What is wrong with Ireland?

davyjose

In fairness, I was calling for Stringer's head, and what happened when Boss came on? He was an absolute disaster. I agree with Starting Flannery in Future - Horgan looked very rusty as well.

Tim Robbins

forbesii wrote:

O'Driscoll believes his own hype. Horgan believes his own hype. D'Arcy believes his own hype.

How do you decide a player believe his own hype.
Is this an anti-leinster thing?

MrJoeSoap

Tim Robbins wrote:

How do you decide a player believe his own hype.
Is this an anti-leinster thing?

How do you decide the mood in the squad is awful? It's all armchair conjecture at the end of the day, and Ireland will live or die by their next two results. Unfortunately at the moment it's looking like we'll be going into both games as underdogs, but maybe that will be to our advantage.

RugBeir

The Irish rugby team is made up of two parts - a very mediocre pack of forwards and a backline of worldclass potential. If we play to our strength (ie backline) we will win. If we focus on forward power we will lose - even to the likes of Georgia. How many times were we five yards out and we persist with the useless maul and ruck option. This is ok for the big teams with the big packs, but absolutely wasteful for Ireland with our backline. EOS is of course too busy renewing contracts and doing his media pieces to notice. He has consistently failed to deliver with this Irish team. Be grateful we wont have to face the humilation of a mother of all hidings from the ABs

AlphaMale 3OO

Jackz wrote:

You will never see the people of New Zealand turn against their team in bad times like Irish people have in several threads like this on boards

Nowhere in the world, is more unforgiving than New Zealand when it comes to rugby matters. There is even said to be a marked increase in domestic violence in and around the time of any World Cup disaster. Crazy but possibly true.

Pride Fighter wrote:

We are very rusty with low squad morale. Give us time. I hope we can turn it around.

Unfortunately, Time is something we dont have.

Tim Robbins wrote:

How do you decide a player believe his own hype.
Is this an anti-leinster thing?

How do YOU decide player management has been all wrong and that players want to go home? This is nothing to do with Leinster/Munster bias, I tend not to support provinces, instead, hoping they all win, but those guys in my view (and particularly O'Driscoll) seem to be more concerned with being celebrities than rugby players. Soccer and celebrities seem to go hand in hand. The same does not apply to rugby.

fatboypee

TV3 pundits hit a nail on the head when they pointed out that Ireland had lost the run of themselves. My opinion (perhaps worth less than nothing), is simply that Ireland didn't play like Ireland. The bread and butter ball and territory delivery system was completely absent.

They tried to run out of trouble (ffs even from DEEP inside the 22!!!!!!!!! :eek: ), kick upfield without even thinking of the line for a opposition line-out.

NOTHING was trademark Ireland pressure play.

2 possible reasons for this:

1. They did not rate Namibia or Georgia and heartfelt beleived they could steamtroller.
2. They've become incredibly conceited about their abilities (to the point of being arrogant) and have lost touch with what got them where they are.

These 2 points in themselves have one thing in common, the lesson taught them by Namibia and by Georgia, if heeded, will see them return to a more controlled game style against France.

This is my suspicion and indeed my hope, as we only have to look at England to see where arrogance and conceit have landed them in this tournament!

FBP.

wixfjord

Time to add my tuppence I think. On present form o driscoll adds nothing to this team. Very selfish with the ball (twice last night he chose to take tackle instead of pass to player on ovarlap) and not a captain (although is o connell?) Darcy has been a one trick pony so far and has been found out as such. O Gara is not the second best out half in the world, his decision making and performance under pressure isnt good. Flannery adds too much to be left out despitee weaknness in the scrum (although I firmly believe that flannery with 7/8 of a munster srum behind must be on par with best in scrummaging dept)) Gleeson and Heaslip were both needed. Heaslip had fantastic season and I cant see Ferris being brought on while Heaslips agression wouild have added so much. Gleeson is the best and one of the onlu groundhogs in Irish rugby (O Conner has been found out at this level). I still think we can pull out a big performance agains France though, no matter wht people say georgia are one of the best of the minnows at this wc and have a particularly good gameplan and sound platform, though that isnt an excuse. Dont think we can progress much further tho, unless scotland can pull off the biggest shock ever. Also off topic, can you imagine either australia, nz or sa capitulating like we did last night?? No. It begs the question has ireland still got the old jack charlton inferiority complex? Did any of us really believe we could win this wc??

is_that_so

Jackz wrote:

You will never see the people of New Zealand turn against their team in bad times like Irish people have in several threads like this on boards, they have given us some great days lately and I for one will have as much belief in them on match day against France as I have always had. We are a small country with a small number of rugby players. Stop winging about the games that are in the past now we are level on points with Argentina we can do it. Ireland RWC 2007.

I think you will find that this is untrue about NZ, they too had some very bad press in the couple of years after the last RWC. But they went away and fixed the problems and got better.

Ireland has for many years thrown up "brave defeats" yet much of the bile here IMO is directed at their complete capitulation in the face of very modest opposition.

Their performances over the last six months have been poor with the last two downright atrocious. To me it is incomprehensible that players of the calibre of O'Connell , O'Driscoll and D'Darcy can play so poorly. They get paid to play rugby.

As for the whingeing well, blind unquestioning support coupled with the "sure we're only a little country" excuse is not a lot better. Regrettably I think we may see Ireland on the end of a beating similar to what happened to England but I'll be sitting in hope.

Teamwise I would drop Stringer, Best, Hickie, and O'Callaghan
for Boss/Reddan(cometh the hour as they say), Flannery, Murphy and Quinlan
Best in for Leamy might also be needed.

I can understand O'Sullivan's caution but maybe he might just for once see changes as avoiding the risk of losing.

is_that_so

skelliser wrote:

can you plz elaborate,
o'connor is defo missed from the ireland squad, he is back from injury and i watched him against rsa when they played connaught, he is nearly back to his best which was just before his injury at wasps were he was savage, they called him johnny o concrete!!

O'Connor is almost guaranteed to give away stupid penalties and has done so.

Laslo

fatboypee wrote:

This is my suspicion and indeed my hope, as we only have to look at England to see where arrogance and conceit have landed them in this tournament!

Of course arrogance and conceit never got Australia, France or New Zealand anywhere. If anything, Ireland need to be more arrogant. They need to go out there and convince themselves they can win instead of being a bunch of underachieving scardy cats who choke all the time. Ireland have always had an inferiority complex as a rugby nation. "Ah sure we're a grand little country for a bunch of leprechauns" - no, bollox to that I'm afraid. You don't hear the AB's going on about how they're a grand wee little country with lots of sheep. They walk onto the pitch, arrogant as you like and they kick ass. THAT'S what Ireland need. Arrogance. Lack of assuredness is what's hurting them.

Sabre0001

fatboypee wrote:

TV3 pundits hit a nail on the head when they pointed out that Ireland had lost the run of themselves. My opinion (perhaps worth less than nothing), is simply that Ireland didn't play like Ireland. The bread and butter ball and territory delivery system was completely absent.

They tried to run out of trouble (ffs even from DEEP inside the 22!!!!!!!!! :eek: ), kick upfield without even thinking of the line for a opposition line-out.

NOTHING was trademark Ireland pressure play.

2 possible reasons for this:

1. They did not rate Namibia or Georgia and heartfelt beleived they could steamtroller.
2. They've become incredibly conceited about their abilities (to the point of being arrogant) and have lost touch with what got them where they are.

These 2 points in themselves have one thing in common, the lesson taught them by Namibia and by Georgia, if heeded, will see them return to a more controlled game style against France.

This is my suspicion and indeed my hope, as we only have to look at England to see where arrogance and conceit have landed them in this tournament!

FBP.

I agree!

Too much trying to force it - We have stopped kicking penalties at goal (besides the one that RO'G missed), kicking for touch is absent and inaccurate and we are trying to offload like NZ when that isn't how we play...

Don't know what is happening to the squad but I'm hoping that they have been too focused on the France & Argentina games. Flannery needs to start, Paul O'C needs a kick up the arse (for those who say O'Callaghan should be dropped, he has outplayed Paul and is mentioned more during the match so I wouldn't agree).


On a side note - does Eddie O'Sullivan has the compassion, confidence and enthusiasm required to psyche up a team or give them a rollocking - I have only seen interviews with him and he never has a spark to him either!

Royale with Cheese

Laslo wrote:

Ireland have always had an inferiority complex as a rugby nation. "Ah sure we're a grand little country for a bunch of leprechauns"

Rubbish, Irish rugby has done nothing but talk itself up for the past 5 years at least.

TheLedge

http://editions.pagesuite.co.uk//PageSuite3.aspx?page=107&scale=100&height=700&width=1000&editionid=29428&filekey=&path=_PSEDitions/Galway%20Advertiser/Galway%20Advertiser/2007-09-13/

Ive put this in the other thread, but look at this link, its ROG launching his own self indulgent bull**** website in Galway last week. Good to see his head is in the right place and concentrating on the job in hand. :rolleyes:

There is one important thing people seem to be forgetting, and that when you play teams in any sport that are supposed to be leagues below you, your head is in a completely different place, and your own arrogance can become a problem. I know myself from playing football when im playing a team at a lower level i try to be way too flashy, although that could be just me!
The other main thing is that no-one wants to get injured before the big games so I can think many of the forwards especially wouldnt be giving 100% commitment. Its all psychological. And thats the difference when playing against guys who are giving their heart and sole, also the Georgians are physically very strong.

Another thing is our "big players" O Driscoll aside always bottle it on the international stage, and when the world is watching. I was in Australia when the last lions tour was on and O Gara was a running joke whenever he played. Granted he has improved a lot over the last two years but he's still a bottler in my book. Darcy bottled it, hickey bottler extrordinaire
O Connell while a magnificent player also bottled it in all those tests.
Stringer is vastly over rated and its a shame he is such a key player in our makeup, unless he performs to his best the whole team suffers (granted when he is good we are good)

For me its all psychological, I think we have the ability in every position but scrum half, we should see a different mentality for the next two matches because they are very different psycholgical prospects....as long as we dont bottle it that is!..oh and give carney a run on the wing

fatboypee

Laslo wrote:

Of course arrogance and conceit never got Australia, France or New Zealand anywhere. If anything, Ireland need to be more arrogant.

This made me smile.. I'm sorry, I may not have made myself as clear as I'd hoped, arrogance and conceit, are all very fine, when you have something behind it to be arrogant about. Moving away from what got you noticed as a force to be recognised and trying to play like NZ, or Australia WITHOUT the depth or foundation, then looking vague and blank when it all goes to pot is EXACTLY what England did and if i'm honest, there is a half-truth in what Ireland are doing now.

As an off-topic, when Munster won the Heineken cup, they began to play expansive, running-ball style rugby like Leinster over night. They crashed, and crashed badly. In my humble opinion, Ireland need to begin to introduce the running game and the expansive game ONLY after first ensuring the platform upon which to do it.

It depresses me deeply to watch Ireland these days really. This team has such immense talent and abilty in ALL facets of the game, on their day, they can mix it with (and beat) the best in the world, and yes, they need a little arrogance, but over that, they need to know what they do well and be confident in doing so, nothing more. The rest, as the Australiam SA and NZ show, comes naturally after, but we're not there yet.

FBP.

SpAcEd OuT

it's time to play rugby in the backline, forwards need to step out of the backline and concentrate on rucking rather than trying to side step centres thats what BOD and D'Arcy are there for. O'Gara needs to find touch, BOD needs to pass more on overlaps, Dempsey needs to support more and Stringer just needs to go.

razorblunt

In fairness it was the forwards that saved the bacon last night, first Leamy lying under the maul and then whoever spoiled on the floor when the Georgians were inches away, I'd like to imagine it was Wallace or Easterby doing that.

fatboypee

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

it's time to play rugby in the backline, forwards need to step out of the backline and concentrate on rucking rather than trying to side step centres thats what BOD and D'Arcy are there for. O'Gara needs to find touch, BOD needs to pass more on overlaps, Dempsey needs to support more and Stringer just needs to go.

Isn't this excatly whats got us into trouble the last two matches ?

Every running ball I watched, I watched with trepidation, waiting for the knock on or the miss-pass.... I maybe wrong but in order to play back line rugby you must first be within territorial distance: ergo at least within a snifter of the half-way or inside the opponents half.

Rucking ? What rucking??, turn over ball, especially last night was bordering hilarious... the forwards are being out-thought, out-muscled and downright outplayed in all quarters...

the backs are then trying to run the ball out of every scrape and situation and getting dumped on their ass..

This is not where Ireland's strength's lie and if anything can be taken from this its the lack of communication... its pure bloody chaos out there..

FBP.

SpAcEd OuT

if we want to beat the french the only way we are going to do that is in our backline. If we play a forward charlie up game we will lose. We need quick cleared rucks for quick ball to the backline then we pray the backs play the way we know they can.

tolosenc

The team needs a large over haul, in my opinion. That and a thorough kick up the arse. We need to get back to basics and grind out a win against France, none of your fancy stuff.

The team I'd pick:

1: Hayes
2: Flannery
3: Horan
4: O'Connell
5: O'Kelly
6: Quinlan
7: Wallace
8: Leamy
9: Boss
10: O'Gara(solely because Wallace would be no better due to lack of experience)
11: Trimble
12: O'Driscoll(c)
13: Dempsey
14: Duffy
15: Murphy

ironingbored

The team I'd pick:

1: Hayes
2: Flannery
3: Horan
4: O'Connell
5: O'Kelly
6: Quinlan
7: Wallace
8: Leamy
9: Boss
10: O'Gara(solely because Wallace would be no better due to lack of experience)
11: Trimble
12: O'Driscoll(c)
13: Dempsey
14: Duffy
15: Murphy[/QUOTE]


You cannot mean this. Dempsey at 13? Duffy? Forwards okay but that is a terrible back line selection. You have to go hickey - darcy - bod - horgan - murphy

fatboypee

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

if we want to beat the french the only way we are going to do that is in our backline. If we play a forward charlie up game we will lose. We need quick cleared rucks for quick ball to the backline then we pray the backs play the way we know they can.

Could not agree more. My point remains, you can only safely run a backline play (with the backs we currently have at least) from within a situation of secured ball, within a territiorial zone, i.e. over the half-way.

If the possession / protection isn't being secured up-front, or territiory is not in our favour then it is pure MADNESS to try and stick to a backline policy. This is proven in the last two matches.

Backline plays in the last two matches were suicidally executed from places only the foolish or arrogant would attempt them.

Do that against France on Saturday and we'll be out of our misery quick-smart.

FBP.

moe_sizlak

o drischoll needs to be replaced as captain , he,s not a leader , he,s not raw enough , he,s not manly enough , hes a posh boy so he,s not rough enough
he sounds more like a PR guru in post match interviews with spin that would put alastair campbell in the shade
while o conell is no ciaran fitzgerald , at least he,s earthy enough to inspire some inspiration , wheres our ******* pride

nacho libre

People are still not getting it. This team beat second string southern hemisphere opposition last November and suddenly they were being touted as World Cup winners. Granted this team is better than the last two performances but they were never good enough to win the World Cup. The forwards don't possess the natural strength of other sides in our group. They have the honed gym physiques but as we saw against Georgia there is no substitute for natural strength and raw power up front.
The Argentine and French forwards will be far stronger as well. So, while it's interesting to talk about combinations in the backline it's really rendered redunant if the forwards can't provide the platform for the back line. That is where the mistakes then start occuring in the backline because they are under huge pressure trying to create something on the back foot.

fatboypee

nacho libre wrote:

So, while it's interesting to talk about combinations in the backline it's really rendered redunant if the forwards can't provide the platform for the back line. That is where the mistakes then start occuring in the backline because they are under huge pressure trying to create something on the back foot.

See my posts. I got it...;) ...
its not the forwards fault all in tho as it seems policy to run the back line plays from anywhere. Granted forwards are not doing their jobs, but theres no gameplan, no kicking to touch, not pushing territory, no communication.

The biggest single issue I have however is Ball-away from the back of rucks or scrums, sad to say it but its been coming a while, Stringer always playing the ref in terms of looking for advantage. never seems to get the ball away anywhere near fast enough and got caught time out of number last night.

Made me laugh when he was interviewed on TV3, not a notion of contrition.. not one..

FBP.

SpAcEd OuT

obl wrote:

The team needs a large over haul, in my opinion. That and a thorough kick up the arse. We need to get back to basics and grind out a win against France, none of your fancy stuff.

The team I'd pick:

1: Hayes
2: Flannery
3: Horan
4: O'Connell
5: O'Kelly
6: Quinlan
7: Wallace
8: Leamy
9: Boss
10: O'Gara(solely because Wallace would be no better due to lack of experience)
11: Trimble
12: O'Driscoll(c)
13: Dempsey
14: Duffy
15: Murphy

Are you serious?
Dempsey in the centre, Duffy and Malcom O'Kelly starting?? 4 players are out of their normal positions

If eddie put that team out against France I would expect his resignation to follow.

Stev_o

Iv been thinking alot and the conclusion iv come up with is this.
Ireland havent played well for 6 months we can all agree with that

Leinster and Munster havent either.

We dominated the Heineken Cup last year with our provinces sides and that lead to some very good performances from the Irish side later on.

Now if you can recall what happened this year. Leinster backs were torn apart by Wasps.

And two real set backs for Munster was loosing to Leicester at home and obviously Scarlets

So basically the province that provides the bulk of forwards were shown to be not invincible like we thought and when a pack decided to take them up front they could win which i think put a huge dent in their confidence

Wasps proved that the Leinster backline could be controlled and put away for good.

Now discuss ^^

razorblunt

The Scarlets game was a one off in my opinion, the last Scarlets try that put them out of sight had a huge block involving one of the Munster backs coming across to make the tackle.

I think Munster will beat Wasps home and away and possibly the same with the Scarlets.

In fairness regarding Leinster if the forwards don't put down a platform the backs will always struggle, this year they should have it sorted.

[Jackass]

O'Sullivan needs to freshin it up a bit and make changes. Below I've made 5 changes not including a captain change, although it's a bit late in the game for that, it should have been done origionally, but the frame of the team remains around our strongest aspects, but it's just throwing in a bit more mobility in the forwards and better set piece with Flannery and more combatative back row and 3 changes in the backs for to be a bit more dynamic and unpredictable, particularly on the wings and better supply to the backs from scrum half.

1. Horan
2. Flannery
3. Hayes
4. O'Callaghan
5. O'Connell (Captain)
6. Wallace
7. Gleeson (how is he not in squad??? - Using current squad Best goes in)
8. Leamy
9. Reddan
10. O'Gara
11. Carney (He's our wild card, let's see what he can do)
12. D'Arcy
13. O'Driscoll
14. Murphy (Horgan on the bench, didn't look fit)
15. Dempsey

It's hardly a major gamble of a team but Murphy has an individual spark better than anyone in the squad with the exception of O'Driscoll and D'Arcy when he's on formvand if he can turn it on like he did against Wales this season we've a whole new outlet that Horgan can't give us at the moment.

Carney is a class player with hugh experience.....in league...but now's the time for him to step up. From what we've seen he is a great player, but Steddie Eddie needs to step out of the box and give him an oppertunity to play. He's not in the squad to keep the other lads company. Where would Jason Robinson be now if he was never given his oppertunity in a big game?

It also helps to have the likes of Hickie and Horgan as back up and are great players to come off your bench to change things around mid-match....if you're willing to use them....

pretty-in-pink

I'm still waiting for us to start playing......