Want to convert but...

irishconvert

Assalam Alaikum everyone.

I am an Irish guy in his late 20's. I have almost decided that Islam is the right religion for me. I believe that there is one God and Muhammad is his messenger. But...there is one thing causing a problem, I drink alcohol. I have cut down quite a bit and drink a few pints approx once a month but I know I shouldn't be doing this. Because of this I have not formally converted, i.e. not made the declaration. Do you think I should wait until a time when I no longer drink alcohol before I convert? Or will making the step to convert and go to Mosque give me the kick up the backside I need to finally stop drinking?

Thanks for listening.

mmalaka

Congratulations and welcome to Islam world

I think u should do the step and convert, and in the Mosque for sure they would know how to help u to stop drinking

again Congratulations

Poco Loco

I am not a Muslim, so please pardon my ignorance if it appears I am being!

Can I ask - why does abstaining from alcohol make you a 'better' Muslim? Could you not be a devout Muslim and still drink once in a while? From my knowledge, Islam disapproves of alcohol as it can bring with it evil/wrong actions and thoughts. I accept this point. But what harm can one glass of wine with dinner do? Really? This isn't a challenge or me looking for an argument - I really just want to see what the logic is behind it.

OP - Do you not feel you would be Muslim until you gave up alcohol?

blackthorn

Wa alaikum asalam irishconvert

I think it would be worth your while to go the mosque (@ Clonskeagh maybe?) before you formally convert and have a chat with the Imam there and talk about this with him. Hopefully, that will make things easier for you.

DinoBot

irishconvert wrote:

Assalam Alaikum everyone.

I am an Irish guy in his late 20's. I have almost decided that Islam is the right religion for me. I believe that there is one God and Muhammad is his messenger. But...there is one thing causing a problem, I drink alcohol. I have cut down quite a bit and drink a few pints approx once a month but I know I shouldn't be doing this. Because of this I have not formally converted, i.e. not made the declaration. Do you think I should wait until a time when I no longer drink alcohol before I convert? Or will making the step to convert and go to Mosque give me the kick up the backside I need to finally stop drinking?

Thanks for listening.

I think you will face many challenges along your path as an Irish convert, drinking being one of them. But that said, why not convert and work on that aspect ?

I find it interesting that you feel Islam is correct, there is one God and Muhammad is his messenger and what it teaches is true, but somehow you feel because you have not formally converted you think its okay to drink ??
Do the rules of Islam not apply to you yet because you have not formally converted ?
Do you feel you will not be held accountable for any sin you commit until you convert ?

C_Breeze

Dont bother converting and just live your chosen lifestyle

BuffyBot

Do the rules of Islam not apply to you yet because you have not formally converted ?
Do you feel you will not be held accountable for any sin you commit until you convert ?

I think if one is to be technical about it, no.

Good advice from others though, go speak to someone. From what I believe though it's generally held to be better to revert and work on your issues after that than put it off because of them

DinoBot

BuffyBot wrote:

I think if one is to be technical about it, no.

I know where your coming from but with that logic you are better NOT converting and do it on your death bed

the_new_mr

Wa Alaykom Al Salam wa Rahmat Allah wa Barkatu

Hello irishconvert and welcome to the Islam forum. Allow me to congratulate you on your decision and may God guide you, me and everyone to the right path.

Sorry for the delay in my answer. I saw your post yesterday and was just about to reply but I thought I'd better ask a scholar first to see what he had to say about it before carrying the responsibility of giving you an incorrect opinion.

Anyway, the scholar confirmed my original opinion which was already mentioned here by mmalaka and that is to go ahead and embrace Islam and then, God willing, you'll give up the drink.

It's worth remembering that alcohol was not actually forbidden in one go during the early years of Islam and it was a gradual thing. Having said that, it's also worth remembering that upon embracing Islam, all your bad deeds are wiped out and you start your account of bad deeds anew from the moment you say the shahada so try your best to give it up as soon as possible and, God willing, you'll be able to.

Hope to hear from you again soon and, if it's not too much trouble or too personal, I'd love to hear the details about how you came to your decision.

Let me just say that it makes me so happy to hear of stories like this. Really makes my day/week/month

the_new_mr

To answer your question in brief Poco Loco, Muslims believe that God has forbidden alcohol and so therefore we should abstain from it. A verse from the Quran:

Al-Baqara:219
"They will ask thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." And they will ask thee as to what they should spend [in God's cause]. Say: "Whatever you can spare." In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might reflect"

Al-Maida:90-91
O you who have attained to faith! Intoxicants, and games of chance, and idolatrous practices, and the divining of the future are but a loathsome evil of Satan's doing:' shun it, then, so that you might attain to a happy state!; By means of intoxicants and games of chance Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not, then, desist?'

God knows, none of us are angels but we should all make the best effort not to sin especially when it comes to major sins.

DinoBot wrote:

I know where your coming from but with that logic you are better NOT converting and do it on your death bed

I know you're not being completely serious about it but it's worth mentioning that that kind of conversion is not really okay. The Pharaoh who chased after Moses (peace be upon him) in the red sea and was subsequently drowned was stubborn to the very end until the moment when he realised that death was upon him.

Yunus:90-92
And We brought the children of Israel across the sea; and thereupon Pharaoh and his hosts pursued them with vehement insolence and tyranny, until [they were overwhelmed by the waters of the sea. And] when he was about to drown, [Pharaoh] exclaimed: "I have come to believe that there is no deity save Him in whom the children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender themselves unto Him!; [But God said:] "Now? -when ever before this thou hast been rebelling [against Us], and hast been among those who spread corruption?; [Nay,] but today We shall save only thy body, so that thou mayest be a [warning] sign unto those who will come after thee: for, behold, a good many people are heedless of Our messages!""

I'm not necessarily saying that if you convert on your death bed then it won't be accepted (granted, the Pharaoh was a tyrant) but, if someone is already convinced, why delay?

irishconvert

Poco Loco wrote: »

I am not a Muslim, so please pardon my ignorance if it appears I am being!

Can I ask - why does abstaining from alcohol make you a 'better' Muslim?

I suppose so, another way of looking at it is you are a bad Muslim if you drink alcohol

Poco Loco wrote: »

Could you not be a devout Muslim and still drink once in a while?

Nope!

Poco Loco wrote: »

From my knowledge, Islam disapproves of alcohol as it can bring with it evil/wrong actions and thoughts. I accept this point. But what harm can one glass of wine with dinner do?

One drink leads to another as they say! And many drink leads to trouble! Have you ever walked around Temple Bar or any town in Ireland late on a weekend evening. Look at all the trouble alcohol creates. Look at all the posts in the Personal Issues forum. Whenever anyone writes about cheates on their partner they always follow it up with "I was drunk" or something similar.

Poco Loco wrote: »

OP - Do you not feel you would be Muslim until you gave up alcohol?

No, I feel I am a Muslim already but I feel I would be a hypocrite if I formally converted yet was doing something which is so against Islam

DinoBot wrote: »

I think you will face many challenges along your path as an Irish convert, drinking being one of them. But that said, why not convert and work on that aspect ?

It is an option alright, one I am considering.

DinoBot wrote: »

I find it interesting that you feel Islam is correct, there is one God and Muhammad is his messenger and what it teaches is true, but somehow you feel because you have not formally converted you think its okay to drink ??
Do the rules of Islam not apply to you yet because you have not formally converted ?

That's not the way I feel, I feel that alcohol causes a lot more harm than good, but being an Irish man who has drank all this life, has friends & family who all drink, etc etc, it is very difficult to give it up altogether.

DinoBot wrote: »

Do you feel you will not be held accountable for any sin you commit until you convert ?

I think if I was to purposely put off converting so I could continue drinking then I would be commiting a sin. But that is not what I am doing, I don't feel it is right to formally convert while I am leading an unislamic way of life

the_new_mr wrote: »

Wa Alaykom Al Salam wa Rahmat Allah wa Barkatu

Hello irishconvert and welcome to the Islam forum. Allow me to congratulate you on your decision and may God guide you, me and everyone to the right path.

Thanks :-)

the_new_mr wrote: »

Sorry for the delay in my answer. I saw your post yesterday and was just about to reply but I thought I'd better ask a scholar first to see what he had to say about it before carrying the responsibility of giving you an incorrect opinion.

Anyway, the scholar confirmed my original opinion which was already mentioned here by mmalaka and that is to go ahead and embrace Islam and then, God willing, you'll give up the drink.

It's worth remembering that alcohol was not actually forbidden in one go during the early years of Islam and it was a gradual thing.

Yeah I am reading the Qur'an but haven't got to the part where alcohol is banned yet!

the_new_mr wrote: »

Having said that, it's also worth remembering that upon embracing Islam, all your bad deeds are wiped out and you start your account of bad deeds anew from the moment you say the shahada so try your best to give it up as soon as possible and, God willing, you'll be able to.

Hope to hear from you again soon and, if it's not too much trouble or too personal, I'd love to hear the details about how you came to your decision.

Let's just there was a woman involved!

the_new_mr wrote: »

Let me just say that it makes me so happy to hear of stories like this. Really makes my day/week/month

Eid Mubarak

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote:

One drink leads to another as they say!

No it doesn't, and she said one glass with dinner...


Anyway, good luck with your converting/reverting.

the_new_mr

Hi again irishconvert! Glad you came back. I was very curious to know how things progressed with you.

Whilst reading your post, I remembered a hadith (saying/tradition) of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him). It's one of the most famous ones. Here's a link.

The hadith mentions the difference between Al-Islam and Al-Iman. Personally, I think that as long as you truly believe that there is no god but God Himself and that Mohamed is His messenger then you are somehow being dishonest to your soul by not doing the final step.

Being a Muslim is not about being an angel. We all sin from time to time and we should all accept it. That doesn't excuse our actions but I just wanted to get that idea across because some people feel that when they become Muslim, they should have angelic-like qualities. Nobody's perfect. God knows I'm not. We all sin but we should also ask for God's forgiveness. With striving and effort, it is possible to make it so that you commit sins of less severity and less frequently and still ask for forgiveness for the sins that you do commit but it's a process and that has to be appreciated I think. Rome wasn't built in a day as they say

When alcohol was finally forbidden completely, the Muslims of the time had spent a considerable amount of time building in faith so that when it was finally prohibited, some people were able to do it easily enough. For example, Umar Ibn Al Khattab (one of the companions of the Prophet) upon hearing the verse forbidding alcohol:

Al-Maida:90-91
"O you who have attained to faith! Intoxicants, and games of chance, and idolatrous practices, and the divining of the future are but a loathsome evil of Satan's doing:' shun it, then, so that you might attain to a happy state!; By means of intoxicants and games of chance Satan seeks only to sow enmity and hatred among you, and to turn you away from the remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not, then, desist?"

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab was holding a bottle of wine and threw it to the ground shouting "I desist, I desist!"

I don't mean to make anyone feel guilty for not having faith as strong as that but you get the picture. It's about appreciating what's really important and getting the perspectives right.

I know that God understands your situation concerning alcohol and how you were brought in a culture such as that of Ireland where alcohol is part and parcel of the way of life. But you can be Irish and not drink. I am And it's worth noting that God really loves it when you give up something you like for His sake and its reward is huge.

So, we come back to the issue of why delaying something you already believe in? If the heart is convinced and the mind is at rest with it then only the tongue needs to finalise it.

Keep us posted!

orestes

I don't understand the problem man.

Instead of living your life in the way that a specific doctrine tells you, why don't you just live the way you feel and believe to be right? Do you believe that the odd drink now and again makes you a bad person? If so, then don't drink, but if not then why shouldn't you have a drink if you want one just because a specific belief system says you shouldn't?

the_new_mr

It's quite simple really. If you believe that the Quran is the literal word of God and you know that the Quran tells you not to drink alcohol then you feel that you shouldn't. Of course, none of us are angels and we all sin from time to time but we should try our best efforts not to and make it so that at least when we do sin, they're not major sins (like murder, adultery etc).

What's news by the way irishconvert?

estebancambias

Instead of living your life in the way that a specific doctrine tells you, why don't you just live the way you feel and believe to be right? Do you believe that the odd drink now and again makes you a bad person? If so, then don't drink, but if not then why shouldn't you have a drink if you want one just because a specific belief system says you shouldn't?

I'm Catholic, and this is a good but common question(s). It's not so much about morals(i.e I will never touch alcohol as I believe it is bad. Now nowhere in the bible is this said, but that does not mean I will convert to Muslim because of this. I believe in the teachings of the bible, this is what primarly matters)

Kotek Besar

Wa'Salam irishconvert,

I know exactly what you're going through. I'm a convert myself. I'm a British convert muslim, living in Ireland. (do you think I'm popular ). Just joking. But seriously, I do know how you feel. I also stopped drinking, slowly. I converted maybe 2 or 3 years ago, and stopped drinking completely only about 6 months ago. Now, I'm not saying that it's a good idea to follow in my footsteps, but this is was what I did: Basically, my wife and I concentrated on spending a lot of time together, "quality time" I suppose, going out for a meal, whatever really. Just things that don't involve drinking. With time you just don't miss it. It's not "the done thing" anymore. It's also about the company you keep I suppose. I have a lot more muslim friends now. So stands to reason, take yourself out of the situation where there's drink - and you won't drink. That said, I've by no means lost contact with, or stopped seeing my non-muslim friends. My best mate in England who I went to school with is still my best mate. We still meet up when we can, and it's all good. He'll have a pint, I'll have a coke, and that is now the norm and I don't notice the difference. Now I wouldn't think of drinking. It's just not part of my routine any more. I'm not a scholar (by any means), and I can't give you any better advice than the excellent other posters on this thread have given. I just want to share with you what I did. God knows what is in your heart, remember that.

Suff

Have you tried the non-Alcoholic beer? you can get Clausthaler, St. Pauli Non-Alcoholic, Cobra, Holsten or you can start on Erdinger which has %0.5 of alcohol. or you can try Barbican which is sold in most Indian shops in dublin and in the mosque.
try this link:
http://www.alcoholfree.co.uk/

Boston

Suff wrote: »

Have you tried the non-Alcoholic beer? you can get Clausthaler, St. Pauli Non-Alcoholic, Cobra, Holsten or you can start on Erdinger which has %0.5 of alchohol. or you can try Barbican which is sold in most Indian shops in dublin and in the mosque.
try this link:
http://www.alcoholfree.co.uk/

Even non-Alcoholic beer contains trace amounts of alcohol.

Suff

Boston wrote: »

Even non-Alcoholic beer contains trace amounts of alcohol.

That's true, they contain between %0.05 to %0.5. some of the above beers contains %0.0 like barbican. I dont know the authenticity of this: Orange and apple juice both have trace amounts of alcohol.

Boston

Suff wrote: »

That's true, they contain between %0.05 to %0.5. some of the above beers contains %0.0 like barbican. I dont know the authenticity of this: Orange and apple juice both have trace amounts of alcohol.

If some value is 0.04 or less then it is fully acceptable to call that 0.0 when rounded.

Rev Hellfire

Is the ban on Alcoholic consumption purely in relation to its use in a social context and with issue of inebriation in particular?

For example I assume (and have been informed) it is valid to use medication which has an alcoholic content when say prescribed by a doctor?
Is its use in cooking permitted in small volumes where there is no risk inebriation?

InFront

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Is the ban on Alcoholic consumption purely in relation to its use in a social context

Alcohol is also considered by some to be physically impure to touch. I'm not certain about that one personally, but if in doubt, the safest thing to do is just avoid. Alcohol swabs is one I'd like to know more about, however.

For example I assume (and have been informed) it is valid to use medication which has an alcoholic content when say prescribed by a doctor?

Not if there's another medication available which is just as good or better than the medication containing alcohol as far as I know.

Is its use in cooking permitted in small volumes where there is no risk inebriation?

No because presumably that would involve purchasing alcohol or supporting its sale. It's better just to avoid it altogether.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543948

CaptainNemo

Not sure why I'm poking my nose in here but unless I'm very much mistaken the adjurations from the Qu'ran that people have given here are against intoxication and the use of alcohol as an intoxicant, not against the substance itself or its use in for example medicines.

I am not Muslim but I've been in a religious movement with a very restricted diet and people used to tie themselves up in knots over whether or not a certain thing they were about to eat contained trace amounts of e.g. sugar or an animal product like rennet. After a while I realized that if you had to think very hard about whether or not something was forbidden and why, then it probably didn't matter too much.

Alcohol is a bit of a social epidemic in Ireland and England and other places and I can't disagree with any religion that tells its followers to avoid it. However I believe in the "spirit" of the law rather than the letter if you know what I mean...

BuffyBot

I'm very much mistaken the adjurations from the Qu'ran that people have given here are against intoxication and the use of alcohol as an intoxicant, not against the substance itself or its use in for example medicines.

Again, like most things, it varies on who you read. Some scholars interpret it as being 100% forbidden, and some have said it's ok in medications you don't consume etc.

the_new_mr

Good points from a lot of people.

We had a looooooong discussion about this in another thread a while back.

With respect to things like trace amounts of alcohol in foods and medicines, I think the following verse is relevant.

Al-Barara:185
"It was the month of Ramadan in which the Qur'an was [first] bestowed from on high as a guidance unto man and a self-evident proof of that guidance, and as the standard by which to discern the true from the false. Hence, whoever of you lives to see this month shall fast throughout it; but he that is ill, or on a journey, [shall fast instead for the same] number of other days. God wills that you shall have ease, and does not will you to suffer hardship; but [He desires] that you complete the number [of days required], and that you extol God for His having guided you aright, and that you render your thanks [unto Him]."

It's important to remember too that God rewards those who are patient.

Al-Imran: 135-136
"and who, when they have committed a shameful deed or have [otherwise] sinned against themselves, remember God and pray that their sins be forgiven - for who but God could forgive sins? - and do not knowingly persist in doing whatever [wrong] they may have done.; These it is who shall have as their reward forgiveness from their Sustainer, and gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide: and how excellent a reward for those who labour!"

And also to remember that, with every hardship, comes a relief.

Al-Sharh:5
"And, behold, with every hardship comes ease:"

the_new_mr

Must you use that avatar captain nemo? I think people would appreciate it if you didn't.

Shinto

There isn't a shred of scientific evidence for the existance of a magic man. Hundreds of years ago they were ignorant of germ theory....if someone died they said it must have been the will of the magic man. They were ignorant of plate techtonics....if the ground shook and killed people then it must have been the will of the magic man. A book written a few hundred years ago by a sheep farmer isn't worth the paper its written on.

My advice is for you to get an education....you seriously need to read some modern points of view ("the god delusion" by richard dawkins, "god is not great" by Christopher Hitchens, "the end of faith" by sam harris)...these books are much better than one written by ignorant sheep farmers from the middle ages.

Of course, simple minds will proclaim these books to be great...but the 5 year old kids i teach also proclaim that the "teletubbies" is a great TV programme. Simple minds....simple books.

Humans have a great ability to argue petty little points till the cows go home...look at the bigger picture and question Religion and Spirituality itself.

Kotek Besar

Shinto wrote: »

There isn't a shred of scientific evidence for the existance of a magic man. Hundreds of years ago they were ignorant of germ theory....if someone died they said it must have been the will of the magic man. They were ignorant of plate techtonics....if the ground shook and killed people then it must have been the will of the magic man. A book written a few hundred years ago by a sheep farmer isn't worth the paper its written on.

My advice is for you to get an education....you seriously need to read some modern points of view ("the god delusion" by richard dawkins, "god is not great" by Christopher Hitchens, "the end of faith" by sam harris)...these books are much better than one written by ignorant sheep farmers from the middle ages.

Of course, simple minds will proclaim these books to be great...but the 5 year old kids i teach also proclaim that the "teletubbies" is a great TV programme. Simple minds....simple books.

Humans have a great ability to argue petty little points till the cows go home...look at the bigger picture and question Religion and Spirituality itself.

Unsurprising to read this, judging by your location.

the_syco

irishconvert wrote: »

Whenever anyone writes about cheates on their partner they always follow it up with "I was drunk" or something similar.

When one is weak, they do stupid things. When one is weak, they blame everything but themselves. Weak people will not be able to say "no" when they've had enough, but will keep on drinking.

benifa wrote: »

Unsurprising to read this, judging by your location.

Care to explain? Their soul, not their location, decides ones fate.

Kotek Besar

the_syco wrote: »

..Care to explain? Their soul, not their location, decides ones fate.

Yes, and I agree with you. What I meant was, that sometimes living among those who don't believe in God can cause people to come out with awful things like this. I've seen it happen before. Anyway, I hope God will forgive my writing that, if it came across in the wrong way. Also, I hope that Shinto is pardoned and led to the right path.

Shinto

When Benifa mentioned Geography he/she actually raised a valid point (unwittingly i'm sure). If a child is born in a religious country, it will most likely grow up believing in that country's magic man, the child will be raised to not question the beliefs of that society. That is true, and Benifa is right on that.

But 2+2=4 no matter what part of the world you come from. That is...Maths, Science, and Reason are the same irregardless of geography. Obviously there is always differing views within the scientific community, but that's how science develops...through questioning, peer review, and repeated experimentation.
But as Benifa pointed out (unwittingly im sure), religious beliefs are generally dependent on where you're born (nearly always dependent on your familys beliefs). If i'm born in Israel, i'll most likely be a Jew, USA...christain...Middle East....muslim, India...hindu etc. Can you imagine a world where reason and science differed depending on geography? Can you imagine different regions having different answers to the simple 2+2 maths problem. It's therefore important that an adult realises that their religion is Arbitrary.

For those of you who dont know what "arbitrary" means...one dictionary definition is "Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle."

A belief should only exist if there's some evidence to support it. Not one claim that religous people make has any supporting evidence. Please tell me if there is some? I'm a reasonable person, i will change my opinion when i see some evidence.

I'm honestly interested in your opinions. I genuinely am.

Back to the Irish man considering converting to Islam....i'd like to hear your response as well.

wes

Shinto wrote: »

"god is not great" by Christopher Hitchens,

The same Hitchens who still supports the illegal aggressive Iraq war? I may not agree with the 2 other authors, but I can respect there opinions, but someone who is such a vocal supporter of theft of natural resources and the war to steal them doesn't deserve it.

InFront

Shinto welcome to the forum. Please read the forum charter before posting on this topic again. I'd particularly refer you to the part where it says:

Forum Charter
Let me make something absolutly clear in this forum. It is for the open discussion of the religon for those who are following it or for those who may have honest questions about it. IT IS NOT FOR YOU TO VENT, OR FOR MUSLIMS TO HAVE TO DEFEND THIER FAITH FROM ATTACK

It's an interesting debate, but is more suited to another forum such as Humanities. This forum is mainly for discussion of the Islamic faith, proseltyzing is not allowed. Advising a potential revert to "get an education" instead of embracing Islam can also considered to be an attack, both on the poster and Islam, and neither is allowed.

SubjectSean

Shinto wrote: »

A belief should only exist if there's some evidence to support it. Not one claim that religous people make has any supporting evidence. Please tell me if there is some? I'm a reasonable person, i will change my opinion when i see some evidence.

I'm honestly interested in your opinions. I genuinely am.

The meme for God is an inevitable product of sentient consciousness . In a highly ordered and complex universe where sentient consciousness is the most complex product of an inevitable chain of events then significance can be placed on this phenomenon especially given that it will become capable of producing still more complex copies of itself. We cannot reduce our thinking about consciousness to that of any other observable phenomenon. Because of its existence many have the gut feeling the universe was designed to evolve. Your position is that nothing caused the universe to happen it just happened and that's that. This is all just a big accident to you no doubt. How can this be reasonable? The order in the universe does not look like an accident.

Hobbes

please refer to infronts comments above. thanks.

normar

irishconvert wrote: »

I am an Irish guy in his late 20's. ......... Do you think I should wait until a time when I no longer drink alcohol before I convert?

Thanks for listening.

The Prohibition of alcohol in Islam is introduced progressively. It is described variously as one of the pleasures of paradise awaiting the good beliver. It is also described as a Wholesome drink, then alcohol is prohibited at prayers and finally it is prohibited outright.


Al-Nahl (16) 67
And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.



Muhammad (47) 15
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink;……

Al Nisa (4) 43
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,-


Al-Ma’idah (5) 90
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.


To the rational mind how can “rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink;…“ a promise awaiting those in paradise be an evil on earth. How can wine described as a “ wholesome drink ” suddenly turn out to be an abomination.

These are all verses in the Qur’an and they describe alcohol differently at different stages. You can take what you like from them. An all knowing god would have known from the beginning that alcohol was “an abomination”, and that would be that, no equivocation about it. Are we to take it that the later “revelations” somehow take priority over earlier ones.

Form a rational humanistic viewpoint, this is just one issue among many that contradict each other and it is common in all revealed religious texts.

There is no mention of drugs or tobacco in the Qur’an because they were unknown to man at the time of Muhammad. One would imagine that an all knowing god would have mentioned them by name because of the devastation they leave in their wake. But this did not happen and the use of tobacco especially is widespread in the Islamic World along with the prevalence of lung cancer.

So Irish-convert you can make up your own mind as to which verse you wish to believe or accept. Of course Muslims will say that this is only a translation of the Qur’an and to find out the real true meaning you must become fluent in Arabic. So good luck with that too.

Shinto

Ok 'Infront'...i will take my debate elsewhere to a more suitable forum room.

I would have liked to have responded to SubjectSean's point about the creation of the universe having a designer, but to respond may be deemed going off topic and i wouldn't want anyone to think im attacking them. I genuinely wouldn't want to offend anyone....[that tends to make people even more faithfull to their beliefs].

Yes Wes, you're right about Hitchens on that point. I would disagree with Hitchens about the war too.

So i'll say goodbye to this Islam forum and wish all you people the very best of luck.

Pity i didnt get a response from the Irish man wishing to convert but c'est la vie so what can you do. Au revoir.

the_new_mr

Just in a quick response to normar's response, you put the answer right at the top of your post:

normar wrote:

The Prohibition of alcohol in Islam is introduced progressively.

God knows how hard it can be for someone to give up the drink... especially in a society that drinks it as easily as it does water (as pagan Saudi Arabia was at the time).

Instead of being a weak point as you attempt to point out, it actually shows it's one of Islam's strong points. Logic, reason and a practical approach to things.

As for the drugs etc, Approach not prayers with a mind befogged cover it pretty well I would think. One rule in Islamic jurisprudence is the likening of something to something else. So, if something is similar to alcohol in many ways then it should be prohibited too for the same reasons.

I know for a fact that a fatwa (religious ruling) for a person who is a drug addict is to be weaned off of it progressively to prevent dangerous withdrawal symptoms.

CaptainNemo

the_new_mr wrote: »

Must you use that avatar captain nemo? I think people would appreciate it if you didn't.

Prohibitions against representations of South Park?

normar

the_new_mr wrote: »

Instead of being a weak point as you attempt to point out, it actually shows it's one of Islam's strong points. Logic, reason and a practical approach to things.

I know for a fact that a fatwa (religious ruling) for a person who is a drug addict is to be weaned off of it progressively to prevent dangerous withdrawal symptoms.

Your response does not answer any of the important theological questions I raised about Islam as a revealed religion. But maybe this is my fault for not making it clear enough. It is an important question so please let me rephrase it.

Alcohol is described variously in the Qur'an.. ( the immutable words of Allah or god) as follows:

Al-Nahl (16) 67
And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.



Muhammad (47) 15
(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink;……

Al Nisa (4) 43
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,-


Al-Ma’idah (5) 90
O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.


Allah or god is believed to be a being who is both Omnipotent and Omniscient. Having all knowledge and all power. My question is how can it be that something which Allah or god describes as " of Satan's handwork " here on earth, be at the same time in heaven something which is described in such glowing terms as " rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink " and also as " wholesome drink ".

If it is " of Satan's handwork " how can it be at the same time a reward of heaven? These are mutually exclusive positions to have, and render comprehension impossible. And I'm sorry but I'm not the type of person who " hears and obeys ", as you said you were yourself in the locked stickey above.

Further if it is "of Satan's handwork " now then it always was. Did Allah or god get it wrong, or did he change his mind? If he changed his mind in relation to this will he do so again on another issue?



You mentioned fatwas.
I know for a fact of another fatwa (Islamic religious ruling). It calls for the murder of a British citizen, Salman Rushdie, who is not a muslim, for the crime of exercising freedom of thought, freedom of speech, in writing a book.

One last question please. It arises from the immutable word of Allah or god in the Qur'an.

AN-NISA (WOMEN)

004.034
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


Thus the all powerful, all knowing Allah or god, permits the beating of women. But how lightly is lightly? ( Some translations do not even have the word lightly placed in brackets in the quotation). Since lightly for one man can mean something very different for another can you guide us on this issue? Would we be permitted to beat our wives around the face or just thump her in the belly. Would I be allowed to beat my wife and break her bones?
It makes no mention of not beating her when she is pregnant so one can assume it is ok too so long as the beating is "light".

These are the words of Allah or god and for a Muslim cannot be trifiled with. They cannot be over-ruled by any mortal.They are fixed and immutable.

Me I believe them to be abhorrant, but maybe your answers will help me see the light of this Revealed Muslim religion.

Then everyone can make up their own mind.

Medina

normar wrote: »

If it is " of Satan's handwork " how can it be at the same time a reward of heaven? These are mutually exclusive positions to have, and render comprehension impossible. And I'm sorry but I'm not the type of person who " hears and obeys ", as you said you were yourself in the locked stickey above.

Further if it is "of Satan's handwork " now then it always was. Did Allah or god get it wrong, or did he change his mind? If he changed his mind in relation to this will he do so again on another issue?

Hi Normar
In the Qur'an Allah subhana wa ta'ala explains that the difference between the drink in Paradise and alcohol on earth as we know it:
(Also just on a note: The words in my post and your post are not the words of Allah, they are the translation of the words of Allah)

037.045
YUSUFALI: Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain,
037.046
YUSUFALI: Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof),
037.047
YUSUFALI: Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom

056.017
YUSUFALI: Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),
056.018
YUSUFALI: With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:
056.019
YUSUFALI: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication:


With regard to your question on beating, I will respond tomorrow please God as I am gathering the verses and hadith to show that beating is not condoned. It may be worth mentioning that some scholars have interpreted that word to mean separate also although in nearly all translations it is translated as 'beat'. The Prophet peace be upon him did not condone beating women. He actually advised his own daughter against marriage to a particular man because that man beat his wives. Anyways I will come back to you on this one

AckwelFoley

There are some Muslim Nations / cultures that do the irish thing and turn a blind eye to the drinking rule, i think Kazakistan is one of them.

However of course, you as yousaid yourself you wont be a devit muslim if you dont abstain.

Have you choosen an Islamic name yet or is it somthing thats given to you without choice?

Are you in a relationship, and what or how do you think this will effect you/her in this way, now oor in the future.

I know id never become a muslim, i simply dont have the faith or the disipline to be one. But if this is what you want and makes you more content in life, good luck.

BuffyBot

Have you choosen an Islamic name yet or is it somthing thats given to you without choice?

You don't have to change your name if you don't want to, unless by some bizarre stroke of luck you were called something pretty offensive.

AckwelFoley

ah, ok i thought you needed to change your name to an Islamic name like that American singer did about 20 years ago.. Yusuf Islam, better known as Cat Stevens.

BuffyBot

No, it's entirely personal choice

Kotek Besar

snyper wrote: »

ah, ok i thought you needed to change your name to an Islamic name like that American singer did about 20 years ago.. Yusuf Islam, better known as Cat Stevens.

Better known as? In what sense? Also, Yusuf Islam is British, not American.

the_new_mr

I think he innocently means better known as in the sense that more people know who Cat Stevens is than Yusuf Islam. Don't be so jumpy

I think Medina has already adequately answered some of Normar's points and will proceed to answer the others soon

Kotek Besar

the_new_mr wrote: »

I think he innocently means better known as in the sense that more people know who Cat Stevens is than Yusuf Islam. Don't be so jumpy

Ah, fair enough then.

Medina

Apologies if this is long, but I felt its so important to provide evidence that Islam does not condone beating women as its one of the most missunderstood things.

First of all, the only evidence that beating is allowed is in a single Quranic verse. This is most often translated to English as follows:

(4:34) [...]as for those women on whose part ye fear rebellion (nushuz), admonish them and banish them to beds apart, (and last) beat (adriboo) them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

The key to the problem is the mistranslation of the two key words nushuz and adriboo. Some of the possible meanings for both the words, according to the lexicon,3 are given below. Again, the appropriate meaning will depend on the context of the verse.

Nushuz: Animosity, hostility, rebellion, ill-treatment, discord; violation of marital duties on the part of either husband or wife.

Adriboo (root: daraba): to beat, to strike, to hit, to separate, to part.

In the context of the above verse the most appropriate meaning for nushuz is 'marital discord' (ill-will, animosity etc), and for adriboo is 'to separate' or 'to part'. Otherwise, it is inviting the likelihood of a divorce without any reconciliation procedure. Such a step would blatantly contravene the Qur'anic guidance shown in verse 4:35 below. Therefore, a more accurate and consistent translation of the above verse would be:

(4:34) [...]as for those women whose animosity or ill-will you have reason to fear, then leave them alone in bed, and then separate; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek a way against them.

The separation could be temporary or permanent depending on the reconciliation procedure. Such as construction is legitimate within the terms of the language and fits in very well with the divorce procedure outlined in the Qur'an (see 8.5).

The verse following the above verse gives further weight to the above translation.

(4:35) And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and the wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Aware.

Added weight to the meanings outlined above is given by verse 4:128 quoted below. Here, in the case of a man, the same word nushuz is used, but it is rendered as 'ill-treatment' as against 'rebellion' in the case of a woman as shown earlier in the traditional translation of verse 4:34. One find oneself asking whether since the ill-treatment is on the part of the husband, a process of reconciliation is here to be encouraged!

(4:128) If a wife fears ill-treatment (nushuz) or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best[...]

This, obviously, is a double standard and the only way to reconcile the meanings of the two verses, in the contexts they are being used, is to accept the meaning of adriboo as: 'to separate' or to 'part'. In this connection I would like to refer the reader to an excellent article by Rachael Tibbet from which I quote:

(a) Qur'anic commentators and translators experience problems with the term Adribu in the Qur'an not just in this verse but in others, as it is used in different contexts in ways which appear ambiguous and open to widely different translations into English. 'Daraba' can be translated in more than a hundred different ways.

(b) The translation of adribu as 'to strike' in this particular verse (4:34) is founded upon nothing more than:

(i) The authority of hadiths (Abu Daud 2141 and Mishkat Al-Masabih 0276) that this is what Adribu means in this context.

(ii) The prejudices and environment of the early commentators of the Qur'an which led them to assume that 'to strike', given the overall context of the verse, was the most likely interpretation of the many possible interpretations of adribu.

Unfortunately 4:34 is extremely abused by many of the so-called "Muslim" men in the world. While disregarding their own obligations and their own righteousness, these men only focus on the third step of handling this difficult condition as described in 4:34, skip the first two necessary steps and give themselves the excuse to beat their wives. They find support for their misguided and biased views, and for treating their spouses unjustly, in the fabrications of the so called Hadith and Sunna. They thus misrepresent the true Islam (Submission), and divert people from this perfect and just religion for all.


If one takes a holistic look at Islam and its teachings it is clear that good relations between spouses are encouraged, suppression of one's anger is a very important lesson and men are repeatedly advised to treat their wives well.

Some evidences for the good treatment of spouses:

[Quran 30:21] Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.

[Quran 4:19] O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit what the women leave behind, against their will. You shall not force them to give up anything you had given them, unless they commit a proven adultery. You shall treat them nicely. If you dislike them, you may dislike something wherein GOD has placed a lot of good.

Even in divorce a wife should be treated honourably:
[Quran2:229] Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD's law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD's law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD's laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD's laws are the unjust.


Hadith on the matters:

The Prophet said: Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good. (Sahih Muslim)

The Prophet said: Indeed Allah is gentle and loves gentleness and gives due to gentleness that which he does not give to harshness (Sahih ibn Majah, Sahih ibn Hibban)

The Prophet said: The best of you is the one who is best to his own family and I am the best of you towards my family (Sahih At-Tirmidhi, Sahih ibn Majah)

The Prophet said: The strong man is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)

The Prophet said: How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Sahih Bukhari)

Hazrat Iyas bin Abdullah [radhiallaahu anhu] has narrated that the Holy Prophet [sallallaahu alyhi wasallam], while delivering a sermon said: Do not beat the maids of Allah, because beating women is not desirable. When the Holy Prophet prohibits something, the act becomes totally unlawful for one who heard the prohibition direct from the Holy Prophet [sallallaahu alyhi wasallam]. Now it is not lawful for him in any circumstances to beat women. (Abu Dawud)

irishconvert

the_new_mr wrote: »

What's news by the way irishconvert?

Sorry for the lack of updates, have been real busy with work.

Well I have almost stopped drinking and went to the Mosque (for the first time) and prayed on Eid :-). Will probably take the Shahada in the next few weeks.

Shinto wrote: »

Back to the Irish man considering converting to Islam....i'd like to hear your response as well.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking me?? You believe there is no God, I believe there is. I can't prove there is a God and you can't prove there is not one. There is little point in us getting into a debate about it.