"Don't go broke with a Queen in your hand". Three spots with QQ and AQ (Low Content)

BigCityBanker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Nah, Noel - I disagree. There are a number of different lines that could be taken. And the argument to raising the flop is there (even if I don't agree with it myself).

agree - im actually very indifferent about this hand. I dont really think Gordon fires the turn against a known villian unless he has them cooked. To counter this then the length of time you spent in the tank invites Gordon to fire the turn again. Its pretty thin to call him down from here cos you may well be drawing dead. I accept that we lose value by raising any street - but to take this line regularly against a tricky villian with a wide preflop range youd want your balls to be dragging off the floor, a wallet the size of an overnight bag, and the intestinal fortitude of a horse. On this basis I prefer to become the aggressor at some point in the hand.

Its somewhat irrelevant to this spot but against a villian like Gordon I 3bet pre alot of the time in this spot as I want to take control of the hand. But thats cos im generally more comfortable being the agressor in a hand.

cardshark202

God this whole thing about raising for information which is essentially what some of you want to do in hand 3 has beed done to death. You can cr this flop vs a super aggro player if you plan to call a shove or a big fish who will stack off with worse a lot, but generally it sucks balls.

cardshark202

raising>>>folding>>>calling preflop in hand 3 unless you think you have a huge edge postflop which seems unlikely

Wombatman

LuckyLloyd wrote:

We have created the possibillity. That is still two pot sized shells and the stack sizes are awkward for the river if I call. So you might say I am reserving my right to reassess the turn?

Turn is a blank (unless he raised pre with 64s and pot bet the nuts on the turn????)
Unless he is giving off crazy tells what exactly are you reassessing here? Why not stick to your plan for the hand?

LuckyLloyd

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BigCityBanker

Wombatman wrote:

unless he raised pre with 64s and pot bet the nuts on the turn?

I kid you not - villian will not fold 64 preflop. check out his blog ghanlon.blogspot.com which details some recent mega pots with 64. and yes - he would fire turn with it - his hand is perfectly disguised.

Captain Tom

yeah shove hand 1, although i dont think it's as clear clear cut a decision as others seem to. i dont like it very much after a tight player snapshoves ~57bbs. i havent played live much in the last 6 months or so but im pretty sure a solidish tight live player will give at least some consideration before shoving JJ/AK while stacks are relatively deep (especially compared to other live tournies). the fact that there is another 8.5k or so in the pot between the limpers and paddy makes it easier, especially since were in great shape vs paddy's range.

im going back and forth in hand 2. i kinda want to fold w/o a better read. but then i remember all the retarded stuff live players do and feel happy stacking off. i prob just call and call any turn. he'll show up with worse aces sometimes and it lets him do something stupid with KK/QQ. you're only about 100bb deep effective which makes it easier too.

hand 3 i think i just call and shove any non ace or king river. i dont fold this for a couple reasons.

1. given the fact that you beleive he is somewhat bluff happy.

2. he can bet betting worse hands for protection/value. most live players will bet this turn with KQ/QJ/QT and possibly even JJ. check/calling live is usually taken as a sign of weakness (and it often is) and live players will fire again with these hands most of the time.

i prefer shoving blank rivers rather than check/calling because i think theres more value in letting him call down with worse than bluffing. it gives him the chance to make a hero call with 99-JJ and doesnt let him check down worse queens.

i like checking if the river's an ace because if he's bluffing this is such an obvious spot to fire again, and if he has KQ/QJ/QT he's almost certainly gonna fold or AK/AJ/AT he's probably gonna value shove anyway

a lot of the time i probably come across as a station regarding live hands, but honestly if you're never folding TPGK or overpairs w/o decent reads and with less than like 120bbs you're not doing much wrong (as bad as that sounds).

also trippy sorry if this comes across as condescending towards your ability. ive never played against you so im just giving my general perception of live players.

LuckyLloyd

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Moneymaker

Hand 1: Ship it

Hand 2: Tough spot but i'd probably fold.

Hand 3: I'm definetly raising the flop here. I haven't played with Gordon a lot, but i'm fully aware his raising range is very wide and he's got a lot of moves. and I think you need to raise and see how strong(or weak his hand) is. Repeating what's been said already but I think you have to raise on the flop. Do you really want to play a big pot and have to make some very tough decisions with a vunerable one pair? You've stated you're playing tight and he's fired a pot bet on the turn. That said, Gordon isn't one who checks. AQ could be good here, but i'd fold and wait for a better spot.

Captain Tom

oops thought he had 300 for some reason. stack sizes are really awkward here. i still prefer betting the river. maybe b/f like 130. you'll be getting sick odds but he's never bluffing or v/shoving worse so i think it's ok.

Trippie

Wow I'm popular today.

First off I was the button and I think you limped utg llyod so that sorts out the positions

Now there has been a lot of talk of me firing away with air but as llyod mentioned in the beginning I have been rocking it up this session and any time I have shown down anything I have had the goods so perhaps it is image I portray but generally nobody took me for a hand all night which worked in my favor.

However if i was bluffing I think llyod knows he is going to have to make a decision for his entire stack on a further street as if he calls I will most likely fire again and if a scare card doesnt come on the river I will be firing again against llyod because I know he is capable of folding big hands. What I also presume was going through you're head was that you know if you do come over the top I am capable of re-shoving it and if that was to happen my range has to be narrowed to Aces,Kings,AQ,77,33 and maybe KQ or a compete bluff and I just dont think you would be beating enough hands enough of the time to find a call there if i do ship it.

Now onto the turn as you said earlier llyod you check called for this very reason and figured you were good so how can a 5 scare you? If you were behind on the flop you still are and if you were ahead then most likely you still are but then again you know calling the 100 means that most likely you are going to be making a decision for you're entire stack on the river with just one pair if you dont hit and thats not a spot most people like to be in

Killme00

Gordon,

How about the hand from your point of view? It would be good to read what you put Lyoyd on and your plan for the hand!!

Tom

Trippie

OK then

im in for a small amount and doing well, i think my stack is circa 800 at this stage. the table has been playing solid enough with a lot of respect being given to people except for joe who went nuts with a 6 on a KK66 board after paul(se regular tighter than llyod) sticks it all-in for 400/500.

llyod limps utg, two more callers and im on the button, i have been playing considerably tighter than i normally would and I am not in spew mode yet.

I make it 10 and get 4 callers inlucding llyod. to be honest he was the only one i was afraid of as the other will limp into any pot with atc and i know i dont have to be afraid of a limp reraise.

The flop comes Q 7 3 rainbow and this is a nice flop for me as i doubt anyone has a lot of it. Llyod does his usuall dwell up for a few seconds but checks and its checked around to me. I bet out 40 thinking i may take it down right here and now and he goes into the tank. at first he looked as if he was thinking of coming over the top of me or not but as time went and the longer he took i realised he just had a Q and not a set of any sort. At first I was thinking it was KQ as I didnt think AQ would take so long to call and QJ/Q10 may find a fold and he was trying to figure out where I am in the hand

He eventually calls and this scares the crap out of everyone in between us and they all fold. The turn is a brick a 5 and again he thinks for a brief moment and then checks to me. Earlier on in the night we were talking and llyod was saying that he doent like playing the no-limit game with peter as he constantly check raises him on the flop when he has over-pairs and he is not comfortable getting it in for 200+ bb with just one pair. This went through my head at the time. Llyod has about 400 left and i figure if i fire out roughly 100 or more he will know that unless he hits his kicker or Q he will be facing another pot sized bet on the river and there is no way he could call then.

I make it 100 then and he goes into the tank for what seems like an eternity. I figure he is not calling but he is going through all the possibilities of combiations of what I have and whether or not I am at as he knows i could well be. there was talk that i was squirming in my seat but it was taking so long to make the decision that two things were going through my head.

1) whats the story with calling clock in this place?is it frowned upon and considering i know llyod i decided to not bother and then

2) If he comes over the top for 400 quid can I call. I then began to run all the hand combinations and i figure I had to be ahead if he did and that I would call.

He eventually folded and seemed annoyed with himself in how the hand played out. I asked him had he KQ and he said no he AQ. which was there or there abouts.

The main point of debate in this hand seems whether or not to come over the top of me on the flop. This seems like the age old debate of taking a risk and building a pot or being happy to take it down right now and minimizing the risk. Depending on the table, you're mood and you're confidence both of these approaches can feel like the correct plays to make on seperate occasions and it comes down to what you're expectations are at that point.

Originally llyod's expectation was to check call and let me hang myself however maybe its a testament to his ability but he was able to re-evaluate the turn and realised that the other option of trying to take the pot down there and then would probably of been the better option considering he was oop and misjudging my willingness to put bet bigs in on every street.

phantom_lord

3, raising the flop is really bad.

3bet pf btw.

jbravado

3 bet pre has been quoted by a few posters who advice I think is usually spot on imo but I really dont like it in this spot.

LL I dont understand what happened in this hand-u call on the flop feeling you have the best of it-I presume at this stage your hoping Gordon will plough more money in there on the turn.
When the 5 falls do you think it has made his hand?
Sometimes one pair can be a made hand against the right player in the right situation-irrespective of the amount of bbs your playing.

ditpoker

results?!?!? what did u have gordon?

Trippie

I had llyod beat, i told him what i had after he got up from the table and it seemed to put his mind to rest

ditpoker

Trippie wrote:

I had llyod beat, i told him what i had after he got up from the table and it seemed to put his mind to rest

lol... dedication to a bluff!!

ianmc38

Hand 3 - 3bet preflop.

Jaden

Hand 1. Ship it. You re probably vs TT/JJ and AK. Insta-calls are nearly always AK here. QQ is 45% to take this hand if the other hand estimates are accurate.

Hand 2 & 3 - Dunno. Cash is for Donkeys.

LuckyLloyd

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Moneymaker

5,7 sounds like Gordon alright. Nice laydown. As for hand 2, I think thats a standard laydown giving the situation and how tight the villian is playing. Bad luck with the QQ in hand 1.