What is wrong with Ireland?

SpAcEd OuT

I think we are now all in agreement that Eddie needs to make serious changes if we want to have any real chance of beating France.

Firstly Stringer has got to go his performance was disgraceful. When Boss came on he instantly made a positive impact with his quick tap that was the sort of spark we needed. unfortunately he was let down by his pack in scrums.

A bit of a gamble but I would start Best ahead of Easterby. We need a quick agressive player to make sure we get quick ruck ball to the backs. Best always indulges himself into the thick of the action and always attempts to counter ruck when the turn over is on.

If we had someone decent enough then for me O'Gara would certainly lose his place. He could not find touch at all, it was a terrible performance unfortunately we have no one else so he starts.


Best should go for Flannery, Best didn't play bad today he actually played quite well but we definitely need some more mobility in the forwards. When Flannery came on he supported the backs well when other forwards couldn't keep up.


Murphy should remain on the bench, Dempsey, Hickie and Horgan all played well.

O'Callaghan should certainly lose his place, but considering his possible replacements no matter how poorly he played its still a gamble I might gamble with putting Quinlan in there.

So in conclusion

Stringer out Boss in

Easterby out Best in

Best out Flannery in

O'Callaghan out Quinlan in [?]

Your Opinions what would you do?

Stev_o

Horgan and Hickie were shadows of themselves today they managed to achieve nothing. Id book a early ticket home maybe

Honestly there is nothing EOS can do he has FAILED to create depth in his squad and it lies soley on him and no one else.

He gambled and lost big time.

Media will have a field day tomorrow and Stephen Jones will finely get supporters when he says that Stinger and O Gara are woefull

I might add that to me we played better in 2003 RWC then this year.

razorblunt

Stringer out Reddan in (Boss was terrible as well)
Wallace to remain
Easterby for Best is right
Best for Flannert (looks like Best done his thumb)
If Eddie had brought anyone but Mal O'Kelly then I would say O'Callaghan for them but O'kelly has the aggression of a wet paper bag
Murphy for Hickie

Fair dues to Dempsey he's been the only player to retain his form

Attractive Nun

I'd risk Quinlan for O'Callaghan. I like the lad, but big DO'C has been useless.

I'd also like to see Trimble from the start, instead of Hickie.

razorblunt

Quinlan loses the head big time though although the aggresion might be a bonus

actually i cant see Easterby being dropped he's a threat on the floor, so Wallace --> Best would be more viable

SpAcEd OuT

razorblunt wrote:

Stringer out Reddan in (Boss was terrible as well)
Wallace to remain
Easterby for Best is right
Best for Flannert (looks like Best done his thumb)
If Eddie had brought anyone but Mal O'Kelly then I would say O'Callaghan for them but O'kelly has the aggression of a wet paper bag
Murphy for Hickie

Fair dues to Dempsey he's been the only player to retain his form

To be honest, the 2 errors made by Boss were completely the fault of the scrum when he came on he made an impact. Even in the Line outs he was screaming at the players to get their act together. Redden hasn't played enough international rugby to warrant his place, too much of a gamble in my opinion of course.

Also a few people have stated Hickie was extremely poor, what exactly did he do wrong? I don't recall him doing anything wrong not saying he didn't but could someone freshen my memory

Stev_o

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

Also a few people have stated Hickie was extremely poor, what exactly did he do wrong? I don't recall him doing anything wrong not saying he didn't but could someone freshen my memory

The fact he didnt do anything spectacular is the main point i thinking. Only thing he could do which no one else could was find touch

SpAcEd OuT

Stev_o wrote:

The fact he didnt do anything spectacular is the main point i thinking. Only thing he could do which no one else could was find touch

But did he get enough attacking ball to do something spectacular? I mean what would Trimble or Murphy have done different on the small amount of ball Hickie got outside his 22? True Murphy might have done a few good kick and chases which Hickie didn't do but would he have been able to find touch as consistently as Hickie did? Thats what I'm wondering.

razorblunt

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

To be honest, the 2 errors made by Boss were completely the fault of the scrum when he came on he made an impact. Even in the Line outs he was screaming at the players to get their act together. Redden hasn't played enough international rugby to warrant his place, too much of a gamble in my opinion of course.

Also a few people have stated Hickie was extremely poor, what exactly did he do wrong? I don't recall him doing anything wrong not saying he didn't but could someone freshen my memory

Boss also had terrible box kicks, I think it's just time to put players in that want to keep the jerseys too many players know they're not going to get dropped. The one thing that impressed me about Boss was when the Georgians went over the line (and held up by Leamy) he was down on his knees ready to throw himself under the Georgians, smart and brave thinking.

There's something wrong with O'Gara the camera cut to him a few times and he looked disinterested the Georgians were two meters from the line and he should have been shouting encouragement, I have a feeling Warwick will be starting more games this year.

thirdmantackle

unfortunately Eddie has left some badly needed players at home watching the World Cup

Gleeson
Humphreys
O'Connor

Murphy must come in for Horgan (who was way off the pace)
Flannery for Best
Boss for Stringer

but no amount of changes will make any difference to this team
the pack are not contesting enough at the breakdown, are losing the physical challenges and their body positions in the tackle and in contact are atrotious
the whole team are struggling with match fitness, ball handling abillity and confidence
the standard of kicking from the backs is poor in comparision to southern hemisphere teams

philstar

issac boss instead of stringer!!......u gotta be kiddin.....with that godawful hairstyle ..no way!!

who does he think he's playing for ireland or Jamaica??

RugBeir

Froget Stringer. If Ireland are serious, they have to play their own game. Our strenght is in our back line - as good as any. Our forwards, as bad as any!
Play to our backs, get the forwards out of the backline, and let the best backline in the world play. Exclcuding Dempsey and Stringer of course!

thebaz

Eddie and BOD seamed happy with performance -- if Georgia had any nous we would be out -- the only one who spoke sense was O'Connell -- take the captaincy of BOD , give it to O'Connell to see if something can spark some life into th team , that lacked no leadersip -- O'Connel himself was ordinary , but maybe a wake up is needed -- Eastersy , Leamy , Hayes, Hickie etc etc looked washed up -- can 1 big performance happen , if not this wil be remebered as a team of under achievers... led by a blinkered coach

sroberts82

The COSH said.....

"I don't expect too much from Georgia: it's only four days after playing Argentina, and they are resting a lot of their better players. I expect them to be physical, I expect their pack to put in big hits - there was plenty of Argentinian blood flowing during that match - but you would expect in the last ten to fifteen minutes that the Ireland's superior conditioning might tell. It also looked to me as if there was a lot of space Argentina didn't really exploit.

"Ireland should beat them comfortably. After the last game, it's hard to predict that we'll blow them away as It will be tough and hard. Aside from the result, I think the key issue for people to watch out for is the extent to which they cause us a problem up front. If they do seem to be getting parity with our pack, then we have a serious problem looking ahead. to the other big games.

"Because of their circumstances - the four day turnaround and the extensive changes - I think we will beat them by 50 or 60 points."

Poor COSH.

monaghanbiffo

Boss? A player moving from Super 14 to Ulster? this is a demotion, he is crap, Eoin Redden is one of the form scrum halfs in the northern hemisphere he must play but of course he wont.

Geordan Murphy, did he get EOS's daughter pregnant, did he shag his wife, F*** his dog; cuz there is no other reason this man is not in the team!!!

Team v France:

1: Horan
2: Flannery
3: Hayes
4: O'Callaghan
5: O'Connell
6: Best
7: Wallace
8: Leamy
9: Reddan
10: O'Gara
11: Hickie
12: D'Arcy
13: BOD
14: Horgan
15: Murphy

This obviously would never work as Reddan and o gara have never played together thanks to EOS

I am just at the end of my tether

Come back Warren Gatland all is forgiven!!!!

Tim Robbins

Right folks, I am still shocked. We have looked very poor int he first two games. We should have been beaten by the Georgian's which contained some of their second string.
We also should have beaten by Italy and we were beaten by the Scots.

Now, I thought we were over rated going into this tournement but I didn't think we were this bad. So what's wrong?

Good players don't just become ad overnight.

I think the mood in the squad is awful.
I personally think the intensity of being in a full time camp for so long is getting to a few of them. We all need a bit of space from each other.

I also think the fact that 8 players are in full time camp and know they haven't a chance of getting a game would really p*ss them off and that mood is bound to effect the camp.

No one likes not being picked but knowing you haven't chance and you are just holding tackling bags for months well wouldn't you just want to go home.

I think the player management has been all wrong.

The provinces play better because they get way more time off, to chill out with their families. None of the Munster lads who play off passion seem to have any passion. Now, despite what some Munster fans think, I think all of Munster lads respect the Green jersey just as much as the Red. The only difference is the set-up in the camp is completely different.

Royale with Cheese

Obviously there's something wrong with the team if they're struggling to beat Namibia and Georgia, but they're just nowhere near as good as many Irish rugby supporters seem to think. Maybe the team believes some of their own hype, and are not respecting the opposition etc.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Ireland turn up in the big games, or at least play a hell of a lot better then they have done in the first 2 games. The good thing for Ireland is that they've played rubbish in the first 2 games, and still got the results. Yeah ok if would have been a complete an utter disaster had they not won both games, and they did miss a bonus point, but they know they have to improve a hell of alot for Argentina and France. They're lucky they were playing the minnows in their first games, and not the big teams.

AlphaMale 3OO

They seem to be overtrained physically and mentally. Programmed to do one thing. They have a hard on for the gym but that won't make them stronger at scrum time etc. Only actual scrummaging will do that. Too much clean and jerks and not enough hitting the machine. The forwards are soft. Their physiques were far superior to the Georgians but technically their skills in general were much the poorer. This is bullsh1t, start playing some rugby and get out of that useless godamn chryotherapy chamber in Poland. O'Driscoll believes his own hype. Horgan believes his own hype. D'Arcy believes his own hype. These players are nothing until they start proving themselves again. Their attitude and seemingly celebrity lifestyle encapsulates everything I don't like about this team and the vibe stinks. Too many sell-outs to Tesco, Samsung, Visa, goddamn shower companies! They have taken their eye off the ball!

zAbbo

Thats an amazing insight into the mindset and workings of the national team lads.

Or are you just armchair coaches like the rest of us ?

heyjude

God help whoever had to pick Ireland's man of the match from this sorry display, I didn't think we could get worse than the Namibia game, now I know better.

IF we had real squad depth, then almost every starter tonight would be fighting for his place.

I know what people are saying, that playing Reddan for Stringer, Quinlan for O'Callaghan or playing Murphy or Trimble instead of Horgan, Hickie or Dempsey(in the case of Murphy), would be too much of a gamble, but frankly the way we are playing, not making any changes would be an even bigger risk. Tonights' game was supposed to be the game in which they ironed out all the problems that emerged in the first game, but instead it was even worse and that against the minnows, now we have to face the big boys and playing the same hand again seems unthinkable.

So bring in Best for Easterby, Reddan for Stringer, Flannery for R. Best, Quinlan for O'Callaghan, Trimble for Hickie(or O'Driscoll if Trimble is a sub) and Murphy for Dempsey or D'Arcy. Also if things start going wrong, Eddie has to have the guts to pull O'Gara and O'Driscoll, nobody should be left on just because they feel they are a big star. This is the world cup and for Ireland, the knockout stage has started early, as by missing the bonus point tonight, we're probably going to have to beat France and Argentina to get out of the group, no sense in just playing out time, sometimes you have to gamble to win and you don't want to go out of the world cup wondering what if ?

Having said all that, Eddie is very cautious, if Rory Best is injured Flannery seems a certain replacement, but I think all the other names will survive and Eddie will just try to keep the score down against France. :mad:

zAbbo

thirdmantackle wrote:

unfortunately Eddie has left some badly needed players at home watching the World Cup

Gleeson
Humphreys
O'Connor

Gleeson had a quiet season, and was poor in the Argentina tests
Humphreys is injured
O'Connor has already been exposed as a liability at International level.

marco_polo

Tim Robbins wrote:

Right folks, I am still shocked. We have looked very poor int he first two games. We should have been beaten by the Georgian's which contained some of their second string.
We also should have beaten by Italy and we were beaten by the Scots.

Now, I thought we were over rated going into this tournement but I didn't think we were this bad. So what's wrong?

Good players don't just become ad overnight.

I think the mood in the squad is awful.
I personally think the intensity of being in a full time camp for so long is getting to a few of them. We all need a bit of space from each other.

I also think the fact that 8 players are in full time camp and know they haven't a chance of getting a game would really p*ss them off and that mood is bound to effect the camp.

No one likes not being picked but knowing you haven't chance and you are just holding tackling bags for months well wouldn't you just want to go home.

I think the player management has been all wrong.

The provinces play better because they get way more time off, to chill out with their families. None of the Munster lads who play off passion seem to have any passion. Now, despite what some Munster fans think, I think all of Munster lads respect the Green jersey just as much as the Red. The only difference is the set-up in the camp is completely different.

This is just my theory so feel free to disagree.

I don't realy buy into the rumours of trouble in the camp, it seems to another instance of the decline of much Irish journalism to the level of the worst british tabloids over the last few years. While the players would naturally be upset to not be getting any game time, I cannot believe that any of them would be causing unrest in the camp.

Unfortunately I believe that the the problem is with the whole mentality of the squad at present. Bearing in mind that most of them have been building their careers around this world cup and will not be around for the next one. It looks to me like they are literally imploding under the weight of expectation (that they have placed on themselves as much as the fans or the media), and I am not sure it can be fixed in six days.

It would be a sad sad way for some of their world cup careers to end in this way if this happens. Some of the bile directed at the squad is totally out of proportion, there is noone out in France not giving 100% effort and some of the bile that has been directed towards the squad from so called fans is disgusting IMHO.

While Eddie O'Sullivan has recieved for much justifiable criticism over issues such as not rotating/introducing new players, being too conservative in selection, not using the bench effectively etc. The finger cannot be pointed solely at the coach when what is supposed to be one of the best backlines in the world cannot finish off countless multiple player overlaps over the last two games, this cannot be layed down at the door of poor preparation.

Given the way the team has been prepared physically over the last few years I would also also be very surprised if the the coaching staff have got the conditioning program so wrong in the run in to the world cup as to leave the squad over trained or lacking in fitness. Even if it was the first time they had picked up a rugby ball in three months, players of that calabre should be able to finish off a four on two overlap 9 out of 10 times. This to me highlights the panic that seems to be running though the squad at the moment.

While I am sure that the squad were obviously concerned about the poor form in the lead up to the world cup, I believe that what is probably the key turning point of the group was when Argentina beat France in the opening game. While in the aftermath the Irish squad did their best to not sound too surprised I am certain that they did not consider this to be a realistic scenario going into the competition.

Once this happened the safety net of a do or die game against Argentina in the event of losing to France in Paris was essentially removed from the list of possibilities. Given that they immediately started talking not about how much pressure that the French would be under when we played them but instead about points difference and bonus points it did make me wonder at the time if they ever really believed that they could beat the French in Paris for all their positive talk in the run up. Perhaps the last gasp win at croke park did irreversiable damage to this group of players after all. In the past two games they have been trying to rack up points ala the Italy game in the six nations, the difference being there were 0 expectations then compared to now.

As for what they can do between here and now, all I can think of is getting the squad getting the bus from Bordeaux to Paris instead of flying and playing Vincent Clercs try on repeat fot the entire ten hours or so. I don't hold out much hope to be honest, but I guess we have to go to Paris and give it one hell of a final lash as the underdogs and see what happens. The winner will be the side handles the pressure best, and the prior evidence suggest that will be us unfortunately.

forbesii wrote:

They seem to be overtrained physically and mentally. Programmed to do one thing. They have a hard on for the gym but that won't make them stronger at scrum time etc. Only actual scrummaging will do that. Too much clean and jerks and not enough hitting the machine. The forwards are soft. Their physiques were far superior to the Georgians but technically their skills in general were much the poorer. This is bullsh1t, start playing some rugby and get out of that useless godamn chryotherapy chamber in Poland. O'Driscoll believes his own hype. Horgan believes his own hype. D'Arcy believes his own hype. These players are nothing until they start proving themselves again. Their attitude and seemingly celebrity lifestyle encapsulates everything I don't like about this team and the vibe stinks. Too many sell-outs to Tesco, Samsung, Visa, goddamn shower companies! They have taken their eye off the ball!

That is grossly unfair on those players who have been brilliant for Ireland in the recent past. Sure you never see the All Black doing any such thing. :rolleyes:

I feel desperatley sorry for the team as it all seems to be unravelling at the worst possible time, they have given us some fantastic memories in the recent years and will not deserve to be remembered they way they inevitably will be should we make an early pool stage exit.

The team could do with a few less so called fans like yourself as well TBH.

Jackz

Very drunk when I wrote this crut: You will never see the people of New Zealand turn against their team in bad times like Irish people have in several threads like this on boards, they have given us some great days lately and I for one will have as much belief in them on match day against France as I have always had. We are a small country with a small number of rugby players. Stop winging about the games that are in the past now we are level on points with Argentina we can do it. Ireland RWC 2007.

marco_polo

heyjude wrote:

God help whoever had to pick Ireland's man of the match from this sorry display, I didn't think we could get worse than the Namibia game, now I know better.

IF we had real squad depth, then almost every starter tonight would be fighting for his place.

I know what people are saying, that playing Reddan for Stringer, Quinlan for O'Callaghan or playing Murphy or Trimble instead of Horgan, Hickie or Dempsey(in the case of Murphy), would be too much of a gamble, but frankly the way we are playing, not making any changes would be an even bigger risk. Tonights' game was supposed to be the game in which they ironed out all the problems that emerged in the first game, but instead it was even worse and that against the minnows, now we have to face the big boys and playing the same hand again seems unthinkable.

So bring in Best for Easterby, Reddan for Stringer, Flannery for R. Best, Quinlan for O'Callaghan, Trimble for Hickie(or O'Driscoll if Trimble is a sub) and Murphy for Dempsey or D'Arcy. Also if things start going wrong, Eddie has to have the guts to pull O'Gara and O'Driscoll, nobody should be left on just because they feel they are a big star. This is the world cup and for Ireland, the knockout stage has started early, as by missing the bonus point tonight, we're probably going to have to beat France and Argentina to get out of the group, no sense in just playing out time, sometimes you have to gamble to win and you don't want to go out of the world cup wondering what if ?

Having said all that, Eddie is very cautious, if Rory Best is injured Flannery seems a certain replacement, but I think all the other names will survive and Eddie will just try to keep the score down against France. :mad:

I had stopped taking you seriously after you suggested that Dempsey be dropped (about the only player who has shown decent form) and also a possible center pairing of Murphy and Trimple. Then I read "Eddie will just try to keep the score down against France" :rolleyes:.

skelliser

were not level on points with argentina, they managed a bonus point against georgia(4 or more tries), we didnt
where not good enough, lack depth, concentration and seem to panic to easily.
against goergia we were played off the park, they totally controlled the game with there ugly but effective one dimensional forward play, we couldnt break them down.

We will not be progressing further in this competition.

skelliser

zabbo wrote:

O'Connor has already been exposed as a liability at International level.

can you plz elaborate,
o'connor is defo missed from the ireland squad, he is back from injury and i watched him against rsa when they played connaught, he is nearly back to his best which was just before his injury at wasps were he was savage, they called him johnny o concrete!!
he can be gauranteed to ruck something we did very little of against namibia
i also think POC has gotten off lightly, he had a woeful game against namibia and only improved slightly lastnite

flannery should be starting, and at this stage i think eddie should play quinlan and b.carney and possibly murphy
to hell with it at this stage mix it up and see what happens!

Jilm

Jackz wrote:

You will never see the people of New Zealand turn against their team in bad times like Irish people have in several threads like this on boards,

Nonsense.

Rugby is ubiquitous in New Zealand so Kiwis are more tuned into the fortunes of their national team than we are to ours. Kiwi fans will turn on the ABs if they feel they are consistently underperforming. If the ABs don't bring home the Webb Ellis Cup this time round, heads will roll (of players & management alike), they're a lot less sentimental than we Irish are.

Pride Fighter

We are very rusty with low squad morale. Give us time. I hope we can turn it around.

davyjose

Jilm wrote:

Nonsense.

Rugby is ubiquitous in New Zealand so Kiwis are more tuned into the fortunes of their national team than we are to ours. Kiwi fans will turn on the ABs if they feel they are consistently underperforming. If the ABs don't bring home the Webb Ellis Cup this time round, heads will roll (of players & management alike), they're a lot less sentimental than we Irish are.

+1 I was in New Zealand at the last World cup and when NZ were beating minnows by 60 points there were complaints from both supporters and journalists, I was stunned.
I think there is a sense of panic in the Ireland camp. In the squad, and perhaps even a lack of commitment. How many high balls were missed last night? I watched Australia yesterday and those sort of kicks were just gobbled up. Same with SA the day before. How much turnover was given away? Unbelievable.
The ref has to be to blame as well. He constantly overlooked Georgia's constant infringement in the ruck.
And credit to Georgia who were very, very well organised.

davyjose

skelliser wrote:

were not level on points with argentina.

We are - they failed to get a bonus against France!

ironingbored

What's wrong with Ireland? Eddie O'Sullivan being given a four-year extension to his contract before the RWC2007 even started. This one was straight out of the top drawer of the FAI "shoot-yourself-in-the-foot" manual. in France we don't have the rousing anthem we had in Croke Park. The Georgians had spirit in their eyes during their anthem. Ireland looked embarrassed by Ireland's Call. Why didn't eddie ring the changes at half time? Best, Best, Flannery, Boss, Murphy, Wallace to show the untouchables that their sacrosant places were no up for grabs. Stringer seems absolutely gone.

davyjose

In fairness, I was calling for Stringer's head, and what happened when Boss came on? He was an absolute disaster. I agree with Starting Flannery in Future - Horgan looked very rusty as well.

Tim Robbins

forbesii wrote:

O'Driscoll believes his own hype. Horgan believes his own hype. D'Arcy believes his own hype.

How do you decide a player believe his own hype.
Is this an anti-leinster thing?

MrJoeSoap

Tim Robbins wrote:

How do you decide a player believe his own hype.
Is this an anti-leinster thing?

How do you decide the mood in the squad is awful? It's all armchair conjecture at the end of the day, and Ireland will live or die by their next two results. Unfortunately at the moment it's looking like we'll be going into both games as underdogs, but maybe that will be to our advantage.

RugBeir

The Irish rugby team is made up of two parts - a very mediocre pack of forwards and a backline of worldclass potential. If we play to our strength (ie backline) we will win. If we focus on forward power we will lose - even to the likes of Georgia. How many times were we five yards out and we persist with the useless maul and ruck option. This is ok for the big teams with the big packs, but absolutely wasteful for Ireland with our backline. EOS is of course too busy renewing contracts and doing his media pieces to notice. He has consistently failed to deliver with this Irish team. Be grateful we wont have to face the humilation of a mother of all hidings from the ABs

AlphaMale 3OO

Jackz wrote:

You will never see the people of New Zealand turn against their team in bad times like Irish people have in several threads like this on boards

Nowhere in the world, is more unforgiving than New Zealand when it comes to rugby matters. There is even said to be a marked increase in domestic violence in and around the time of any World Cup disaster. Crazy but possibly true.

Pride Fighter wrote:

We are very rusty with low squad morale. Give us time. I hope we can turn it around.

Unfortunately, Time is something we dont have.

Tim Robbins wrote:

How do you decide a player believe his own hype.
Is this an anti-leinster thing?

How do YOU decide player management has been all wrong and that players want to go home? This is nothing to do with Leinster/Munster bias, I tend not to support provinces, instead, hoping they all win, but those guys in my view (and particularly O'Driscoll) seem to be more concerned with being celebrities than rugby players. Soccer and celebrities seem to go hand in hand. The same does not apply to rugby.

fatboypee

TV3 pundits hit a nail on the head when they pointed out that Ireland had lost the run of themselves. My opinion (perhaps worth less than nothing), is simply that Ireland didn't play like Ireland. The bread and butter ball and territory delivery system was completely absent.

They tried to run out of trouble (ffs even from DEEP inside the 22!!!!!!!!! :eek: ), kick upfield without even thinking of the line for a opposition line-out.

NOTHING was trademark Ireland pressure play.

2 possible reasons for this:

1. They did not rate Namibia or Georgia and heartfelt beleived they could steamtroller.
2. They've become incredibly conceited about their abilities (to the point of being arrogant) and have lost touch with what got them where they are.

These 2 points in themselves have one thing in common, the lesson taught them by Namibia and by Georgia, if heeded, will see them return to a more controlled game style against France.

This is my suspicion and indeed my hope, as we only have to look at England to see where arrogance and conceit have landed them in this tournament!

FBP.

wixfjord

Time to add my tuppence I think. On present form o driscoll adds nothing to this team. Very selfish with the ball (twice last night he chose to take tackle instead of pass to player on ovarlap) and not a captain (although is o connell?) Darcy has been a one trick pony so far and has been found out as such. O Gara is not the second best out half in the world, his decision making and performance under pressure isnt good. Flannery adds too much to be left out despitee weaknness in the scrum (although I firmly believe that flannery with 7/8 of a munster srum behind must be on par with best in scrummaging dept)) Gleeson and Heaslip were both needed. Heaslip had fantastic season and I cant see Ferris being brought on while Heaslips agression wouild have added so much. Gleeson is the best and one of the onlu groundhogs in Irish rugby (O Conner has been found out at this level). I still think we can pull out a big performance agains France though, no matter wht people say georgia are one of the best of the minnows at this wc and have a particularly good gameplan and sound platform, though that isnt an excuse. Dont think we can progress much further tho, unless scotland can pull off the biggest shock ever. Also off topic, can you imagine either australia, nz or sa capitulating like we did last night?? No. It begs the question has ireland still got the old jack charlton inferiority complex? Did any of us really believe we could win this wc??

is_that_so

Jackz wrote:

You will never see the people of New Zealand turn against their team in bad times like Irish people have in several threads like this on boards, they have given us some great days lately and I for one will have as much belief in them on match day against France as I have always had. We are a small country with a small number of rugby players. Stop winging about the games that are in the past now we are level on points with Argentina we can do it. Ireland RWC 2007.

I think you will find that this is untrue about NZ, they too had some very bad press in the couple of years after the last RWC. But they went away and fixed the problems and got better.

Ireland has for many years thrown up "brave defeats" yet much of the bile here IMO is directed at their complete capitulation in the face of very modest opposition.

Their performances over the last six months have been poor with the last two downright atrocious. To me it is incomprehensible that players of the calibre of O'Connell , O'Driscoll and D'Darcy can play so poorly. They get paid to play rugby.

As for the whingeing well, blind unquestioning support coupled with the "sure we're only a little country" excuse is not a lot better. Regrettably I think we may see Ireland on the end of a beating similar to what happened to England but I'll be sitting in hope.

Teamwise I would drop Stringer, Best, Hickie, and O'Callaghan
for Boss/Reddan(cometh the hour as they say), Flannery, Murphy and Quinlan
Best in for Leamy might also be needed.

I can understand O'Sullivan's caution but maybe he might just for once see changes as avoiding the risk of losing.

is_that_so

skelliser wrote:

can you plz elaborate,
o'connor is defo missed from the ireland squad, he is back from injury and i watched him against rsa when they played connaught, he is nearly back to his best which was just before his injury at wasps were he was savage, they called him johnny o concrete!!

O'Connor is almost guaranteed to give away stupid penalties and has done so.

Laslo

fatboypee wrote:

This is my suspicion and indeed my hope, as we only have to look at England to see where arrogance and conceit have landed them in this tournament!

Of course arrogance and conceit never got Australia, France or New Zealand anywhere. If anything, Ireland need to be more arrogant. They need to go out there and convince themselves they can win instead of being a bunch of underachieving scardy cats who choke all the time. Ireland have always had an inferiority complex as a rugby nation. "Ah sure we're a grand little country for a bunch of leprechauns" - no, bollox to that I'm afraid. You don't hear the AB's going on about how they're a grand wee little country with lots of sheep. They walk onto the pitch, arrogant as you like and they kick ass. THAT'S what Ireland need. Arrogance. Lack of assuredness is what's hurting them.

Sabre0001

fatboypee wrote:

TV3 pundits hit a nail on the head when they pointed out that Ireland had lost the run of themselves. My opinion (perhaps worth less than nothing), is simply that Ireland didn't play like Ireland. The bread and butter ball and territory delivery system was completely absent.

They tried to run out of trouble (ffs even from DEEP inside the 22!!!!!!!!! :eek: ), kick upfield without even thinking of the line for a opposition line-out.

NOTHING was trademark Ireland pressure play.

2 possible reasons for this:

1. They did not rate Namibia or Georgia and heartfelt beleived they could steamtroller.
2. They've become incredibly conceited about their abilities (to the point of being arrogant) and have lost touch with what got them where they are.

These 2 points in themselves have one thing in common, the lesson taught them by Namibia and by Georgia, if heeded, will see them return to a more controlled game style against France.

This is my suspicion and indeed my hope, as we only have to look at England to see where arrogance and conceit have landed them in this tournament!

FBP.

I agree!

Too much trying to force it - We have stopped kicking penalties at goal (besides the one that RO'G missed), kicking for touch is absent and inaccurate and we are trying to offload like NZ when that isn't how we play...

Don't know what is happening to the squad but I'm hoping that they have been too focused on the France & Argentina games. Flannery needs to start, Paul O'C needs a kick up the arse (for those who say O'Callaghan should be dropped, he has outplayed Paul and is mentioned more during the match so I wouldn't agree).


On a side note - does Eddie O'Sullivan has the compassion, confidence and enthusiasm required to psyche up a team or give them a rollocking - I have only seen interviews with him and he never has a spark to him either!

Royale with Cheese

Laslo wrote:

Ireland have always had an inferiority complex as a rugby nation. "Ah sure we're a grand little country for a bunch of leprechauns"

Rubbish, Irish rugby has done nothing but talk itself up for the past 5 years at least.

TheLedge

http://editions.pagesuite.co.uk//PageSuite3.aspx?page=107&scale=100&height=700&width=1000&editionid=29428&filekey=&path=_PSEDitions/Galway%20Advertiser/Galway%20Advertiser/2007-09-13/

Ive put this in the other thread, but look at this link, its ROG launching his own self indulgent bull**** website in Galway last week. Good to see his head is in the right place and concentrating on the job in hand. :rolleyes:

There is one important thing people seem to be forgetting, and that when you play teams in any sport that are supposed to be leagues below you, your head is in a completely different place, and your own arrogance can become a problem. I know myself from playing football when im playing a team at a lower level i try to be way too flashy, although that could be just me!
The other main thing is that no-one wants to get injured before the big games so I can think many of the forwards especially wouldnt be giving 100% commitment. Its all psychological. And thats the difference when playing against guys who are giving their heart and sole, also the Georgians are physically very strong.

Another thing is our "big players" O Driscoll aside always bottle it on the international stage, and when the world is watching. I was in Australia when the last lions tour was on and O Gara was a running joke whenever he played. Granted he has improved a lot over the last two years but he's still a bottler in my book. Darcy bottled it, hickey bottler extrordinaire
O Connell while a magnificent player also bottled it in all those tests.
Stringer is vastly over rated and its a shame he is such a key player in our makeup, unless he performs to his best the whole team suffers (granted when he is good we are good)

For me its all psychological, I think we have the ability in every position but scrum half, we should see a different mentality for the next two matches because they are very different psycholgical prospects....as long as we dont bottle it that is!..oh and give carney a run on the wing

fatboypee

Laslo wrote:

Of course arrogance and conceit never got Australia, France or New Zealand anywhere. If anything, Ireland need to be more arrogant.

This made me smile.. I'm sorry, I may not have made myself as clear as I'd hoped, arrogance and conceit, are all very fine, when you have something behind it to be arrogant about. Moving away from what got you noticed as a force to be recognised and trying to play like NZ, or Australia WITHOUT the depth or foundation, then looking vague and blank when it all goes to pot is EXACTLY what England did and if i'm honest, there is a half-truth in what Ireland are doing now.

As an off-topic, when Munster won the Heineken cup, they began to play expansive, running-ball style rugby like Leinster over night. They crashed, and crashed badly. In my humble opinion, Ireland need to begin to introduce the running game and the expansive game ONLY after first ensuring the platform upon which to do it.

It depresses me deeply to watch Ireland these days really. This team has such immense talent and abilty in ALL facets of the game, on their day, they can mix it with (and beat) the best in the world, and yes, they need a little arrogance, but over that, they need to know what they do well and be confident in doing so, nothing more. The rest, as the Australiam SA and NZ show, comes naturally after, but we're not there yet.

FBP.

SpAcEd OuT

it's time to play rugby in the backline, forwards need to step out of the backline and concentrate on rucking rather than trying to side step centres thats what BOD and D'Arcy are there for. O'Gara needs to find touch, BOD needs to pass more on overlaps, Dempsey needs to support more and Stringer just needs to go.

razorblunt

In fairness it was the forwards that saved the bacon last night, first Leamy lying under the maul and then whoever spoiled on the floor when the Georgians were inches away, I'd like to imagine it was Wallace or Easterby doing that.

fatboypee

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

it's time to play rugby in the backline, forwards need to step out of the backline and concentrate on rucking rather than trying to side step centres thats what BOD and D'Arcy are there for. O'Gara needs to find touch, BOD needs to pass more on overlaps, Dempsey needs to support more and Stringer just needs to go.

Isn't this excatly whats got us into trouble the last two matches ?

Every running ball I watched, I watched with trepidation, waiting for the knock on or the miss-pass.... I maybe wrong but in order to play back line rugby you must first be within territorial distance: ergo at least within a snifter of the half-way or inside the opponents half.

Rucking ? What rucking??, turn over ball, especially last night was bordering hilarious... the forwards are being out-thought, out-muscled and downright outplayed in all quarters...

the backs are then trying to run the ball out of every scrape and situation and getting dumped on their ass..

This is not where Ireland's strength's lie and if anything can be taken from this its the lack of communication... its pure bloody chaos out there..

FBP.

SpAcEd OuT

if we want to beat the french the only way we are going to do that is in our backline. If we play a forward charlie up game we will lose. We need quick cleared rucks for quick ball to the backline then we pray the backs play the way we know they can.

tolosenc

The team needs a large over haul, in my opinion. That and a thorough kick up the arse. We need to get back to basics and grind out a win against France, none of your fancy stuff.

The team I'd pick:

1: Hayes
2: Flannery
3: Horan
4: O'Connell
5: O'Kelly
6: Quinlan
7: Wallace
8: Leamy
9: Boss
10: O'Gara(solely because Wallace would be no better due to lack of experience)
11: Trimble
12: O'Driscoll(c)
13: Dempsey
14: Duffy
15: Murphy