Want to convert but...

Shinto

When Benifa mentioned Geography he/she actually raised a valid point (unwittingly i'm sure). If a child is born in a religious country, it will most likely grow up believing in that country's magic man, the child will be raised to not question the beliefs of that society. That is true, and Benifa is right on that.

But 2+2=4 no matter what part of the world you come from. That is...Maths, Science, and Reason are the same irregardless of geography. Obviously there is always differing views within the scientific community, but that's how science develops...through questioning, peer review, and repeated experimentation.
But as Benifa pointed out (unwittingly im sure), religious beliefs are generally dependent on where you're born (nearly always dependent on your familys beliefs). If i'm born in Israel, i'll most likely be a Jew, USA...christain...Middle East....muslim, India...hindu etc. Can you imagine a world where reason and science differed depending on geography? Can you imagine different regions having different answers to the simple 2+2 maths problem. It's therefore important that an adult realises that their religion is Arbitrary.

For those of you who dont know what "arbitrary" means...one dictionary definition is "Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle."

A belief should only exist if there's some evidence to support it. Not one claim that religous people make has any supporting evidence. Please tell me if there is some? I'm a reasonable person, i will change my opinion when i see some evidence.

I'm honestly interested in your opinions. I genuinely am.

Back to the Irish man considering converting to Islam....i'd like to hear your response as well.

wes

Shinto wrote: »

"god is not great" by Christopher Hitchens,

The same Hitchens who still supports the illegal aggressive Iraq war? I may not agree with the 2 other authors, but I can respect there opinions, but someone who is such a vocal supporter of theft of natural resources and the war to steal them doesn't deserve it.

InFront

Shinto welcome to the forum. Please read the forum charter before posting on this topic again. I'd particularly refer you to the part where it says:

Forum Charter
Let me make something absolutly clear in this forum. It is for the open discussion of the religon for those who are following it or for those who may have honest questions about it. IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO VENT, OR FOR MUSLIMS TO HAVE TO DEFEND THIER FAITH FROM ATTACK

It's an interesting debate, but is more suited to another forum such as Humanities. This forum is mainly for discussion of the Islamic faith, proseltyzing is not allowed. Advising a potential revert to "get an education" instead of embracing Islam can also considered to be an attack, both on the poster and Islam, and neither is allowed.

SubjectSean

Shinto wrote: »

A belief should only exist if there's some evidence to support it. Not one claim that religous people make has any supporting evidence. Please tell me if there is some? I'm a reasonable person, i will change my opinion when i see some evidence.

I'm honestly interested in your opinions. I genuinely am.

The meme for God is an inevitable product of sentient consciousness . In a highly ordered and complex universe where sentient consciousness is the most complex product of an inevitable chain of events then significance can be placed on this phenomenon especially given that it will become capable of producing still more complex copies of itself. We cannot reduce our thinking about consciousness to that of any other observable phenomenon. Because of its existence many have the gut feeling the universe was designed to evolve. Your position is that nothing caused the universe to happen it just happened and that's that. This is all just a big accident to you no doubt. How can this be reasonable? The order in the universe does not look like an accident.

Hobbes

please refer to infronts comments above. thanks.

normar

irishconvert wrote: »

I am an Irish guy in his late 20's. ......... Do you think I should wait until a time when I no longer drink alcohol before I convert?

Thanks for listening.

The Prohibition of alcohol in Islam is introduced progressively. It is described variously as one of the pleasures of paradise awaiting the good beliver. It is also described as a Wholesome drink, then alcohol is prohibited at prayers and finally it is prohibited outright.


Al-Nahl (16) 67
And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.



Muhammad (47) 15
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink;……

Al Nisa (4) 43
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,-


Al-Ma’idah (5) 90
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.


To the rational mind how can “rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink;…“ a promise awaiting those in paradise be an evil on earth. How can wine described as a “ wholesome drink ” suddenly turn out to be an abomination.

These are all verses in the Qur’an and they describe alcohol differently at different stages. You can take what you like from them. An all knowing god would have known from the beginning that alcohol was “an abomination”, and that would be that, no equivocation about it. Are we to take it that the later “revelations” somehow take priority over earlier ones.

Form a rational humanistic viewpoint, this is just one issue among many that contradict each other and it is common in all revealed religious texts.

There is no mention of drugs or tobacco in the Qur’an because they were unknown to man at the time of Muhammad. One would imagine that an all knowing god would have mentioned them by name because of the devastation they leave in their wake. But this did not happen and the use of tobacco especially is widespread in the Islamic World along with the prevalence of lung cancer.

So Irish-convert you can make up your own mind as to which verse you wish to believe or accept. Of course Muslims will say that this is only a translation of the Qur’an and to find out the real true meaning you must become fluent in Arabic. So good luck with that too.

Shinto

Ok 'Infront'...i will take my debate elsewhere to a more suitable forum room.

I would have liked to have responded to SubjectSean's point about the creation of the universe having a designer, but to respond may be deemed going off topic and i wouldn't want anyone to think im attacking them. I genuinely wouldn't want to offend anyone....[that tends to make people even more faithfull to their beliefs].

Yes Wes, you're right about Hitchens on that point. I would disagree with Hitchens about the war too.

So i'll say goodbye to this Islam forum and wish all you people the very best of luck.

Pity i didnt get a response from the Irish man wishing to convert but c'est la vie so what can you do. Au revoir.

the_new_mr

Just in a quick response to normar's response, you put the answer right at the top of your post:

normar wrote:

The Prohibition of alcohol in Islam is introduced progressively.

God knows how hard it can be for someone to give up the drink... especially in a society that drinks it as easily as it does water (as pagan Saudi Arabia was at the time).

Instead of being a weak point as you attempt to point out, it actually shows it's one of Islam's strong points. Logic, reason and a practical approach to things.

As for the drugs etc, Approach not prayers with a mind befogged cover it pretty well I would think. One rule in Islamic jurisprudence is the likening of something to something else. So, if something is similar to alcohol in many ways then it should be prohibited too for the same reasons.

I know for a fact that a fatwa (religious ruling) for a person who is a drug addict is to be weaned off of it progressively to prevent dangerous withdrawal symptoms.

CaptainNemo

the_new_mr wrote: »

Must you use that avatar captain nemo? I think people would appreciate it if you didn't.

Prohibitions against representations of South Park?

normar

the_new_mr wrote: »

Instead of being a weak point as you attempt to point out, it actually shows it's one of Islam's strong points. Logic, reason and a practical approach to things.

I know for a fact that a fatwa (religious ruling) for a person who is a drug addict is to be weaned off of it progressively to prevent dangerous withdrawal symptoms.

Your response does not answer any of the important theological questions I raised about Islam as a revealed religion. But maybe this is my fault for not making it clear enough. It is an important question so please let me rephrase it.

Alcohol is described variously in the Qur'an.. ( the immutable words of Allah or god) as follows:

Al-Nahl (16) 67
And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.



Muhammad (47) 15
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink;……

Al Nisa (4) 43
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,-


Al-Ma’idah (5) 90
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.


Allah or god is believed to be a being who is both Omnipotent and Omniscient. Having all knowledge and all power. My question is how can it be that something which Allah or god describes as " of Satan's handwork " here on earth, be at the same time in heaven something which is described in such glowing terms as " rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink " and also as " wholesome drink ".

If it is " of Satan's handwork " how can it be at the same time a reward of heaven? These are mutually exclusive positions to have, and render comprehension impossible. And I'm sorry but I'm not the type of person who " hears and obeys ", as you said you were yourself in the locked stickey above.

Further if it is "of Satan's handwork " now then it always was. Did Allah or god get it wrong, or did he change his mind? If he changed his mind in relation to this will he do so again on another issue?



You mentioned fatwas.
I know for a fact of another fatwa (Islamic religious ruling). It calls for the murder of a British citizen, Salman Rushdie, who is not a muslim, for the crime of exercising freedom of thought, freedom of speech, in writing a book.

One last question please. It arises from the immutable word of Allah or god in the Qur'an.

AN-NISA (WOMEN)

004.034
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


Thus the all powerful, all knowing Allah or god, permits the beating of women. But how lightly is lightly? ( Some translations do not even have the word lightly placed in brackets in the quotation). Since lightly for one man can mean something very different for another can you guide us on this issue? Would we be permitted to beat our wives around the face or just thump her in the belly. Would I be allowed to beat my wife and break her bones?
It makes no mention of not beating her when she is pregnant so one can assume it is ok too so long as the beating is "light".

These are the words of Allah or god and for a Muslim cannot be trifiled with. They cannot be over-ruled by any mortal.They are fixed and immutable.

Me I believe them to be abhorrant, but maybe your answers will help me see the light of this Revealed Muslim religion.

Then everyone can make up their own mind.

Medina

normar wrote: »

If it is " of Satan's handwork " how can it be at the same time a reward of heaven? These are mutually exclusive positions to have, and render comprehension impossible. And I'm sorry but I'm not the type of person who " hears and obeys ", as you said you were yourself in the locked stickey above.

Further if it is "of Satan's handwork " now then it always was. Did Allah or god get it wrong, or did he change his mind? If he changed his mind in relation to this will he do so again on another issue?

Hi Normar
In the Qur'an Allah subhana wa ta'ala explains that the difference between the drink in Paradise and alcohol on earth as we know it:
(Also just on a note: The words in my post and your post are not the words of Allah, they are the translation of the words of Allah)

037.045
YUSUFALI: Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain,
037.046
YUSUFALI: Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof),
037.047
YUSUFALI: Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom

056.017
YUSUFALI: Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),
056.018
YUSUFALI: With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:
056.019
YUSUFALI: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication:


With regard to your question on beating, I will respond tomorrow please God as I am gathering the verses and hadith to show that beating is not condoned. It may be worth mentioning that some scholars have interpreted that word to mean separate also although in nearly all translations it is translated as 'beat'. The Prophet peace be upon him did not condone beating women. He actually advised his own daughter against marriage to a particular man because that man beat his wives. Anyways I will come back to you on this one

AckwelFoley

There are some Muslim Nations / cultures that do the irish thing and turn a blind eye to the drinking rule, i think Kazakistan is one of them.

However of course, you as yousaid yourself you wont be a devit muslim if you dont abstain.

Have you choosen an Islamic name yet or is it somthing thats given to you without choice?

Are you in a relationship, and what or how do you think this will effect you/her in this way, now oor in the future.

I know id never become a muslim, i simply dont have the faith or the disipline to be one. But if this is what you want and makes you more content in life, good luck.

BuffyBot

Have you choosen an Islamic name yet or is it somthing thats given to you without choice?

You don't have to change your name if you don't want to, unless by some bizarre stroke of luck you were called something pretty offensive.

AckwelFoley

ah, ok i thought you needed to change your name to an Islamic name like that American singer did about 20 years ago.. Yusuf Islam, better known as Cat Stevens.

BuffyBot

No, it's entirely personal choice

Kotek Besar

snyper wrote: »

ah, ok i thought you needed to change your name to an Islamic name like that American singer did about 20 years ago.. Yusuf Islam, better known as Cat Stevens.

Better known as? In what sense? Also, Yusuf Islam is British, not American.

the_new_mr

I think he innocently means better known as in the sense that more people know who Cat Stevens is than Yusuf Islam. Don't be so jumpy

I think Medina has already adequately answered some of Normar's points and will proceed to answer the others soon

Kotek Besar

the_new_mr wrote: »

I think he innocently means better known as in the sense that more people know who Cat Stevens is than Yusuf Islam. Don't be so jumpy

Ah, fair enough then.

Medina

Apologies if this is long, but I felt its so important to provide evidence that Islam does not condone beating women as its one of the most missunderstood things.

First of all, the only evidence that beating is allowed is in a single Quranic verse. This is most often translated to English as follows:

(4:34) [...]as for those women on whose part ye fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adriboo) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

The key to the problem is the mistranslation of the two key words nushuz and adriboo. Some of the possible meanings for both the words, according to the lexicon,3 are given below. Again, the appropriate meaning will depend on the context of the verse.

Nushuz: Animosity, hostility, rebellion, ill-treatment, discord; violation of marital duties on the part of either husband or wife.

Adriboo (root: daraba): to beat, to strike, to hit, to separate, to part.

In the context of the above verse the most appropriate meaning for nushuz is 'marital discord' (ill-will, animosity etc), and for adriboo is 'to separate' or 'to part'. Otherwise, it is inviting the likelihood of a divorce without any reconciliation procedure. Such a step would blatantly contravene the Qur'anic guidance shown in verse 4:35 below. Therefore, a more accurate and consistent translation of the above verse would be:

(4:34) [...]as for those women whose animosity or ill-will you have reason to fear, then leave them alone in bed, and then separate; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek a way against them.

The separation could be temporary or permanent depending on the reconciliation procedure. Such as construction is legitimate within the terms of the language and fits in very well with the divorce procedure outlined in the Qur'an (see 8.5).

The verse following the above verse gives further weight to the above translation.

(4:35) And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and the wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware.

Added weight to the meanings outlined above is given by verse 4:128 quoted below. Here, in the case of a man, the same word nushuz is used, but it is rendered as 'ill-treatment' as against 'rebellion' in the case of a woman as shown earlier in the traditional translation of verse 4:34. One find oneself asking whether since the ill-treatment is on the part of the husband, a process of reconciliation is here to be encouraged!

(4:128) If a wife fears ill-treatment (nushuz) or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best[...]

This, obviously, is a double standard and the only way to reconcile the meanings of the two verses, in the contexts they are being used, is to accept the meaning of adriboo as: 'to separate' or to 'part'. In this connection I would like to refer the reader to an excellent article by Rachael Tibbet from which I quote:

(a) Qur'anic commentators and translators experience problems with the term Adribu in the Qur'an not just in this verse but in others, as it is used in different contexts in ways which appear ambiguous and open to widely different translations into English. 'Daraba' can be translated in more than a hundred different ways.

(b) The translation of adribu as 'to strike' in this particular verse (4:34) is founded upon nothing more than:

(i) The authority of hadiths (Abu Daud 2141 and Mishkat Al-Masabih 0276) that this is what Adribu means in this context.

(ii) The prejudices and environment of the early commentators of the Qur'an which led them to assume that 'to strike', given the overall context of the verse, was the most likely interpretation of the many possible interpretations of adribu.

Unfortunately 4:34 is extremely abused by many of the so-called "Muslim" men in the world. While disregarding their own obligations and their own righteousness, these men only focus on the third step of handling this difficult condition as described in 4:34, skip the first two necessary steps and give themselves the excuse to beat their wives. They find support for their misguided and biased views, and for treating their spouses unjustly, in the fabrications of the so called Hadith and Sunna. They thus misrepresent the true Islam (Submission), and divert people from this perfect and just religion for all.


If one takes a holistic look at Islam and its teachings it is clear that good relations between spouses are encouraged, suppression of one's anger is a very important lesson and men are repeatedly advised to treat their wives well.

Some evidences for the good treatment of spouses:

[Quran 30:21] Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.

[Quran 4:19] O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit what the women leave behind, against their will. You shall not force them to give up anything you had given them, unless they commit a proven adultery. You shall treat them nicely. If you dislike them, you may dislike something wherein GOD has placed a lot of good.

Even in divorce a wife should be treated honourably:
[Quran2:229] Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD's law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD's law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD's laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD's laws are the unjust.


Hadith on the matters:

The Prophet said: Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good. (Sahih Muslim)

The Prophet said: Indeed Allah is gentle and loves gentleness and gives due to gentleness that which he does not give to harshness (Sahih ibn Majah, Sahih ibn Hibban)

The Prophet said: The best of you is the one who is best to his own family and I am the best of you towards my family (Sahih At-Tirmidhi, Sahih ibn Majah)

The Prophet said: The strong man is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)

The Prophet said: How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Sahih Bukhari)

Hazrat Iyas bin Abdullah [radhiallaahu anhu] has narrated that the Holy Prophet [sallallaahu alyhi wasallam], while delivering a sermon said: Do not beat the maids of Allah, because beating women is not desirable. When the Holy Prophet prohibits something, the act becomes totally unlawful for one who heard the prohibition direct from the Holy Prophet [sallallaahu alyhi wasallam]. Now it is not lawful for him in any circumstances to beat women. (Abu Dawud)

irishconvert

the_new_mr wrote: »

What's news by the way irishconvert?

Sorry for the lack of updates, have been real busy with work.

Well I have almost stopped drinking and went to the Mosque (for the first time) and prayed on Eid :-). Will probably take the Shahada in the next few weeks.

Shinto wrote: »

Back to the Irish man considering converting to Islam....i'd like to hear your response as well.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking me?? You believe there is no God, I believe there is. I can't prove there is a God and you can't prove there is not one. There is little point in us getting into a debate about it.

irishconvert

benifa wrote: »

Wa'Salam irishconvert,

I know exactly what you're going through. I'm a convert myself. I'm a British convert muslim, living in Ireland. (do you think I'm popular ). Just joking. But seriously, I do know how you feel. I also stopped drinking, slowly. I converted maybe 2 or 3 years ago, and stopped drinking completely only about 6 months ago. Now, I'm not saying that it's a good idea to follow in my footsteps, but this is was what I did: Basically, my wife and I concentrated on spending a lot of time together, "quality time" I suppose, going out for a meal, whatever really. Just things that don't involve drinking. With time you just don't miss it. It's not "the done thing" anymore. It's also about the company you keep I suppose. I have a lot more muslim friends now. So stands to reason, take yourself out of the situation where there's drink - and you won't drink. That said, I've by no means lost contact with, or stopped seeing my non-muslim friends. My best mate in England who I went to school with is still my best mate. We still meet up when we can, and it's all good. He'll have a pint, I'll have a coke, and that is now the norm and I don't notice the difference. Now I wouldn't think of drinking. It's just not part of my routine any more. I'm not a scholar (by any means), and I can't give you any better advice than the excellent other posters on this thread have given. I just want to share with you what I did. God knows what is in your heart, remember that.

Thanks for that reply Benifa, only saw it now, sorry for the late reply. Just wondering why you decided to convert and how did your family & friends take it. Is your wife Muslim? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to answer on the forum. And if you don't want to answer at all no worries :-)

AngryHippie

Boston wrote: »

Even non-Alcoholic beer contains trace amounts of alcohol.

Though not really enough to intoxicate, unless you are guilty of some form of masochistic gluttony, SO I think you'd be okay on a technicality there, but then again, Do you want to rely on a technicality in the eyes of God ?

Kotek Besar

irishconvert wrote: »

Thanks for that reply Benifa, only saw it now, sorry for the late reply. Just wondering why you decided to convert and how did your family & friends take it. Is your wife Muslim? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to answer on the forum. And if you don't want to answer at all no worries :-)

No bother at all irishconvert..

I would not have converted / reverted had it not been for my wife being a Muslim, put it that way. I converted in Singapore at the Darul Arqam, Singapore. It's very regulated (quite typical of Singapore ) - I had to go on a 12 week course to learn, question and understand the basics of Islam, before being allowed to say the Shahadah officially and receive my conversion certificate. And question I did. In fact, I must have given the lecturers some grilling, looking back . Still, there is no compulsion in religion and God wants us to question things, so as to understand fully.

As for my parents back home in England, my Dad, at least, is quite religious. He's a Catholic. Yes, an English Catholic . Catholicism being so similar to Islam (probably, in fact, the religion most similar to Islam), I simply explained, briefly but clearly, the similarities between the religions of Christianity and Islam. How both religions consider Jesus to be God's messenger and spirit, his birth being miraculous and his mother the virgin Mary. The prohibition of pork and the reasons why. We amazed each other really, going through it all. Oh, and the movie The Message was also very useful. I especially love the part when the Christian King of Abyssinia welcomes the Prophet and his companions, saving them from persecution by the Meccans. There is an emotional moment where both the Christians and Muslims are overcome, and the King says, "what Jesus Christ says, and what your Mohamed says, is like two rays from the same lamp", and later, "the difference between us and you, is no thicker than this line" [draw line in sand with stick].

My folks are absolutely fine with my choices, and I think are perhaps secretly happy. My Dad used to drink too much, as did my Grandfather and my Great-Grandfather. So, needless to say that little "hereditary" trait has been nipped in the bud! Also, I'm a much calmer person than I used to be, insya-Allah. In a nut shell, I think they appreciate that my conversion and acceptance of Islam is a blessing for me, which is true of course. Hey, you never know, they might even decide they want to convert themselves some day!

God bless.

AckwelFoley

What do your friends of you converting?

Do they support you?

Im just trying to see it from my perspective if as a born and bred Irishman of catholic extraction were to become a muslim how friends would react. I know its not one of those decisions you think about- that is wheather your friends care or not, but im just somewhat interested.

irishconvert

snyper wrote: »

What do your friends of you converting?

Do they support you?

Im just trying to see it from my perspective if as a born and bred Irishman of catholic extraction were to become a muslim how friends would react. I know its not one of those decisions you think about- that is wheather your friends care or not, but im just somewhat interested.

I haven't told them yet.

DinoBot

irishconvert wrote: »

I haven't told them yet.

irishconvert,

If its not too much of a personal question can I ask what was the main reason for wanting to convert. I know there may be many, but if you had to list your top three.

D

the_new_mr

irishconvert wrote:

Sorry for the lack of updates, have been real busy with work.

Well I have almost stopped drinking and went to the Mosque (for the first time) and prayed on Eid :-). Will probably take the Shahada in the next few weeks.

Great news!!! Don't worry about the news being late. Better late than never is what I always say Very glad to hear this.

Jazak Allah khair Medina for the post. May Allah reward you.

happybee

As for my parents back home in England, my Dad, at least, is quite religious. He's a Catholic. Yes, an English Catholic . Catholicism being so similar to Islam (probably, in fact, the religion most similar to Islam), I simply explained, briefly but clearly, the similarities between the religions of Christianity and Islam. How both religions consider Jesus to be God's messenger and spirit, his birth being miraculous and his mother the virgin Mary. The prohibition of pork and the reasons why. We amazed each other really, going through it all. Oh, and the movie The Message was also very useful. I especially love the part when the Christian King of Abyssinia welcomes the Prophet and his companions, saving them from persecution by the Meccans. There is an emotional moment where both the Christians and Muslims are overcome, and the King says, "what Jesus Christ says, and what your Mohamed says, is like two rays from the same lamp", and later, "the difference between us and you, is no thicker than this line" [draw line in sand with stick].

Interesting thought here: my partner is Muslim,and even though my family are Catholic,they are absolutely non-practicing and generally smirk at any "Bible Bashers" or anyone remotely religious.I think this is partly due to the fact that they had religion rammed down their throats in the 50's.
But someone actually said to me,which made a lot of sense,that had they been practicing/believing Catholics,then they would have a lot more of an understanding should I choose to convert to Islam! Hows that for madness?! Your post there just reminded me of it!

normar

Medina wrote: »

Hi Normar

(Also just on a note: The words in my post and your post are not the words of Allah, they are the translation of the words of Allah)

What I take from what you say above is that it is pointless for any person who is not fluent in Arabic to discuss the Qu'ran. We are only using translated words and not the " words of Allah" And because of this we can never hope to understand the real " words of Allah "

I don't accept this at all. This is just another way of muddying the waters against anyone who would argue against the "revealed " religion of Islam. You are effectively saying to fully understand the Qu'ran we must learn Arabic.


On the issue of alcohol...

Medina wrote: »

037.045
YUSUFALI: Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain,
037.046
YUSUFALI: Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof),
037.047
YUSUFALI: Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom

056.017
YUSUFALI: Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),
056.018
YUSUFALI: With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:
056.019
YUSUFALI: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication:

I do not know what this " clear-flowing fountain " liquid is. Maybe it's water - maybe not.

But by name the Qu'ran and Allah does mention Wine.


Muhammad (47) 15
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink;……


There is no equivocation. This is wine he is talking about. It is available in " the Garden ". There are " rivers of Wine " and " it is a joy to those who drink ".

But on earth it is the " work of Satan ".


So like all "revealed " religions it contains contradictions heaped upon contradictions, and you can pick out of it what you want and what you dont want.

The very notion that any Omnipotent and Omniscient deity would set out to provide guidance to all mankind but only in one language, which by your logic quoted above then prevents anyone who can't speak the language form perceving his ture message is so absurd and to be an attack on my critical faculties.

As to the beating of women.....

Medina wrote: »

The key to the problem is the mistranslation of the two key words nushuz and adriboo. Some of the possible meanings for both the words, according to the lexicon,3 are given below. Again, the appropriate meaning will depend on the context of the verse.

Please allow me to quote the Qu'ran as translated into english and published with the agreement of the Islamic world and which is available in any bookstore in Ireland.

AN-NISA (WOMEN)

004.034
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).



Again there is no equivocation. You can beat your women




You must accept that this represents the Qu'ran in english. Otherwise it becomes a totally pointless exercise in samantics.. There are no other translations of this verse. It's context is clear You may beat your women. And in brackets is the word "lightly".

But what about Irishconvert on these issues. What does he/she think? After all he/she is thinking of embracing it.



Normar.

BuffyBot

What I take from what you say above is that it is pointless for any person who is not fluent in Arabic to discuss the Qu'ran. We are only using translated words and not the " words of Allah" And because of this we can never hope to understand the real " words of Allah "

I don't accept this at all. This is just another way of muddying the waters against anyone who would argue against the "revealed " religion of Islam. You are effectively saying to fully understand the Qu'ran we must learn Arabic.

I wouldn't take that reading from what was said at all.

If you look at different translations you will see differences between them. Whether it be the Qu'ran or a novel by Dickens, the process of translation from one language to another will always involve a certain differential depending on who has done the translation - therefore rendering the arguments and understanding of some people to be skewed by the 'errors' that occur in a translated text.

I think the main caution for anyone is to remember that Islam only accepts one version of the Qu'ran as authorative, and that is the version in Arabic.

Please allow me to quote the Qu'ran as translated into english and published with the agreement of the Islamic world and which is available in any bookstore in Ireland.

The entire 'Islamic world' has agreeed upon one translation and one interpretation?