"Failrail"

Transport21 Fan

...is the opposite of "Palerail".

dermo88

Keep them rolling, I like that slogan.

Irish railway news are moving to a new board. Should be fun. Ahem.

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

Keep them rolling, I like that slogan.

Irish railway news are moving to a new board. Should be fun. Ahem.

Cannot take credit for it. A person who works on the clerical side of this stuff has told me the passenger loadings on the Limerick-Rosslare line have in real numbers decreased since the service was expanded. The cost of running the line has increased. So much for 'community rail'... Anyways, I was telling him I was in favour of passenger services on the line being curtailed back to Clonmel-Limerick Jct to an hourly shuttle service and he said "oh there would be murder in Waterford/Wexford by the usual shower who never took that train in their lives" and I just mentioned about the whole Palerail psychosis, and being a culchie himself he came back with "unlike Failrail, Palerail gets people buying train tickets". I could not stop laughing when he came out with "Failrail" as it's one of them things you expected somebody to have already come up with a long time ago.

As for IRN I don't think that anyone is surprised. It's just validating the spirit and founding culture of that group. The Planters have put a fence up around the manor house to keep the commoners out. Their paranoia has gone into overload of late.

I think anyone who joins that group by subscribing to their Checkpoint Charlie mentality really needs to have a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves do they really wish to demean themselves by doing everything bar sending a handful of irrelevant nobodies a birth cert and a blood sample in order to see yet one more photo of a train that's been posted a billion times over and over already.

Up the Railcar Gricers! At least they are changing with the times, and not retreating into the past, and the vast majority of them appear to be our own.

dowlingm

T21fan - P11 has had their closed paid-member-only section for some time. Not a criticism, it's "their train set" so to speak but this "fence" you speak of is hardly a first. P11's committee have their own philosophy and the hardcore IRNers have theirs and I can't say either side have much sympathy for the other point of view - some IRNers have no notion of how important it is to prioritise urban rail to avoid implosion of our badly planned cities and some P11ers are allergic to even commenting on matters raised on the IRN board.

That said I have been mostly happy to be an occasionally contrarian participant on both but have yet to decide on joining the IRN board. Being a still reasonably new resident of Ontario means I spend a bit more time talking about Toronto transit than Tuam these days. But then I thought the same thing when P11 left hyperboards or whatever it was then.

This particular board is so contentious because it has IRN/WOTers, P11ers and dissenters all together - it's surprising how a reasonably light moderation hand has kept things both orderly and interesting (hi Victor!) not to mention the fact that it keeps all transport discussions together which is crucial to discussing integrated door-to-door solutions in my view.

Prof_V

dowlingm wrote:

T21fan - P11 has had their closed paid-member-only section for some time. Not a criticism, it's "their train set" so to speak but this "fence" you speak of is hardly a first.

In fairness to P11 (I'm a member, though I've had my differences with them in the past; I'm also an IRN member, but hardly ever use the site any more and may let that drop) they have a public section too, which IRN don't appear to be providing. They also have a reasonable excuse for it (that P11 is a passenger group and they want to keep technical stuff off the public section to avoid scaring the general public off, though I suppose it would be theoretically possible to have a technical board within the public area) - what's IRN's justification for their move? (Not a rhetorical question, but I haven't heard one so far.)

SMERSH

I wonder if http://Irishrailwaynews.org will make a reappearance soon?

Zoney

I'll just be glad to no longer have any reason to ever go to an MSN groups board. Bleugh.

dowlingm

no search and no RSS - proof positive MS still don't get the whole internet thing.

Transport21 Fan

dowlingm wrote:

T21fan - P11 has had their closed paid-member-only section for some time.

You are correct to bring this up and I agree. It was an unfortunate decision, along with the press release attacking an SB Post article a while back as I know it seriously damaged P11's image in the print media.

But having said that, P11 from day one have always been a group of people for better or worse worked for free to make railways better for passengers and more importantly for railway's sake. There is and never was a hidden agenda from day one. P11 are allowed to make mistakes. I was one of the founding members and came up with the name "Platform11" and the mission statement of the organisation because A) I was living in Sligo and working in Dublin and could not believe how utterly pointless the rail service was, and I wanted Irish railways to stand on their own two feet and not be a form of welfare or some transport IFA forever dependent on government charity.

IRN on the other hand has always been about funding railways as a hobby. Mainly for the pleasure of people who do not pay taxes on this island. Sorry, but the poor bastard sitting in traffic for 2 hours outside Dunboyne comes before a "Railway Children" special from Sligo to Waterford.

End of story. But I respect your point of view. At the end of the day the truth is the truth and we are all better served by it.

dermo88

Limerick to Rosslare is the ultimate in failrail as it stands. There is no action plan to stop the rot. There is no sign of action that would save and improve it, such as running a Wexford to Waterford service. This should have been done in 1963 after the closure of Macmine-New Ross, but the people in charge were stuck in the old fashioned Victorian timetable mindset. Their thinking "Why do it that way, sure we've always done it like this", and its really screwed us up.

The same applies to providing a proper service for Clonmel, and running a shuttle going from Waterford to Limerick Junction. Its nice, clean and joined up. It could work if the will was there.

But as it stands, its just a long awkward service, its pretty dire.

dermo88

I've grown to prefer boards.ie and Platform11 over IRN. I get a sense that there is one biased moderator on IRN, and whoeever it is, he was involved or assisted the trolling, or the troll. I know this because my posts take longer to be approved above the others. It was amusing to see them wake up to proper moderation standards, after one member shot their mouth off about P11. It was a pure own goal.....and for two months since, they've been screwed up. Priceless.

I'm between two minds on continuing my membership there. boards.ie seems to have acted as a bridge between the saner members of IRN and members of Platform11, and its worked quite effectively in that regard. The locosexual element in IRN are a bit strange, and just like the locomotives and cravens that they love, if they don't wake up and smell the coffee, they won't have anything. As I told them before "Cherish the past, relish the future".

I get a warm glow when I see these new trains. It means that I am going to get free travel when I am old, and that I will be able to use the trains. Between 7 and 10 years ago, none of us expected that. Its good to see that all of it, apart from a few miles will be retained here and there, and for that, we should be grateful. Its good that its being expanded. Its even better that it might (eventually) be good enough to persuade people that they do not need a car dealership.

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

I get a sense that there is one biased moderator on IRN,

Take your pick.

Shunter

I see that Irishrailwaynews.org is back in business. I wonder if they are trying to steal IRNs thunder by getting the jump on them?

paulm17781

Shunter wrote:

I see that Irishrailwaynews.org is back in business. I wonder if they are trying to steal IRNs thunder by getting the jump on them?

Phwoaarrr, pictures section and all.

Zoney

dermo88 wrote:

The same applies to providing a proper service for Clonmel, and running a shuttle going from Waterford to Limerick Junction. Its nice, clean and joined up. It could work if the will was there.

Well, whatever about providing such a service not being high on the agenda - there would be zero chance of a sensible service ever happening if they stop the current token Limerick-Waterford service.

dermo88

I think its this bunch that are setting up www.irishrailwaynews.org

http://groups.msn.com/IrishRailwayTechnologyandinformation/general.msnw

Of course, if we read this, under the topic of 22000 Railcars, you get:

http://groups.msn.com/IrishRailwayTechnologyandinformation/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=74&LastModified=4675635632777414085

"Get rid of this thread!

Its doing us out of jobs!"
However, after inviting me in a few weeks ago, they banned me, because they are the locosexual fringe of IRN who got banned, and one of them was the muppet who shot their mouth off about Derek on P11.

This is the remark I made there, after which I was mysteriously banned. I went there to find out who the troll was, just out of curiosity.

http://groups.msn.com/IrishRailwayTechnologyandinformation/general.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=66&ShowDelete=0&ID_CLast=71&CDir=-1

"And the eventual consequences of using real staff and real trains, if the lessons of the past are not learned are:

The trains are not frequent enough.
The trains are too expensive to operate, fares too high.

And regular passengers lose confidence, decide to buy a car or use a bus.

But I admit, that is a nice sight. Enjoy it while it lasts"

popebenny16

This thread is confusing. Am i right in assuming that T21fan said something about P11 which Dermo88 replied to and T21fan then deleted? Am asking because T21fan amended his post and I cant see anything in the post about P11.

Anyway, just to dispel some paranoia before things get out of hand. I understand that IRN will be launching their new messageboard this weekend and at the same time turning off the old MSN board which will be archive only. There's no big deal about it. Their MSN board was plagued with alternative accounts and I think they are shifting through applications to prevent this happening. After that, they'll turn the board on and we'll be able to see it.

It's on the same boards as the railgricers so you can see it'll be an instant improvement on the current MSN board and fair play to them for recognising the need to have their own website and board, just like P11 has.

In relation to the other issues:

P11 has had a members section since December 2005. The idea is that members who pay membership should have some advantages over those who dont, so they see the members message board, they see certain reports and documents, they get advance viewing of our new website, newsletter, policy documents and will also see the new message board idea when the committee gets around to it. (dont get too excited we're only buying a customised vbulleten skin so it looks pretty). The members also have input into things like the upcoming MetroWest submission and things like that.

In January of this year we moved all technical discussion into the Members section. Why? Because it was boring the arse out of ordinary customers and if you really want to go into technical issues in detail become a member and your input will go into the policy of P11. We want the public message board to simply be a place where you say such and such is broke/late/whatever and it is noted and commented upon. Simple. Dish, dash, dosh.

Regarding the SB "fiasco". Leaving aside the gripes of our former press officer vis a vis our present one the real story was the fact that the DART upgrade programe was a shanbles and IE have no plan B. Want proof of it? DART delays caused by a unit in need of refurbishment which hasnt happened because there was no plan B. Just like there is no plan B for the Cork Trains. That was the story, however, we know what happened and Derek was rightly pissed off about it.

As for losing credibility, well, T21, Ken Griffen has come back to us for stories and printed them and quoted us since that happened. Unlike you, he dosnt bear a grudge. It was just business. Also on the credibility issue, those of you who read the amazing revelations of the Irish Times vis a vis Metro North should know that in February 2005 P11 published the exact same conclusions, and as for T21 itself, we've said all along that its nothing but a PR device.

In conclusion, I wish IRN success in their website. I also wish that I dont have to type these sort of posts, but what the hell, it's Friday and I'm going on holidays this evening.

dermo88

Apologies for the confusion, I'll clarify.

They got paranoid at IRN and tightened up moderation there after a poster called Railcargricer2701 and others started insulting people. That was the start, sometime around February or March. I have private correspondence relating to it from several people. How true it all is, is open to question, but theres a couple of dysfunctional personalities in there who cannot stand the end of their locomotive hauled, semaphore ridden, jointed track, disjointed customer service excuse of a rail network. As a result, they throw their toys out of the pram online, and forget to use a soother.

Andystrains shot his mouth off on IRN and more or less stated that Derek was using Platform11 to sell his films. Which we all know, was just a load of bitter twisted rubbish. This ran the risk of getting IRN into legal problems, and as I mentioned, it was a major own goal.

After that, they were forced to moderate the board properly. After that, the moderators are paranoid. And rightly so.

The links I gave are to a seperate board on MSN, and I suspect that they are the same bunch setting up www.irishrailwaynews.org or whatever it is.

All in all, its fragmentation, caused by a couple of nuts, causing trouble, who cannot live and let live. Its hard enough liking railways and being treated as strange for that. But when people who like railways start scrapping amongst themselves, its a bit crazy, to say the least.

I will strongly disagree with two posters in there. Ivatt is one. Alan Helfner is the other, and its because their views are not grounded in reality. There are two others, who are obsessed with developing "The Wesht", and their views are fairly strong, that they have almost convinced me over time, that Potato Blight and Cromwell were'nt good enough. But saying that makes me as bad as them.

popebenny16

Yes, but how did P11 get dragged into this thread at all????

Transport21 Fan

I deleted nothing about P11. It all there. P11 got dragged into the board because Dermo made a comparison between that and IRN near the top of the thread I think?

Have you found a new PRO yet? Can I have the job? I am dying to get back in. Please!

popebenny16

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Have you found a new PRO yet? Can I have the job? I am dying to get back in. Please!

Have you any experience in PR?

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

But when people who like railways start scrapping amongst themselves, its a bit crazy, to say the least.

That's the nature of the beast. You talk to anybody involved in any kind of railway organisation and they all say the same thing the in-fighting comes with the territory. Not just here in Ireland. In the USA were was a steam train group back in the 1970's were one of them got a gun and shot three of them dead on the footplate while they were getting ready for a rail tour. So as bad as it gets in Ireland, nothing compared to other places.

It'll never change either.

Transport21 Fan

popebenny16 wrote:

Have you any experience in PR?

My background is in corporate communications and marketing. I can list the names of the Wall Street firms I worked for, but you wouldn't believe me. I look like a movie star, wear only designer suits and have a superb people skills. I am a dream come true in many ways except I do not drink or smoke or pass lude comments about women so I am not fun to be around in that sense.

Was only messing about the PRO stuff. It's a thankless job in many ways and you have to deal with all kinds of headcases and weirdos calling you up at all hours. But if P11 needs any help let me know. I'll ask around. Serious.

popebenny16

Actually, Dermo, I don't "like" railways, I just use them.

popebenny16

I can list the names of the Wall Street firms I worked for, but you wouldn't believe me

Why wouldn't I? I'm not one of the nutters. Usually.

I look like a movie star, wear only designer suits and have a superb people skills.

Same here. Would hate the competition though we could swing sponsorship from American Crew and Nivea for men.

I do not drink or smoke or pass lude comments about women so I am not fun to be around in that sense.

Well, as you know the present make up of the P11 committee is like an English Northern working-mans club. We have decided to send out our first honoury membership to the late, great, Bernard Manning. It's hard to see how you'll fit in, you know what Mark is like.

It's a thankless job in many ways and you have to deal with all kinds of headcases and weirdos calling you up at all hours.

Ah, you have fond memories of Mark and Derek so.

dermo88

Thats all fine by me benny, you have no need to explain yourself.

As far as I am concerned, 1 user is a far better judge than 100 enthusiasts. Lets take a mad idea for failrail, just off the top of my head. We'll call this satirical piece, "The Life of Brian"

Now, sometimes IRN is good. But much of my complaints are down to my writing style. There are times I get the claws out, and the two posters I mentioned are often the targets. Simply because the ideas are outlandish.

We all get ideas, but the Rosslare to Limerick thing is a typical ongoing problem. So too is the Nenagh branch. But meanwhile, Brian is not the messiah, hes just a very naughty boy.

Why?

Because here we have a character who gets a bunch of parish pump peasants together in Sligo one week. Next week its Donegal. Then its Claremorris. But its never Ballymun, Dunboyne, Cabra, Inchicore. I'd like to agree that "Rural Light Rail is the next big thing", but its not. I'm not going to lie in the face of all the evidence.

In short, in my eyes, failrail is all about ideas that are 100 years behind the times, possibly 50 years ahead of the times, but are nowhere in between. Based on past history, we are better off retaining some of the failrail, just in case it becomes an asset in 50 years time. Judging by Limerick to Ennis, and the Navan line, that is definitely a possibility none of us can ignore.

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

In short, in my eyes, failrail is all about ideas that are 100 years behind the times,

Didn't take long for "Failrail" to pass into common usage. It has joined "locosexual" and belongs to the ages now.

"Hanging Basketism" is a good one to describe the CIE institutionalism.

Transport21 Fan

Speaking of Hanging Basketism, am I the only person worried about why not so much as a single sleeper has not been laid on the Midleton branch?

Also what happened to Meath-on-Track. They were doing great work and it's all gone a bit quiet of late. Which is unfortunate as with all IE lack of momentum on the Midleton branch, they are badly needed in case nothing happens on Dunboyne either.

popebenny16

Gets better. The Platform 11 phrase "vomit comet" was used against Barry Kenny on Liveline yesterday, describing the CDE.

paulm17781

Transport21 Fan wrote:

It has joined "locosexual" and belongs to the ages now.

Isn't that one of yours too?

popebenny16

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Also what happened to Meath-on-Track. They were doing great work and it's all gone a bit quiet of late. Which is unfortunate as with all IE lack of momentum on the Midleton branch, they are badly needed in case nothing happens on Dunboyne either.

Yes, I was wondering this as well. Site is gone, blog not updated since 20th June and NJ hasnt posted here, on P11 or IRN in ages.