Thought on the Navan Railway and the M3

Propellerhead

Why beat on Shane McEntee? A piece in the newspaper kiteflying about Kingscourt is not going to delay the Navan line for one simple reason.

Shane is a Fine Gael TD. Fine Gael is not in Government.

Fianna Fail, the Green Party, the rump of the PDs and the rag tag and bobtail of Independents are.

Ask the one pertinent question to the right man.

Noel Dempsey. Remember him? He's the man who "delivered" the railway to Navan.

If walking from Clonsilla to Navan along the old alignment is delivering, then delivered he has.

:rolleyes:

Xyndrix

This is the second time in a matter of months I've heard Shane McEntee waffling about the Kingscourt line. I've never heard him say anything worthwhile or meaningful about the Navan line. The only thing I did hear him say with regard to the Navan line is that they should take more land for the M3 so as to bring the line along the same route as the motorway. Anyone who was serious about getting rail to Navan and from there on to north Meath in the future would not be spouting such nonsense. As already stated, it's too late to re-engineer the M3, gradients are wrong, and the route is stupid anyway for a whole variety of reasons discussed to death already.

FG mightn't be in power but they could certainly help the cause of the Navan line by making sure they are properly informed of the issues involved, asking the right questions and putting pressure on the government to make progress. As it is they are just messing around and don't know what they're talking about. You can see this with Meath's other FG TD Damien English. Here he claims the old alignment is useless because of the sewerage pipes yet the consultants involved in the study said it was not an insurmountable problem. He probably thinks it's cheaper and easier to cross the M3 instead after it's built.

It wasn't always like this for FG in Meath. I recall John Bruton arguing several years ago that a route should be decided as soon as possible so that developments could be planned in advance along it and thus make it a more viable proposition. He also wrote to the NRA advising them that a M3 route between Tara and Skryne would only cause trouble and delay for the project. He was right. Alas FG in Meath are now completely indistinguishable from FF. Any time they open their mouth they're more likely to make things worse by adding confusion and misinformation to the debate.

MarkoP11

To clarify the sewer main issue, once the manholes are removed and the pipe decommissioned there isn't a problem

The full sewer main scenario is available here
http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/navan/response.php

It is very very disapointing. Meath CC slugged it out with tax payers money in the High Court in an attempt to prevent a certain high profile establishment from building on the line, Meath CC lost on a technicality but they did try.

The whole Kingscourt thing is going to be the downfall of the whole Navan rail project.

Navan Junction

Propellerhead wrote:

Why beat on Shane McEntee? A piece in the newspaper kiteflying about Kingscourt is not going to delay the Navan line for one simple reason.

No one said it would delay the Navan line - but the question remains as to how genuine he is about Kingscourt line.

Lets just say that John Bruton aside, FG are terrible on the Navan link. That's not a slight on either Damien English or Shane McEntee - but you'd at least expect the same levels of vocalism on the subject as is seen in other parts of the country, particularly as there is a case for the line.

I've heard it suggested that if FG were in government neither McEntee or English would have the clout within party to get it delivered, which might explain their reluctance to pursue the issue

And no, that's not a vote of confidence in Dempsey, Wallace & Co or even in the Green Party (who have ironically been the most vocal on the issue)

Navan Junction

MarkoP11 wrote:

The whole Kingscourt thing is going to be the downfall of the whole Navan rail project.

No it's not because nobody is really interested in it other than as a means to take trucks off the road or to run steam trains on. Plus it's rotting away, and it's like a rollercoaster

You have to remember that Shane McEntee is from Nobber - trust me, this is waffle - he didn't even take Ó Cuiv to task over his proposal to turn it into a walkway! And that was in the run-up to the election when candidates were tripping over them selves for news coverage

dermo88

Maybe they are taking a leaf from the muppets out West by demanding more than they need, and in demanding more than they need, they actually get what was needed in the first place. So by demanding reopening to Kingscourt they get Navan.

As for Fine Gael, rest assured they never were, and never will be friends of rail transport. Fine Fail are bad enough, but sweet merciful jesus....Fine Gael are a walking ****ing disaster, judging by the record of Jim Mitchell (CIE is an Albatros, DART is a white elephant), Michael Lowry (DART to Greystones, which was not needed), Olivia Mitchell (Interconnector....whats that)....along with the old culchie coaxing in Claremorris....Fianna Fail might be bad, but.....well....lets wait and see.

Prediction. Navan, in 2023.

Navan Junction

The FG TDs in Meath appear to have carved the railway up between them. Damien English is their Navan rail man, and Shane McEntee is Navan-Kingscourt.

Even though Dunshaughlin and Dunboyne are in Meath East, they seem to fall under Damien English's remit too

It's ironic that Shane McEntee has a constituency office in Duleek, yet has never made a statement about reopening a station there on the Navan-Drogheda line - normally politicians would be jumping on that

It's not just these two though - the provision of transport infrastructure should be taken out of the political arena altogether. All politicians are culpable - I can't think of anyone of them that exhibits a real passion for changing the system in terms of how we go about transport infrastructure and tying it in with development planning

Propellerhead

More wibble about Fine Gael.

FFS are ye afraid of offending Dempsey or what? He's the man in the driving seat.

Navan Junction

No I just wish opposition TDs in the county would at least try to justify their salaries. If the boys in Govt don't do the job, you at least would expect the opposition to take them to task over it.

They haven't done that and lets face it without a strong opposition presence how can you ever expect FF to do it right. FF's lack of delivery is plain for all to see - it doesn't matter one iota whether Dempsey is insulted or not - it's political pressure that will make him deliver and its that and not how tender his ego is that will either see the line delivered or not

You would just expect FG's reps in the county to be holding to them account and pressuring them on it - instead we have waffle about Kingscourt again

DerekP11

I think my nakedity and banjo are safe.:D

Navan Junction

DerekP11 wrote:

I think my nakedity and banjo are safe.:D

The people of Batterstown will rejoice!

DerekP11

Navan Junction wrote:

The people of Batterstown will rejoice!

Yeah and they still won't have a railway.;)

lostexpectation

so anyway why have meathontrack and p11 gone so quiet on navan rail?

DerekP11

lostexpectation wrote:

so anyway why have meathontrack and p11 gone so quiet on navan rail?

Can't speak for Meath on Track, but will speak for Rail Users Ireland (formerly Platform 11)

We were very vocal about the Navan railway from early 2005 to 2006. During that period we assisted all interested parties including MOT. We surveyed the route and put it in the public domain as best we could. We also prepared a report on reopening the Navan - Drogheda route to passenger traffic in order to serve Dublin. This report was shot down by Irish Rail on the basis of the Dept. of Transport not being willing to fund it on the basis of the "direct" route being planned for reopening. There was also the issue of "capacity" in Connolly mentioned. But we put this down to incomptence/unwillingness/inability on Irish Rails part as we had designed a timetable to facilitate it.

Through the course of our endeavours we witnessed political gombeenism, stupidity and outright conflict of interest. The M3 project has made the provision of a direct rail service to Navan very difficult. In September 2005 (a mere 2 months before the launch of T21) Irish Rail were trumpeting the Pace park n ride as the solution to Navan.(inclusive of an M3 toll to access it.) Now they insist they will go all the way to Navan.Overall the process has been mindnumbing and borderline soul destroying. I am on public record as not believing that a railway to Navan will open in 2015 because there has been a litany of broken promises in terms of dates, there was never any real committment and the continuing slowing of the econonmy will provide the Government with an excuse. History is repeating itself.

Rail Users Ireland continues to believe that Navan - Drogheda is the most workable solution in the circumstances. Our position on the direct route has not changed despite what Irish Rail have publically stated. We feel that we have put our position on public record, generated debate and the fight is now down to other parties. We will continue to support any of them.

popebenny16

There was also the issue of "capacity" in Connolly mentioned.

Which we knew was cod and was proved to be a cod this week, thus proving that if IE and the DoT really wanted this, it could have been in place years ago. Never mind rubbish about waiting on Docklands Station. Are the people of Navan going to have to wait on Broadstone as well? Bull****.

Transport21 Fan

the work is flying along at Clonsilla Junction. The Sligo train slows down and the 6-month old baked beans spillage on my 'social justice or chicks' anorak started to glow as I watched the fellas working on the track. Very interesting to watch too. I must say as bad as IE can be, they are very good at the infrastruture stuff from what little knowledge I have of this stuff. Can't be easy to plan, wire up and install this junction and new points and so on with services still running. Nice to see something happening other than the quasi-victorian relay of the WRC with wooden sleepers and a Peruvian Andes switchback at Athenry. Still they are playing to a certain audience with that one.

Anyways, here is more proof that Transport21 is kinda happening:

murphaph

It is supposed to be a double track to Dunboyne, right? I take it they just haven't got the second track down.

I'd scond IE's technocal ability. Nobody has ever really called that into question. Everything else sucks of course, especially information. In Germany there's a character called 'Max the mole' who is used to indicate construction works and consequent impacts on service. This character is so well known that they sell a cuddly toy version...



Sorry for going off topic. I sincerely hope Navan gets its railway connection. It isn't too much to ask.

Transport21 Fan

murphaph wrote:

It is supposed to be a double track to Dunboyne, right? I take it they just haven't got the second track down.

It looks like a second track is going in alright. I guess this is probably for work trains to park on or something.

murphaph wrote:

I'd scond IE's technocal ability. Nobody has ever really called that into question. Everything else sucks of course.

All their imagination and vision goes into hanging baskets and Ballet Dancers. There is nothing else left after that, well not without them needing a few hundred million to even consider a new idea.

Get this, as of Friday Sligo railcars are already delayed and weeks behind their schedule to enter service. No idea why, but they all went back to Dublin from the yard at Longford there and 2900's were brought back up. They could be in service as I type this, but the mystery of the delay continues. Sligo train staff were told they were to be in service on the route two weeks ago. Instead they are still running the most filthy and horrible Mrk2's with half the jacks broken and toilet rolls just throw in. It's a serious hygyine issue and is completely unacceptable.

As usual, no apology and nobody says nothing about anything.

markf909

murphaph wrote:

In Germany there's a character called 'Max the mole' who is used to indicate construction works and consequent impacts on service. This character is so well known that they sell a cuddly toy version...

We should get Barry the disinformation Bear teddies done up...

Victor

murphaph wrote:

It is supposed to be a double track to Dunboyne, right? I take it they just haven't got the second track down.

Yes, however, they are doing it slightly oddly with a short section of wrong way running from Clonsilla to the canal.

See the pinky / purpley bit here: http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/dunboyne/Alignment%20Plans/Alignment%20Plan%20No%20A001.pdf

The current work is primarily to put in a turn back for Clonsilla, which just happens to be the same as the proposed layout.

murphaph

Ah now I see. Thanks for that.

Navan Junction

lostexpectation wrote:

so anyway why have meathontrack and p11 gone so quiet on navan rail?

The Scoping Study will be out over the next few weeks - no point in doing or saying much until it's published, as what's in it has massive implications on where things go from here.

It won't deliver the link but it will put some shape on things, and at least help define what needs to be done next

lostexpectation

DerekP11 wrote:

Can't speak for Meath on Track, but will speak for Rail Users Ireland (formerly Platform 11)

We were very vocal about the Navan railway from early 2005 to 2006. During that period we assisted all interested parties including MOT. We surveyed the route and put it in the public domain as best we could. We also prepared a report on reopening the Navan - Drogheda route to passenger traffic in order to serve Dublin. This report was shot down by Irish Rail on the basis of the Dept. of Transport not being willing to fund it on the basis of the "direct" route being planned for reopening. There was also the issue of "capacity" in Connolly mentioned. But we put this down to incomptence/unwillingness/inability on Irish Rails part as we had designed a timetable to facilitate it.

Through the course of our endeavours we witnessed political gombeenism, stupidity and outright conflict of interest. The M3 project has made the provision of a direct rail service to Navan very difficult. In September 2005 (a mere 2 months before the launch of T21) Irish Rail were trumpeting the Pace park n ride as the solution to Navan.(inclusive of an M3 toll to access it.) Now they insist they will go all the way to Navan.Overall the process has been mindnumbing and borderline soul destroying. I am on public record as not believing that a railway to Navan will open in 2015 because there has been a litany of broken promises in terms of dates, there was never any real committment and the continuing slowing of the econonmy will provide the Government with an excuse. History is repeating itself.

Rail Users Ireland continues to believe that Navan - Drogheda is the most workable solution in the circumstances. Our position on the direct route has not changed despite what Irish Rail have publically stated. We feel that we have put our position on public record, generated debate and the fight is now down to other parties. We will continue to support any of them.

good good, so are there no opportunities to campaign at the moment?

spacetweek

Victor wrote:

See the pinky / purpley bit here: http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/dunboyne/Alignment%20Plans/Alignment%20Plan%20No%20A001.pdf

I've just been "perusing" those plans, and maybe this has been boxed off before, but how in the hell is the railway going to continue to Navan with the bloody M3 roundabout in the way? In the plan, the rail line is shown up on an embankment, but the roundabout is also on an embankment. How's this kaboodle gonna work? Are they sabotaging the yoke or what?

Xyndrix

No, surprisingly they're not sabotaging it here actually. The M3 design facilitates the railway at this point. If you look at the plans for the roundabout again you'll see it says: "Proposed Overbridges To Be Constructed By Others For The M3 Contract". That's the answer to the roundabout problem.

Of course, it shouldn't matter whether they're there or not because the councillors and consultants tell us the railway is not constrained by anything. Sure, isn't it going to go across the M3 anyway, bridges or no bridges, head off to Ratoath or Ashbourne or maybe both, and even if it doesn't do that, it will still have to cross the M3 anyway if only so it can swing around the east of Dunshaughlin for no good reason other than there's already some zoned land over there. After that it can cross back over the M3 (bridges? sure that's no problem) and continue on its way to Navan. But they might save money on that bridge by instead keeping east of Dunshaughlin and following the M3 through the Tara/Skryne valley (gradients? again not a problem), they can then completely finish off the Rath Lugh monument by taking more land on that side for the railway and if they find any more ancient sites on the way, well clearly that wouldn't be a problem either.

So, all in all, there's absolutely nothing that could sabotage this project as it can get through any and every obstacle that might stand in its path.

Prof_V

Victor wrote: »

Yes, however, they are doing it slightly oddly with a short section of wrong way running from Clonsilla to the canal.

I think this is what's called a double-lead junction, and it's reasonably standard where it isn't viable to grade-separate the junction, though I don't know of any other examples in Ireland.
It's the third type of junction shown at http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Bellgrove1989.pdf#page=30 (called a "parallel junction" there).

The first type ("double junction", though, confusingly, I think "double-lead junction" also gets used for it) is the classic type of junction between two double tracks, where one track crosses another on the level; the trouble with this is that the crossing is hard to maintain and limits speeds.

The second type ("singled junction", but more commonly called a single-lead junction) was British Rail's answer to these problems in the 1980s (I'm not sure about use elsewhere, though I don't think there are any in Ireland); the diverging line is single-track through the junction, so the junction itself is simpler and doesn't need crossings. The main problem with this is that a train entering the diverging line can meet one leaving it head-on, which isn't possible with the other junction types. There were three accidents like this in Britain between 1989 and 1991 - the link is a report on the first one. I don't think the British use that junction layout in new installations any more, though I believe some earlier ones still exist.

The double-lead junction, which gives a similar degree of protection to a double junction without the same level of complication, replaced the single-lead junction (and may have been used prior to this in cases that required more capacity; I'm not altogether sure).

Xyndrix

A letter in the Meath Chronicle this week on this issue. It's refreshing (indeed amazing) to find that not all councillors in Meath are useless idiots.

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/story.asp?stID=1627&cid=128&cid2=

Railway route could have accommodated motorway


(Editor, Meath Chronicle)

Dear sir - I refer to a recent article in the Meath Chronicle by Paul Murphy: `Iarnrod Eireann outlines Navan railway route`. So Iarnrod Eireann has decided the preferred and most sensible route, should be the one chosen in the 1860s when slide rules and pencils were high tech instead of computers and picks, shovels and wheelbarrows were used instead of JCBs and bulldozers and workers using horses and carts moved thousands of tonnes of rock and clay instead of today`s diesel guzzling carbon producing large dump trucks.
Shortly after the famine in 1860, engineers and workers with no agenda other than common sense choose the best routes from Dublin to Navan and Athboy for the railway.
At a recent conference on climate change the principal speakers included Minister John Gormley TD and Mr Duncan Stewart. Mr Stewart informed the meeting that for every one tonne of cement produced one tonne of carbon is released into our atmosphere, thereby worsening global warming. I asked `if we accept this is so, why are we building the M3 motorway instead of the railway to Navan and beyond` to which both the minister and Mr Stewart described the M3 as madness and irresponsible planning.
With the Bali conference on global warming, peak oil and the finite supply of fossil fuels reaching $100 a barrel it is hard to argue against either the minister or Duncan Stewart.
Thousands of motorists drive each day on the N3 to Dublin and are severely stressed and must surely question those responsible in the Dept of Environment, the Dept of Transport, the National Roads Authority, Meath County Council and those politicians as to why we are going full speed to build this stupid and costly M3 motorway instead of rebuilding the much less expensive railway from Dublin to Navan. This is absolute madness because to build the M3 will create more carbon and destroy the archaeology in the Tara Skryne valley. In 100 years or less the people will look back will ask why were these decisions allowed to go unchallenged by the EU. If the railway had just been put back on the embankment which was built in the 1860s (and now to be upgraded) the trains from Kells and Navan would now be travelling to Dublin carrying thousands of would be motorists/commuters each way.
This M3 is a most irresponsible way of playing our part in reducing carbon emissions. This latest news from Iarnrod Eireann about replacing the track on the old embankment also questions the decision to build the M3 through the Tara Skryne valley. Could some of those `experts` who proposed the five or six route options for the M3 explain to us why the old railway route was not included as one of the possible routes?
Surely it would have made more sense and avoided delays and millions of euro in legal and archaeology costs to build the M3 along the route of the railway. Then again, that would have made common sense and there`s little room for common sense or sentiment where politicians/parties have to look after their friends and/or developers.
Common sense seems to be in short supply amongst those in EirGrid also as they propose putting their 400KV lines above ground in County Meath. With the M3 and now EirGrid, we have had more than enough of bad planning of infrastructure in County Meath to last us a lifetime.

Yours,

Colr Phillip Cantwell,

Trim