Lost phone - huge bill

mickjohnlong

gillo wrote:

Just checked the website and it pretty obvious that the Speak Easy customer care is not 24 hours while the bill pay customer care is open 24 hours, heres the link.

Personnally, I'd say you are liable for the bill, but if you can't afford it (by can't afford I mean not have the money to pay it as opposed to not wanting to pay it) you can try coming to an arrangement to pay it over a number of months.

TBH, I don't see the system of limiting calls working at all, even if it was an opt-in service- once someone hits their limit they's simply call their network and ask them to either lift the limit or to remove it altogether. Their are a number of ways to check your balance at any stage during your billing cycle in place already.

sorry about that didnt read it properly

Paulw

adm wrote:

"The operator says that there is a system in place to alert them to unusual call patterns"

This refers to vodaphone in the uk

A small note, but the systems in use in Vodafone UK are very very different from those in Vodafone Ireland.

Just because it's used in the UK doesn't mean it can be used here in Ireland.

I think most operators have a 24 hrs customer care system for bill phones, but only 12 hr support for PAYG,

Sam Vimes

MrPudding wrote:

Ah you do realise that they do not need to actually watch the account with a human don't you? Monitoring is very easy. If they did not monitor your call usage how could they bill you?

With my UK o2 phone when my call charges equal my monthly subscription in value, I am sent a text alerting me to the fact. If this had of been in place the OP would not have a €900 bill.

MrP

as ciaranfo said, he would have only got the text if he had his phone. if he had his phone it wouldn't have been stolen. if it hadn't have been stolen, no text would have been sent because no calls would have been made and there would have been no problem

MrPudding wrote:

So what would happen if you were unaware that your phone was lost or stolen or were unable to report it stolen for some reason?

that's not the company's problem. when you sign up to a contract you agree that you are liable for all unauthorised calls if you report it more than 24 hours after its stolen/lost. the reason you didn't report it is irrelevant

MrPudding wrote:

The point is, the facility is there to automatically know when an account gets over a certain limit or other figure. It would not be hard for the operators to have actions hanging off these alerts. If the text message is not responded to the account gets blocked.

what's preventing the thief from responding to the text?

DeepBlue wrote:

The fact is that they know that you didn't use it and yet they expect you to cough up for some criminal even though you've been registered with them for years - that's a sh**ty attitude for them to have.

o2 didn't run up the bill either. why should they pay what probably amounts to hundreds of thousands a year because of lazy/negligent/careless people who don't report theft or loss for whatever reason?


i can confirm garth's story about people going mental about 3 cutting people off at a certain limit.

Donald Fagen

adm wrote:

Hi,
on saturday night/sunday the 24th of june i lost my mobile - i didn't realise untill late on sunday night and so i didn't report it till monday morning

And you're not 100% responsible because?

It just seems to me like a bit of a scam on behalf of o2

How? They didn't lose your phone, they didn't report it stolen 2 days late, and they didn't run up the calls. What's your problem? And where's the "scam"?
Just take it like a man, and accept that you fooked up because of your own blatant stupidity, and take it as a lesson learned.

Donald Fagen

MrPudding wrote:

The point is, the facility is there to automatically know when an account gets over a certain limit or other figure. It would not be hard for the operators to have actions hanging off these alerts. If the text message is not responded to the account gets blocked.

What I am trying to say is this, if the phone companies want to stop this kind of thing they could and there would be little or no expense in doing it.

MrP

So, kinda like a safety net for idiots who don't want to be responsible for their own actions?

If my phone was stolen, I'd probably notice within about 20 mins, and it would be cancelled 5 minutes after that. 2 days??? seriously...

adm

Donald Fagen wrote:

So, kinda like a safety net for idiots who don't want to be responsible for their own actions?

If my phone was stolen, I'd probably notice within about 20 mins, and it would be cancelled 5 minutes after that. 2 days??? seriously...

Yeah kinda like , um , i dont know a credit card limit?!!

To be clear - i thought i'd lost it , not that it was stolen.and it was not 2 days exactly . actually when i worked it out - i missed the 24 hour deadline by 3 hours.

Now o2 accept it was stolen and accept i didn't make those calls and are still charging me for them - despite the fact (and please don't argue this point) the calls themselves will have cost o2 next to nothing - i'm sorry but that strikes me as wrong and yes i'd call it a scam.

Sam Vimes

adm wrote:

Yeah kinda like , um , i dont know a credit card limit?!!

credit cards usually have a much bigger limit than €900

adm wrote:

Now o2 accept it was stolen and accept i didn't make those calls and are still charging me for them - despite the fact (and please don't argue this point) the calls themselves will have cost o2 next to nothing - i'm sorry but that strikes me as wrong and yes i'd call it a scam.

the guy rang internationally. the foreign network will send o2 a whopping bill. what you are saying would only be valid if the person called an o2 ireland number. that's why you can get unlimited on network calls on bill pay with both meteor and vodafone. as you say, those calls cost nothing. the same is not true of off network calls

Donald Fagen

adm wrote:

Yeah kinda like , um , i dont know a credit card limit?!!

That's totally different. A Credit Card limit is based on how much the issuing company/bank think you can afford to clock up, and has nothing to with theft protection. Irrelevant analogy there.

Now o2 accept it was stolen and accept i didn't make those calls and are still charging me for them - despite the fact (and please don't argue this point) the calls themselves will have cost o2 next to nothing - i'm sorry but that strikes me as wrong and yes i'd call it a scam.

€900 in 2 days = tonnes of international calls = O2 getting billed more, as per the previous posters explanation above. Your defense is just plain stupid. The calls were made on YOUR phone, which YOU are responsible for. YOU signed a contract agreeing to those terms. But now you want out, and expect O2 to accept responsibility for your inactions and foot the bill?

"Ah sure, even though it's 100% my fault, why should I have to pay?" Be a man, and take responsibility for being a doddery dumbass.

Garth

adm wrote:

How about if you requested a cap? i asked o2 if i could put a cap of 100 euro per month on my bill and they said no.

Incidently have a look at this article - this line caught my eye :
"The operator says that there is a system in place to alert them to unusual call patterns"

This refers to vodaphone in the uk

See I don't even think this would work while roaming -- because they don't even know about the calls sometimes for a week or more.

While it might work for domestic usage, it wouldn't have made a slight bit of difference to the OP's situation.

pow wow

So you didn't make the calls, but it's not who made the calls that matters - it's who is responsible for the account (i.e. you).

And incidentally you could just as easily be scamming them as mcuh as they are supposedly scamming you. From their point of view you could have given the phone to someone or maybe even made the calls yourself....they have no proof to the contrary.

DeepBlue

Commander Vimes wrote:

o2 didn't run up the bill either. why should they pay what probably amounts to hundreds of thousands a year because of lazy/negligent/careless people who don't report theft or loss for whatever reason?

Perhaps because O2 and the other telcos are lazy/negligent/careless themselves?

Mobile phones are small, lightweight, portable devices easily lost or stolen. It doesn't take a genius to see the the likelihood and probability of a thief running up a huge bill in the circumstances described and yet what initiatives or safeguards have the telcos provided? Sweet F.A. And since they've provided sweet f.a. protection they do bear some of the responsibility.

However any accountant looking at the scenario would deduce that the telco would actually make a lot of money if a phone was stolen and a huge bill run up on it so there's absolutely no incentive for them to do anything to lessen the likelihood of it happening.
Yes, you can ensure you're phone is PIN-protected which is very useful if you have advance knowledge that it's going to get lost or be stolen :rolleyes: .

Part of the problem is that we're so used to taking it up the ass from the telcos that we've come to the stage that when they say "Bend over" we say "How far?"

adm

Donald Fagen wrote:

Be a man, and take responsibility for being a doddery dumbass.

ha ha you can impugn my masculinity all you like.
I happen to disagree with most of what you've said but i'm
not going to bother arguing further.

adm

ellscurr wrote:

From their point of view you could have given the phone to someone or maybe even made the calls yourself....they have no proof to the contrary.

Thats true i suppose but i have reported the theft to the police so i'm not sure what else i can do? i'm a legitimate business customer and have been for some years.

Nody

DeepBlue wrote:

Mobile phones are small, lightweight, portable devices easily lost or stolen.


Yes, you can ensure you're phone is PIN-protected which is very useful if you have advance knowledge that it's going to get lost or be stolen

You can't have both ways. It is about personal resonsability, he could have called O2 in his 24h grace period and simply ask "I can't find my phone, has any calls been made from it?".

MOH

DeepBlue wrote:

Perhaps because O2 and the other telcos are lazy/negligent/careless themselves?

Mobile phones are small, lightweight, portable devices easily lost or stolen. It doesn't take a genius to see the the likelihood and probability of a thief running up a huge bill in the circumstances described and yet what initiatives or safeguards have the telcos provided? Sweet F.A. And since they've provided sweet f.a. protection they do bear some of the responsibility.

Uh, they give you 24 hours to report that your phone has been stolen.

I've had phones lost/stolen before. Most of them were prepaid, so I wasn't worried about it. The billpay one was cancelled within a couple of hours.

Saying 24 hours isn't long enough because people are too drunk/hungover on weekends to realise their phone is missing is a joke.

Maybe the telcos should administer some kind of basic common sense test before giving people a phone, that might help.

dellas1979

Hi there.

Who actually pays the bills? If its your company, I would leave them the bill explaining what happened and let them sort it/fight it out between them.

On another note, I know you thought you'd lost it and you are making comparisons to credit cards and all that, but if I couldnt find my credit card after about an hour of intense searching, I would cancel it. That is what I would do for a bill phone also. It doesnt cost me anything and gives me peace of mind.

And incidentally, I presume again, that the phone or your company have insurance on it?

adm

dellas1979 wrote:

On another note, I know you thought you'd lost it and you are making comparisons to credit cards and all that, but if I couldnt find my credit card after about an hour of intense searching, I would cancel it. That is what I would do for a bill phone also. It doesnt cost me anything and gives me peace of mind.

I will treat it like a credit card from now on , believe me - now if only the phone companies would do the same.i really just don't get why they can't spot unusual phone patterns - like the cc companies do.

Its a business phone but we're a small business and i have an agreement with the boss that i pay for personal stuff so i have no choice. also insurance apparently doesn't cover it.

Donald Fagen

adm wrote:

I will treat it like a credit card from now on , believe me - now if only the phone companies would do the same..

"Oh please babysit me, O2; I can't take responsibility for my mobile phone!! Why should I be responsible for my own actions? That's a scam!!! Boo hoo!"

Reminds me of that episode of The Simpsons: "Can't someone else do it?"

also insurance apparently doesn't cover it.

Insurance covers accidents - not stupidity.

Look adm: you obviously don't agree with me, even though I'm making perfect sense, but what happened was 100% your own fault. Take it on the chin, move on, and stop passing the blame & whining.

Paulw

adm wrote:

i really just don't get why they can't spot unusual phone patterns - like the cc companies do.

Because the phone companies don't monitor your phone usage.

And, can you define unusual?? Say you have a phone for 6 months, only local calls, and then you call a relative in the US who has a serious medical problem. You have to call each day, a few times, to check that they are alright. Now, if the phone company cut your phone service, at this critical time, you'd be posting here complaining that they are monitoring your calls and not treating you as an adult.

YOU are liable for your phone. YOU didn't report it lost/stolen in time. YOU didn't act. Why should they be liable for YOUR mistake??

If you think O2 are different from Vodafone or Meteor, take note - they aren't. And if you don't pay the bill, it will be flagged and you may have problems signing up to other operators.

So, be a responsible customer, and pay your bill, like the rest of us do.

Sam Vimes

DeepBlue wrote:

Mobile phones are small, lightweight, portable devices easily lost or stolen. It doesn't take a genius to see the the likelihood and probability of a thief running up a huge bill in the circumstances described and yet what initiatives or safeguards have the telcos provided? Sweet F.A. And since they've provided sweet f.a. protection they do bear some of the responsibility.

they provide people with a facility to block their phone at a moment's notice. What else do you expect them to do besides cut thousands of people off because they've decided to call their aunt in poland?

Credit card companies monitor unusual usage because a card can be cloned and used without the user ever knowing. In that case the user can't be held responsible because the card is still in their pocket and they have no idea what's happening

with a mobile the handset has to be physically taken so its 100% the user's fault if they're too drunk/lazy/stupid to report it

dellas1979 wrote:

if I couldnt find my credit card after about an hour of intense searching, I would cancel it.

why even wait an hour? A new card is free. No more than 5 minutes should elapse between noticing it missing and reporting it stolen

my card went missing a few times. I always found it again but just cut it up and used the new one when it arrived in the post

adm

Paulw wrote:

Because the phone companies don't monitor your phone usage.

And, can you define unusual?? Say you have a phone for 6 months, only local calls, and then you call a relative in the US who has a serious medical problem.

Oh please - give me a break - this was 900 euros in the space of a few hours.

again look at this article i know its vodaphone in the uk but it clearly states they have a system to monitor unusual call patterns.

Anyway I'm paying it and thats an end to it but i think the whole thing stinks.

MOH

adm wrote:

Oh please - give me a break - this was 900 euros in the space of a few hours.

again look at this article i know its vodaphone in the uk but it clearly states they have a system to monitor unusual call patterns.

Anyway I'm paying it and thats an end to it but i think the whole thing stinks.

The same article also says that the calls were made

over a period of 22 hours before she reported it stolen and the phone was barred.

Telephone operators work on the principle that if the customer does not inform them immediately of a loss or theft, then any calls made must be paid for.

So they obviously don't have the 24-hour grace period you had here. So people who report a missing phone within 24 hours are actually worse off under the vodaphone UK system than the one here.

Donald Fagen

adm wrote:

Anyway I'm paying it and thats an end to it but i think the whole thing stinks.

It's stinks of your own stupidity - nothing else. Nothing else. There are no other factors to even consider here.

Paulw

adm wrote:

again look at this article i know its vodaphone in the uk but it clearly states they have a system to monitor unusual call patterns.

Anyway I'm paying it and thats an end to it but i think the whole thing stinks.

As I stated before, just because they have it in the UK in no way means that they can even have this here. I work in the telecoms industry, so I know what I'm talking about.

I'm glad you're paying the bill that you're liable for.

Maybe next time you'll pay more attention to your phone.

Donald Fagen

Paulw wrote:

I'm glad you're paying the bill that you're liable for.

haha, yeah - what a hero! lol

NEWS FLASH: Guy takes responsilibilty for own actions!

optiplexgx270

ok you missed it (24 hour deadline) by 3 hours does that not mean you only have to pay for 3 hours of calls? and not the last 24 hours of calls?

DeepBlue

Commander Vimes wrote:

Credit card companies monitor unusual usage because a card can be cloned and used without the user ever knowing. In that case the user can't be held responsible because the card is still in their pocket and they have no idea what's happening

Tbh you're just undermining your own argument here. CC companies have taken steps to combat theft and fraud because they recognise they have some responsibility to do so.
They could equally argue that why should they pay for users who are too drunk/lazy/stupid/whateveryou'rehavingyourself to get caught with a whopping bill but they don't although I'd be surprised if the chargeback feature on credit cards was there from the beginning.

Eventually telcos will introduce measures that make it more difficult for what happened to the OP to happen to others. It's just that while it's financially in their interest to do nothing those measures may take some time to appear.

MrPudding

Commander Vimes wrote:

as ciaranfo said, he would have only got the text if he had his phone. if he had his phone it wouldn't have been stolen. if it hadn't have been stolen, no text would have been sent because no calls would have been made and there would have been no problem

I mentioned the text simply to illustrate that there are systems in place that can trigger actions should certain limits be reached.

Commander Vimes wrote:

that's not the company's problem. when you sign up to a contract you agree that you are liable for all unauthorised calls if you report it more than 24 hours after its stolen/lost. the reason you didn't report it is irrelevant

To use an extreme example, what if you were mugged and subsequently hospitalised and the mugger used your phone while you were in the hospital?

By the way, I have never said o2 should write the calls off.

Commander Vimes wrote:

what's preventing the thief from responding to the text?

It would not simply be a matter of responding to the text. You would have to confim your identity, like you do anytime you call in to discuss your account.

MrP

MrPudding

Donald Fagen wrote:

So, kinda like a safety net for idiots who don't want to be responsible for their own actions?

If my phone was stolen, I'd probably notice within about 20 mins, and it would be cancelled 5 minutes after that. 2 days??? seriously...

Kind of. I personally would notice very quickly also.

MrP

Sam Vimes

DeepBlue wrote:

Tbh you're just undermining your own argument here. CC companies have taken steps to combat theft and fraud because they recognise they have some responsibility to do so.

Not quite. The credit card system is quite flawed in that a card can be easily cloned and used without the owner's knowledge. Credit card companies monitor activity like that because they're liable for all fraudulent transactions resulting from the flaws inherent in credit cards. Its not some idealistic notion of responsibility.

DeepBlue wrote:

They could equally argue that why should they pay for users who are too drunk/lazy/stupid/whateveryou'rehavingyourself

A person who uses an atm that has a skimming machine or got a dodgy shop assistant is not drunk, lazy or stupid

DeepBlue wrote:

Eventually telcos will introduce measures that make it more difficult for what happened to the OP to happen to others. It's just that while it's financially in their interest to do nothing those measures may take some time to appear.

you say that as if its some big evil conspiracy. Your credit card can be copied without your knowledge, your mobile cannot. All you have to do is not be a thick and report it before a bill is run up

MrPudding wrote:

To use an extreme example, what if you were mugged and subsequently hospitalised and the mugger used your phone while you were in the hospital?

That's not o2's problem. They're not a charity. The reason you didn't report your phone is irrelevant

MrPudding wrote:

It would not simply be a matter of responding to the text. You would have to confim your identity, like you do anytime you call in to discuss your account.

MrP

the thief will almost certainly have your drivers licence or maybe even a text in your sent box from the last time you had to verify yourself with all the details he needs.

Op, here's an idea. Some phones have a feature that when you lock them you need to enter the security code to unlock it. The 6230i is one example. Maybe you should invest in one