Thought on the Navan Railway and the M3

trellheim

the paperwork for the railway has gone online boys check it out at
http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dunboyne_commuter_rail.asp

Winters

Why on earth is Ashbourne included in that plan? It makes an absolute mockery of some well thought out ideas.

A deviation to Ashboune makes the Navan line undesirable. Ashbourne currently has a direct HQDC short journey time to the M50 and this will be served by a metrowest P+R at Huntstown which will be more than adequate.

Navan Junction

Photo below..

Tadhg Crowley

The key goal of the MASTER plan is to promote and enforce "sustainability" across sectors and non-Dublin centred transport services are crucial to that effort.
By serving as many population centres as possible in the locality (e.g. Ratoath and Ashbourne) to make the rail-line as viable as possible (based on a larger catchment area) and most importantly to create new local journeys, combined with regeneration of local enterprises (e.g. upto 200 new businesses over 5-7 years) we are reducing the long distance commuting patterns and can help Meath people to work in Meath, therefore to regenerate an independent and self-sufficient local economy.

The connections to Ratoath and Ashbourne are "very desirable" not only for people living in Ratoath and Ashbourne, but for anyone in Meath who wants to travel to these growing population centres or for those who would prefer to work in either town than to travel on a stressful commute into Dublin City Centre. It thus also significantly reduces car journeys throughout the county.

It is a "local transport network" serving the Meath locality, its public and its local enterprises, thus promoting more local journeys and reducing Meaths dependence on Dublin.

Re. the alignment, it is the Meath County Council's alignment, from their County Development Plan. The only addition is the service to Kells.

Regarding the aspects of journey time (less important where local journeys are more regular than long-distance one's) this alignment is only 8km longer than the current proposal and adds less than 10 minutes to the journey...to Dublin.
But again the key is that we are serving Meath people and its enterprises and not attempting to increase the journeys to Dublin which are as I said unsustainable.

In addition a "spur" to Ashbourne or Ratoath would require the same "road, motorway and water crossing bridges " that you have pointed to. This would also isolate Ashbourne and Ratoath from the rest of Meath thus, further increasing their dependence on Dublin. Meath people living in Navan who want to work in Ashbourne would also have to change trains to get there, if a new and separate spur line were created.

Overall the route via Batterstown will be far less viable than the route via Ashbourne and Ratoath and will reinforce unsustainable ways of living, commuting and the resultant unsustainable development patterns that come with a Dublin-centred transport network that also reduces quality of life for Meath people.

Sustainability is a complex concept, and not easy to grasp at first. It requires holistic thinking in all aspects, and understanding of how all aspects of planning and development can have negative impacts throughout the system. This especially applies in transport design.

The rail alignment and services we have proposed in the Meath MASTER plan are "essential" to allow Meath's local economy to become more self-sustaining, self-determining and prosperous in the face of the threats of Peak Oil and Global Warming.

We must stop designing and planning in a way that makes us more dependent on fossil fuel, more dependent on working in Dublin, more dependent on foreign investment, more disconnected from our home, and our communities.

MarkoP11

I tuned out at Light Rail for Kilmessan, really that undermines any credibilty possible to the proposal. You would fit the entire population of Kilmessan in one single Luas tram, you might need two depending on where you draw the boundary but still its a tiny village

Interchange at Bellinteer? Or should I call it Cannistown, again its a row of bunaglows on a narrow road hardly suitable doesn't make any sense anyway

These kind of dreams undermine the work done by others seeking the construction of seriously needed justified infrastructure which would be used. Pie in the sky stuff is wasting everyones time

Meath CC have 4 separate routes to Navan by rail, 3 of which are crayon map jobs. Irish Rail took no part in the crayon operation, the actual physical possibilty of one of those routes have been proven impossible

trellheim

This should be fun to watch would anyone like some popcorn ?

Justifying the bend is going to make me laugh. Guaranteed . Bring it on.

Xyndrix

MarkoP11 wrote:

I tuned out at Light Rail for Kilmessan, really that undermines any credibilty possible to the proposal. You would fit the entire population of Kilmessan in one single Luas tram, you might need two depending on where you draw the boundary but still its a tiny village

I presume the only reason for that would be to bring passengers from Trim (and Athboy perhaps) to link in with trains from Navan to Dublin using the former line. An interesting idea for the far future perhaps but not something that's really relevant to a plan for getting rail to Navan at present.

The Ashbourne deviation is ridiculous. The amazing thing is that the idea still crops up and just won't go away. Including it in the plans for a line to Navan would probably do a great job of sinking the project at a later stage, and having to start all over again trying to get rail to Navan after several more years delay and wasted effort in the meantime. And that's something the M3 toll operator would be quite happy to see, I'm sure.

Zebra3

Navan Junction wrote:

Photo below..

Will there be a second track joining up with the Maynooth line?

Navan Junction

Zebra3 wrote:

Will there be a second track joining up with the Maynooth line?

Not sure yet to be honest - according to workmen there the single line branching off the junction will double immediately north of the bridge - I just haven't had a chance to check yet.

But the word here, and from newspaper reports is that it is to be double

Tadhg Crowley wrote:

In addition a "spur" to Ashbourne or Ratoath would require the same "road, motorway and water crossing bridges " that you have pointed to.

On the way there, of course - but under your proposal you also have to duplicate the amount of rail on the way back around the curve.

Almost twice the amount of track to do the same thing, bring people all the way east only to then bring them back all the way west

By the way, that line on the map that Meath county council crayoned was never more than a line on a map - their words not mine. And they have regretted it since

Tadhg Crowley wrote:

The connections to Ratoath and Ashbourne are "very desirable" ... for anyone in Meath who wants to travel to these growing population centres or for those who would prefer to work in either town than to travel on a stressful commute into Dublin City Centre.

There is damn all work in Ashbourne that you couldn't find in Navan (ie shops), and there is nothing in Ratoath other than a couple of pubs, restaurants and a few Super-valus as well

Tadhg Crowley wrote:

The rail alignment and services we have proposed in the Meath MASTER plan are "essential" to allow Meath's local economy to become more self-sustaining, self-determining and prosperous in the face of the threats of Peak Oil and Global Warming.

We must stop designing and planning in a way that makes us more dependent on fossil fuel, more dependent on working in Dublin, more dependent on foreign investment, more disconnected from our home, and our communities.

The Ashbourne deviation has nothing to do with this - other than that I reckon that Ratoath is a classic example of an area that should not have been developed, and should not be developed any more than it is.

It could be argued that running a railway all over the place actually contributes to developments all over the place

The development that occured in Ratoath should have occured in Dunshaughlin - and that former village should not be developed any further

By the way, why a deviation to Ratoath, and not one to say, Trim?

Victor

Navan Junction wrote:

By the way, why a deviation to Ratoath, and not one to say, Trim?

Because.

Almost twice the amount of track to do the same thing, bring people all the way east only to then bring them back all the way west

Navan Junction

I just can't understand what the fixation is on Ashbourne, I really can't..

Xyndrix

Navan Junction wrote:

I just can't understand what the fixation is on Ashbourne, I really can't..

Yes, it's really bizarre. In a sane world, people would just look at the laughable curve on the proposed deviation and immediately dismiss it as a crazy idea. But for some reason, it gets taken seriously, becomes an issue of crucial importance, politicians raise it endlessly, it seems like the Navan rail project stands or falls on what happens Ashbourne. How did this crazy notion come into being in the first place? Was it Meath County Council putting that crayon line on the 2001 Development Plan? or did it start earlier? Wherever it emerged from, it just refuses to die.

Navan Junction

When the promises were flying about reopening the link in 1998/99, Meath County Council started to think of what they could do to advance the case.

Someone in there had the brainwave that if they linked it into Ashbourne then the case for the link might be enhanced. IÉ told them that it was daft and not to insert it into the County Dev Plan - but they threw it in anyway, thinking what harm, it's an option

It was a long shot, dreamed up to convince the Government to move, it predated much of the house building up here, it wasn't thought through, it never amounted to than a crayon line on a map

But somewhere along the line it was seized upon by some not as an option that might enhance the viability of the project, but almost a fundamental prerequisite to even bothering with the project at all.

To some delivering the deviation seems more important than delivering the railway line itself - interestingly, it has never been an issue in Ashbourne

The best example of how it has mutated was Dominic Hannigans proposal to scrap the old line entirely and to go Navan direct to Ashbourne and then across to Swords and to tunnel in to the city centre from there - imagine how cheap that would be

Sometimes the rush to crayons leads to overlooking that the main reason that a railway line to Navan directly from Dublin is a serious proposition nowadays is that the old alignment exists and that it was built to the same standards as the Cork Dublin and Belfast Dublin lines..

It might be overgrown and derelict, but without the old alignment nobody would be talking about a direct rail link to Navan. Similarly using the old alignment will see significant engineering works - but much less so than if it didn't exist and another route had to be chosen.

Either way, the only really important thing due in the Scoping Study is the selection of a preferred route - so we'll get confirmation if the Ashbourne deviation is still alive in the minds of officialdom very soon

Hotblack Desiato

Tadhg Crowley wrote:

The key goal of the MASTER plan is to promote and enforce "sustainability" across sectors and non-Dublin centred transport services are crucial to that effort.

Like it or not, Dublin is the capital city, so until you change that, it will be the start or end of a huge number of journeys. I think the use of the term 'Dublin-centric' says more about those using it and less about our transport system, to be honest.

DerekP11

I have tried so so hard to stay out of this, but I can't. However I'll keep my input very brief.

Tadgh

Let me remind you that the viability of a rail line is not just based on running it through population centres. It also depends very heavily on the journey time between end points. The people want to go to Dublin. Thats why the N3 is choca-bloc.I think your master plan (in association with Brian Guckian) is daft, in terms of rail infrastructure in Meath. I can't put it any plainer than that. Its too broad and attempts to create a utopian environment that completely negates the mistakes already made in relation to planning and employment.

As for Light rail?

What planet are you guys on?

I'll ignore it, like everything Brian Guckian comes up with. Why? Because we have a Governmental system that knows damn all about transport planning. Transport providers that couldn't plan a fuel refill in a Texan oil field and then you guys with hair brained rail schemes that only serve to muddy the waters even further.

Xyndrix

Thanks for that detailed explanation, Navan Junction. It's really mutated into a monster from quite humble beginnings. Hopefully, this Scoping Study will finally kill it off. If it doesn't, then you'd have to ask yourself is it the Navan line itself they're really trying to kill off.

trellheim

told you this would be funny. [ as long as we believe this is fantasy ] Sadly it is drifting towards reality .

Ashbourne is the best-connected place in Meath by a long long mile. Everyone there has a car and uses it; they won't give up their shiny new motorway for anything. Put a station on it there and you could aptly name it "The White Elephant"

Victor

I think a solid bus service along the following routes would remove the 'need' for the deviation.

*Dunshaughlin-Ratoath-Ashbourne-Swords-Airport

*Dunshaughlin-Ratoath-Ashbourne-Finglas (Luas)-City

Extending Metro North from Swords to Ashbourne would be about the same amount of track as the deviation.

lostexpectation

well the their new plan gets rid of the strange loop to ashbourne/ratoath derekp11 otherwise they have it going the way its going to go...



why didn't they have the motorway follow the rail line to go past trim, rather then through a section of country with no large towns near for good stretch from dunshaughlin to navan

DerekP11

lostexpectation wrote:

well the their new plan gets rid of the strange loop to ashbourne/ratoath derekp11 otherwise they have it going the way its going to go.

They're still crackpots.

Victor

lostexpectation wrote:

why didn't they have the motorway follow the rail line to go past trim, rather then through a section of country with no large towns near for good stretch from dunshaughlin to navan

The suggestion is that it benefits certain landowners.

strassenwolf

Navan Junction wrote:

Why not service Ashbourne by way of a spur rather than a deviation if you deem it nessessary, say from Pace?

That makes a lot more sense. If the original line were actually back in place, there should be scope for looking at how to make even better use of it.

Once it's built, look at the possibility of building a spur. Maybe there is scope, eventually, for an Ashbourne-Ratoath-Batterstown spur?

Winters wrote:

A deviation to Ashboune makes the Navan line undesirable. Ashbourne currently has a direct HQDC short journey time to the M50 and this will be served by a metrowest P+R at Huntstown which will be more than adequate.

I don't think this is the way to approach it, and the spur proposal from NJ looks better. Suggesting to people that they should drive to a P+R, get on the metrowest, then change again to get into town, isn't going to get many takers. Having to change just to even get into the city makes such a journey very undesirable.

popebenny16

A proper bus service Rathoath-Ashborne-Swords is needed, and has been for a decade.

As for the "Sacred Ireland" stuff, I feel that NJ is the only man to rule the definitive line on all this but to me it's just nuts. No matter what Mr. Gluckian's "fan" may say here in my opinion that plan is the sort of thing that ruins the credibility of lobby groups.

BTW, why isnt this in the Infrastructure Forum?

MarkoP11

strassenwolf wrote:

I don't think this is the way to approach it, and the spur proposal from NJ looks better. Suggesting to people that they should drive to a P+R, get on the metrowest, then change again to get into town, isn't going to get many takers. Having to change just to even get into the city makes such a journey very undesirable.

Considering most would drive to a railway station car park anyway given the spwarl its much the same really to shoot down to the Metro park and ride, and in all certainty it would be quicker than the mystery tour via Clonsilla

spacetweek

There are 3 options here: deviation to Ashbourne(really bad), spur to Ashbourne (okayish - results in reduced frequency to Navan - remember the Clonsilla-Navan line is already itself a spur from Dublin-Maynooth) and shuttle to Ashbourne - the train shuttles back and forth from Dunshaughlin to Ashbourne via Rathoath. The shuttle has the most advantages - it doesn't affect the service frequency or journey time of the trip to Navan.

strassenwolf wrote:

I don't think this is the way to approach it, and the spur proposal from NJ looks better. Suggesting to people that they should drive to a P+R, get on the metrowest, then change again to get into town, isn't going to get many takers. Having to change just to even get into the city makes such a journey very undesirable.

This is true, but there'll likely eventually be a Luas from Liffey Junction as far as the N2/M50 junction. People arriving at the P&R won't be getting MW, they'll be getting Luas as it heads striaght into town from there.

If combined with the shuttle I mentioned, this arrangement would result in a good arrangment for Ashbourne. Bus and car users would go for the P&R, train users to the Navan line on the shuttle.

dermo88

Just had to weigh in on this one. The moment I saw the Tadhg Crowley proposal, I was horrified. The deviation via Ashbourne will merely serve to drive passengers away from a link. Its a bit like the current "handicap" facing trains going from Dublin to Arklow, where they do a dogs leg diversion by Rathdrum, but thats imposed by the forces of nature. Here its an even worse notion, one imposed by the minds of men. To truly compound matters, men, one of whom claims to be an "Independent Transport Researcher", and who should know better. But sadly, the game of crayons on maps goes on in his mind. Meanwhile, the good work done by Meathontrack, and Platform11 is ignored in the interests of political expediency, and they are the guys who have actually gone on the ground to photograph, survey and report on it. Thats where the answers are, and deviating from the course of action laid out will lead to the same crap that lead to having two unconnected Luas lines, a DART to Greystones where a Diesel would have done the job just as well, transport ministers going on Tea breaks in Tuam to keep the peasants happy, and a ticketing system that would make a Nigerian transport minister happy, while it rips off the punters. Meanwhile, we get the crap.

The original alignment is the best. Its of a high standard, a mainline standard, and it is still in place. Granted, a lot of work needs to be done.

Keep it simple. Go by the direct route, get the passengers and it will work just fine. Sending them in all directions, to suit the whims of landowners and politicians is the doctrine of divide and conquer. Both the road and the rail line are needed. I don't buy this crap of oil running out, environmental concerns, etc, because car users and rail users are of equal importance in this equation. You don't see the Germans, French or Italians not using their cars for the train, because they use BOTH, and use them at appropriate occasions.

I don't like the delays on this and other projects throughout the country, but good road and rail links are crucial to a modern functioning economy. Rail users should not attack road users, and vice versa. Both complement each other. Both compete, and through competition each gets hungrier for success.

Xyndrix

Oh my god, this guy is at it again...

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/story.asp?stID=675&cid=126&cid2=

22/09/2007

TD wants study into reopening of Navan to Kingscourt line

A CALL for a study on the economic impact of the reopening of the Navan to Kingscourt railway line has been made by Deputy Shane McEntee.
The Fine Gael TD was calling on the Minister for Transport, Noel Dempsey, to initiate a study on the future of the line,
"The Navan to Nobber and Kingscourt railway line has been closed for a number of years. Iarnrod Eireann advised me recently they have no plans to reopen the line at this time. They are, however, continuing to maintain level crossings and bridges on the line to protect it for future use. The platform in Nobber has also been retained by Iarnrod Eireann should a station be required in the future," he said.
Deputy McEntee said Meath has become a county of two distinct parts. The commuter belt of south and east Meath continues to suffer from the dramatic effects of rapid development, while the northern end of Meath centred on villages like Nobber, Kilmainhamwood, Carlanstown, Rathkenny, Lobinstown, Drumconrath, Moynalty and Slane, which all suffer from a lack of investment. "Plans to reopen the rail line to Kingscourt from Navan would help kick-start economic development across north Meath, an area with great potential," he said.
Deputy McEntee pointed out that decisions would be made shortly on the location of the new regional hospital for the north-east to cater for the people of the region and for a new orbital ring road to avoid traffic having to use the congested M50.
"These are two major projects. I believe the time is now also appropriate for a feasibility study to be undertaken that would look at the economic benefits that would flow from the reopening of the Navan to Kingscourt railway line," he said. "Amongst the issues that could be considered in a economic study would be the impact a rail line would have on the economy of north Meath by encouraging investment in new enterprises in the area, its impact on the tourism potential of the area and its obvious benefit to the many commuters in the region."
He said that there were a number of industries in north Meath and Cavan which currently transported large amounts of their goods by road. "The re-opening of the line might be attractive to these industries while reducing the volume of heavy goods vehicles on an already over-stretched roads network.
"I have written to the Minister for Transport, Noel Dempsey, suggesting he commission a study on the feasibility of reopening the Navan to Nobber and Kingscourt rail line against the particular background of the imminent decision on the new regional hospital and the proposal for an outer orbital ring road," he said.

A cheerleader for the M3's current route, if you asked him about delivering the Navan line, he'd probably tell you the old alignment was unusable because of the sewerage pipes at Dunsany, or because there were only goats or something living along it, and earnestly insist on the critical importance of including Ashbourne and Ratoath in any plans for a rail line to Navan. Politicians in Meath can't even get the line to Navan yet they spend their time on nonsense like this :rolleyes:

EDIT: Added text of article

MarkoP11

According to the Meath County Manager I was dreaming about the sewer pipe, then again I have a photo

"I'm sick of hearing about some supposed sewer pipe on the Navan rail alignment"

Is that a hint that there is some even more crazy alignment in the works?

Then again

"The pipe line was built to facilitate the reopening of the rail line."

Of course they never bothered to check the rules on pipes under rail lines so the statement is almost certaint to be proven false

Then again the Meath Development plan was meant to protect the alignment, what of the Meath CC's trip to the High Court when someone tried to build on it, when it suits them the talk the talk but when its out of view, well they don't care

Navan Junction

Take it that link (not loading for me) is to Shane McEntee's piece waffling on about a study for the Kingscourt line - he won't even push for the spray train on that particular line so that article can be totally and utterly disregarded

Xyndrix

Navan Junction wrote:

Take it that link (not loading for me) is to Shane McEntee's piece waffling on about a study for the Kingscourt line - he won't even push for the spray train on that particular line so that article can be totally and utterly disregarded

Yep. The very man. Added text now.

MarkoP11 wrote:

Then again the Meath Development plan was meant to protect the alignment, what of the Meath CC's trip to the High Court when someone tried to build on it, when it suits them the talk the talk but when its out of view, well they don't care

I can't figure out Meath CC's behaviour on this. It's as if they want the Navan line and they don't care about it at the same time. There's a complete lack of a coherent plan for delivery of the line and also the sense that some people there seem only interested in making things more complicated and difficult for the project.