A week in the life of a barrister!

NoQuarter

bet ya thought it was an article didnt ya!

im startin the LLB in griffith in sept and at the moment the plan is to go to the kings inn after that(subject to change!) so i was just wondering if anyone could describe a typical day/week on life at the bar as i'd find it very interesting and im sure others would too!
thanks, stuy.

Tom Young

http://timesonline.typepad.com/baby_barista/

dats_right

It's certainly not as glamarous as most people think, especially at the very junior Bar (i.e. 1-3 years post devilling). I'm a trainee solicitor so whilst not ideally placed to advise, I have numerous friends who are barristers and I am regularly in court to 'attend' at various motions and applications, etc. Those who are so called very Junior or Devils will most likely be moving pre-trail motions and applications in the County Registrar's Court or the Master's Court from about 10 am onwards (not exactly very glamorous, especially when the Registrar or Master tears into you for not having served some document correctly or some such and you haven't got an answer because you only found out you were moving the motion five minutes ago and were handed your papers three minutes ago by some apprentice solicitor or other).

After that if you are a devil, you will meet up with your master and attend whatever he/she happens to be doing (with a bit of luck you'd have a busy master with a good and varied practise). However, as a very junior barrister without the comfort of having a master, you are highly unlikely to get any work of your own, so you will most likely be doing nothing after about 11-11.30 (except maybe sitting around doing the crossword or sudoku). That is unless you have managed impress your ex-master or other practising barristers, who from time to time may feed you with some scraps, things like drafting or researching some or other piece of law that they couldn't be arsed doing themselves.

The biggest sacrifice is the financial one and is usually what breaks most, as many soon realise after studying for many years that they are still not making any money whatsoever and have no immediate prospect of even clearing the equivalent of minimum wage. It is exceptionally tough to make it as a barrister that there is no denying, but should you overcome all the hurdles it is a very rewarding, interesting and stimulating career. My advice would be to try and talk to any barristers you know, or even pop into the Four Courts and sit around striking up conversation in the canteen with said very junior barristers. Nonetheless, deciding upon a career at the Bar shouldn't be done lightly and without the utmost careful consideration.

Good luck whatever you decide.

PS> You should take a look at this article 'Why Lawyer's are so Miserable?', here's the link:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article2045254.ece

Also if you could get your hands on this book: An Eye on the Whiplash and other stories by Henry Murphy. It is a highly amusing, fictitous account of a guy trying to make it down at the Law Libray.

NoQuarter

dats_right wrote:

(not exactly very glamorous, especially when the Registrar or Master tears into you for not having served some document correctly

ah well im no stranger to this carry on, ive just finished serving four years in the army, now theres a place where theres some serious bull**** to put up with! but after four years of wasting time i decided to change career so it was either accountancy or law and i chose the latter as it interests me more, although i have to say that it is a good wage im lookin for in the end and im willing to sacrifice now for it but if i get by all the hurdles is there financial reward? from what i gathered lookin at some salary statistics is solicitors can earn 60 - 80k per year and barrissters 90k+ ?!? obviously not while devilling i know but would that be right after a few years practice perhaps? thanks for the help as its better to find this out now than later on!
oh and great links by the way, although by the sound of things they should call it bein a bitch instead of a devil! :rolleyes:

IANAL (hullaballoo's test a/c)

dats_right wrote:

...PS> You should take a look at this article 'Why Lawyer's are so Miserable?', here's the link:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article2045254.ece

Although the rest of your advice is quite good, I would like to point out that the only part of that link worth reading is the second comment down, from a person named Clay, from Manchester.

@ King=stew, if by 'a few years' you mean 'more than a decade', then yes, the pay for barristers can reach high figures.

johnnyskeleton

The traditional progression is like this:

1) 1-3 years - boredom, humiliation, poverty, solitude, less respect than the worst criminals, whenever you do get something good you will already have agreed to do a menial task for someone else, occasional bursts of madness followed by long waits to get paid. You will probably have to work part time and try your hand lecturing/tutoring/writing etc. you spend your days hanging around the library or the district court trying to get solicitors to look at you (they won't). You might have to do research/paperwork for your master, and you don't get paid for this. You will have to juggle your own miniscule practice with the demands of your master and with other attempts to further your career.

If you survive this go to stage 2.

2) 3-7 years - getting work and enough to live, but not as much as you would had you dedicated your life to another profession. Periods of stress followed by periods of relative ease, long holidays in which you can do your paperwork or spend lying on a beach.

If you thrive in this environment go to stage 3.

3) 7 years to senior counsel - hard work but you could have a devil to do some of that for you, every day should involve some element of court work, and the paperwork will never, ever be complete (just moved around a lot). You could be earning very good money, good money, or normal money, but if you like advocacy then there will be good job satisfaction.

If you distinguish yourself go to stage 4.

4) Senior counsel - in court most days, only dealing with decent cases, great money, funky costumes and if you like you only need to come in at 11 o'clock. Someone else can always do the paperwork.

When you are sick of the rat race, why not go to stage 5.

5) High Court judge - does exactly what it says on the tin.

This is the traditional logic, so there is no reason to say that this is what it will be like next year or the year after. There are more people becoming barristers than ever before, there is pressure from the competition authority and there are hundred of little butterflies which, if they flap their wings at the wrong time they bring massive storms in young barrister's careers. On the other hand there are more judges coming in and crime, mortgage possessions and company liquidations are all growth areas at the moment.

As for a typical day or week, I don't think there is such a thing for barristers. Courts sit from 10.30-4.30 and any paper work/prep work can be done at any time. At the lowest(i.e. first few years) and the highest (i.e. top senior counsel and very senior junior) parts of the profession you would be lucky to know where you are going to be a day in advance. Therefore, you would have to be prepared for anything at all times. You could work from 9am one day until 6pm the following day sometimes; other times you will be just hanging around.

But most importantly, and I cannot stress this enough, you get to wear a wig.

johnnyskeleton

Times Article wrote:

the cumulatively lowering nature of the work. We all end up being shaped by our careers. Journalists become rude, incorrigible gossips. Police officers start believing what they read in the Daily Mail. Lawyers, meanwhile, become competitive, aggressive, judgmental, analytical, adversarial, emotionally detached, paranoid of being sued and, worst of all, pessimistic. Being a good lawyer involves assuming that people will do the most awful things and that treachery is to be expected. It’s inevitable that this negativity eventually seeps into their personal lives.

If this is true then it will give you some idea of the differences in the legal profession. Solicitors are a sprightly, elfin folk who like dancing, having a good time and are always on cue to help you with any legal problems you might have. Barristers, on the other hand, are dour individuals, who dress up and say things they don't mean just to feel normal.

king-stew wrote:

but after four years of wasting time i decided to [waste another 4 years becoming a barrister], although i have to say that it is [not the money] im lookin for in the end and im willing to sacrifice now [because I love legal argument so much] but if i get by all the hurdles is there financial reward?

Yes, but the money is neither easy nor excessive at any stage, and compared to working just as hard at another profession (e.g. consultant neurosurgeon, partner in a big solicitor's firm, senior accountant, property developer etc) it's probably less.

king-stew wrote:

from what i gathered lookin at some salary statistics is solicitors can earn 60 - 80k per year and barrissters 90k+ ?!? obviously not while devilling i know but would that be right after a few years practice perhaps? thanks for the help as its better to find this out now than later on!

Statistics like this are unreliable because they are averages. The top solicitors can make much more money than the top barristers, the bottom solicitors almost always make more money than the bottom barristers, and in the creamy middle there is a large variety. But many barristers leave the bar due to financial constraints, and they don't get any pensions, heath plans, paid sick leave, etc so if your sole motivation is money then think of both professions as even, or lean towards solicitors.

Amazotheamazing

Some great advice on this thread.

I feel the need to point out how mundane the vast majority of legal work is. Imo, very few middle of the road barristers or solicitors get rich off what they earn, it's what they do with what they earn.

Hard work in most professions will get you some degree of good money.

NoQuarter

well i only said it was the money to feel normal, its really the wig i'm after

well it does sound like the kind of job that would suit me as in not having a typical day, changing hours etc etc.... and i do like the sound of the progression to a judge which is the basic plan for the moment (minus of course the humiliation, poverty and less respect than the worst criminals!)
so ill do the degree anyways and theres apparantly a lot of other career options for law degree holders?!
i dont mind hard work or a long slog at the start once i get something out of it in ten years, i spoke to a guy recently who had been in the army for 26 years, he earned 750 euro a week and in this day and age thats buttons so thats what i dont want, same with my dad, he comes home from one job and has to go to another and i just wont do that so thats the money motive but apart from that it does seem very interesting (i watch judge judy every day like!! ----joke!:o)
i know i have tons more questions but i cant think of em now but thanks for the replies folks, its been the best advice ive got so far seeing as i dont actually know any bassisters or solicitors myself!

Tom Young

King-Stew, sounds like you don't need any encouragement.

As they say at Nike 'Just Do It!' work hard, ignore the grousers and all will come right.

Best of luck with it. Don't look back, look forward.

Amazotheamazing

king-stew wrote:

i know i have tons more questions but i cant think of em now but thanks for the replies folks, its been the best advice ive got so far seeing as i dont actually know any bassisters or solicitors myself!

Get to know them now, seriously, start building relationships with some if you can.

NoQuarter

oh god i actually wrote bassisters, youd think it was a typo but youd be wrong, i have a bass guitar in my hand now really!!
anyways as mr. amazo said there certainly is great advice on this thread so ill just do what i usually do and go with the flow and hopefully things work out because i pretty much have my heart set on the barrister thing.(especially paying 12000 to the kings inn, hmm cant wait to do that!)

id love to get to know some people in the legal field but i dont even know of any! i might scare people if i hang around the courts every day i dunno!!

so on that note.....anyone got any part time work????

Tom Young

Plenty of scary looking people hanging around the courts on a daily basis, and some of them are dressed up!

NoQuarter

ha ha yup, as babybarista says, "so much for Atticus Finch!"

johnnyskeleton

king-stew wrote:

id love to get to know some people in the legal field but i dont even know of any! i might scare people if i hang around the courts every day i dunno!!

so on that note.....anyone got any part time work????

Ring the courts service and ask them about becoming a judge's tipstaff/crier. That's my dream job, and you will meet loads of barristers, solicitors, judges etc. Plus, you get to push people out of your way.

NoQuarter

only problem there johnny would be id be in college full time during the week so im asuming i couldnt do that during the weekend? good idea for during the summer tho ill definitly keep that in mind!

dats_right

I think your statistics regarding wages are wide of the mark. I think the rates you provide for solicitors is grossly underestimated and looks more like the scale for primary school teachers or somesuch than a solicitor. Sure a Newly Qualified Solicitor wouldn't get out of bed for less than €55k! In reality salaried solicitors can earn up to about €150k and equity partners in the big firms well you could probably muliply that a couple of times.
(See generally http://www.brightwater.ie/documents/Salary_Survey_2007.pdf)

From reading what you say in your post OP, please don't take this as an insult, but you seem quite naive regarding the road ahead. Unless you have an approved law degree you're looking at €20k in tutiton fees to King's Inns and three years study, then you have a years devilling although most, if they can, do a second year unofficial devilling with a different master and after that you will be earning practically NOTHING for several years(by that i mean less than social welfare). So picture it, in five years time you will be earning less than you would flipping burgers in McDonald's and with practically nothing to do, unless daddy or an uncle is a solicitor and can send you some scraps.

There is an enormous over supply of BL's at the moment, in the region of 100-120 per year, there simply isn't the work to sustain that many barristers. Remember also that 95% of these highly qualified and intelligent individuals all have the same aspiration as you, of struggling through the first few years and eventually making a decent living at it. Unfortunately, it is a sad fact that most will leave practise within the first few years because they underestimated the hardship involved. I'm sure that each one of them thought that they would be the exception too and i'm also certain that those who leave practise don't do so easily. Especially having regard to the investment in terms of time, money and even emotionally into succeeding at the Bar. Don't you think that if these people were eaning anything like €90k that they would be staying at the Bar?

There is no doubt that you will need significant financial support from someone, be it; personal, parental, banks or from a partner, but families and partners should be fully informed of all of the risks too. Furthermore, in my opinion, unless you are exceptionally gifted or exceptionally lucky you will fail at the Bar, of coure, it will help to have family contacts who work in insurance companies (but even that has largely dried up as PIAB has decimated PI work for barristers) or who are solicitors. But, if you are no good it won't matter who your contacts are as the briefs will soon dry up.

OP, you will probably perceive me to be exceptionally negative and perhaps even trying to talk you out of it, however, I can assure you I'm not. I just think that you may be in danger of viewing the thing with rose-tinted specs. It is a massive step if you decide to embark on the long road to a viable career at the Bar and shouldn't be undertaken lighlty. You need to go into it with your eyes wide open to all of the risks and should you decide that the risks are worth it, then you should plan ahead in terms of finance and back-up plans.

On a positive note the BL qualification is an exceptionally good qualification to have and if things don't work out the way you had planned then you will have many, many options as the skills learnt are easily transferable into many fields. Some examples: In-house legal depts., banks, legal sections in various branches of the civil service, academia to name just a few. And OP please don't take my negativity personally, as I genuinely wish you all the best whatever you decide.

EdgarAllenPoo

Going the Griffith LLB route myself in a few weeks. I couldn't handle being a barrister mostly because I have no legal connections and would be working for peanuts for years but I would prefer the security of being a solicitor.

I had a notion that being a solicitor I could choose not to put my foot inside a court and bury myself in conveyancing until I;m old and grey but my brother (who's a garda) has told me that even the most mickey mouse of charges (it seems everyone has a solicitor and barrister to try and get them off) will see me in the district court for hours.

So much for the easy life:D At least it's all five years (and a lot of money) away.

ladylorenzo

While I agree that there is some great advice on here (have had quite a giggle at some of the liks too!), I'm just curious to know whethere it is all purely opinion unsupported by fact or whether the posters have real experience in the professional fields mentioned. In particular, since the references to salaries vary so much ,I'm just wondering of anyone is actually working as a Barrister/Solicitor or has a friend doing so that can verify the figures??

EdgarAllenPoo

The best evidence of the salries that I found was in the jobs section of the Law Society Gazette and IrishJobs.ie. Realistically you'd start on between €30-35k as a solicitor.

I would be interested to know what other (genuine) options are open to law graduates.

ladylorenzo

GDM wrote:

The best evidence of the salries that I found was in the jobs section of the Law Society Gazette and IrishJobs.ie. Realistically you'd start on between €30-35k as a solicitor.

I would be interested to know what other (genuine) options are open to law graduates.

€30-35K sounds about right.I'm a trainee at the minute and they are the sort of figures that I'd always had in my head(for newly qualified Solicitors outside of Dublin anyway). Realistically, it's not nearly as lucrative as many would like to believe.Well, not at the beginning anyway!

As for other options, you can do down any route with a law degree but in many ways, it's like an Arts degree - you need to choose a specific area and specialise ie Teaching, Business, Lecturing,Legal Exec etc. (All will require further study) or you could look into the Civil Service i.e Diplomatic Corps., Banking, Company Secretary, Law Enforcement.... The options are endless really as a Law Degree is always an asset.

johnnyskeleton

GDM wrote:

I had a notion that being a solicitor I could choose not to put my foot inside a court and bury myself in conveyancing until I;m old and grey but my brother (who's a garda) has told me that even the most mickey mouse of charges (it seems everyone has a solicitor and barrister to try and get them off) will see me in the district court for hours.

It depends what firm you work for. You don't have to go to a criminal firm, or even a firm that does some criminal. You can go to a top 5 firm (they fear crime, and only litigate at the top end of civil) or you could work for a conveyancing only firm. I'm not sure that anyone anywhere has done a masters in conveyancing, but if you did I'm sure that any firm you go to would put you to good use there. So if you don't want to go to the district court, you don't have to (unless you get caught drunk driving after a long night schmoozing corporate clients).

ladylorenzo wrote:

I'm just curious to know whethere it is all purely opinion unsupported by fact or whether the posters have real experience in the professional fields mentioned. In particular, since the references to salaries vary so much ,I'm just wondering of anyone is actually working as a Barrister/Solicitor or has a friend doing so that can verify the figures??

The whole boards system is based on arguments abstract from the individuals. I could say that I'm the revenue commissioner and tell you exactly how much every single barrister and solicitor earns, or I could be the chief justice, but would it make any difference? Why would you accept the unsupported opinion of someone who claims to be a legal professional over the unsupported opinion of someone who doesn't?

Amazotheamazing

At some point in the very near future, imo, we will have produced too many solicitors and too many barristers for this country to maintain litigious as it is. Look how hard it already is to survive at the bar or to get an apprenticeship. It'll be interesting to see how it all goes.

EdgarAllenPoo

That's what one of my old lecturers told us. By the time we finished college in 08 there would be far too many barristers for the amount of work available and they would either be unemployed or have to seek employment outside the WAG(wig and gown) brigade.

NoQuarter

dats_right, no i dont take it personnally at all i appreciate your tryin to put me wide and your right i may be a bit naive when it comes to the years after devilling as it seems that will be a very unclear time in my life but thats why i asked this question now, either way i will do the law degree and decide a plan of action towards the end of the three years, who knows what the future holds! financially it will be tough but college is already half paid for because ive just come back from 6 months over in kosovo with the army so that lined my pockets nicely but i have planned right through to paying the 12,000 entrance fee for the kings inn, wheter i get that far is another thing...
the figures i got for the salaries were just found on the internet so i didnt consider them gospel.
it may turn out that i decide to try become a solicitor but at the moment a barristers work strikes me as more interesting, although it will be a long 3 years so things may very well change,
anyways any advice is much appreciated even if you think it may be portrayed as negative id still like to hear everyones opinion beacause as you said its not a decision that can be taken lightly,
so thanks for all the help so far everyone

NoQuarter

GDM wrote:

That's what one of my old lecturers told us. By the time we finished college in 08 there would be far too many barristers for the amount of work available and they would either be unemployed or have to seek employment outside the WAG(wig and gown) brigade.

hey GDM ive just had an idea
we should just wait till all the WAG's realise theres no more work, leave their profession, an we can step right in.....
hmm, yep seems fool proof to me!!! :eek:
ferrari or posche???

Amazotheamazing

The question is, what is available with a law degree outside the WAG, most other professions will probably want a masters on top of a law degree.

clairepotatoes

Amazotheamazing wrote:

The question is, what is available with a law degree outside the WAG, most other professions will probably want a masters on top of a law degree.

I find it strange that if they are not interested in the holder of a law degree that they would be interested in someone with a masters. Unless you mean a masters in a discipline other than law. Surely since most other professions require you to pass exams, they would rather you have passed those.

EdgarAllenPoo

king-stew wrote:

hey GDM ive just had an idea
we should just wait till all the WAG's realise theres no more work, leave their profession, an we can step right in.....
hmm, yep seems fool proof to me!!! :eek:
ferrari or posche???

I'm more of a passat man myself (it's cheaper).

Another thing to consider is that if you go the Kings Inns route you'll more than likely have to stay in Dublin as that's where the majority of the work will be whereas if you take the Law Society route you have a bit more room to move.

I would imagine it would be hard to afford Dublin rent rates on a junior council's earnings or lack thereof.

Amazotheamazing

clairepotatoes wrote:

I find it strange that if they are not interested in the holder of a law degree that they would be interested in someone with a masters. Unless you mean a masters in a discipline other than law. Surely since most other professions require you to pass exams, they would rather you have passed those.

Depends what area you want to move into, but yes, I meant a masters in an area other than law.

dats_right

Lady Lorenzo, I am an apprentice solictor and have been for over a year and I am in daily contact with barristers of all levels of experience.

GDM, what are you talking about? 30-35k for a NQ solicitor? Are you talking about 1997 rates or something? What NQ is going to work for less than their own secretary? NQ generally earn between 45-55 and that isn't just the big or medium firms, small firms will pay that too. I have never seen a job advertising a salary of 30-35k for a NQ (perhaps you could give me a link of jobs in Ireland- I can give you plenty of 50k jobs for NQ's). Personally, I would be highly insulted if I was offered such a comparative pittance (given the sacrifices made in terms of studying for the notorious Fe-1's, a low paid apprenticeship and never having any cash because of all of this), why would people put themselves through this to earn 30-35k when you could earn that and more as a unior manager in Tesco's!

http://www.irishjobs.ie/JobDesc.asp?ID=4460769&MID=3238 (55k-65k NQ)

http://www.irishjobs.ie/JobDesc.asp?ID=4463039&MID=1510 (45-55k NQ)

http://www.brightwater.ie/job-details.aspx?jobid=11672 (60K NQ)

http://www.brightwater.ie/job-details.aspx?jobid=12119 (60k NQ)

http://www.brightwater.ie/job-details.aspx?jobid=11858 (55k NQ in County Louth!!)

http://www.brightwater.ie/job-details.aspx?jobid=12520 (50K NQ GP in Wexford)

http://www.brightwater.ie/job-details.aspx?jobid=12567 (50K for Legal exec.)


In all fairness, no graduate with a professional qualification should work for 30k! Let alone one who has tthe responsibility and work load of a solicitor. If I thought for one moment I'd be working for that I'd tear up my Indentures on the spot.. and consider this now seemingly more lucrative career...

http://jobsearch.monster.ie/getjob.asp?JobID=60968667&AVSDM=2007%2D08%2D13+09%3A01%3A00&Logo=1&cy=ie&brd=1&sort=rv&vw=d&sq=not+++