about the train situation. Posts such as "move house" "work somewhere else" are patronising, childish and flaming. But if that's your standards, fine.

godtabh

Calina wrote:

the issue I have with stopgap measures in this country is that traditionally, they become the full measures as in "ah sure, we did that and its working fine now", sort of thing.

I don't spend too much time around the rail system in the city centre any more seeing as I too work in north County Dublin, however, I've always understood that one of the key issues with routing trains to Connolly is a lack of platform capacity there. Is this still the case? Genuine question.

As you said temporary measures here tend to lead to permanent solutions. Any time I talked to any one about the Docklands station seemed to say that it was the future but on reading its PP yesterday its for 10 years only the reason being was to ease capacity problems in Connolly.

markpb

Calina wrote:

the issue I have with stopgap measures in this country is that traditionally, they become the full measures as in "ah sure, we did that and its working fine now", sort of thing.

I think that's a very realistic fear. At it's extreme I could point to the Dart. I agree it was amazing for it's time (and limited funding) but the very stop-gap/kludge nature of building a metro system on shared IC lines, means it's pretty poor these days. My girlfriend, who started commuting from Coolock to Ballsbridge last week, wants to know why two buses are faster than a feeder and the Dart? It'd a valid question....

I don't spend too much time around the rail system in the city centre any more seeing as I too work in north County Dublin, however, I've always understood that one of the key issues with routing trains to Connolly is a lack of platform capacity there. Is this still the case? Genuine question.

My understanding is that IR claim Connolly is full and can't take any more trains. P11 (RUI) have always claimed that if the timetable was re-organised, new slots could be found. This week when there was a problem with the Docklands station, IR "found" slots in Connolly to let Maynooth trains terminate there, suggesting perhaps that P11 have been right all along.

godtabh

markpb wrote:

My understanding is that IR claim Connolly is full and can't take any more trains. P11 (RUI) have always claimed that if the timetable was re-organised, new slots could be found. This week when there was a problem with the Docklands station, IR "found" slots in Connolly to let Maynooth trains terminate there, suggesting perhaps that P11 have been right all along.

Some maynooth trains terminate there normally. No Maynooth train goes to the Docklands station. It starts at Clonsilla (AFAIK)

popebenny16

kearnsr wrote:

Some maynooth trains terminate there normally. No Maynooth train goes to the Docklands station. It starts at Clonsilla (AFAIK)

Clonsilla - Docklands trains were divered into Connolly because Docklands was closed. It was closed because Deco couldnt be bothered to turn up for work and Paddy wasnt arsed to go from Connolly to open up. They found the slots because they are there, even though they have denied they are there.

mrbatman

It is only recently i have signed up to boards.ie and as a commmuter myself i would keep an eye out for the topics in here. needless to say i won't bother asking any questions now as quite frankly it looks like a bunch of little hitlers who want to feel good about themselves.
Seriously! what help are comments like "move house" or "no one forced you to buy a house"?
it is comlete ignorance to give answer's like that. what is a person supposed to do?, pay 400k for a shoebox in Dublin or 100k less for a house down the train tracks?
Perahps if a the smart posters took a closer look at the op's post they night notice that she typed "closer" in inverted comma's. (methinks it was a joke, perhaps about it's proximity to dublin and the journey time lenght).

I have to say good on you popebenny and murphaph, at least some people still have a bit of decency

godtabh

popebenny16 wrote:

Clonsilla - Docklands trains were divered into Connolly because Docklands was closed. It was closed because Deco couldnt be bothered to turn up for work and Paddy wasnt arsed to go from Connolly to open up. They found the slots because they are there, even though they have denied they are there.

That wasn't the point I was making.

As I said in the previous thread a train could have been delayed to let the train drop these passengers to get out. Its not difficult to do this. The system is relatively flexible.

And how do you know Deco and Paddy weren't bothered to turn up?

popebenny16

markpb wrote:

I At it's extreme I could point to the Dart. I agree it was amazing for it's time (and limited funding)

Sorry Mark, but it wasn't at all amazing. Dont forget that DART 2 was shelved. Every political party wanted it stopped altogether, the managment in CIE were the heros at the time, they got it despite opposition from every quater. The sacrifice was DART to Tallaght.

The other sacrifice was that the DARTS were made overseas and not in Inchicore and as a consequence the Unions in the Core got a nasty surprise in the shape of redundancies when the Mark3's were finished. They could have held out under different conditions till the early 90's and we could have seen all of our rolling stock made in Dublin. We didnt, and it was a shame, because the expertise in there was staggering - a legacy that lives on. When CAF went to make the 29000's a team from CIE went over and oversaw the entire operation. That didnt happen with the Mark 4's. You can see the results.

godtabh

mrbatman wrote:

it is comlete ignorance to give answer's like that. what is a person supposed to do?, pay 400k for a shoebox in Dublin or 100k less for a house down the train tracks?

Its a big decision to pay 400k or 100k less for a home.

But if you buy the cheaper home you have to deal with the consequences. A 300k home does not entitle you to a better way of life. It means you get more for your money but a the price of being further away from work. That's the trade off you have to make and deal with. You knew from the off that this is what you would have to deal with if you bought the house.

So I dont believe answers like that are ignorant

murphaph

kearnsr wrote:

Some maynooth trains terminate there normally. No Maynooth train goes to the Docklands station. It starts at Clonsilla (AFAIK)

Correct. But the point Markpb made still stands. They 'found' slots in the morning rush for trains from Clonsilla out of thin air. Docklands was built to allow the housing developments in Hansfield to proceed, no other reason. Connoly could have been modified cheaper (not necessarily easier mind) to accept trains up the Newcommen curve into P7-exactly what happened this week. IE are a lying pack of sh!tes as are their political masters. Nobody is willing to stick their well paid heads over the parapet.