Britian - the Worst Drug Dealer in history

McArmalite

Came across this website about the The Opium War while reading Chinese history ( the british refer to it politely as the Anglo-Chinese War, ofcourse they would, wouldn't they....:mad: ). As the website says " In European history, it is perhaps the most sordid, base, and vicious event in European history, possibly, just possibly, overshadowed by the excesses of the Third Reich in the twentieth century. ..... By the 1830's, the English had become the major drug-trafficking criminal organization in the world; very few drug cartels of the twentieth century can even touch the England of the early nineteenth century in sheer size of criminality. "

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/CHING/OPIUM.HTM

Worth a read. When it comes to depravity, britian makes the Columbian drug barons and the Mafia look like mere amateurs :mad: .

Fratton Fred

McArmalite in "Exposing Victorian Britain's double Standards" shocker :eek:

why has the author missed out the fact that the US (along with France and Russia) were involved in this as much, if not more, than the British.

Oh yeah, it's written by an American :rolleyes:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/heroin/opiwar1.htm

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote:

McArmalite in "Exposing Victorian Britain's double Standards" shocker :eek:

why has the author missed out the fact that the US (along with France and Russia) were involved in this as much, if not more, than the British.

Oh yeah, it's written by an American :rolleyes:

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/heroin/opiwar1.htm

Well Fred, I expected a reply from you suggesting something like " britain naively didn't understand the effects of Opium, and genuinely thought it was a benign stress/pain reliever .....bearing the white man's burden etc".

Others countries may have been slightly invovled but the degenerate british state was the primary drug pusher. as the author states - " By the 1830's, the English had become the major drug-trafficking criminal organization in the world ".

But that's the british sense of fairplay for you. I think it was Gandhi who once said " Wherever the English language is spoken, racism is always at it's worst ". Proud of yourselve Fred ?

( BTW - Wherever the English language is spoken, racism is always at it's worst - includes Ireland)

Mick86

McArmalite wrote:

I think it was Gandhi who once said " Wherever the English language is spoken, racism is always at it's worst ".

What about the Hindu Caste system.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote:

Well Fred, I expected a reply from you suggesting something like " britain naively didn't understand the effects of Opium, and genuinely thought it was a benign stress/pain reliever .....bearing the white man's burden etc".

Others countries may have been slightly invovled but the degenerate british state was the primary drug pusher. as the author states - " By the 1830's, the English had become the major drug-trafficking criminal organization in the world ".

But that's the british sense of fairplay for you. I think it was Gandhi who once said " Wherever the English language is spoken, racism is always at it's worst ". Proud of yourselve Fred ?

( BTW - Wherever the English language is spoken, racism is always at it's worst - includes Ireland)

Not Proud O'Lep, just a realist.

I do find it amusing that a supporter of SF/IRA is critiscising another countries involvement in the drug trade, Then again, if the Columbian Drug baron's weren't the Amateurs you describe them, then there would be a few less well off SF councillors in this country:rolleyes:

Anyway, back on topic, the effects of Opium had become known by then and the west had exploited China's love of this drug. America, Russia and France all exported Opium to China along with Britain, what we do not know of course is how many Irishmen were involved in this, because their involvement would have been hidden behind the Union flag.

Still, I expect if there were any Irishmen involved, they would have only been there "Observing The Elections" eh.;)

McArmalite

Mick86 wrote:

What about the Hindu Caste system.

I don't know anything about the Hindu Caste system, but if you wish to elaborate on another thread by all means do so.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote:

I don't know anything about the Hindu Caste system, but if you wish to elaborate on another thread by all means do so.

great thing this intranet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_caste_system

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote:

Not Proud O'Lep, just a realist.

I do find it amusing that a supporter of SF/IRA is critiscising another countries involvement in the drug trade, Then again, if the Columbian Drug baron's weren't the Amateurs you describe them, then there would be a few less well off SF councillors in this country:rolleyes:

Anyway, back on topic, the effects of Opium had become known by then and the west had exploited China's love of this drug. America, Russia and France all exported Opium to China along with Britain, what we do not know of course is how many Irishmen were involved in this, because their involvement would have been hidden behind the Union flag.

Still, I expect if there were any Irishmen involved, they would have only been there "Observing The Elections" eh.;)

Well when I orginally posted, I wondered how long a discussion about a british drug pushing in the 18th century would go before the 'baddie' IRA ( 1969 - ) would come in

Can you tell me how many "well off SF councillors in this country" have/are convicted of drug pushing ?? Indeed the vast majority of SF councillors and members, and I'm not one of the Gerry is God brigade, that I have known are decent blue collar people form council estates etc. Honestly, whatever else about them. And for that matter, how many 'baddie' IRA ( 1969 - ) volunteers have served their time on the wing of an IRA prison for drugs offences ?

" how many Irishmen were involved in this, because their involvement would have been hidden behind the " butchers apron .
Yes some men from Ireland were invovled in britain's drug pushing, but a person who joins the forces of occupation - britian - becomes a citizen of the occupying force and obviously shares its value system, like someone in Vichy France who assisted the Nazi's.

Drug pushing, genocide, ethnic cleansing, rascism, slavery, posionous gas against civilians, concentration camps etc are the values of the british state. I would like to know where in the writings of Irish nationalism, Connolly, Wolfe Tone, etc is there an ambition indicated to drop to the terrorist practices and ambitions of britain against other nations ?? And surely you must agree, that britain makes the Columbian drug barons look like a hippy selling a bit of grass in Temple Bar ?

mike65

Don't feed the troll!

Mike.

the_syco

The question should be why did they ban weed, but not drink?

=-=

By the 1830's, the English had become the major drug-trafficking criminal organization in the world

By the 1830's, the English had become the major trafficker of pretty f**king everything.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote:

Well when I orginally posted, I wondered how long a discussion about a british drug pushing in the 18th century would go before the 'baddie' IRA ( 1969 - ) would come in

then why did you start the thread inthe first place

McArmalite wrote:

Can you tell me how many "well off SF councillors in this country" have/are convicted of drug pushing ?? Indeed the vast majority of SF councillors and members, and I'm not one of the Gerry is God brigade, that I have known are decent blue collar people form council estates etc. Honestly, whatever else about them. And for that matter, how many 'baddie' IRA ( 1969 - ) volunteers have served their time on the wing of an IRA prison for drugs offences ?

ok, so the IRA don;t get involved in drug dealing. Wow, you must be the onl person on this island who believes that

McArmalite wrote:

" how many Irishmen were involved in this, because their involvement would have been hidden behind the " butchers apron .
Yes some men from Ireland were invovled in britain's drug pushing, but a person who joins the forces of occupation - britian - becomes a citizen of the occupying force and obviously shares its value system, like someone in Vichy France who assisted the Nazi's.

how very convenient for you.

McArmalite wrote:

Drug pushing, genocide, ethnic cleansing, rascism, slavery, posionous gas against civilians, concentration camps etc are the values of the british state. I would like to know where in the writings of Irish nationalism, Connolly, Wolfe Tone, etc is there an ambition indicated to drop to the terrorist practices and ambitions of britain against other nations ?? And surely you must agree, that britain makes the Columbian drug barons look like a hippy selling a bit of grass in Temple Bar ?

They are not the values of the Britsh state, they are things the British state has been accused of carrying out over the past 500 years, but none of these things have happened in my life time or the life time of my parents ( or in the case of Genocide, Poison gas on innocents ethnic cleansing and to an extent rascism carried out at all), so why are you pointing the finger at me as if I carried them out??

You really need to sort out that chip on your shoulder, it must be getting quite heavy.

Fratton Fred

mike65 wrote:

Don't feed the troll!

Mike.

but I enjoy it, it's kind of like poking a stick in an ants nest, just slightly less taxing on the brain

Mick86

McArmalite wrote:

I don't know anything about the Hindu Caste system, but if you wish to elaborate on another thread by all means do so.

Since you introduced racism into the thread we might as well continue. Ghandi was a Hindu, a religion which practices the caste system where people are divided into classes according to their station in life. The lowest caste were literally untouchable. While Ghandi deplored the system, I don't think that anybody from such a society has any business lecturing the English about racism.

wildwords

Fratton Fred wrote:

then why did you start the thread inthe first place

ok, so the IRA don;t get involved in drug dealing. Wow, you must be the onl person on this island who believes that

how very convenient for you.



They are not the values of the Britsh state, they are things the British state has been accused of carrying out over the past 500 years, but none of these things have happened in my life time or the life time of my parents ( or in the case of Genocide, Poison gas on innocents ethnic cleansing and to an extent rascism carried out at all), so why are you pointing the finger at me as if I carried them out??

You really need to sort out that chip on your shoulder, it must be getting quite heavy.

unbeliveable!
I would say 'check your history mate' because I know your limited educational system doesnt actualy cover anything that Britan did to gain its current wealth. Selective memory I think its called. so maybe check someones elses history!

How much mustard gas was dumped off the coast of Malin head Co. Donegal after the first world war??

I seem to remember a famous sign in hyde park which read - no dogs or Irish-
seen In place in 1930's by relations of mine - well within your grandparents time I would imagine.

In 1844 the debate in Parliment at Westminister During the month of October was about deliberate ethnic cleansing on a neighbouring Island, called Ireland.

Boar war - Britan invented the concentration camp

maybe its time you got your washboard and tryed rowing onto another Island as your attitude is predictably ignorant and just like all the brits running from thier self designed sinking ship that is Britan. I see them everywhere in hiding places like RTE, Leitrim and Cavan. you wont find your version of soical order and the good old freindly ways in these places?

ejmaztec

wildwords wrote:

unbeliveable!
I would say 'check your history mate' because I know your limited educational system doesnt actualy cover anything that Britan did to gain its current wealth. Selective memory I think its called. so maybe check someones elses history!

How much mustard gas was dumped off the coast of Malin head Co. Donegal after the first world war??

I seem to remember a famous sign in hyde park which read - no dogs or Irish-
seen In place in 1930's by relations of mine - well within your grandparents time I would imagine.

In 1844 the debate in Parliment at Westminister During the month of October was about deliberate ethnic cleansing on a neighbouring Island, called Ireland.

Boar war - Britan invented the concentration camp

maybe its time you got your washboard and tryed rowing onto another Island as your attitude is predictably ignorant and just like all the brits running from thier self designed sinking ship that is Britan. I see them everywhere in hiding places like RTE, Leitrim and Cavan. you wont find your version of soical order and the good old freindly ways in these places?

Would the wash-board be for sitting on, or would it be used as a paddle? Either way, I think that you'll be stuck with Fred, as I would imagine that he wouldn't find this a suitable means of maritime transportation.:D

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote:

ok, so the IRA don;t get involved in drug dealing. Wow, you must be the onl person on this island who believes that

Where's the evidence pal, EVIDENCE. Accusation and black propaganda is one thing, actual proof is another. Still I cannot resist putting another nail in the coffin of the 'great' and 'glorious' history of britian - the worst drug pusher in history

Shutuplaura

Mick86 wrote:

Since you introduced racism into the thread we might as well continue. Ghandi was a Hindu, a religion which practices the caste system where people are divided into classes according to their station in life. The lowest caste were literally untouchable. While Ghandi deplored the system, I don't think that anybody from such a society has any business lecturing the English about racism.

What an ignorant post. I am actually staggered by it. Given Ghandi's actions against rascism in South Africa it is also extremely ironic. I mean Ghandi was from a society that had the caste system so we can't accept his comments? Mick you (and I in case you hadn't guessed) are from a rough dirty little town which is famous for being a crime ridden dump. By your own logic it means that you can't criticize say the IRA for criminality regardless of whether you are personally law abiding or not. Its crazy nonsense and i would have expected more from you. That anyone tries to back you up is laughable. If you can't criticise the argument on its merits then don't bother or if you have a burning desire to debate the Indian Caste system (which isn't as cut and dried as you think by the way and way actually made worse under British rule*.... though I am loate to admit that nugget because it will have me sounding like the dude who started this nonsense thread) then have the guts to put it out there and start a thread on it. Hopefully the mod's will have the sense to lock this thread becasue i suspect nothing of value will emerge except some more boring finger pointing.

* India was ruled my the muslim moghuls prior to the British conquests. They had no particular love of the caste system which was hindu. Caste ivisions under the moghuls were far more flexable and less dominating socially than they were to become. The europeans who came a long way in small numbers to rule a vast multitude of indians used it as a tool to help then divide and rule. Same as the French in Indo-china, the Belgians in Rwanda and the Dutch in the east indies.

Erin Go Brath

McArm you're the biggest **** stirrer on boards.

Well any post that highlights the hyprocrisy of Perfidious Albion gets the thumbs up from me. Keep up the good work of educating the Shoneens.

Mick86

Shutuplaura wrote:

What an ignorant post. I am actually staggered by it.....

And so on and so forth.

Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

Romans 2:1

McArmalite

Erin Go Brath wrote:

McArm you're the biggest **** stirrer on boards.

Well any post that highlights the hyprocrisy of Perfidious Albion gets the thumbs up from me. Keep up the good work of educating the Shoneens.

Go raibh maith agat a chara.....as you say anything that " highlights the hypocrisy of Perfidious Albion" and stirs up the English unionist and the few Shoneens on the board

Mick86

Shutuplaura wrote:

Mick you (and I in case you hadn't guessed) are from a rough dirty little town which is famous for being a crime ridden dump. By your own logic it means that you can't criticize say the IRA for criminality regardless of whether you are personally law abiding or not.

Of course I can. What I cannot do is criticise Limerick (for example) as a crime ridden dump when I come froma crime ridden dump.

Shutuplaura wrote:

if you have a burning desire to debate the Indian Caste system

I can't say that I do. I thought (and still think) that Ghandi's statement, was on the face of it, bollocks.

Shutuplaura

Mick via the book of Romans wrote:

Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
.

Your statement would make sense if Ghandi was ambivalant about the caste system. He clearly wasn't which is why your attack is baffling. I realise you probably know very little about the guy but no worries, it was a long film and I'm sure lots of people strugle to watch it all.

Shutuplaura

Found the below quote in Wikipedia by the way so you don't have to take my word on it regarding the solidification of the caste system under the British. This makes your comment even more ironic I have to say.

"Some scholars point that the hierarchy of the castes was more fluid, prior to the arrival of the British. The Brahmins were placed at the top of the hierarchy and the untouchables (Dalits) were placed at the bottom. However, the relative ranking of other castes differed from one place to another.[23] The castes did not constitute a rigid description of the occupation or the social status of a group. Since the British society was divided by class, the British attempted to equate the Indian caste system to the class system."

Read the whole thing and you might learn something. For a start the caste system was based on occupation and social standing rather than race. Also says that Gandhi spoke of against the caste system and the plight of the untouchables but that his efforts were not always helpful. Still he actually attempted to reform this aspect of Indian society which was made a lot worse by European interference. As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_caste_system

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote:

great thing this intranet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_caste_system

The " great thing this intranet " ??

An intranet is a private computer network that uses Internet protocols, network connectivity to securely share part of an organization's information or operations with its employees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intranet

The Internet is a worldwide, publicly accessible series of interconnected computer networks that transmit data by packet switching using the standard Internet Protocol (IP). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

BTW as Shutuplaura posts - " The castes did not constitute a rigid description of the occupation or the social status of a group. Since the British society was divided by class, the British attempted to equate the Indian caste system to the class system "

Ah yes, the cancer of human society, britian, distorts and destroys yet again.

Fratton Fred

wildwords wrote:

unbeliveable!
I would say 'check your history mate' because I know your limited educational system doesnt actualy cover anything that Britan did to gain its current wealth. Selective memory I think its called. so maybe check someones elses history!

How much mustard gas was dumped off the coast of Malin head Co. Donegal after the first world war??

I seem to remember a famous sign in hyde park which read - no dogs or Irish-
seen In place in 1930's by relations of mine - well within your grandparents time I would imagine.

In 1844 the debate in Parliment at Westminister During the month of October was about deliberate ethnic cleansing on a neighbouring Island, called Ireland.

Boar war - Britan invented the concentration camp

maybe its time you got your washboard and tryed rowing onto another Island as your attitude is predictably ignorant and just like all the brits running from thier self designed sinking ship that is Britan. I see them everywhere in hiding places like RTE, Leitrim and Cavan. you wont find your version of soical order and the good old freindly ways in these places?

Wow, and you call me ignorant.:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote:

The " great thing this intranet " ??

An intranet is a private computer network that uses Internet protocols, network connectivity to securely share part of an organization's information or operations with its employees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intranet

The Internet is a worldwide, publicly accessible series of interconnected computer networks that transmit data by packet switching using the standard Internet Protocol (IP). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

BTW as Shutuplaura posts - " The castes did not constitute a rigid description of the occupation or the social status of a group. Since the British society was divided by class, the British attempted to equate the Indian caste system to the class system "

Ah yes, the cancer of human society, britian, distorts and destroys yet again.

Pathetic.

Slate another country to make your own pathetic existance seem better. Why not concentrate on the mess your own country is in rather than come up with sensationalist comments about another.

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote:

Well any post that highlights the hyprocrisy of Perfidious Albion gets the thumbs up from me. Keep up the good work of educating the Shoneens.

I thought you were better than that. That just portrays you as a bigot an your posts tend to show otherwise.

Mick86

Shutuplaura wrote:

Your statement would make sense if Ghandi was ambivalant about the caste system. He clearly wasn't which is why your attack is baffling.

Firstly I didn't attack Ghandi, I merely pointed out that someone coming from an institutionally bigotted society, as Ghandi did, has a bit of cheek casting stones at others . Secondly I pointed out that Ghandi actually deplored the caste system. That fact is actually irrelevant, Ghandi made a statement that all English speaking (not just English) people are racist. In itself that statement is inherently racist. It doesn't stand up when you consider such English speaking non-racists as William Wilberforce, Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King. Not to mention the plethora of non-Anglophone racists. The Spanish and Portuguese for example. The Belgians in the Congo, the Germans anywhere. Ghandi may have been a great man but that didn't make him infallible.

The workings of the caste system and whether or not the English made it worse or not have no bearing on the argument either. All that matters is the system existed and probably still does in places.

CHICO FUENTES

I've been reading these threads from afar for a while now and feel the urge to ask a pertinant question. McArmalite have you ever lived outside of Ireland? Being a Corkman brought up on stories of old and having been indoctrinated in anti English teachings at School, just like yourself, I find some of your posts a bit passe. Give it up fella. No one wants this type of aggro anymore, people are quite happy to get along in the Eurozone now. I have lived in England now for 4 years and I love it over here. Yes it's social problems are a worry, but Ireland's are just as bad. Whenever I come home all I see is a nation of materialistic morons who would gladly trade another county for an increase in their bank balance. Ireland aint what it used to be. England is a nation with problems but i'd take it over today's Ireland anyday.

SpitfireIV

CHICO FUENTES wrote:

and having been indoctrinated in anti English teachings at School, just like yourself, I find some of your posts a bit passe. Give it up fella. No one wants this type of aggro anymore

Jeez, I dont know what kind of school ye went too, I was thought 'history' and it was just that, nothing 'anti' about it. Anyway CHICO, I wouldnt mind him, he specialises in raking up old graves, stirring sh1t and highlighting the injustices of generations long gone :rolleyes:

PHB

Lads, lets keep it civil. Stop calling people trolls etc, if they are, just report them, I'll deal with it. Just try stay on topic.

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote:

I thought you were better than that. That just portrays you as a bigot an your posts tend to show otherwise.

Still sticking up for the genecidal, major drug trafficing country of the 19th century i see. If these threads have any use it's highlighting the evils of colonial Britain. It seems its popular to brush it under the carpet these days, lest someone be called a bigot or a crank. Or in the case of your countries education system to twist it to the point of telling barefaced lies, or just airbrushing anything from history which portrays the Empire negatively.

By all means lets move on and Anglo-Irish relations are very good these days which i'm happy about. But for gods sake Fred quit defending the undefendable! These replies like: "but the ira did this" don't wash. It's like comparing a petty thief to a serial killer. The Empire has the blood of millions on its hands, and no amount of revisionism in the world will change that!

Snickers Man

McArmalite wrote:

. I would like to know where in the writings of Irish nationalism, Connolly, Wolfe Tone, etc is there an ambition indicated to drop to the terrorist practices and ambitions of britain against other nations ??

Didn't Wolfe Tone once propose to Pitt that he lead a mission to colonise the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii) for Britain?

Don't think old Theo would have gone in for a grass skirt and a lei, do you? I reckon the Sandwich Islanders would have been forced to conform or face the consequences.

Good old Theo.

Shutuplaura

Mick86 wrote:

Firstly I didn't attack Ghandi, I merely pointed out that someone coming from an institutionally bigotted society, as Ghandi did, has a bit of cheek casting stones at others .

Are you kidding? You are attacking him in the same sentence you started with "firstly I didn't attack Ghandi."

Your quote: "I thought (and still think) that Ghandi's statement, was on the face of it, bollocks" also sounds very much like an attack to me.

Mick86 wrote:

The workings of the caste system and whether or not the English made it worse or not have no bearing on the argument either. All that matters is the system existed and probably still does in places.

Your statement here shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the caste system and its development. It is also in line with the OP's original assertaion about racism in the British Empire so I'm pretty sure it does have a bearing on the argument whether you would like it to or not.

Mick86 wrote:

That fact is actually irrelevant, Ghandi made a statement that all English speaking (not just English) people are racist. In itself that statement is inherently racist. It doesn't stand up when you consider such English speaking non-racists as William Wilberforce, Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King. Not to mention the plethora of non-Anglophone racists. The Spanish and Portuguese for example. The Belgians in the Congo, the Germans anywhere. Ghandi may have been a great man but that didn't make him infallible.

That I would agree with partly anyway. Imperialism tends to cause racism whether the imperial overlords are Asian, African, American or European. Given Ghandi's experience under British rule in South Africa and India I'd forgive him a bit of hyperbole.

Did he actually say though that all English people are racist? I don't think it was as simple as that but I'm open to correction.

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote:

Still sticking up for the genecidal, major drug trafficing country of the 19th century i see. If these threads have any use it's highlighting the evils of colonial Britain. It seems its popular to brush it under the carpet these days, lest someone be called a bigot or a crank. Or in the case of your countries education system to twist it to the point of telling barefaced lies, or just airbrushing anything from history which portrays the Empire negatively.

By all means lets move on and Anglo-Irish relations are very good these days which i'm happy about. But for gods sake Fred quit defending the undefendable! These replies like: "but the ira did this" don't wash. It's like comparing a petty thief to a serial killer. The Empire has the blood of millions on its hands, and no amount of revisionism in the world will change that!

Britains past is the past, what pisses me off is when someone considers the acts of 150 years ago to represent the Britain of today. Just because some small minded person insists on living in the past it doesm't mean Britain is.

When you talk of the past you have to take everything in context, Britai and China had a war over trade, the biggest part of which was opium, what McArmalite seems to forget is that Ireland undoubtedly played a part in this as well as many other nations.

I'm happy to get into a conversations about what the imperial powers did 2,3 or 4 hundred years ago, but all the imperial powers were doing it, not just Britain. If I thought for one minute the OP was trying to highlight what a bad place the world was in the 19th century then fine, lets talk about it, but his main reason for these posts are purely to satisfy his hatred for Ireland's neighbour.

These threads of McArmalit's aren't anything to do with history, they are jsut spitful attacks on Britain by someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder.

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote:

Britains past is the past, what pisses me off is when someone considers the acts of 150 years ago to represent the Britain of today. Just because some small minded person insists on living in the past it doesm't mean Britain is.

When you talk of the past you have to take everything in context, Britai and China had a war over trade, the biggest part of which was opium, what McArmalite seems to forget is that Ireland undoubtedly played a part in this as well as many other nations.

I'm happy to get into a conversations about what the imperial powers did 2,3 or 4 hundred years ago, but all the imperial powers were doing it, not just Britain. If I thought for one minute the OP was trying to highlight what a bad place the world was in the 19th century then fine, lets talk about it, but his main reason for these posts are purely to satisfy his hatred for Ireland's neighbour.

These threads of McArmalit's aren't anything to do with history, they are jsut spitful attacks on Britain by someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder.

If he does, you're equally as guilty by ignoring Britains past, and trying to create a smokescreen 'but look what that crowd was doing' etc etc. Britain has never been held to task for its many crimes against humanity, which by the way far outweigh what any other nation in the world did through the 19th century. You need to come to terms with it.

A lot of us are guilty of glorifying our historical leaders who lead the fight for freedom as well, I hasten to add. I'm looking forward to seeing tonights Hidden History programme which delves into the myths surrounding Michael Collins, and more specifically The Intelligence War in Dublin at the time. (RTE 1 - 10.15 if anyones interested)

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote:

If he does, you're equally as guilty by ignoring Britains past, and trying to create a smokescreen 'but look what that crowd was doing' etc etc. Britain has never been held to task for its many crimes against humanity, which by the way far outweigh what any other nation in the world did through the 19th century. You need to come to terms with it.

A lot of us are guilty of glorifying our historical leaders who lead the fight for freedom as well, I hasten to add. I'm looking forward to seeing tonights Hidden History programme which delves into the myths surrounding Michael Collins, and more specifically The Intelligence War in Dublin at the time. (RTE 1 - 10.15 if anyones interested)

that's more like it

I will try and watch that, Michael Collins is one of the few Irish leaders I would consider "Great". Throughout Irish history, in my interpretation of it, there have been numerous times where the Irish have been their own worst enemy, the killing of Michael Collins I consider one such examplem but that's a different topic.

SpitfireIV

Erin Go Brath wrote:

If he does, you're equally as guilty by ignoring Britains past, and trying to create a smokescreen 'but look what that crowd was doing' etc etc. Britain has never been held to task for its many crimes against humanity, which by the way far outweigh what any other nation in the world did through the 19th century. You need to come to terms with it.

Yes Fred, hang your head in shame! This is starting to sound like that 'Fast Show' gag where the German guy feels he has to apologise to the every British person he meets for his countries action during the war :rolleyes:

With all due respect I think Fred is aware of what has gone on in Britains past, we all are, no one is denying that Britain took part in atrocities, but can you, or anyone else in the same mindset explain exactly what the use, or purpose is in dragging up the past and using it for bitterness and finger pointing. I'm afraid the people who were responsible for these crimes are long since dead, so who are we pointing the finger of blame at? The British public in general? Blame them for the wrongs of there predecossors?

Another question, seriously I'd like to know, but what would you like to see done about it? Some form of apology or such? I wasnt aware of that Collins programme, I'll have to watch it, cheers.

edit: I wasnt trying to be smart or funny etc in that post, but I'm just struggling to understand your point of view (as you are mine probably )

Mick86

Shutuplaura wrote:

Are you kidding? You are attacking him in the same sentence you started with "firstly I didn't attack Ghandi."

Your quote: "I thought (and still think) that Ghandi's statement, was on the face of it, bollocks" also sounds very much like an attack to me. .

That's attacking the statement not the man. If I said "Ghandi was a bollocks" that's attacking the man.

Shutuplaura wrote:

Your statement here shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the caste system and its development.

I admit to having a very basic understanding of the system. I also have absolutely no interest in an in depth study of it. It isn't necessary for the purpose of this debate. Your contention that the British made the system worse is by the way and does not take away from the fact that the belief in such a system predates British rule.

Shutuplaura wrote:

Given Ghandi's experience under British rule in South Africa and India I'd forgive him a bit of hyperbole.

Engaging in racist rhetoric is dangerous and unpardonable in people of influence.

Shutuplaura wrote:

Did he actually say though that all English people are racist? I don't think it was as simple as that but I'm open to correction.

If you can believe McArmalite's quote it was

"Wherever the English language is spoken, racism is always at it's worst"

Erin Go Brath

CroppyBoy1798 wrote:

Yes Fred, hang your head in shame! This is starting to sound like that 'Fast Show' gag where the German guy feels he has to apologise to the every British person he meets for his countries action during the war :rolleyes:

With all due respect I think Fred is aware of what has gone on in Britains past, we all are, no one is denying that Britain took part in atrocities, but can you, or anyone else in the same mindset explain exactly what the use, or purpose is in dragging up the past and using it for bitterness and finger pointing. I'm afraid the people who were responsible for these crimes are long since dead, so who are we pointing the finger of blame at? The British public in general? Blame them for the wrongs of there predecossors?

Another question, seriously I'd like to know, but what would you like to see done about it? Some form of apology or such? I wasnt aware of that Collins programme, I'll have to watch it, cheers.

edit: I wasnt trying to be smart or funny etc in that post, but I'm just struggling to understand your point of view (as you are mine probably )

Croppyboy I can't reconcile ur nick with your political attitude at all, quite the opposite its bizarre really.

Fred is well aware whats gone in British history, im sure. Are you though? Or is this bury your head in the sand deliberate? What happened in history has happened we can't dilute it for fear of offending someones sensibilities.

As for dragging up the past. Its the history forum, what else are we supposed to do?

McArmalite

CHICO FUENTES wrote:

I've been reading these threads from afar for a while now and feel the urge to ask a pertinant question. McArmalite have you ever lived outside of Ireland? Being a Corkman brought up on stories of old and having been indoctrinated in anti English teachings at School, just like yourself, I find some of your posts a bit passe.......Whenever I come home all I see is a nation of materialistic morons who would gladly trade another county for an increase in their bank balance. Ireland aint what it used to be. England is a nation with problems but i'd take it over today's Ireland anyday.

Rule Britannia !!!! - " England is a nation with problems but i'd take it over today's Ireland anyday. "

" McArmalite have you ever lived outside of Ireland? " Yes, in Holland and Germany for a few months each. Try to visit at least one forrign country a year. Thinking of visiting the People's Republic of Cork before Xmas

" Whenever I come home all I see is a nation of materialistic morons " Well, I can agree entirely with you there, our parents generation had much better values.

But as for " Being a Corkman brought up on stories of old and having been indoctrinated in anti English teachings at School," Well, that's quite the opposite than my experience of school and the media during youth. From been heros to the outright black propaganda been pushed down our throats at school/TV etc from the John A Murphy's, Eoghan Harass ( Harris), Conor Booze O'Brien, Ruth Dudley West Brit ( Edwards) etc that were pushed to the forefront of 'experts' on Irish history. Things like - James Connolly an evil Stalinist, Wolfetone a egomaniac who hijacked the revoulotionary spirit of the time, 1798 in Wexford a secterian slaughter, 1916 a stab in poor old britain's back that destroyed the goodwill of britain and any real chance of an independent Ireland - what a load of sh1te written by sh1te.

As Erin Go Brath says - " It seems its popular to brush it under the carpet these days, lest someone be called a bigot or a crank. "

I'm not trying to provoke an argument with you CHICO FUENTES, the vast majority of British people are fine, Jayus, I've had girlfriends from England, I'm not an anti English bigot. The vast majority of ordinary people in Britain aren't interested in queen and country and past glorious empire etc But Fred Fratton... he comes across as the type in England who stand on a terrace at a soccer match chanting " I'd rather be a packie than a scouse...they're ain't no black in the union jack let's send them back " etc ( I sometimes wonder did he get a crack across the head from a Guard at Lansdowne Road when the british white thrash were over chanting " No surrenda to the IRA " a few years back.Here's hoping ).

I orginally joined boards.ie just to read the Martial Arts boards (I'm a Martial Arts nut), but when I casually wandered onto the history board and seen the postings form that English unionist bigot, fine I thought, I'll make a few dents in his brit ego - and best of all, I'm getting there

No Fred, " they are jsut spitful attacks on Britain by someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " Just bring a few home truths to you reagarding the wonderful historical heritage your great country has

Or in the words of Erin Go Brath " As for dragging up the past. Its the history forum, what else are we supposed to do? "

CHICO FUENTES

McArmalite wrote:

Rule Britannia !!!! - " England is a nation with problems but i'd take it over today's Ireland anyday. "

" McArmalite have you ever lived outside of Ireland? " Yes, in Holland and Germany for a few months each. Try to visit at least one forrign country a year. Thinking of visiting the People's Republic of Cork before Xmas

" Whenever I come home all I see is a nation of materialistic morons " Well, I can agree entirely with you there, our parents generation had much better values.

But as for " Being a Corkman brought up on stories of old and having been indoctrinated in anti English teachings at School," Well, that's quite the opposite than my experience of school and the media during youth. From been heros to the outright black propaganda been pushed down our throats at school/TV etc from the John A Murphy's, Eoghan Harass ( Harris), Conor Booze O'Brien, Ruth Dudley West Brit ( Edwards) etc that were pushed to the forefront of 'experts' on Irish history. Things like - James Connolly an evil Stalinist, Wolfetone a egomaniac who hijacked the revoulotionary spirit of the time, 1798 in Wexford a secterian slaughter, 1916 a stab in poor old britain's back that destroyed the goodwill of britain and any real chance of an independent Ireland - what a load of sh1te written by sh1te.

As Erin Go Brath says - " It seems its popular to brush it under the carpet these days, lest someone be called a bigot or a crank. "

I'm not trying to provoke an argument with you CHICO FUENTES, the vast majority of British people are fine, Jayus, I've had girlfriends from England, I'm not an anti English bigot. The vast majority of ordinary people in Britain aren't interested in queen and country and past glorious empire etc But Fred Fratton... he comes across as the type in England who stand on a terrace at a soccer match chanting " I'd rather be a packie than a scouse...they're ain't no black in the union jack let's send them back " etc ( I sometimes wonder did he get a crack across the head from a Guard at Lansdowne Road when the british white thrash were over chanting " No surrenda to the IRA " a few years back.Here's hoping ).

I orginally joined boards.ie just to read the Martial Arts boards (I'm a Martial Arts nut), but when I casually wandered onto the history board and seen the postings form that English unionist bigot, fine I thought, I'll make a few dents in his brit ego - and best of all, I'm getting there

No Fred, " they are jsut spitful attacks on Britain by someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " Just bring a few home truths to you reagarding the wonderful historical heritage your great country has

Or in the words of Erin Go Brath " As for dragging up the past. Its the history forum, what else are we supposed to do? "

Fair play, thats me told!;)

ejmaztec

Being a "Plastic Paddy" educated in England, I can say with certainty that I was never taught about any "Anglo-Chinese War". They were always referred to as "Opium Wars". All of my history teachers were of the opinion that the British Empire produced quite a few "Bad Bas*ards", and in no way made any excuses for the actions of any of them. There was no cover-up or re-writing of history. Britain 100 years ago=chalk. Britain now=cheese.

PHB

Quote:

No Fred, " they are jsut spitful attacks on Britain by someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " Just bring a few home truths to you reagarding the wonderful historical heritage your great country has

If that was the case, it'd be fine. But unfortunately you can't seem to do that without continuously insulting and harassing him. Due to that, one week ban as you've been warned before.

brianthebard

McArmalite wrote:

Where's the evidence pal, EVIDENCE. Accusation and black propaganda is one thing, actual proof is another. Still I cannot resist putting another nail in the coffin of the 'great' and 'glorious' history of britian - the worst drug pusher in history

Everything written about Slab Murphy?

brianthebard

Mick86 wrote:

Firstly I didn't attack Ghandi, I merely pointed out that someone coming from an institutionally bigotted society, as Ghandi did, has a bit of cheek casting stones at others . Secondly I pointed out that Ghandi actually deplored the caste system. That fact is actually irrelevant, Ghandi made a statement that all English speaking (not just English) people are racist. In itself that statement is inherently racist. It doesn't stand up when you consider such English speaking non-racists as William Wilberforce, Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King. Not to mention the plethora of non-Anglophone racists. The Spanish and Portuguese for example. The Belgians in the Congo, the Germans anywhere. Ghandi may have been a great man but that didn't make him infallible.

Its like you took one soundbite and constructed a whole narrative about a person that bears no resemblence to Ghandi. And you didn't even interpret the statement correctly. He wasn't saying that English speaking people are racist, cause that would be pretty dumb. He was suggesting that as the English spread their culture they also spread racism. That racism is connected to the language.

DublinDes

PHB wrote:

If that was the case, it'd be fine. But unfortunately you can't seem to do that without continuously insulting and harassing him. Due to that, one week ban as you've been warned before.

That Fred Fratton posted " Why not concentrate on the mess your own country is in " ( An insult to all of us, well those who consider themselves Irish )

and " someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " to the McArmalite fella.

and " That just portrays you as a bigot an your posts tend to show otherwise. " to Erin Go Brath.

And then, only the McArmalite fella is banned ?

Fratton Fred

DublinDes wrote:

That Fred Fratton posted " Why not concentrate on the mess your own country is in " ( An insult to all of us, well those who consider themselves Irish )

and " someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " to the McArmalite fella.

and " That just portrays you as a bigot an your posts tend to show otherwise. " to Erin Go Brath.

And then, only the McArmalite fella is banned ?

the Mac is back :rolleyes:

Mick86

brianthebard wrote:

Its like you took one soundbite and constructed a whole narrative about a person that bears no resemblence to Ghandi. And you didn't even interpret the statement correctly. He wasn't saying that English speaking people are racist, cause that would be pretty dumb. He was suggesting that as the English spread their culture they also spread racism. That racism is connected to the language.

Well that's your opinion. I hope you don't mind if I retain my own opinion. Or would you like to send me a detailed list of opinions that I should hold, instructions on how to interpret things your way and so on.

How you differentiate between English speaking people being racist (Ghandi's opionion, not mine) and racism being connected to the English language is beyond me.

CHICO FUENTES

DublinDes wrote:

That Fred Fratton posted " Why not concentrate on the mess your own country is in " ( An insult to all of us, well those who consider themselves Irish )
and " someone who appears to have a massive chip on his shoulder. " to the McArmalite fella.

and " That just portrays you as a bigot an your posts tend to show otherwise. " to Erin Go Brath.

And then, only the McArmalite fella is banned ?

Des are you of the opinion that Ireland isnt in a mess???

lostexpectation

how did they get into the opium business? there must have been an initial demand from china