do you think the ban on stag hunting will have a knock-on effect other field sports

stevoman

does anyone think the ban on stag hunting will now effect other field sports in the country such as hare coursing and fox hunting in the long run? as we can already see the donimo effect in the uk is in full swing and now that fox hunting and hare coursing in the uk is now gone, the anti's are circuling around the shooting comunity like a pack of wolves. what does anyone else think, are we in for it too?

spideog7

I do believe that none of the items to which you refered, in your post actually have anything to do with shooting at all.
Regardless, if they are to be banned I can only see it happening if the same reasoning behind banning Stag hunting can be applied to them, which as far as I can see it can't be.
Also I don't think it will affect shooting so quite frankly I'm not too pushed either way.

Sparks

Doubtful. There's one stag hunt in the country, it gets refused a licence (stag hunting has not yet been officially banned), but hare coursing remains untouched. In effect, Gormley is defending hare coursing using stag hunting as a shield.

That said, spideog's right - this is barely related to shooting, so unless it connects more with the forum shortly, we'll move the thread to the sports/outdoor pursuits forum.

stevoman

spideog7 wrote:

I do believe that none of the items to which you refered, in your post actually have anything to do with shooting at all.
.

of course they do. in fact it has everything to do with shooting. after one hunt is banned, the anti's look for another and another and another and its only sooner or later that they wrap there hands around the necks of the shooters of ireland...... who hunt animals with there guns (not for cruelty, but for the joy of eating wild game), and those who enjoy target shooting......

spideog7

If they ban them all (including shooting) there will soon be a bounty on foxes, the place will be rampant with them
Two years ago we (in the local Gun club) shot over 500 foxes in one season (~Sept to May). That said there are few hunts near us (thankfully) and the club covers a huge area. Without some form of control farmers will be up in arms, they'll even be a hazard on the roads (no joke - I know someone who was almost killed after swerving to avoid a fox and hit a telephone pole, that was in a local wooded area where they are very plentiful and hard to shoot).
In my honest opinion I don't see shooting ever being banned outright. Further restrictions may be imposed on us innocents but an outright ban exists only in the mind ICABS and other such fraternities. The hunts to which you are refering however are much more at risk of a ban, particularly given the precedent set in the UK.

stevoman

[QUOTE=spideog7 The hunts to which you are refering however are much more at risk of a ban, particularly given the precedent set in the UK.[/QUOTE]

agreed, but my worry is that if or when these bans are made, whats to stop the do-gooders from protesting, complaining and all the rest that comes with it against the irish shooter, i mean if all this goes it will be driven shoots (which to be honest i dont participate in) they'l be after then. can you see where im coming from?

Sparks

Stevo, by that logic, we'd have eventually to row in behind the tiddlywinks association of Ireland to prevent the banning of red dye in plastics, lest the antis use that as the thin end of the wedge to get shooting taken out of the olympics and banned alltogether...

stevoman

sorry sparks but i dont agree with you on that one, and neither does the poll so far. im pretty sure olympic target shooting and the rest of target shooting might be somewhat safe, but shooting as a field sport, thats a different matter completly.

Sparks

Ah, internet polls amongst small biased subsets of an already small subset of the community.
Point made?

thelurcher

Sparks/spideog7 - are you saying the Greens are not against other forms of hunting

Are you saying that stag hunting with hounds or shooting animals/birds with your gun is not hunting/field sports?

The Ward were an easy target this year and look at the reason why -

it is understood Mr Gormley believes the school mayhem gives him sufficient grounds to act.

from the examiner today.
That incident was very very minor and has had more and more 'legs' added to it since. Can you image if the wrong person gets injured by an accidental discharge at a range or some nutter runs amok with a 9mm.

Not to put words in BryanL's mouth but that's what he is getting at in the other thread - it's the reason why the license was refused that is the most ridiculous and worrying thing about the Ward's case - it just shows what little an excuse is needed to effectively outlaw any of the field sports and if you want to take it further - the target shooting disciplines.

thelurcher

Sparks - you've said yourself before to remember that the anti-gun nuts and journalists keep an eye on this site - so watch what we write.

Your last post is hardly helpful in that regard so remove it like a good man :rolleyes:

Sparks

Lurcher, the greens have helped us on several occasions for target shooting; and while the party hasn't given the party stance on shooting, that's more because the greens don't have that kind of internal structure like the others do. Individual greens not only support shooting, but are shooters themselves. And if you think that the Greens are the biggest threat shooting has in the government, you've not read the author's name or the list of those who voted yay for the Criminal Justice bill in '06.

As to imagining what would happen if someone got injured by an AD or some nutter running amok, guess what? All of us can imagine that, and those with poor imaginations may look to the UK for inspiration. And like I've been saying for the past decade, the reason that this is a problem is because as a group we have never taken any kind of sane approach to the court of public opinion. For example, I'm stepping down as Secretary and PRO in the NTSA this year. Finding a volunteer who could take over as secretary took a week. Finding one for PRO? Not a hope. Not one single solitary volunteer to date. I've asked directly a few people I thought would be good at it, but they said no. This is possibly the most critical job there is in a club or association, and noone wants to touch it with a barge pole!

Want to know why the anti's win so often? Because they know the press and use the press and get coverage over a long time period and get into the public's subconcious and that sets the tone for the debate long before the debate comes up. You want to fix that? Get positive images for shooting out there. Get the image away from news footage of yet another gangland shooting in dublin or limerick and onto junior shooters bringing medals home from international competition or on international shooters coming to Ireland for a major match or on charity matches raising tens of thousands of euros for a children's hospital, or onto any other kind of positive image. Stop hiding and keeping quiet, go to matches, support your clubs, get those images out there and into the public conciousness, and the antis naturally become seen as what they are - a small, shrill minority with no logical argument and several of whom aren't quite as nice as they seem. And then you'll start to notice that other things happen as well - like saner regulations and laws, for example, or better facilities, and more of them, and more grant aid and more money in general... you see the point?

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

For example, I'm stepping down as Secretary and PRO in the NTSA this year. Finding a volunteer who could take over as secretary took a week. Finding one for PRO? Not a hope. Not one single solitary volunteer to date. I've asked directly a few people I thought would be good at it, but they said no. This is possibly the most critical job there is in a club or association, and noone wants to touch it with a barge pole!

I don't think it's because no-one wants to touch it with a barge pole. I think it's more a case of nobody being as qualified as you for the job. That's not flattery, Sparks, its a fact. PRO is one of the few jobs that actually requires a considerable amount of experience and a great deal of contacts to be carried out succesfully.

We've seen it in the past where unqualified, inexperienced people have volunteered and have been abject failures.

Sparks

I won't say it's a job that you don't have to expend any energy on learning rrpc, but it's not one you have to be born to or anything - I had no experience as a PRO when I started - I read a book or two, the NTSA sent me on one meet-the-media course that the Federation of Irish Sports ran, and as to contacts, I have sheets of them, mostly from other people! It's a transferable job, it just needs someone who understands that it is important and who's willing to learn how to do it and then do it (and only it!) for the year.

(Besides, I've already volunteered to keep the website and all that techie stuff up and running, so it's not like we need some technical genius for the job - anyone who wasn't scared of writing or learning a new task could do this...)

cavan shooter

Remember the green parties manifesto during the election. They want to ban all blood sports (shooting is a blood sport)
ICABS web site:

"Green Party urged to honour pre-election pledge
In its pre-election manifesto, the Green Party made a historic pledge to ban blood sports if they succeeded in getting into government. With two Ministers and a Minister of State now in position, the Green Party is today firmly in government. Please join us in urging the Green Party to honour its promise to bring hare coursing, carted deer hunting and fox hunting to an end in Ireland"
http://www.greenparty.ie/en/policies/animal_welfare/animal_welfare_policy

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

so it's not like we need some technical genius for the job - anyone who wasn't scared of writing or learning a new task could do this...

Possibly, but it would certainly mean at least a couple of months of 'downtime' while they got their head around it.

Double Barrel

Originally Posted by Sparks

Want to know why the anti's win so often?
Because they know the press and use the press and get coverage over a long time period and get into the public's subconcious and that sets the tone for the debate long before the debate comes up.


You want to fix that?
Get positive images for shooting out there.Get the image away from news footage of yet another gangland shooting in dublin or limerick and onto junior shooters bringing medals home from international competition or on international shooters coming to Ireland for a major match or on charity matches raising tens of thousands of euros for a children's hospital, or onto any other kind of positive image.
Stop hiding and keeping quiet, go to matches, support your clubs, get those images out there and into the public conciousness, and the antis naturally become seen as what they are - a small, shrill minority with no logical argument and several of whom aren't quite as nice as they seem. And then you'll start to notice that other things happen as well - like saner regulations and laws, for example, or better facilities, and more of them, and more grant aid and more money in general...

Well said and oh so true.

spideog7

Originally Posted by stevoman
...i mean if all this goes it will be driven shoots (which to be honest i dont participate in) they'l be after then. can you see where im coming from?

I certainly see where you are coming from but in all honesty I don't see it happening in this country.
The current Gun Club infrastructure in this country is, too a large degree, there to develop the wild game stocks in it's given region, this is for the betterment of our environment and countryside and obviously also so that we can hunt them without causing their extinction. It is the Gun Clubs mainly that control vermin also, so that they can aid the development of the game stocks by protecting them and also at the request of farmers (bearing in mind that many gun club members are farmers or grew up in a farming community). Many (not all) farmers appreciate the need for some kind of vermin regulation, without any they would really be a very big problem.
Banning vermin hunting (such as driven fox hunts) would be a huge blow to local Gun Clubs trying to develop a wild game bird stock in a region (one mink or fox alone can decimate an entire years worth of work in one night) and trying to stay afloat would be almost impossible, members want to see a return for their money, and their hard work (as Sparks points out it's hard to get people to volunteer their time at all these days, I know I have on one occasion been asked to manage the vermin count for not alone our gun club area but the entire region consisting of 7 or 8 gun clubs and I'm only 19 - that said I just happened to be there at the wrong time;) ). My point is that such a decision has major knock on effects and will not be taken lightly by any right minded (excuse the pun) politician, particularly if they are anyway related to a rural area, the farming and hunting lobby is a large force, and one to be reckoned with.
It's true that many people might not be very active in promoting the sport and would rather tip quitely along, have the odd shot on the weekend and maybe after duck during the week (in my Parish area alone there are 200 registered firearms I maybe can account for the owners of 9 or 10 ). People tend mainly to keep it to themselves because it's not a very big deal in any normal rural area (try mentioning it at an interview, I put it on my CV... the looks ). That said try and take away their guns or their rights to shoot and you might be faced with an entirely different ball game.

I can see where you are coming from and you have a point that ICABS and possibly some members of the Greens may be pushing for it now that they think they have the power, but quite frankly they are pissing against the proverbial wind... and if they are reading this feel free to quote me on that

Most sincerely

thelurcher

That said, spideog's right - this is barely related to shooting, so unless it connects more with the forum shortly, we'll move the thread to the sports/outdoor pursuits forum.

I was replying - in my first post - to the above comment Sparks - I took it a bit further by saying the Ward case is not only relevant to hunting with a firearm but also target shooting.
Try and keep your replys more focussed rather than goning off on a rant about promoting the sport - start a new thread if you want.

Lurcher, the greens have helped us on several occasions for target shooting; and while the party hasn't given the party stance on shooting, that's more because the greens don't have that kind of internal structure like the others do. Individual greens not only support shooting, but are shooters themselves. And if you think that the Greens are the biggest threat shooting has in the government, you've not read the author's name or the list of those who voted yay for the Criminal Justice bill in '06.

That's very very naive Sparks :rolleyes:
I don't like the way you and some others here try and seperate target shooting from hunting - that's playing into the anti's hands. One balls up for either of us and we all go down together.

Sparks

I don't try to seperate target shooting and hunting lurcher, they just are seperate. One uses a firearm, the other doesn't. (I'm thinking of hunting with hounds here, rather than sport shooting or deer stalking or the like).

fits

this is barely related to shooting, so unless it connects more with the forum shortly, we'll move the thread to the sports/outdoor pursuits forum.

:eek:
Move with care... crazy things could happen:D

foxhunter

Ive just had a text from countryside alliance and it goes like this
"Urgent" lobby john gormley's office to ensure licences are granted to the ward union hunt and the irish coursing club phone 01-888-2403 "support country sports phone now"

I have no interest in coursing or the hunt but ive supported the lobby because you never know when we will need their help.

stevoman

i just called the ministers office aswell. again, i have no interest in stag hunting, but i do think coursing is a great traditional sport and should not be banned as all greyhounds are muzzled at every meet and all hares are freed afterwards.

i hope other people from the board will call the ministers office too and support this.

BryanL

this was sent by the hunting association of Ireland(who do handy insurance for all hunting shooting fishing 50 euro a year)

Special Alert From HAI



Ward Union license in serious doubt



Minister Gormley will announce decision in 48 hours



In the mean time



Ring

E Mail

Fax

Call

On your local Fianna fail TD or Fianna Fail itself

Your local TD’s number can be found by visiting


http://www.fiannafail.ie/

phone

01 6761551

Rew

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhcwgbqlcwgb/rss2/

Coursing clubs granted licences
06/09/2007 - 19:41:52

Licences will be issued to the Irish Coursing Club for the capture and tagging of hares, it was announced tonight.

Minister for the Environment John Gormley granted the licence for the coming season, but stressed that clubs will be strictly monitored to ensure they adherence to conditions.

He said on basis of previous breaches, one of the affiliated clubs will be excluded from holding a licence, while the activities of two other clubs will be curtailed.

"I am aware that there has been some incidents where there has been a failure to co-operate with my Department's conservation rangers at meetings," said Mr Gormley.

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"The rangers have an important role in ensuring that the conditions of the licences are met.

"I take a very serious view of this issue and I will not tolerate any breaches of conditions of the licence or any interference with the conservation rangers while carrying out their job."

Meanwhile, the minister said he was still considering an application made by the Ward Hunt Union under the Wildlife Act 1976, in relation to carted stag hunting.

"I have a number of serious concerns in this regard and I am writing to the Ward Hunt to afford it an opportunity of addressing those concerns before making a final decision on the matter," he added.

"I will not be commenting any further on this issue until I have received and considered all relevant information."

Terrier

Irish Indepdent
Friday September 07 2007

Gormley gives green light to the trapping of 7,000 hares

GREEN Environment Minister John Gormley last night controversially gave the green light for the trapping of 7,000 hares for coursing meetings.
However, he refused a licence to one coursing club, Westmeath United in Co Westmeath, for a year for breaching a previous licence.
And the minister severely curtailed the activities of two other clubs in relation to trapping hares.
The move to approve the trapping of hares for 75 coursing clubs is bound to infuriate anti-blood sports groups which reminded the minister that the Green Party pledged to end blood sports when in Government.
But the future of the country's only stag hunt, the Ward Union Hunt, is still in the balance.
The minister has written to the hunt voicing "serious concerns" about the hunting of stags.
A report carried out for the Government some years ago on the Ward Union Hunt concluded that the stag, which is transported in a cart before being chased by hounds, is "terrified" by the dogs, people and cars.
It concluded that domesticated red deer are completely unfit for prolonged chases by hounds.
The handling of the stag afterwards was described as terrifying and stressful to the animal.
And there were occasions where the stag was sometimes wounded by incidents or the dogs.
There was uproar after the the last Ward Union Hunt which resulted in a stag being chased into a primary school yard at Kildalkey, Co Meath, by a pack of dogs. This caused some distress to parents and children.
Activists claim stag hunting is in contravention of the Wildlife Act which outlawed unnecessary cruelty to domestic and wild animals.
In a statement last night, Mr Gormley said he would be issuing licences for capture and tagging of hares to the Irish Coursing Club for the coming coursing season.

stevoman

fair play to everyone who contacted the minister's office and their T.D's, for lobbying this matter! at least the coursing will go ahead this year anyways, i wonder if the ward hunt will get their license, and if so, i bet the papers will be flooded with all of our our favourite letters we love to see.

BryanL

there is way too much money in coursing for it to be stopped.the Irish coursing club have also work things,that to race a greyhound you have to be a member of the Irish coursing club.keeps it's membership high and the coffers well stocked for battling this sort of thing.
would be great if to have a hand gun you had to be a full member a shooting organisation or similar???
gormley?the greens don't stand for much do they.silent over Tara despite all their pre election talk and maybe just a token stopping of the ward union till the minister changes and another license is issued
Bryan

fits

I think they'd be better off in a slightly left of centre position than jumping in with these pretty marginal causes.
There are lots of green policies that I would like to see implemented, but their stances on bin taxes, hunting, incineration and the N3 are all mad imo... (I dont know much about the N3 but I know Co. Meath needs a decent road sooner rather than later). Being in government is probably good for them and will help them realise they need more brain-power and less wacky unworkable policies.

Sparks

stevoman wrote:

i bet the papers will be flooded with all of our our favourite letters we love to see.

Then FLOOD BACK. Feck's sakes lads, why are you waiting for the letters? Send in your own ones now and don't let the opposition get in the first punch, because most people don't read the replies...

BryanL wrote:

would be great if to have a hand gun you had to be a full member a shooting organisation or similar???

No. Not with our organisations in the shambles they're in at the moment. It'd end in tears. And lawsuits. Both of which we have a surplus of at present.

BryanL

just a small update,first a response from a local TD Noel O'Flynn, i wrote to,i took his son shooting about 15 years ago(and had forgotten!) as many introductions as you can make to shooting/hunting can be a great thing.people may not love it like us but it can open minds, and then a HAI update

Dear Bryan Many thanks for your e-mail I am well aware of your love of hunting and how it plays an important part of your life. I believe that you introduced my son Kenneth to hunting, since that Kenneth has had a grate love of the sport, Banning of the any sport is a concern to me, and I agree not to be taken on a whim I would like to discuss this further with you if possible in my cork office Perhaps on a Monday or a Friday if you could call my office

From: hunting@hai.ie
To: hunting@hai.ie
Subject: Ward Union
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:01:30 +0100


Dear Member



Well done on your lobbying, text campaign etc

Keep up the good work

The License is still in the balance

GIVE US ONE HOUR THIS WEEKEND

TO SAVE 150 YEARS OF HUNTING



The Ward Union Hunt would like to thank all those who have supported them in their hour of need.

We have been genuinely overwhelmed and humbled by the scale of it.



Through your interventions and canvassing of TD’s Green Party Minister,

John Gormley has been delayed in banning our hunt and he has now been

forced to allow us state our case.



We are confident we can satisfy all his “concerns” under the Wildlife Act.



It is imperative that the campaign is maintained over this weekend and

continues through the consultation period. Please contact your local TDs

this weekend and tell them you are concerned about the future of your sport.



Contact your local Fianna Fail TD and remind him/her of the commitments

they gave on entering coalition with the Greens that they would not allow

the Greens in Government to “interfere in anyway or change the status of hunting.”

Just 13 weeks into this Government and the Greens were banning our hunt without

consultation.



Contact your Fine Gael/Labour TD and ask him/her to make representations

on your behalf to Minister Gormley. They will be only too happy to use

this issue to highlight the first major crack in this coalition.



Contact the Green Party. Yes it is a must. They must be made aware of the

huge groundswell of opposition they are creating for themselves at the start of

this Government

If you don’t have access to a computer please ask some family member or friend

to get you the telephone number from the web for your local TDs, Senators and

Councillors. Then phone them, write to them or e-mail them, stating your concerns.

We are asking all hunts with text services to please circulate their members and

subscribers with the numbers of the TDs in their country.



The battle for our hunt is the battle for your hunt. The battle for the Ward Union is

curiously the battle for Horse Racing.



One phone call from Brian Kavanagh CEO of HRI to Minister Brennan asking him

to enquire of Minister Gormley has he considered all the implications of such a ban

would be so significant.



We are asking the real horse racing people of Ireland, the Point to Point community,

the Jockeys, the Trainers, Syndicate members, the Punters, please support us now.

Your phone call WILL make a difference.



We acknowledge all the Gun Clubs and Anglers who have supported us these last

few days and ask them to please maintain their campaign.



We are very appreciative that very senior figures in IFA made personal

and private representations to the highest levels of Fianna Fail this week.

“If they get away with banning a hunt in just three months they’ll certainly

have banned live exports by this time three years” one IFA senior member told us.



This is it! The battle is NOW! Through representations Minister Gormley has been

delayed and forced to reconsider. It is Now we MUST Act.



Please make that phone call, write that letter, send that e-mail. In anticipation of your

support when we needed it most, we thank you most sincerely.



Declan Brooks

Secretary

Ward Union Hunt