Britian - the Worst Drug Dealer in history

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote:

I thought you were better than that. That just portrays you as a bigot an your posts tend to show otherwise.

Still sticking up for the genecidal, major drug trafficing country of the 19th century i see. If these threads have any use it's highlighting the evils of colonial Britain. It seems its popular to brush it under the carpet these days, lest someone be called a bigot or a crank. Or in the case of your countries education system to twist it to the point of telling barefaced lies, or just airbrushing anything from history which portrays the Empire negatively.

By all means lets move on and Anglo-Irish relations are very good these days which i'm happy about. But for gods sake Fred quit defending the undefendable! These replies like: "but the ira did this" don't wash. It's like comparing a petty thief to a serial killer. The Empire has the blood of millions on its hands, and no amount of revisionism in the world will change that!

Snickers Man

McArmalite wrote:

. I would like to know where in the writings of Irish nationalism, Connolly, Wolfe Tone, etc is there an ambition indicated to drop to the terrorist practices and ambitions of britain against other nations ??

Didn't Wolfe Tone once propose to Pitt that he lead a mission to colonise the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii) for Britain?

Don't think old Theo would have gone in for a grass skirt and a lei, do you? I reckon the Sandwich Islanders would have been forced to conform or face the consequences.

Good old Theo.

Shutuplaura

Mick86 wrote:

Firstly I didn't attack Ghandi, I merely pointed out that someone coming from an institutionally bigotted society, as Ghandi did, has a bit of cheek casting stones at others .

Are you kidding? You are attacking him in the same sentence you started with "firstly I didn't attack Ghandi."

Your quote: "I thought (and still think) that Ghandi's statement, was on the face of it, bollocks" also sounds very much like an attack to me.

Mick86 wrote:

The workings of the caste system and whether or not the English made it worse or not have no bearing on the argument either. All that matters is the system existed and probably still does in places.

Your statement here shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the caste system and its development. It is also in line with the OP's original assertaion about racism in the British Empire so I'm pretty sure it does have a bearing on the argument whether you would like it to or not.

Mick86 wrote:

That fact is actually irrelevant, Ghandi made a statement that all English speaking (not just English) people are racist. In itself that statement is inherently racist. It doesn't stand up when you consider such English speaking non-racists as William Wilberforce, Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King. Not to mention the plethora of non-Anglophone racists. The Spanish and Portuguese for example. The Belgians in the Congo, the Germans anywhere. Ghandi may have been a great man but that didn't make him infallible.

That I would agree with partly anyway. Imperialism tends to cause racism whether the imperial overlords are Asian, African, American or European. Given Ghandi's experience under British rule in South Africa and India I'd forgive him a bit of hyperbole.

Did he actually say though that all English people are racist? I don't think it was as simple as that but I'm open to correction.

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote:

Still sticking up for the genecidal, major drug trafficing country of the 19th century i see. If these threads have any use it's highlighting the evils of colonial Britain. It seems its popular to brush it under the carpet these days, lest someone be called a bigot or a crank. Or in the case of your countries education system to twist it to the point of telling barefaced lies, or just airbrushing anything from history which portrays the Empire negatively.

By all means lets move on and Anglo-Irish relations are very good these days which i'm happy about. But for gods sake Fred quit defending the undefendable! These replies like: "but the ira did this" don't wash. It's like comparing a petty thief to a serial killer. The Empire has the blood of millions on its hands, and no amount of revisionism in the world will change that!

Britains past is the past, what pisses me off is when someone considers the acts of 150 years ago to represent the Britain of today. Just because some small minded person insists on living in the past it doesm't mean Britain is.

When you talk of the past you have to take everything in context, Britai and China had a war over trade, the biggest part of which was opium, what McArmalite seems to forget is that Ireland undoubtedly played a part in this as well as many other nations.

I'm happy to get into a conversations about what the imperial powers did 2,3 or 4 hundred years ago, but all the imperial powers were doing it, not just Britain. If I thought for one minute the OP was trying to highlight what a bad place the world was in the 19th century then fine, lets talk about it, but his main reason for these posts are purely to satisfy his hatred for Ireland's neighbour.

These threads of McArmalit's aren't anything to do with history, they are jsut spitful attacks on Britain by someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder.

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote:

Britains past is the past, what pisses me off is when someone considers the acts of 150 years ago to represent the Britain of today. Just because some small minded person insists on living in the past it doesm't mean Britain is.

When you talk of the past you have to take everything in context, Britai and China had a war over trade, the biggest part of which was opium, what McArmalite seems to forget is that Ireland undoubtedly played a part in this as well as many other nations.

I'm happy to get into a conversations about what the imperial powers did 2,3 or 4 hundred years ago, but all the imperial powers were doing it, not just Britain. If I thought for one minute the OP was trying to highlight what a bad place the world was in the 19th century then fine, lets talk about it, but his main reason for these posts are purely to satisfy his hatred for Ireland's neighbour.

These threads of McArmalit's aren't anything to do with history, they are jsut spitful attacks on Britain by someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder.

If he does, you're equally as guilty by ignoring Britains past, and trying to create a smokescreen 'but look what that crowd was doing' etc etc. Britain has never been held to task for its many crimes against humanity, which by the way far outweigh what any other nation in the world did through the 19th century. You need to come to terms with it.

A lot of us are guilty of glorifying our historical leaders who lead the fight for freedom as well, I hasten to add. I'm looking forward to seeing tonights Hidden History programme which delves into the myths surrounding Michael Collins, and more specifically The Intelligence War in Dublin at the time. (RTE 1 - 10.15 if anyones interested)

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote:

If he does, you're equally as guilty by ignoring Britains past, and trying to create a smokescreen 'but look what that crowd was doing' etc etc. Britain has never been held to task for its many crimes against humanity, which by the way far outweigh what any other nation in the world did through the 19th century. You need to come to terms with it.

A lot of us are guilty of glorifying our historical leaders who lead the fight for freedom as well, I hasten to add. I'm looking forward to seeing tonights Hidden History programme which delves into the myths surrounding Michael Collins, and more specifically The Intelligence War in Dublin at the time. (RTE 1 - 10.15 if anyones interested)

that's more like it

I will try and watch that, Michael Collins is one of the few Irish leaders I would consider "Great". Throughout Irish history, in my interpretation of it, there have been numerous times where the Irish have been their own worst enemy, the killing of Michael Collins I consider one such examplem but that's a different topic.

SpitfireIV

Erin Go Brath wrote:

If he does, you're equally as guilty by ignoring Britains past, and trying to create a smokescreen 'but look what that crowd was doing' etc etc. Britain has never been held to task for its many crimes against humanity, which by the way far outweigh what any other nation in the world did through the 19th century. You need to come to terms with it.

Yes Fred, hang your head in shame! This is starting to sound like that 'Fast Show' gag where the German guy feels he has to apologise to the every British person he meets for his countries action during the war :rolleyes:

With all due respect I think Fred is aware of what has gone on in Britains past, we all are, no one is denying that Britain took part in atrocities, but can you, or anyone else in the same mindset explain exactly what the use, or purpose is in dragging up the past and using it for bitterness and finger pointing. I'm afraid the people who were responsible for these crimes are long since dead, so who are we pointing the finger of blame at? The British public in general? Blame them for the wrongs of there predecossors?

Another question, seriously I'd like to know, but what would you like to see done about it? Some form of apology or such? I wasnt aware of that Collins programme, I'll have to watch it, cheers.

edit: I wasnt trying to be smart or funny etc in that post, but I'm just struggling to understand your point of view (as you are mine probably )

Mick86

Shutuplaura wrote:

Are you kidding? You are attacking him in the same sentence you started with "firstly I didn't attack Ghandi."

Your quote: "I thought (and still think) that Ghandi's statement, was on the face of it, bollocks" also sounds very much like an attack to me. .

That's attacking the statement not the man. If I said "Ghandi was a bollocks" that's attacking the man.

Shutuplaura wrote:

Your statement here shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the caste system and its development.

I admit to having a very basic understanding of the system. I also have absolutely no interest in an in depth study of it. It isn't necessary for the purpose of this debate. Your contention that the British made the system worse is by the way and does not take away from the fact that the belief in such a system predates British rule.

Shutuplaura wrote:

Given Ghandi's experience under British rule in South Africa and India I'd forgive him a bit of hyperbole.

Engaging in racist rhetoric is dangerous and unpardonable in people of influence.

Shutuplaura wrote:

Did he actually say though that all English people are racist? I don't think it was as simple as that but I'm open to correction.

If you can believe McArmalite's quote it was

"Wherever the English language is spoken, racism is always at it's worst"

Erin Go Brath

CroppyBoy1798 wrote:

Yes Fred, hang your head in shame! This is starting to sound like that 'Fast Show' gag where the German guy feels he has to apologise to the every British person he meets for his countries action during the war :rolleyes:

With all due respect I think Fred is aware of what has gone on in Britains past, we all are, no one is denying that Britain took part in atrocities, but can you, or anyone else in the same mindset explain exactly what the use, or purpose is in dragging up the past and using it for bitterness and finger pointing. I'm afraid the people who were responsible for these crimes are long since dead, so who are we pointing the finger of blame at? The British public in general? Blame them for the wrongs of there predecossors?

Another question, seriously I'd like to know, but what would you like to see done about it? Some form of apology or such? I wasnt aware of that Collins programme, I'll have to watch it, cheers.

edit: I wasnt trying to be smart or funny etc in that post, but I'm just struggling to understand your point of view (as you are mine probably )

Croppyboy I can't reconcile ur nick with your political attitude at all, quite the opposite its bizarre really.

Fred is well aware whats gone in British history, im sure. Are you though? Or is this bury your head in the sand deliberate? What happened in history has happened we can't dilute it for fear of offending someones sensibilities.

As for dragging up the past. Its the history forum, what else are we supposed to do?

McArmalite

CHICO FUENTES wrote:

I've been reading these threads from afar for a while now and feel the urge to ask a pertinant question. McArmalite have you ever lived outside of Ireland? Being a Corkman brought up on stories of old and having been indoctrinated in anti English teachings at School, just like yourself, I find some of your posts a bit passe.......Whenever I come home all I see is a nation of materialistic morons who would gladly trade another county for an increase in their bank balance. Ireland aint what it used to be. England is a nation with problems but i'd take it over today's Ireland anyday.

Rule Britannia !!!! - " England is a nation with problems but i'd take it over today's Ireland anyday. "

" McArmalite have you ever lived outside of Ireland? " Yes, in Holland and Germany for a few months each. Try to visit at least one forrign country a year. Thinking of visiting the People's Republic of Cork before Xmas

" Whenever I come home all I see is a nation of materialistic morons " Well, I can agree entirely with you there, our parents generation had much better values.

But as for " Being a Corkman brought up on stories of old and having been indoctrinated in anti English teachings at School," Well, that's quite the opposite than my experience of school and the media during youth. From been heros to the outright black propaganda been pushed down our throats at school/TV etc from the John A Murphy's, Eoghan Harass ( Harris), Conor Booze O'Brien, Ruth Dudley West Brit ( Edwards) etc that were pushed to the forefront of 'experts' on Irish history. Things like - James Connolly an evil Stalinist, Wolfetone a egomaniac who hijacked the revoulotionary spirit of the time, 1798 in Wexford a secterian slaughter, 1916 a stab in poor old britain's back that destroyed the goodwill of britain and any real chance of an independent Ireland - what a load of sh1te written by sh1te.

As Erin Go Brath says - " It seems its popular to brush it under the carpet these days, lest someone be called a bigot or a crank. "

I'm not trying to provoke an argument with you CHICO FUENTES, the vast majority of British people are fine, Jayus, I've had girlfriends from England, I'm not an anti English bigot. The vast majority of ordinary people in Britain aren't interested in queen and country and past glorious empire etc But Fred Fratton... he comes across as the type in England who stand on a terrace at a soccer match chanting " I'd rather be a packie than a scouse...they're ain't no black in the union jack let's send them back " etc ( I sometimes wonder did he get a crack across the head from a Guard at Lansdowne Road when the british white thrash were over chanting " No surrenda to the IRA " a few years back.Here's hoping ).

I orginally joined boards.ie just to read the Martial Arts boards (I'm a Martial Arts nut), but when I casually wandered onto the history board and seen the postings form that English unionist bigot, fine I thought, I'll make a few dents in his brit ego - and best of all, I'm getting there

No Fred, " they are jsut spitful attacks on Britain by someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " Just bring a few home truths to you reagarding the wonderful historical heritage your great country has

Or in the words of Erin Go Brath " As for dragging up the past. Its the history forum, what else are we supposed to do? "

CHICO FUENTES

McArmalite wrote:

Rule Britannia !!!! - " England is a nation with problems but i'd take it over today's Ireland anyday. "

" McArmalite have you ever lived outside of Ireland? " Yes, in Holland and Germany for a few months each. Try to visit at least one forrign country a year. Thinking of visiting the People's Republic of Cork before Xmas

" Whenever I come home all I see is a nation of materialistic morons " Well, I can agree entirely with you there, our parents generation had much better values.

But as for " Being a Corkman brought up on stories of old and having been indoctrinated in anti English teachings at School," Well, that's quite the opposite than my experience of school and the media during youth. From been heros to the outright black propaganda been pushed down our throats at school/TV etc from the John A Murphy's, Eoghan Harass ( Harris), Conor Booze O'Brien, Ruth Dudley West Brit ( Edwards) etc that were pushed to the forefront of 'experts' on Irish history. Things like - James Connolly an evil Stalinist, Wolfetone a egomaniac who hijacked the revoulotionary spirit of the time, 1798 in Wexford a secterian slaughter, 1916 a stab in poor old britain's back that destroyed the goodwill of britain and any real chance of an independent Ireland - what a load of sh1te written by sh1te.

As Erin Go Brath says - " It seems its popular to brush it under the carpet these days, lest someone be called a bigot or a crank. "

I'm not trying to provoke an argument with you CHICO FUENTES, the vast majority of British people are fine, Jayus, I've had girlfriends from England, I'm not an anti English bigot. The vast majority of ordinary people in Britain aren't interested in queen and country and past glorious empire etc But Fred Fratton... he comes across as the type in England who stand on a terrace at a soccer match chanting " I'd rather be a packie than a scouse...they're ain't no black in the union jack let's send them back " etc ( I sometimes wonder did he get a crack across the head from a Guard at Lansdowne Road when the british white thrash were over chanting " No surrenda to the IRA " a few years back.Here's hoping ).

I orginally joined boards.ie just to read the Martial Arts boards (I'm a Martial Arts nut), but when I casually wandered onto the history board and seen the postings form that English unionist bigot, fine I thought, I'll make a few dents in his brit ego - and best of all, I'm getting there

No Fred, " they are jsut spitful attacks on Britain by someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " Just bring a few home truths to you reagarding the wonderful historical heritage your great country has

Or in the words of Erin Go Brath " As for dragging up the past. Its the history forum, what else are we supposed to do? "

Fair play, thats me told!;)

ejmaztec

Being a "Plastic Paddy" educated in England, I can say with certainty that I was never taught about any "Anglo-Chinese War". They were always referred to as "Opium Wars". All of my history teachers were of the opinion that the British Empire produced quite a few "Bad Bas*ards", and in no way made any excuses for the actions of any of them. There was no cover-up or re-writing of history. Britain 100 years ago=chalk. Britain now=cheese.

PHB

Quote:

No Fred, " they are jsut spitful attacks on Britain by someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " Just bring a few home truths to you reagarding the wonderful historical heritage your great country has

If that was the case, it'd be fine. But unfortunately you can't seem to do that without continuously insulting and harassing him. Due to that, one week ban as you've been warned before.

brianthebard

McArmalite wrote:

Where's the evidence pal, EVIDENCE. Accusation and black propaganda is one thing, actual proof is another. Still I cannot resist putting another nail in the coffin of the 'great' and 'glorious' history of britian - the worst drug pusher in history

Everything written about Slab Murphy?

brianthebard

Mick86 wrote:

Firstly I didn't attack Ghandi, I merely pointed out that someone coming from an institutionally bigotted society, as Ghandi did, has a bit of cheek casting stones at others . Secondly I pointed out that Ghandi actually deplored the caste system. That fact is actually irrelevant, Ghandi made a statement that all English speaking (not just English) people are racist. In itself that statement is inherently racist. It doesn't stand up when you consider such English speaking non-racists as William Wilberforce, Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King. Not to mention the plethora of non-Anglophone racists. The Spanish and Portuguese for example. The Belgians in the Congo, the Germans anywhere. Ghandi may have been a great man but that didn't make him infallible.

Its like you took one soundbite and constructed a whole narrative about a person that bears no resemblence to Ghandi. And you didn't even interpret the statement correctly. He wasn't saying that English speaking people are racist, cause that would be pretty dumb. He was suggesting that as the English spread their culture they also spread racism. That racism is connected to the language.

DublinDes

PHB wrote:

If that was the case, it'd be fine. But unfortunately you can't seem to do that without continuously insulting and harassing him. Due to that, one week ban as you've been warned before.

That Fred Fratton posted " Why not concentrate on the mess your own country is in " ( An insult to all of us, well those who consider themselves Irish )

and " someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " to the McArmalite fella.

and " That just portrays you as a bigot an your posts tend to show otherwise. " to Erin Go Brath.

And then, only the McArmalite fella is banned ?

Fratton Fred

DublinDes wrote:

That Fred Fratton posted " Why not concentrate on the mess your own country is in " ( An insult to all of us, well those who consider themselves Irish )

and " someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " to the McArmalite fella.

and " That just portrays you as a bigot an your posts tend to show otherwise. " to Erin Go Brath.

And then, only the McArmalite fella is banned ?

the Mac is back :rolleyes:

Mick86

brianthebard wrote:

Its like you took one soundbite and constructed a whole narrative about a person that bears no resemblence to Ghandi. And you didn't even interpret the statement correctly. He wasn't saying that English speaking people are racist, cause that would be pretty dumb. He was suggesting that as the English spread their culture they also spread racism. That racism is connected to the language.

Well that's your opinion. I hope you don't mind if I retain my own opinion. Or would you like to send me a detailed list of opinions that I should hold, instructions on how to interpret things your way and so on.

How you differentiate between English speaking people being racist (Ghandi's opionion, not mine) and racism being connected to the English language is beyond me.

CHICO FUENTES

DublinDes wrote:

That Fred Fratton posted " Why not concentrate on the mess your own country is in " ( An insult to all of us, well those who consider themselves Irish )
and " someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " to the McArmalite fella.

and " That just portrays you as a bigot an your posts tend to show otherwise. " to Erin Go Brath.

And then, only the McArmalite fella is banned ?

Des are you of the opinion that Ireland isnt in a mess???

lostexpectation

how did they get into the opium business? there must have been an initial demand from china

Shutuplaura

I'm open to correction here but this is how it happened AFAIK. The British East India Company wanted to trade with China but the main item the Chinese were interested in from Europeans was silver. To stop the silver rush of European bullion to China then another cheaper tradeable commodity was required. The East India Company realized it could grow opium in India and use that to trade with the Chinese instead. This influx of opium into China fueled demand and greatly restored the balance of trade in Britain's favour as now she was able to trade a locally grown commodity (opium) for whatever the hell they wanted from China and avoid paying silver (Sliver was more valuable then than now). Obviously the Chinese government which at the time was desperately trying to stop the spread of European influence into the country didn't like this state of affairs and tried to stop the trade. This eventually led to a war, which was fought by Britain not in defence of the opium trade per se (well it was but they didn't have the honesty to try claim they were fighting for the right to sell dope to the Chinese) but to defend their right to trade whatever the hell they wanted with China.

Fratton Fred

Shutuplaura wrote:

I'm open to correction here but this is how it happened AFAIK. The British East India Company wanted to trade with China but the main item the Chinese were interested in from Europeans was silver. To stop the silver rush of European bullion to China then another cheaper tradeable commodity was required. The East India Company realized it could grow opium in India and use that to trade with the Chinese instead. This influx of opium into China fueled demand and greatly restored the balance of trade in Britain's favour as now she was able to trade a locally grown commodity (opium) for whatever the hell they wanted from China and avoid paying silver (Sliver was more valuable then than now). Obviously the Chinese government which at the time was desperately trying to stop the spread of European influence into the country didn't like this state of affairs and tried to stop the trade. This eventually led to a war, which was fought by Britain not in defence of the opium trade per se (well it was but they didn't have the honesty to try claim they were fighting for the right to sell dope to the Chinese) but to defend their right to trade whatever the hell they wanted with China.

It was a war over trade rights, the fact that the biggest item of trade was opium just makes it even more immoral from Britains perspective. China was opposed to the trade and Britain knew of the effects of Opium so the immorality of the trade was well known. However, China had a lot of goods the rest of the world wanted but Opium was the only thing China wanted in large quantities, so it became the main commodity the west used. Britain, France, America and Russia were all involved but at the time the East India company had the larger resources so were the main players.

If Britain had been importing popcorn into China, there is still a good chance the war would have happened, it was as much a clash of cultures as it was a war over drugs.

Still, in the long run, it looks like China won the trade war:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote:

Still, in the long run, it looks like China won the trade war:rolleyes:

Not yet they haven't, they are just biding their time until they are manufacturing the majority of the high end consumer goods (already cornered the mid range (toys, cheap electronic goods etc)) then they will let the Yuan float. Their oil will suddenly become much cheaper (for the chinese) but their exported goods will become MUCH more expensive.

Of course by this time the west, will have to pay these prices as the local manufacturing base has been wiped out!

Less than ten years at a guess. :eek:

cp251

It never ceases to amaze me. The war is over, both sides won apparently. But we have McArmalite and others still fighting the fight. Never misses the opportunity to have a go at the Brits and their real or imagined awfulness. You know, boys at this stage it's all just history. An interesting read, that's all.

It's almost hilarious, making an issue of the Opium war:D:confused: Who the hell cares? Not even the Chinese give a flying............

I came to the conclusion that there is still this lingering inferiority complex in some quarters when it comes to the English. Get over it, move on. The rest of us have. On the other hand, maybe it's the guilty conscience of the IRA/Sinn Fein supporter. Too many dead innocents on their conscience. Butchered for Ireland! Makes us no better than the Brits after all. We Irish are just as capable of slaughtering people as the great bogie man.