DCU vs UCD

stainluss

LimeFruitGum wrote: »

International reputation? They're both as well-known as each other abroad in my experience. Or else foreigners confuse both of them with Trinity:rolleyes:

ucd is 'triple accredited', does this make any diff to employers?

Hungerford

gob wrote: »

I did my undergraduate in UCD and am currently doing a masters in DCU. I don't know how the 2 courses your considering stack up but I think UCD is streets ahead of DCU in most areas.

Ah, a refugee from the southside soide. What did you do your degrees in? Teaching standards do vary within colleges you know. :rolleyes:

manlad

Go to ucd!!!I'm in DCU now and its my biggest regret. Its a soul killing institute. Especially the business school, very poor lecturers compared to UCD. Besides the commerce degree is more greatly recognised worldwide. The module are also nicely split and so are the exams.

gizmo

Alright, any more of these "it's better recognised" or "it's just better" comments which are not accompanied by actual reasoning will be deleted.

Take the blind worship of your respective colleges to the Trinity forum tbh. :P

Lads, ye're all puttin gizmo under a lot of work these days...c'mon it's christmas...

Although, I do feel like making a derogatory comment about Ferdinand Von Prodestenty

manlad

In general it is better. Theres not an easier way of putting it. Its hard to describe but in general the atmosphere

Time Magazine

gizmo wrote: »

Alright, any more of these "it's better recognised" or "it's just better" comments which are not accompanied by actual reasoning will be deleted.

It's well known that by standard international rankings Trinity is the best university in Ireland, followed by UCD.

There are of course problems with these rankings, but that does not dismiss the fact that it is still a source of recognition, thereby passing the "it's better recognised" criterion.

Also, despite these problems, the rankings are fairly bang on. Harvard is almost always Top 5. Trinity is never in the Top 30. UCD hovers around 100th.

MonaghanPenguin

Time Magazine wrote: »

It's well known that by standard international rankings Trinity is the best university in Ireland, followed by UCD.

There are of course problems with these rankings, but that does not dismiss the fact that it is still a source of recognition, thereby passing the "it's better recognised" criterion.

Also, despite these problems, the rankings are fairly bang on. Harvard is almost always Top 5. Trinity is never in the Top 30. UCD hovers around 100th.

those tables are skewed more in the direction of research than undergrad teaching and within universities, schools tend to have reputations that vary from their parent institution. Saying an individual course is more internationally recognised than another based on league tables for institutions is meaningless

gizmo

MonaghanPenguin wrote: »

those tables are skewed more in the direction of research than undergrad teaching and within universities, schools tend to have reputations that vary from their parent institution. Saying an individual course is more internationally recognised than another based on league tables for institutions is meaningless

Eggs-actly!

Regarding the generalised "it's better" then you have further problems. For instance, regarding atmosphere both myself (a DCU grad) and my mates (UCD grads) both agreed that the UCD campus was far too big for any kind of decent atmosphere. Fair enough the bar was good craic but the DCU bar, when equally full is equally good fun. On top of that you have the C&S activities which have constantly proved themselves some of the best in Ireland. DCU also has some great facilities, perhaps not as fantastic as UCD but then again it's also less than half it's size.

At the end of the day it boils down to this fact, go to the University who has the best course in the field you want. This is what employers will value, not the initials on the t-shirt/hoodie you wear.

Time Magazine

MonaghanPenguin wrote: »

Saying an individual course is more internationally recognised than another based on league tables for institutions is meaningless

I agree, but nobody said that. Institutions are better recognised, and this matters (too much, for my liking.) For example, I can tell you of a friend who got first-class honours in each of her undergraduate years, then a first in her master's, and gets asked "DCwho?" by Oxford and Cambridge. They treat her with suspicion because she didn't pick the "best" university. Very few people think it should matter, but tbh the only people who deny that that this exists and that it's important are people with chips on their shoulder.

gizmo wrote: »

Regarding the generalised "it's better" then you have further problems. For instance, regarding atmosphere both myself (a DCU grad) and my mates (UCD grads) both agreed that the UCD campus was far too big for any kind of decent atmosphere. Fair enough the bar was good craic but the DCU bar, when equally full is equally good fun. On top of that you have the C&S activities which have constantly proved themselves some of the best in Ireland. DCU also has some great facilities, perhaps not as fantastic as UCD but then again it's also less than half it's size.

I agree, people will have more fun at a place that's more fun. But if you allow fun to be important, then the best university is an amusement park. Everything should be considered. I don't like the atmosphere/architecture in UCD at all. Similarly I think the areas around DCU are kips. You need to focus on individual elements of the choice: the quality of the university, the quality of the course, costs/fees, transport, social life, etc. I'm saying that, in my experience, the former-most there is pretty important. I got a first from Trinity and my friend got a first from DCU - if we're applying for the same graduate job then (unfairly imho, but it's still true in my experience) then I have the upper-hand. You can put your head in the sand and pretend this doesn't exist, or you can bite your lip and consider it along with transport/social life/everything else.

At the end of the day it boils down to this fact, go to the University who has the best course in the field you want. This is what employers will value, not the initials on the t-shirt/hoodie you wear.

I disagree. For one thing, university is not just about employment. At the end of the day: pick the course in the university that will make you happiest over the course of your life. That might mean struggling through a hard course to get the long-term financial rewards; that might mean having an absolute ball for four years for no great monetary gain. (I know people who don't have very long life expectancies, for example, for whom this is a great decision.) Or it might mean picking the nearest college so you your girlfriend won't dump you. Basically, it's not just about the course.

cocoa

Time Magazine wrote: »

I got a first from Trinity and my friend got a first from DCU - if we're applying for the same graduate job then (unfairly imho, but it's still true in my experience) then I have the upper-hand.

Really? Employers would choose a name over actual work experience (as you're mentioning firsts, I'm assuming they managed to secure intra)? I know in my field anyway (electronic eng) I could quite easily match any of my Trinity friends in a job application, and this is based on speaking with employers when applying for INTRA. It would come down to other things, such as how we are in the interview etc. Even all that aside, in a large number of cases where intra is secured (as is usually the case with people who get firsts), there's a job waiting for them when they graduate, should they choose to take it.

gizmo

Time Magazine wrote: »

I disagree. For one thing, university is not just about employment. At the end of the day: pick the course in the university that will make you happiest over the course of your life. That might mean struggling through a hard course to get the long-term financial rewards; that might mean having an absolute ball for four years for no great monetary gain. (I know people who don't have very long life expectancies, for example, for whom this is a great decision.) Or it might mean picking the nearest college so you your girlfriend won't dump you. Basically, it's not just about the course.

And this attitude is why I'm glad they're looking at reintroducing fees in some shape or form. Since when did Universities become anything other than learning institutions? It's not meant to be a bloody holiday like, you're there to learn and to develop as a person. In my case I accomplished this through a combination of my course and C&S activities, others do the latter through sports, however, the education is what you're there for and any other aspect, facilities wise, is merely a bonus.

Oh and generally speaking, if you go to a University close to you for no other reason than you want to be near your other half then, in my opinion of course, you are a moron.

Time Magazine wrote: »

I got a first from Trinity and my friend got a first from DCU - if we're applying for the same graduate job then (unfairly imho, but it's still true in my experience) then I have the upper-hand. You can put your head in the sand and pretend this doesn't exist, or you can bite your lip and consider it along with transport/social life/everything else.

Well from both my own experience and from that of close family and friends I can tell you that is not true when put in such generalised terms. In terms of Computing and Engineering, the DCU courses have been recognised by employers as some of the best in the country, in specific cases the best. As for Business, I've had family members do courses here where their mates did Commerce in UCD and BESS in Trinity and said family member and his class mates were snapped up far quicker than their friends in other courses. Does this mean one is better than the other? Nope, but it does discount this idiotic notion that employers care what college you come from. To be more precise, any employer worth their salt will know what college has the best courses and will cherry pick from them. They'd want to be pretty moronic to simply look at the University and make a decision based on that.

That being said I am sure the kind of behaviour you've described does happen in some circles, academic or otherwise, however I'm quite happy to live my life having no part in that kind of bull****.

Time Magazine

cocoa wrote: »

Really? Employers would choose a name over actual work experience (as you're mentioning firsts, I'm assuming they managed to secure intra)? I know in my field anyway (electronic eng) I could quite easily match any of my Trinity friends in a job application, and this is based on speaking with employers when applying for INTRA. It would come down to other things, such as how we are in the interview etc. Even all that aside, in a large number of cases where intra is secured (as is usually the case with people who get firsts), there's a job waiting for them when they graduate, should they choose to take it.

I don't know what INTRA is.

There are (well, there used to be) jobs waiting for just about anyone who got firsts in any good course. But "firsts" aren't identical. My brother did CS in NUIM and I know that DCU has the better rep for that kind of thing. I don't know about engineering, but I could well imagine that DCU are hot on that too. So yes, absolutely, course reputations matter. But it's an imperfect knowledge world out there. Oxford/Cambridge don't know whether TCD or DCU are better at economics, but they've heard of TCD. It's only a pretty small part of the picture when you want to stay in Ireland, but in my experience it's pretty important (ridiculously so - CAO choices are a poor indicator of you as a person) when you want to go abroad. That's the extent of what I'm saying here. It's nothing ground-breaking or nothing controversial. I'm saying it's an issue and it's something people should consider, along with everything else, when making their choice. They should pick what's best for them. If they hope to get a job as a games programmer in Dublin, then CA in DCU is the best. If they want to work as a lawyer in New York, then TCD is probably best.

gizmo wrote: »

And this attitude is why I'm glad they're looking at reintroducing fees in some shape or form. Since when did Universities become anything other than learning institutions? It's not meant to be a bloody holiday like, you're there to learn and to develop as a person. In my case I accomplished this through a combination of my course and C&S activities, others do the latter through sports, however, the education is what you're there for and any other aspect, facilities wise, is merely a bonus.

Education is fun. A degree in Sociology and History can be outstanding for a person's intellectual curiosity, but probably won't get you much of a job. If somebody wants to study it for three years, good luck to them. (I agree, they should pay for it.) My point is that there are valid reasons to want to study Sociology, but your employment prospects afterwards are not likely to enter the equation much. So I disagree with your assertion to "go to the University who has the best course in the field you want [because this] is what employers will value." My point = it's not all about employment.

Oh and generally speaking, if you go to a University close to you for no other reason than you want to be near your other half then, in my opinion of course, you are a moron.

You're welcome to your opinion. If it makes them happier then I say fair play to them. I'm a pretty right-wing goals-orientated kind of guy, but I can appreciate that I wouldn't want a slightly higher-paying job if I had to dump my pretty new girlfriend for it.

Well from both my own experience and from that of close family and friends I can tell you that is not true when put in such generalised terms.

Your friends and family are specific terms, not generalities.

In terms of Computing and Engineering, the DCU courses have been recognised by employers as some of the best in the country, in specific cases the best.

Agreed, where are you getting this notion that I don't agree with that?

[QUTOE]As for Business, I've had family members do courses here where their mates did Commerce in UCD and BESS in Trinity and said family member and his class mates were snapped up far quicker than their friends in other courses.[/QUOTE]Again, you're talking specifics. I can list BESS grads who got snapped up to Oxford and Cambridge faster than someone with better grades from DCU, i.e. me and my colleague. You cannot complain that I'm being specific and then reply with the exact same specificities!

Does this mean one is better than the other?

I didn't say better. I said better recognised.

Nope, but it does discount this idiotic notion that employers care what college you come from. <next paragraph> That being said I am sure the kind of behaviour you've described does happen in some circles, academic or otherwise

What's it gonna be? They do care or they don't?

To be more precise, any employer worth their salt will know what college has the best courses and will cherry pick from them. They'd want to be pretty moronic to simply look at the University and make a decision based on that.

They would want to be pretty moronic and I think they are pretty moronic. That's my point. It's unfair that my friend gets asked "DCU?" when she applied to Oxford, with better grades than me, and I get "Ah, yes, Trinity College." It is absolutely moronic and unfair but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it mean that you should imagine that it doesn't exist. And this isn't some crappy firm here. This is really a place worth its salt, one of the best universities in the world. I also know that some very well-known investment banking firms in London will simply throw out your application unless you did BESS or UCD Commerce.

however I'm quite happy to live my life having no part in that kind of bull****.

That's fine, and cool if that's what you want to do. If you're more interested in fairness and equality than getting into Oxford, good for you. If Paddy Murphy is more interested in getting into Oxford than fairness and equality, then good for Paddy. I'm not sure I'm getting my point across here, but this is entirely my point. If I were advising a LC'er as to whether they should do Economics, Politics and Law in DCU or to do Economics and Social Studies in Trinity, I'd have to know what they want in life. If they're certain they want to marry a girl from Glasnevin (and let's imagine they can know that!) then DCU all the way. If they live on the southside, then TCD will save them hours' commuting every week. Blah blah blah until you get to the last bit which is the reputation of the university and the role it plays in your future life. I am asserting right now that I know people who are smarter than me and who have better grades than me who are struggling to get in the door in places because their alma mater is not as well recognised. Yes, that's a load of sh*t and it's unfair. But, quite frankly, tough sh*t. Oxford/Harvard/Berkeley are not going to change their admissions processes for one girl. Had she known about this kind of thing when she was 17, she would have chosen Trinity - she's admitted that herself. That's why I'm stating this here publicly in the hope it will be of some use to some kid. People like you who claim that it doesn't exist would not have helped my friend and it will not help the equivalent girl who's filling in her CAO form today.

gob

Time Magazine wrote: »

I don't know what INTRA is.

They would want to be pretty moronic and I think they are pretty moronic. That's my point. It's unfair that my friend gets asked "DCU?" when she applied to Oxford, with better grades than me, and I get "Ah, yes, Trinity College." It is absolutely moronic and unfair but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, nor does it mean that you should imagine that it doesn't exist. And this isn't some crappy firm here. This is really a place worth its salt, one of the best universities in the world. I also know that some very well-known investment banking firms in London will simply throw out your application unless you did BESS or UCD Commerce.

I have had a similar experience, which I wrote about here a few weeks ago.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055767696

I got down to the final 7 out of 1200+ applications but at the end of the day they went with the Oxford/Cambridge guys. They'd never say it but I think doing my masters in DCU hurt me badly.

gizmo

Time Magazine wrote: »

I don't know what INTRA is.

INTRA is a paid work placement that most students in DCU do during their third year. It's been quoted by employers as a big reason they take people on straight from DCU as they usually have some experience working in their specific area. It's also usually why you see it mentioned when listing the pros of the college/courses.

We do seem to be agreeing on these points, however, I was concentrating on the employer side of things rather than further education in the likes of Oxford or Cambridge where, as I mentioned later in my post, I believed that kind of stuff may matter more. That doesn't mean I'm still not surprised it still does happen though, especially in an age where that kind of information is far easier to obtain.

Time Magazine wrote: »

Education is fun. A degree in Sociology and History can be outstanding for a person's intellectual curiosity, but probably won't get you much of a job. If somebody wants to study it for three years, good luck to them. (I agree, they should pay for it.) My point is that there are valid reasons to want to study Sociology, but your employment prospects afterwards are not likely to enter the equation much. So I disagree with your assertion to "go to the University who has the best course in the field you want [because this] is what employers will value." My point = it's not all about employment.

Again we're agreeing here however the association I've made between education and employment may have come across a bit too strong. That being said, if someone was in the first position you'd described I would assume they'd still want to go to the institution which had the best course, rather than the university with the best reputation.

Time Magazine wrote: »

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across here, but this is entirely my point. If I were advising a LC'er as to whether they should do Economics, Politics and Law in DCU or to do Economics and Social Studies in Trinity, I'd have to know what they want in life. If they're certain they want to marry a girl from Glasnevin (and let's imagine they can know that!) then DCU all the way. If they live on the southside, then TCD will save them hours' commuting every week. Blah blah blah until you get to the last bit which is the reputation of the university and the role it plays in your future life.

Perhaps I have a more black and white view of this but again I'd consider the quality of education you get at a particular institution to be the main concern. Of course there are financial considerations to make too but in the context of this debate I'm going to ignore them. Outside of that though, I'd regard any else as a secondary concerns. As for the other half comment, well I was referring more to 18 years olds rather than say, mature students who could be in more long term relationships with actual futures.

Time Magazine wrote: »

I am asserting right now that I know people who are smarter than me and who have better grades than me who are struggling to get in the door in places because their alma mater is not as well recognised. Yes, that's a load of sh*t and it's unfair. But, quite frankly, tough sh*t. Oxford/Harvard/Berkeley are not going to change their admissions processes for one girl. Had she known about this kind of thing when she was 17, she would have chosen Trinity - she's admitted that herself. That's why I'm stating this here publicly in the hope it will be of some use to some kid. People like you who claim that it doesn't exist would not have helped my friend and it will not help the equivalent girl who's filling in her CAO form today.

Really? I find that behaviour quick shocking from those kinds of institutions. That being said, if the colleges they're favouring have indeed better courses it may go some way to explain the situation?

tinkerbell

I vote for DCU. I did Financial and Actuarial Mathematics there (4 year undergrad) and it's a really good course. There's an actuarial course in UCD as well but there are differences - DCU is very maths based whereas the UCD course has more economics / commerce element.

DCU is a much smaller campus which is better, I think. UCD is just one giant sprawling mass.