"Don't go broke with a Queen in your hand". Three spots with QQ and AQ (Low Content)

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

BigCityBanker

Hand 1 - In that situation in that tournament im pretty sure this is an easy jamm. In a different event i might consider it further.

Hand 2 - is there a mistake in the way you have described the hand? Is the villian UTG or where? This is so read dependent. This can be a set/FD/two pair/ worse A/better A. Sometimes I stack off, sometimes I fold. As im sure you will appreciate yourself this is situation dependent - you need a feel for the villian. Whatever you did I wouldnt rate it as an error either way.

Hand 3 - lol Gordon has 46o. If your calling the turn you need a definite plan for the river as he will fire again. Im not a big fan as I feel he checks the turn with anything we beat so i fold.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

hand1 i ship

hand2 meh, prob shove.

hand3 - not sure of his postion, but i 3bet AQ there for sure pre flop. I dont know gordon but check the river.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

semibluff

hand one, get em in. u should be racing at worst. 90 odd players left so you cant pass up on this situation

hand two he has either AK or a set. his comments (he doesnt have two kings) people normally do their best to tell the truth in these situations without giving away their hand (well they dont think they do). id probably fold

(3)well played to this point, the only thing i dont like is tanking the turn. its a bluff move with a hand we think is miles ahead, and although we think/know that gordon has been acting aggresive with a wide range, his calling range against you should be alot lower.
flat calling is ok with AQ OOP pre, i wouldnt be too mad to inflate the pot here

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bops

hand 1: fold - shove and insta shove - at best your racing

hand 2: fold - he appears to be ahead (good reasoning!!)

hand 3: reraise OTF - don't give a player like that a cheap card imo - i'd rather take the pot as is


....maybe these replies are coloured by the fact that you run so bad!!

gl

Tar.Aldarion

Shove,
fold,
call.

sikes

LuckyLloyd wrote:

He is mp - before the button. So we will be OOP post - flop if he continues with the hand.

Also, can I take it that you are suggesting I call the 100 bet on the turn and check every river to him? If we do that, the pot will now be greater than our remaining stack. Are we just calling every river? Is there any rivers we check, fold? Should we shove an Ace or Queen for value?

Thanks.

Well check if unimproved. If we hit an A or Q its an easy vbet.

We could have and underpair to the Q, so its a good board for him to double barrell as the turn never helps your hand, so calling the turn is prob ok. Whether he tripple barrells enough to warrant a call im not sure, but the stacks are beautiful for a river shove bluff by him, and BCB reckons he will bet his whole range.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Would you say that after I check the turn and deliberate before taking any further action that my hand looks exactly like what it is?

Also, and for me this is the real problem, because of the stack sizes am I not obliged to just check - call every river given that we will be getting 2:1+ and it is perfect for him to bluff at us with his entire range on basically every river?

Thats the problem taking this line OOP. On the river, when the action gets to him, your hand is essentially face up, but generally this wouldn't be a problem live, I would assume.

This is the advantage of 3betting preflop, you have, what I believe is referred to as, some sort of vigorish, preflop raising vigorish maybe, which is worth a whole lot more to you, as you bet so much of your range but rarely, if ever, get into call down mode. When you call OOP preflop, and enter this type of call down mode, you are either losing value on really strong hands or opening yourself up to being exploited, especially with hands that are rarely going to be anything but TP. 3betting obv has other advantages too.

You should only call if you think that he is bluffing >33% of the time or whatever it is.

StraddleFor6

1. Ship.

2. Depends how confident he seems. I would lean towards a fold. Although I have regularly witnessed people c/r pp's here to "see where they're at". Because they don't like folding and they don't like check-calling oop, knowing they'll have a turn bet to face also.

3. These hands come up all the time. TPTK v good aggro player opp. Completely down to the player playing the hand at that moment. You have to stare him down, look deep into his soul and find out if you're ahead or not.

Killme00

Hand 1: I shove
Hand 2: I would say you are WB to a set or two pair..fold
Hand 3: I reraise this flop against this villian 100% of the time

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ditpoker

hand 1: stick it in, take it to the bad beat sticky!

hand 2: i think if you are playing well in your own head you make a good lay down here more often than not. but i'm guessing you made a reluctant call HOPING to be ahead. if you did call and were ahead i wouldnt necessarily think it was a good long term call. i think your behind enough not to make a call in this situation profitable.

hand 3: i know its fun to call gordon a big giant salmon of a man... gordan you;re the fishiest, see i just did it there!! but he knows what he is doing, big difference between being a fish and being unpredictable. gordan knows you're a dirty nut peddler in cash games, he isn't betting every street so far with a hand that you beat. find the muck if you can.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bottom feeder

Hand 1 Lloyd the guy on the button seems pretty confident and doesn’t seem phased by Paddy’s all in, as you pointed out he’s a tight enough player which could mean a bigger pair.
However I’d be happy to get it in here as this is a good chance to increase your stack to well above the average and puts you in a comfortable position to make the final table / also with the structure you might not get a better spot to ship them in.


Hand 2 is probably a fold for me, the guy has been inactive for the last while so I don’t think he’s going to try make a play with you in the hand given your tight image. I’d say he has 2pair min.


Hand 3 im of the same opinion as bops here, I’d CR the pot and if called I’d lead out on the turn.

Killme00

LuckyLloyd wrote:

What worse hands do you think I get paid off with if I take that line?

His raise preflop and bet on the flop mean nothing. Unless you raise you are effective playing a big pot oop in the dark.

On the flop you will get paid off by lots of hands. Its the only time you will get value from him (especially you! no offense). On the turn and river you will not get called by any hands that you beat (especially you! no offense)

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ditpoker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

Why are we re - raising the flop? If you look upthread to my response to Bops you will see that I presented some logic as to why I felt raising the flop is bad. Can you counter that argument? What worse hands do you think I get paid off with if I take that line?

if he has say KJ or something and is continuation betting why do we let him see the turn. if he his middle paid with some rag cards, why let him see the turn. i think the "we only get called by a hand that beats us" argument should only be used for stacks or at the river. if we are in check calling mood, its gonna cost you alot more to find out you are behind..

for example, say he has 75sooooted gordon will bet that flop having raised. so he makes it 40, you now can fold call or raise. fold is not an option. flat calling in all likelyhood is gonna cost you another chunk of chips,in this case 100. so its costing you 140 by the turn to make a tough decision in a hand where you have let the villain overtake you with a worse hand or outplay you with a worse hand. if you reraise that flop to 120 we achieve a few things. 1. you win a moderate pot with 1 pair, no shame in that, take it down, move on, we dont wanna be trying to trap with 1 pair. if he flat calls, we can narrow his range significantly and it gives you more information about his turn play. if he ships it, then the "we are only getting called by a hand that beats us" argument comes into play a bit more - he has us beat, it costs us 120 to find this out this way. instead, the way you played it looks like it has cost you 140 to be unsure about where you stand. ya follow!?

El Stuntman

LuckyLloyd wrote:

lol. None taken. I am the Nittiest of all the Nits in Nitsville.

with all due respect sir, I am the Lord Mayor of that particular location

cooker3

ditpoker wrote:

if he has say KJ or something and is continuation betting why do we let him see the turn. if he his middle paid with some rag cards, why let him see the turn. i think the "we only get called by a hand that beats us" argument should only be used for stacks or at the river. if we are in check calling mood, its gonna cost you alot more to find out you are behind..

for example, say he has 75sooooted gordon will bet that flop having raised. so he makes it 40, you now can fold call or raise. fold is not an option. flat calling in all likelyhood is gonna cost you another chunk of chips,in this case 100. so its costing you 140 by the turn to make a tough decision in a hand where you have let the villain overtake you with a worse hand or outplay you with a worse hand. if you reraise that flop to 120 we achieve a few things. 1. you win a moderate pot with 1 pair, no shame in that, take it down, move on, we dont wanna be trying to trap with 1 pair. if he flat calls, we can narrow his range significantly and it gives you more information about his turn play. if he ships it, then the "we are only getting called by a hand that beats us" argument comes into play a bit more - he has us beat, it costs us 120 to find this out this way. instead, the way you played it looks like it has cost you 140 to be unsure about where you stand. ya follow!?

no no no Jeff.
There are so many things wrong with this.

First saying that the "we only get called by a hand that beats us" argument should only be used for stacks or at the river is just so wrong I am not sure where to begin. Turning good hands into bluffs is generally a bad strategy and that is what raising in these type of situations do. You are raising for information which is going to cost you a lot in the long term.
Lets say Gordon is bluffing, which is not too difficult to assume. What happens when Lloyd raises is he folds, thats that, by calling Lloyd gives himself a chance to get more of Gordons money by allowing him to bluff some more, if he raises he can never do that (unless Gordon decides a sick 3 bet but thats differant story and even for Gordon very unlikely to happen)

Now, next point you make is about allowing him to hit on the turn, if he has only 3-6 outs then you really shouldn't worry about it, it happens but not often and it is not an issue. This is a real tournament mentality that people have of ending the hand as early as possible just so they don't get a bad beat and it's really bad, you should only be interested in best EV decision, that is all that matters!

Yeah calling makes the hand play tougher but sometimes you have to accept these things, if your better player then it will work out in the long term which is all that matters

ditpoker

sorry rob, im not with ya on this one. that flop has to be raised. you say "Lets say Gordon is bluffing, which is not too difficult to assume. What happens when Lloyd raises is he folds, thats that, by calling Lloyd gives himself a chance to get more of Gordons money by allowing him to bluff some more," ... good, let him fold...lets take the pot down. we only have 1 pair, not a lock on the hand by any means. if we dont bet to win pots, end pots, why not take raising out of our game until the river all together? if we are ahead, but gordan has some draw or some sort of hand, lets get his chips off him now. if he's bluffing with nothing (unlikely i think) he's more often then not gonna stop donating to the pot with air. if he is betting with something, then he is likely to continue on the turn with something that can improve.

check calling here is so weak and will be a losing play overall. i dont think this is a pot control move here. if we're ahead by a long way, fair enough, try to extract value, if we are slightly ahead (which with one pair i'd say is more likely) lets end the hand. take 40 off gordon, lets move on, why are we trying to stack a player with top pair top kicker? gordon isnt a complete idiot, he may be ginger-ish, but not a complete idiot!

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

BigCityBanker

LuckyLloyd wrote:

As such, if we have a pair and are ahead, we are up against 2 - 5 outs. And that means we are waaaaayyyy ahead. Please consider the percentage chance of getting outdrawn in such a situation. And then ask yourself why you are so eager to protect against that possibillity?

Lloyd on this basis the hand plays itself. Check call flop and turn and jam river - there is no need to put the hand up here as you are best placed to decide if you are ahead or behind - play the hand accordingly then based on this.

cooker3

ditpoker wrote:

sorry rob, im not with ya on this one. that flop has to be raised. you say "Lets say Gordon is bluffing, which is not too difficult to assume. What happens when Lloyd raises is he folds, thats that, by calling Lloyd gives himself a chance to get more of Gordons money by allowing him to bluff some more," ... good, let him fold...lets take the pot down. we only have 1 pair, not a lock on the hand by any means. if we dont bet to win pots, end pots, why not take raising out of our game until the river all together? if we are ahead, but gordan has some draw or some sort of hand, lets get his chips off him now. if he's bluffing with nothing (unlikely i think) he's more often then not gonna stop donating to the pot with air. if he is betting with something, then he is likely to continue on the turn with something that can improve.

check calling here is so weak and will be a losing play overall. i dont think this is a pot control move here. if we're ahead by a long way, fair enough, try to extract value, if we are slightly ahead (which with one pair i'd say is more likely) lets end the hand. take 40 off gordon, lets move on, why are we trying to stack a player with top pair top kicker? gordon isnt a complete idiot, he may be ginger-ish, but not a complete idiot!

If I think I am only being called by a better hand when I raise then yeah I will be taking raising out of my game. Of course if I suspect someone has a big draw then that may change that but this board is as dry as it gets so that is not a worry on this occasion .

You claim that if he is bluffing he is going to give up and if he has a hand he will bet it, this is great. By calling you know exactly where you are and it has cost a whole lot less then raising would for the same information going by your read.

Your post again was all about ending the hand because you only have tp, not once do you seem to condering the EV side of it and what is best move maths wise which is flawed thinking imo.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Wombatman

1. Love the hand context. Any idea what he was drinking?

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Paddy O’ Neill went off for a drink at the break

Shove.

2. Shove

3.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

My flopcheckcall makes the turn much harder to play - but we have created the possibillity on the turn that he is trying to bluff or is incorrectly value betting a worse hand that he believes is good.

If you are playing the hand as a bluff catcher why the confusion on what to do next? You say you tank at this point. Is this just for show?

3 bet pre.
Reraise flop as played.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.