"Don't go broke with a Queen in your hand". Three spots with QQ and AQ (Low Content)

LuckyLloyd

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BigCityBanker

Hand 1 - In that situation in that tournament im pretty sure this is an easy jamm. In a different event i might consider it further.

Hand 2 - is there a mistake in the way you have described the hand? Is the villian UTG or where? This is so read dependent. This can be a set/FD/two pair/ worse A/better A. Sometimes I stack off, sometimes I fold. As im sure you will appreciate yourself this is situation dependent - you need a feel for the villian. Whatever you did I wouldnt rate it as an error either way.

Hand 3 - lol Gordon has 46o. If your calling the turn you need a definite plan for the river as he will fire again. Im not a big fan as I feel he checks the turn with anything we beat so i fold.

LuckyLloyd

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sikes

hand1 i ship

hand2 meh, prob shove.

hand3 - not sure of his postion, but i 3bet AQ there for sure pre flop. I dont know gordon but check the river.

LuckyLloyd

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semibluff

hand one, get em in. u should be racing at worst. 90 odd players left so you cant pass up on this situation

hand two he has either AK or a set. his comments (he doesnt have two kings) people normally do their best to tell the truth in these situations without giving away their hand (well they dont think they do). id probably fold

(3)well played to this point, the only thing i dont like is tanking the turn. its a bluff move with a hand we think is miles ahead, and although we think/know that gordon has been acting aggresive with a wide range, his calling range against you should be alot lower.
flat calling is ok with AQ OOP pre, i wouldnt be too mad to inflate the pot here

LuckyLloyd

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bops

hand 1: fold - shove and insta shove - at best your racing

hand 2: fold - he appears to be ahead (good reasoning!!)

hand 3: reraise OTF - don't give a player like that a cheap card imo - i'd rather take the pot as is


....maybe these replies are coloured by the fact that you run so bad!!

gl

Tar.Aldarion

Shove,
fold,
call.

sikes

LuckyLloyd wrote:

He is mp - before the button. So we will be OOP post - flop if he continues with the hand.

Also, can I take it that you are suggesting I call the 100 bet on the turn and check every river to him? If we do that, the pot will now be greater than our remaining stack. Are we just calling every river? Is there any rivers we check, fold? Should we shove an Ace or Queen for value?

Thanks.

Well check if unimproved. If we hit an A or Q its an easy vbet.

We could have and underpair to the Q, so its a good board for him to double barrell as the turn never helps your hand, so calling the turn is prob ok. Whether he tripple barrells enough to warrant a call im not sure, but the stacks are beautiful for a river shove bluff by him, and BCB reckons he will bet his whole range.

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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sikes

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Would you say that after I check the turn and deliberate before taking any further action that my hand looks exactly like what it is?

Also, and for me this is the real problem, because of the stack sizes am I not obliged to just check - call every river given that we will be getting 2:1+ and it is perfect for him to bluff at us with his entire range on basically every river?

Thats the problem taking this line OOP. On the river, when the action gets to him, your hand is essentially face up, but generally this wouldn't be a problem live, I would assume.

This is the advantage of 3betting preflop, you have, what I believe is referred to as, some sort of vigorish, preflop raising vigorish maybe, which is worth a whole lot more to you, as you bet so much of your range but rarely, if ever, get into call down mode. When you call OOP preflop, and enter this type of call down mode, you are either losing value on really strong hands or opening yourself up to being exploited, especially with hands that are rarely going to be anything but TP. 3betting obv has other advantages too.

You should only call if you think that he is bluffing >33% of the time or whatever it is.

StraddleFor6

1. Ship.

2. Depends how confident he seems. I would lean towards a fold. Although I have regularly witnessed people c/r pp's here to "see where they're at". Because they don't like folding and they don't like check-calling oop, knowing they'll have a turn bet to face also.

3. These hands come up all the time. TPTK v good aggro player opp. Completely down to the player playing the hand at that moment. You have to stare him down, look deep into his soul and find out if you're ahead or not.

Killme00

Hand 1: I shove
Hand 2: I would say you are WB to a set or two pair..fold
Hand 3: I reraise this flop against this villian 100% of the time

LuckyLloyd

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ditpoker

hand 1: stick it in, take it to the bad beat sticky!

hand 2: i think if you are playing well in your own head you make a good lay down here more often than not. but i'm guessing you made a reluctant call HOPING to be ahead. if you did call and were ahead i wouldnt necessarily think it was a good long term call. i think your behind enough not to make a call in this situation profitable.

hand 3: i know its fun to call gordon a big giant salmon of a man... gordan you;re the fishiest, see i just did it there!! but he knows what he is doing, big difference between being a fish and being unpredictable. gordan knows you're a dirty nut peddler in cash games, he isn't betting every street so far with a hand that you beat. find the muck if you can.

LuckyLloyd

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bottom feeder

Hand 1 Lloyd the guy on the button seems pretty confident and doesn’t seem phased by Paddy’s all in, as you pointed out he’s a tight enough player which could mean a bigger pair.
However I’d be happy to get it in here as this is a good chance to increase your stack to well above the average and puts you in a comfortable position to make the final table / also with the structure you might not get a better spot to ship them in.


Hand 2 is probably a fold for me, the guy has been inactive for the last while so I don’t think he’s going to try make a play with you in the hand given your tight image. I’d say he has 2pair min.


Hand 3 im of the same opinion as bops here, I’d CR the pot and if called I’d lead out on the turn.

Killme00

LuckyLloyd wrote:

What worse hands do you think I get paid off with if I take that line?

His raise preflop and bet on the flop mean nothing. Unless you raise you are effective playing a big pot oop in the dark.

On the flop you will get paid off by lots of hands. Its the only time you will get value from him (especially you! no offense). On the turn and river you will not get called by any hands that you beat (especially you! no offense)

LuckyLloyd

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ditpoker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

Why are we re - raising the flop? If you look upthread to my response to Bops you will see that I presented some logic as to why I felt raising the flop is bad. Can you counter that argument? What worse hands do you think I get paid off with if I take that line?

if he has say KJ or something and is continuation betting why do we let him see the turn. if he his middle paid with some rag cards, why let him see the turn. i think the "we only get called by a hand that beats us" argument should only be used for stacks or at the river. if we are in check calling mood, its gonna cost you alot more to find out you are behind..

for example, say he has 75sooooted gordon will bet that flop having raised. so he makes it 40, you now can fold call or raise. fold is not an option. flat calling in all likelyhood is gonna cost you another chunk of chips,in this case 100. so its costing you 140 by the turn to make a tough decision in a hand where you have let the villain overtake you with a worse hand or outplay you with a worse hand. if you reraise that flop to 120 we achieve a few things. 1. you win a moderate pot with 1 pair, no shame in that, take it down, move on, we dont wanna be trying to trap with 1 pair. if he flat calls, we can narrow his range significantly and it gives you more information about his turn play. if he ships it, then the "we are only getting called by a hand that beats us" argument comes into play a bit more - he has us beat, it costs us 120 to find this out this way. instead, the way you played it looks like it has cost you 140 to be unsure about where you stand. ya follow!?

El Stuntman

LuckyLloyd wrote:

lol. None taken. I am the Nittiest of all the Nits in Nitsville.

with all due respect sir, I am the Lord Mayor of that particular location

cooker3

ditpoker wrote:

if he has say KJ or something and is continuation betting why do we let him see the turn. if he his middle paid with some rag cards, why let him see the turn. i think the "we only get called by a hand that beats us" argument should only be used for stacks or at the river. if we are in check calling mood, its gonna cost you alot more to find out you are behind..

for example, say he has 75sooooted gordon will bet that flop having raised. so he makes it 40, you now can fold call or raise. fold is not an option. flat calling in all likelyhood is gonna cost you another chunk of chips,in this case 100. so its costing you 140 by the turn to make a tough decision in a hand where you have let the villain overtake you with a worse hand or outplay you with a worse hand. if you reraise that flop to 120 we achieve a few things. 1. you win a moderate pot with 1 pair, no shame in that, take it down, move on, we dont wanna be trying to trap with 1 pair. if he flat calls, we can narrow his range significantly and it gives you more information about his turn play. if he ships it, then the "we are only getting called by a hand that beats us" argument comes into play a bit more - he has us beat, it costs us 120 to find this out this way. instead, the way you played it looks like it has cost you 140 to be unsure about where you stand. ya follow!?

no no no Jeff.
There are so many things wrong with this.

First saying that the "we only get called by a hand that beats us" argument should only be used for stacks or at the river is just so wrong I am not sure where to begin. Turning good hands into bluffs is generally a bad strategy and that is what raising in these type of situations do. You are raising for information which is going to cost you a lot in the long term.
Lets say Gordon is bluffing, which is not too difficult to assume. What happens when Lloyd raises is he folds, thats that, by calling Lloyd gives himself a chance to get more of Gordons money by allowing him to bluff some more, if he raises he can never do that (unless Gordon decides a sick 3 bet but thats differant story and even for Gordon very unlikely to happen)

Now, next point you make is about allowing him to hit on the turn, if he has only 3-6 outs then you really shouldn't worry about it, it happens but not often and it is not an issue. This is a real tournament mentality that people have of ending the hand as early as possible just so they don't get a bad beat and it's really bad, you should only be interested in best EV decision, that is all that matters!

Yeah calling makes the hand play tougher but sometimes you have to accept these things, if your better player then it will work out in the long term which is all that matters

ditpoker

sorry rob, im not with ya on this one. that flop has to be raised. you say "Lets say Gordon is bluffing, which is not too difficult to assume. What happens when Lloyd raises is he folds, thats that, by calling Lloyd gives himself a chance to get more of Gordons money by allowing him to bluff some more," ... good, let him fold...lets take the pot down. we only have 1 pair, not a lock on the hand by any means. if we dont bet to win pots, end pots, why not take raising out of our game until the river all together? if we are ahead, but gordan has some draw or some sort of hand, lets get his chips off him now. if he's bluffing with nothing (unlikely i think) he's more often then not gonna stop donating to the pot with air. if he is betting with something, then he is likely to continue on the turn with something that can improve.

check calling here is so weak and will be a losing play overall. i dont think this is a pot control move here. if we're ahead by a long way, fair enough, try to extract value, if we are slightly ahead (which with one pair i'd say is more likely) lets end the hand. take 40 off gordon, lets move on, why are we trying to stack a player with top pair top kicker? gordon isnt a complete idiot, he may be ginger-ish, but not a complete idiot!

LuckyLloyd

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BigCityBanker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

As such, if we have a pair and are ahead, we are up against 2 - 5 outs. And that means we are waaaaayyyy ahead. Please consider the percentage chance of getting outdrawn in such a situation. And then ask yourself why you are so eager to protect against that possibillity?

Lloyd on this basis the hand plays itself. Check call flop and turn and jam river - there is no need to put the hand up here as you are best placed to decide if you are ahead or behind - play the hand accordingly then based on this.

cooker3

ditpoker wrote:

sorry rob, im not with ya on this one. that flop has to be raised. you say "Lets say Gordon is bluffing, which is not too difficult to assume. What happens when Lloyd raises is he folds, thats that, by calling Lloyd gives himself a chance to get more of Gordons money by allowing him to bluff some more," ... good, let him fold...lets take the pot down. we only have 1 pair, not a lock on the hand by any means. if we dont bet to win pots, end pots, why not take raising out of our game until the river all together? if we are ahead, but gordan has some draw or some sort of hand, lets get his chips off him now. if he's bluffing with nothing (unlikely i think) he's more often then not gonna stop donating to the pot with air. if he is betting with something, then he is likely to continue on the turn with something that can improve.

check calling here is so weak and will be a losing play overall. i dont think this is a pot control move here. if we're ahead by a long way, fair enough, try to extract value, if we are slightly ahead (which with one pair i'd say is more likely) lets end the hand. take 40 off gordon, lets move on, why are we trying to stack a player with top pair top kicker? gordon isnt a complete idiot, he may be ginger-ish, but not a complete idiot!

If I think I am only being called by a better hand when I raise then yeah I will be taking raising out of my game. Of course if I suspect someone has a big draw then that may change that but this board is as dry as it gets so that is not a worry on this occasion .

You claim that if he is bluffing he is going to give up and if he has a hand he will bet it, this is great. By calling you know exactly where you are and it has cost a whole lot less then raising would for the same information going by your read.

Your post again was all about ending the hand because you only have tp, not once do you seem to condering the EV side of it and what is best move maths wise which is flawed thinking imo.

LuckyLloyd

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Wombatman

1. Love the hand context. Any idea what he was drinking?

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Paddy O’ Neill went off for a drink at the break

Shove.

2. Shove

3.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

My flopcheckcall makes the turn much harder to play - but we have created the possibillity on the turn that he is trying to bluff or is incorrectly value betting a worse hand that he believes is good.

If you are playing the hand as a bluff catcher why the confusion on what to do next? You say you tank at this point. Is this just for show?

3 bet pre.
Reraise flop as played.

LuckyLloyd

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BigCityBanker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Nah, Noel - I disagree. There are a number of different lines that could be taken. And the argument to raising the flop is there (even if I don't agree with it myself).

agree - im actually very indifferent about this hand. I dont really think Gordon fires the turn against a known villian unless he has them cooked. To counter this then the length of time you spent in the tank invites Gordon to fire the turn again. Its pretty thin to call him down from here cos you may well be drawing dead. I accept that we lose value by raising any street - but to take this line regularly against a tricky villian with a wide preflop range youd want your balls to be dragging off the floor, a wallet the size of an overnight bag, and the intestinal fortitude of a horse. On this basis I prefer to become the aggressor at some point in the hand.

Its somewhat irrelevant to this spot but against a villian like Gordon I 3bet pre alot of the time in this spot as I want to take control of the hand. But thats cos im generally more comfortable being the agressor in a hand.

cardshark202

God this whole thing about raising for information which is essentially what some of you want to do in hand 3 has beed done to death. You can cr this flop vs a super aggro player if you plan to call a shove or a big fish who will stack off with worse a lot, but generally it sucks balls.

cardshark202

raising>>>folding>>>calling preflop in hand 3 unless you think you have a huge edge postflop which seems unlikely

Wombatman

LuckyLloyd wrote:

We have created the possibillity. That is still two pot sized shells and the stack sizes are awkward for the river if I call. So you might say I am reserving my right to reassess the turn?

Turn is a blank (unless he raised pre with 64s and pot bet the nuts on the turn????)
Unless he is giving off crazy tells what exactly are you reassessing here? Why not stick to your plan for the hand?

LuckyLloyd

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BigCityBanker

Wombatman wrote:

unless he raised pre with 64s and pot bet the nuts on the turn?

I kid you not - villian will not fold 64 preflop. check out his blog ghanlon.blogspot.com which details some recent mega pots with 64. and yes - he would fire turn with it - his hand is perfectly disguised.

Captain Tom

yeah shove hand 1, although i dont think it's as clear clear cut a decision as others seem to. i dont like it very much after a tight player snapshoves ~57bbs. i havent played live much in the last 6 months or so but im pretty sure a solidish tight live player will give at least some consideration before shoving JJ/AK while stacks are relatively deep (especially compared to other live tournies). the fact that there is another 8.5k or so in the pot between the limpers and paddy makes it easier, especially since were in great shape vs paddy's range.

im going back and forth in hand 2. i kinda want to fold w/o a better read. but then i remember all the retarded stuff live players do and feel happy stacking off. i prob just call and call any turn. he'll show up with worse aces sometimes and it lets him do something stupid with KK/QQ. you're only about 100bb deep effective which makes it easier too.

hand 3 i think i just call and shove any non ace or king river. i dont fold this for a couple reasons.

1. given the fact that you beleive he is somewhat bluff happy.

2. he can bet betting worse hands for protection/value. most live players will bet this turn with KQ/QJ/QT and possibly even JJ. check/calling live is usually taken as a sign of weakness (and it often is) and live players will fire again with these hands most of the time.

i prefer shoving blank rivers rather than check/calling because i think theres more value in letting him call down with worse than bluffing. it gives him the chance to make a hero call with 99-JJ and doesnt let him check down worse queens.

i like checking if the river's an ace because if he's bluffing this is such an obvious spot to fire again, and if he has KQ/QJ/QT he's almost certainly gonna fold or AK/AJ/AT he's probably gonna value shove anyway

a lot of the time i probably come across as a station regarding live hands, but honestly if you're never folding TPGK or overpairs w/o decent reads and with less than like 120bbs you're not doing much wrong (as bad as that sounds).

also trippy sorry if this comes across as condescending towards your ability. ive never played against you so im just giving my general perception of live players.

LuckyLloyd

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Moneymaker

Hand 1: Ship it

Hand 2: Tough spot but i'd probably fold.

Hand 3: I'm definetly raising the flop here. I haven't played with Gordon a lot, but i'm fully aware his raising range is very wide and he's got a lot of moves. and I think you need to raise and see how strong(or weak his hand) is. Repeating what's been said already but I think you have to raise on the flop. Do you really want to play a big pot and have to make some very tough decisions with a vunerable one pair? You've stated you're playing tight and he's fired a pot bet on the turn. That said, Gordon isn't one who checks. AQ could be good here, but i'd fold and wait for a better spot.

Captain Tom

oops thought he had 300 for some reason. stack sizes are really awkward here. i still prefer betting the river. maybe b/f like 130. you'll be getting sick odds but he's never bluffing or v/shoving worse so i think it's ok.

Trippie

Wow I'm popular today.

First off I was the button and I think you limped utg llyod so that sorts out the positions

Now there has been a lot of talk of me firing away with air but as llyod mentioned in the beginning I have been rocking it up this session and any time I have shown down anything I have had the goods so perhaps it is image I portray but generally nobody took me for a hand all night which worked in my favor.

However if i was bluffing I think llyod knows he is going to have to make a decision for his entire stack on a further street as if he calls I will most likely fire again and if a scare card doesnt come on the river I will be firing again against llyod because I know he is capable of folding big hands. What I also presume was going through you're head was that you know if you do come over the top I am capable of re-shoving it and if that was to happen my range has to be narrowed to Aces,Kings,AQ,77,33 and maybe KQ or a compete bluff and I just dont think you would be beating enough hands enough of the time to find a call there if i do ship it.

Now onto the turn as you said earlier llyod you check called for this very reason and figured you were good so how can a 5 scare you? If you were behind on the flop you still are and if you were ahead then most likely you still are but then again you know calling the 100 means that most likely you are going to be making a decision for you're entire stack on the river with just one pair if you dont hit and thats not a spot most people like to be in

Killme00

Gordon,

How about the hand from your point of view? It would be good to read what you put Lyoyd on and your plan for the hand!!

Tom

Trippie

OK then

im in for a small amount and doing well, i think my stack is circa 800 at this stage. the table has been playing solid enough with a lot of respect being given to people except for joe who went nuts with a 6 on a KK66 board after paul(se regular tighter than llyod) sticks it all-in for 400/500.

llyod limps utg, two more callers and im on the button, i have been playing considerably tighter than i normally would and I am not in spew mode yet.

I make it 10 and get 4 callers inlucding llyod. to be honest he was the only one i was afraid of as the other will limp into any pot with atc and i know i dont have to be afraid of a limp reraise.

The flop comes Q 7 3 rainbow and this is a nice flop for me as i doubt anyone has a lot of it. Llyod does his usuall dwell up for a few seconds but checks and its checked around to me. I bet out 40 thinking i may take it down right here and now and he goes into the tank. at first he looked as if he was thinking of coming over the top of me or not but as time went and the longer he took i realised he just had a Q and not a set of any sort. At first I was thinking it was KQ as I didnt think AQ would take so long to call and QJ/Q10 may find a fold and he was trying to figure out where I am in the hand

He eventually calls and this scares the crap out of everyone in between us and they all fold. The turn is a brick a 5 and again he thinks for a brief moment and then checks to me. Earlier on in the night we were talking and llyod was saying that he doent like playing the no-limit game with peter as he constantly check raises him on the flop when he has over-pairs and he is not comfortable getting it in for 200+ bb with just one pair. This went through my head at the time. Llyod has about 400 left and i figure if i fire out roughly 100 or more he will know that unless he hits his kicker or Q he will be facing another pot sized bet on the river and there is no way he could call then.

I make it 100 then and he goes into the tank for what seems like an eternity. I figure he is not calling but he is going through all the possibilities of combiations of what I have and whether or not I am at as he knows i could well be. there was talk that i was squirming in my seat but it was taking so long to make the decision that two things were going through my head.

1) whats the story with calling clock in this place?is it frowned upon and considering i know llyod i decided to not bother and then

2) If he comes over the top for 400 quid can I call. I then began to run all the hand combinations and i figure I had to be ahead if he did and that I would call.

He eventually folded and seemed annoyed with himself in how the hand played out. I asked him had he KQ and he said no he AQ. which was there or there abouts.

The main point of debate in this hand seems whether or not to come over the top of me on the flop. This seems like the age old debate of taking a risk and building a pot or being happy to take it down right now and minimizing the risk. Depending on the table, you're mood and you're confidence both of these approaches can feel like the correct plays to make on seperate occasions and it comes down to what you're expectations are at that point.

Originally llyod's expectation was to check call and let me hang myself however maybe its a testament to his ability but he was able to re-evaluate the turn and realised that the other option of trying to take the pot down there and then would probably of been the better option considering he was oop and misjudging my willingness to put bet bigs in on every street.

phantom_lord

3, raising the flop is really bad.

3bet pf btw.

jbravado

3 bet pre has been quoted by a few posters who advice I think is usually spot on imo but I really dont like it in this spot.

LL I dont understand what happened in this hand-u call on the flop feeling you have the best of it-I presume at this stage your hoping Gordon will plough more money in there on the turn.
When the 5 falls do you think it has made his hand?
Sometimes one pair can be a made hand against the right player in the right situation-irrespective of the amount of bbs your playing.

ditpoker

results?!?!? what did u have gordon?

Trippie

I had llyod beat, i told him what i had after he got up from the table and it seemed to put his mind to rest

ditpoker

Trippie wrote:

I had llyod beat, i told him what i had after he got up from the table and it seemed to put his mind to rest

lol... dedication to a bluff!!

ianmc38

Hand 3 - 3bet preflop.

Jaden

Hand 1. Ship it. You re probably vs TT/JJ and AK. Insta-calls are nearly always AK here. QQ is 45% to take this hand if the other hand estimates are accurate.

Hand 2 & 3 - Dunno. Cash is for Donkeys.