How is it done in civilised cities?

hgdhgfhgfhgf

I’m talking about transport and traffic.
Just a few observations.
1. For car traffic Dublin city centre is awkward, damn awkward. I mean it’s like Cork was ten years ago in that it’s feel like there’s so many can’t go down this street/no left or right turn unless taxi/bus…I mean how do the powers that be come up with these bright ideas.
Do they think lets screw drivers over or is it genuinely meant to make it easier/quicker for people to take transport?
Has this always been the way? Or were these things recently introduced.
2. This is something I also only noticed lately and that’s the habit of people park and riding, and I don’t mean in the red cow Luas car park!
Various family and friends live awfully close to various luas/popular lines and recently there’s been an increase in the amount of people driving and dumping their cars right in front of their homes all day, Monday to Friday. They then hop on luas/train and into town.
What are people’s opinion on this?
I mean if I lived in Kildare or Meath and worked in Dublin I’d understand the logic to it, but seriously is putting yellow lines/parking permits outside everyones house inevitable in time in places like I described?
Do you do it?!
3. And the sixty million dollar question, when the various roadworks going on in Dublin are finished, ie mad cow and crazy one line temporary system before Naas, will traffic be that much better in Dublin?

seamus

hgdhgfhgfhgf wrote:

3. And the sixty million dollar question, when the various roadworks going on in Dublin are finished, ie mad cow and crazy one line temporary system before Naas, will traffic be that much better in Dublin?

Yes is the answer to that one
The freeflow N7 & N4 junctions, coupled with a three-lane M50 and a government-run/removed toll bridge will dramatically improve the overall situation.
The traffic will still be heavy, but the old days of sitting on the tarmac for 45 minutes just to go two miles will be over.

bazzer

No, it won't. In the case of the N4 inbound, it'll just shift queueing traffic onto the stretch between Palmerstown and Con Colbert Road. In other words the Chapelizod Bypass will become Dublin's newest car park.

RadioCity

The traffic system in Dublin is so perfectly designed to cause complete chaos at all times. The lights at the port tunnel are particularly badly timed.

Traffic lights seem to be timed to change at the same frequency regardless of the time of day or night or regardless of the volume of traffic.

Almost every traffic light junction in Northern Ireland has sensors under the road and change according to the traffic waiting. If there is nothing waiting, they won't change. Equally, if you stopped after the white line and are not over a sensor, the lights still won't change...so you look like a berk til someone else breaks the sensor behind you...

murphaph

RadioCity wrote:

Traffic lights seem to be timed to change at the same frequency regardless of the time of day or night or regardless of the volume of traffic.

you actually couln't be more wrong. Dublin uses SCATS.

SCATS stands for "Sydney Coordinated Adaptive Traffic System". SCATS is an area or urban traffic control (UTC) system. SCATS primarily manages the dynamic (on-line, real-time) timing of signal phases at traffic signals, meaning that it tries to find the best phasing (i.e. cycle times, phase splits and offsets) for the current traffic situation (for individual intersections as well as for the whole network). These adaptive actions are done automatically based on data derived from loop detectors or other road traffic sensors, but may also be adapted by human traffic controllers who observe the whole system.

SCATS is a product of the RTA New South Wales, Australia, and was developed in and for the Sydney road network. Since its original development, SCATS has been installed in over 100 cities throughout the world. Countries where SCATS has been installed include Australia, New Zealand (Auckland and other cities), China, Poland and the Republic of Ireland.

RadioCity wrote:

Almost every traffic light junction in Northern Ireland has sensors under the road and change according to the traffic waiting. If there is nothing waiting, they won't change. Equally, if you stopped after the white line and are not over a sensor, the lights still won't change...so you look like a berk til someone else breaks the sensor behind you...

We have 'em too. Not all junctions are wel designed or well managed of course, but much of the city's junctions are on SCATS and many more do change with demand. My local junctions ALL respond to riding over the sensors as I start work at 6am, I get to see it first hand every morning.

Niall1234

Cork city is still nothing but one was streets in the city centre. Very hard to drive if you don't know it well.

AlekSmart

Whilst SCATS is indeed a vital tool in the management of Dublins traffic flow,I remain uncertain as to the actual extent of its operation.

I would like to know an exact breakdown of SCATS enabled Signal Arrays in the City Centre and also what outer approach junctions are enabled.

I suspect there are quite a few strategic locations which may NOT be SCATS enabled and which as a result act against the principles which SCATS attempts to promote.

Another potential problem I would see is that SCATS may be optomized for the US style "Block Junction" arrangement which flies totally counter to the situation which prevails in Dublin.

Perhaps the most obvious of these types of contradictions can be observed each evening peak on the O Connell Bridge/Eden Quay junction where the entire City Centre traffic flow is regularly compromised by EAST bound DRIVERS failing to observe the law relating to Yellow Box Junctions and Red Traffic signals.

The odd thing about this most predictable of occurences is that the Traffic Corps Gardai are usually to be found sitting on their motorbicycles on the OPPOSITE SIDE to where they are urgently required,ie;on the D`Olier St/Westmoreland St junction.

Most Other European Cities tend to back up their Automated Traffic Control systems with VERY active Traffic Policing.
I suspect anybody who has visited Paris or Madrid will be familiar with the sight and sound of Traffic/Circulation Officers blowing whistles and generally ensuring that recalcitrant drivers pay attention to the signals being displayed for their benefit.

In Dublin it appears that the Garda Traffic Corps are directed to Observe situations developing rather than to actually intervene to prevent such situations developing into REAL problems,which tends to be the usual outcome.

The entire issue really does come back down to Responsibility and in the Dublin context,yet again we have a skip load of agencies sharing this with no single body or individual having enough power or interest to actually make a difference......

How and ever I`m sure that giving all these various worthy bodies a slice of the T21 €34 BILLION will ensure a fantastic improvement........won`t it..?????

gjim

hgdhgfhgfhgf wrote:

I’m talking about transport and traffic.
Just a few observations.
1. For car traffic Dublin city centre is awkward, damn awkward. I mean it’s like Cork was ten years ago in that it’s feel like there’s so many can’t go down this street/no left or right turn unless taxi/bus…I mean how do the powers that be come up with these bright ideas.
Do they think lets screw drivers over or is it genuinely meant to make it easier/quicker for people to take transport?
Has this always been the way? Or were these things recently introduced.

There are too many cars in the city centre particularly during rush hour. The priority for the system is to optimise traffic flow and throughput - not to be "user friendly" or to be simple to navigate. The same is done in all big cities in the world.

Cork is a fraction of the size of Dublin; it makes about as much sense to compare traffic management in Cork with that in Thurles as it does to compare Dublin to Cork in this regard.

2. This is something I also only noticed lately and that’s the habit of people park and riding, and I don’t mean in the red cow Luas car park!
Various family and friends live awfully close to various luas/popular lines and recently there’s been an increase in the amount of people driving and dumping their cars right in front of their homes all day, Monday to Friday. They then hop on luas/train and into town.
What are people’s opinion on this?
I mean if I lived in Kildare or Meath and worked in Dublin I’d understand the logic to it, but seriously is putting yellow lines/parking permits outside everyones house inevitable in time in places like I described?
Do you do it?!

If it doesn't prevent the residents from being able to park (and given the complimentary usage patterns, it generally doesn't seem to), then what's the problem? I am fortunate enough to live near a Luas stop (and own a car) and observe this phenomena daily and don't see how anyone could get indignant if an empty suburban parking space is used by a park n' rider. Each car kept out of the city centre benefits everyone.

3. And the sixty million dollar question, when the various roadworks going on in Dublin are finished, ie mad cow and crazy one line temporary system before Naas, will traffic be that much better in Dublin?

What does it mean for "traffic to be better"? The road system will cater for more vehicle journeys but it probably wont be any faster for any particular individual to get from A to B. This is the nature of urban road building the world over unless you restrict access by charging like in London.

maxheadroom

gjim wrote:

If it doesn't prevent the residents from being able to park (and given the complimentary usage patterns, it generally doesn't seem to), then what's the problem? I am fortunate enough to live near a Luas stop (and own a car) and observe this phenomena daily and don't see how anyone could get indignant if an empty suburban parking space is used by a park n' rider. Each car kept out of the city centre benefits everyone.

Hmmm - what if you're working half days or have gone to an early morning appointment and come back and can't park anywhere near your house because the whole road is full of park and rider's cars? Or, if someone drives over to visit a relative during the day? Or if someone has to call out an engineer to repair some appliance, or get services installed? The problem is you can't tell if someone will need the space during the day. Proper local services connecting with fast radial (maybe orbital too, I'm unconvinced) routes are the answer, not haphazard park and riding.

Del2005

gjim wrote:

If it doesn't prevent the residents from being able to park (and given the complimentary usage patterns, it generally doesn't seem to), then what's the problem? I am fortunate enough to live near a Luas stop (and own a car) and observe this phenomena daily and don't see how anyone could get indignant if an empty suburban parking space is used by a park n' rider. Each car kept out of the city centre benefits everyone.

The major issue with this is that while most peopele will park correctly there is always some gimp who ruins it. People who do this ad hoc park and ride will usually park correctly, but when someone turns late and then parks in a stupid/illeagal place thats when this comes to a head and the council gets out it's tins of yellow paint!

markpb

murphaph wrote:

you actually couln't be more wrong. Dublin uses SCATS.

We have 'em too. Not all junctions are well designed or well managed of course, but much of the city's junctions are on SCATS and many more do change with demand. My local junctions ALL respond to riding over the sensors as I start work at 6am, I get to see it first hand every morning.

There's a huge misconception here. Dublin uses SCATS but only a tiny proportion of the junctions in the city are connected to SCATS. Some junctions have sensors in the road to trigger a change in the lights. Others just work on timers. Others again work on a mixture of SCATS and timers but the traffic levels are so high, SCATS simply gives us and reverts to timers.

Also quite a few of the sensors or connections are broken by construction workers and it isn't always clear that they're broken, especially if they're not connected to SCATS. Also if memory servers, it's only junctions in DCC's remit that are connected to SCATS, DLRCC and Finglal either have no system, a different system or a system that isn't connected to DCC's SCATS system.

seamus

bazzer wrote:

No, it won't. In the case of the N4 inbound, it'll just shift queueing traffic onto the stretch between Palmerstown and Con Colbert Road. In other words the Chapelizod Bypass will become Dublin's newest car park.

I have to disagree.
While the N4 inbound is always quite heavy, the bulk of the traffic problems at the interchange have always been caused by delays to traffic going onto the motorway as opposed to traffic going inbound.

More specifically, the big problems were -
a. The slowness of the M50 north caused the left-hand lane to move slowly.
b. The lights and general slowness of the M50 south caused the right-hand lane to move slowly.
c. People attempting to skip into the right & left hand lanes from the middle lane cause the rest of the system to bung up.

Problem a. has been largely removed already - when you reach the M50 junction now, the left-hand lane is largely fine and moves well, so traffic going straight through can move well.

With the completion of the junction, the only issue will be c. - idiots will still attempt to skip onto the M50 south from the middle lane. With any luck, the freeflow junction will make this a much harder prospect, and this will stop.

While I won't argue that the Chapelizod bypass will be fine, I don't see it getting badly bunged up as there is far less inbound traffic than there would appear to be - most of it is going onto the M50.

Victor

markpb wrote:

Also if memory servers, it's only junctions in DCC's remit that are connected to SCATS, DLRCC and Finglal either have no system, a different system or a system that isn't connected to DCC's SCATS system.

DCC provide some services in this area to the other councils on a contract basis.

murphaph

If anything Palmerstown will bear the brunt at the lights there, not the Chapelizod bypass.

Thelikefaneire

The mad cow is going to be upgraded in time, after a considerable increas in traffic which is happening at the moment along with the widening of the m50.


This is what it will look like:
http://www.m50.ie/pages/pressarea-n7-interchange2.htm


Dublin has been prommised a luas crossover route, two extensions, a third line to Lucan, a metro to the airport and to the west, and The Dart Interconnector. This is all "supposed" to be built by 2015. But knowing the history of construction of anything vital to the public in the past, this will be more like 2030 or 2100.

godtabh

markpb wrote:

Also quite a few of the sensors or connections are broken by construction workers and it isn't always clear that they're broken, especially if they're not connected to SCATS. Also if memory servers, it's only junctions in DCC's remit that are connected to SCATS, DLRCC and Finglal either have no system, a different system or a system that isn't connected to DCC's SCATS system.

DLRCC do have SCATS as it is part of a proposal for a planning permision I'm working on out there.

Terrontress

Anyone who has driven regularly on the roads of both Belfast and Dublin must realise that the traffic lights in Belfast are vastly superior to those in Dublin.

Even for things so simple as traffic light controlled roundabouts, for the few there are, in Belfast have the traffic lights turned off at quiet times.

The Donabate Roundabout can delay someone for hours.

Also, there are so few signal controlled crossroads in Dublin that have a simple red amber green configuration. They all have filter lights and extremely short sequences. A case in point is the Ranelagh triangle junction. Surely that is a simple junction with a ridiculously complicated setup.

Finally the road markings and signage in Belfast are so much easier than in Dublin. It seems to be easier to get into the right lane.

Can anyone tell me where SCATS is operational as the traffic lights in this city seem to be antiquated and I would love to see one which is intelligent.

markpb

Terrontress wrote:

Can anyone tell me where SCATS is operational as the traffic lights in this city seem to be antiquated and I would love to see one which is intelligent.

Try www.dublintraffic.com, doesn't seem to be working for me at the moment but when it does it colour codes roads based on the congestion of the junctions. I think that data comes from Scats but I'm not sure.

godtabh

Terrontress wrote:

Anyone who has driven regularly on the roads of both Belfast and Dublin must realise that the traffic lights in Belfast are vastly superior to those in Dublin.

Why are the vastly superior? Is it because they have a fraction of the total volume of traffic Dublin has?

Even for things so simple as traffic light controlled roundabouts, for the few there are, in Belfast have the traffic lights turned off at quiet times.

There is nothing simple about signal controlled roundabouts. If they need lights it doesnt work as a roundabout and should be a signal controlled junction but its cheaper to retro fit.

Also, there are so few signal controlled crossroads in Dublin that have a simple red amber green configuration. They all have filter lights and extremely short sequences. A case in point is the Ranelagh triangle junction. Surely that is a simple junction with a ridiculously complicated setup.

Again there is nothign simple about them. These lights are based on supply and demand. Lights operate best when there is concentrated flow going through them. As the phase gets longer the concentration of cars gets lower hence the effiency gets lower. In order to allow effieceny else where filter phases are incorptoated.

Finally the road markings and signage in Belfast are so much easier than in Dublin. It seems to be easier to get into the right lane.

Singnage is crap here. Its been ignored for a long time. It is getting better though

Terrontress

I suppose when I say vastly superior I mean that:

• In the middle of the night they know that a car is there and change the lights to let you go instead of waiting for several minutes at an empty junction
• The junctions seem much simpler. Two roads crossing each other have no complicated filter arrangements.
• Traffic lights which seem to stay green for sufficient time to let a reasonable amount of traffic through.
• Pedestrian crossings with only two colours and sufficient time to cross, and no more.

I am by no means a traffic light expert, just a user and when I am ever in the North, I know it is so much easier to use than what we have down here.

Surely the best model for a simple junction is when one way is going, that direction is green, the other is red. When pedestrians want to cross, put the whole thing to red, let the pedestrians cross and then go green again.

There are so many traffic signals in Dublin where there are filter lights coming on to let traffic through in one direction only and I can't for the life of me figure out why others are not allowed to pass as well.

Finally, the lights in Dublin look shoddy compared to those in the North. The lights in the North are all the same size and shape with a solid white light around them.

markpb

Terrontress wrote:

In the middle of the night they know that a car is there and change the lights to let you go instead of waiting for several minutes at an empty junction

Totally agree with this one. Very few junctions that I'm aware of use sensors at night, they all revert to timers. Beaumont Road / Collins Avenue is the worst I've seen - it has a cycle time of about five minutes and doesn't use sensors at night. It's daft.

The junctions seem much simpler. Two roads crossing each other have no complicated filter arrangements.

I'm going to hazard a guess that the reason our junctions have so many filter sequences is to deal with the sheer volume of traffic. Belfast is much smaller, quieter city than Dublin so they can treat things much simpler. Filters are a simple way of combining multiple sequences such as pedestrians on two arms and cars on the other two, rather than wasting capacity.

I've actually spotted plenty of locations where more filter lights would make things move along faster. Typically these are where you can't turn left because there's a green pedestrian crossing but because there's no filter, the traffic can't go straight on either.

Traffic lights which seem to stay green for sufficient time to let a reasonable amount of traffic through.

I found the opposite, in Dublin pedestrian lights stay green for a silly amount of time meaning they can't go green very often without disrupting traffic. In Belfast they go green for a shorter time so they can go green more often - it's a better balance.

I think, especially on the busier city centre streets, we should be moving towards pedestrian lights that are green for just two seconds and amber long enough to cross. The build-up of pedestrians can cross, traffic can move and you can alternate between the two quite quickly so pedestrians aren't left waiting for ages between cycles.

Finally, the lights in Dublin look shoddy compared to those in the North. The lights in the North are all the same size and shape with a solid white light around them.

A lot of the lights in Dublin are quite old but they're in the process of replacing them. Some in Clontarf / Fairview have been replaced with ones similar to the ones around O'Connell st. It's a big job though.

Victor

Terrontress wrote:

There are so many traffic signals in Dublin where there are filter lights coming on to let traffic through in one direction only and I can't for the life of me figure out why others are not allowed to pass as well.

Can you give examples?


lol @ pic

RadioCity

There are so many traffic signals in Dublin where there are filter lights coming on to let traffic through in one direction only and I can't for the life of me figure out why others are not allowed to pass as well.

Dorset Street turning left onto Belvedere Road
At Harts Corner turning left onto Whitworth Road.

In both these cases the "ahead" filter light comes on and the red light stays on. Is this what is being referred to?

In the case of Hart's Corner, there are 2 lanes, the left to go straight ahead and left, the right to go straight ahead. The straight ahead filter comes on and traffic waiting to turn left holds back the traffic going straight on. Its one of those things you learn in Dublin. Never use the left lane unless absolutely necessary.

What I like about Belfast is that every filter is used to its best. You never sit at a junction wondering "why are those lights red? when its safe to go. At the junction of Beresford Place and Talbot Memorial Bridge, traffic waiting to turn left onto North Wall Quay has to wait while traffic turning left from North Wall Quay onto the bridge is on green, for what reason ? None. The pedestrian sequence has already fininshed and both lights on green would not have any conflicting traffic movements.

Regarding the traffic lights at roundabouts in Belfast. Theres are few junctions alright with Part time lights and they generally work well. The N2/M50 interchange could easily be part time as those lights cause more congestion than alleviate it at off peak times. And the airport/M1 junction would work better without lights altogether.

A Dub in Glasgo

RadioCity wrote:

Dorset Street turning left onto Belvedere Road
At Harts Corner turning left onto Whitworth Road.

In both these cases the "ahead" filter light comes on and the red light stays on. Is this what is being referred to?

In the case of Hart's Corner, there are 2 lanes, the left to go straight ahead and left, the right to go straight ahead. The straight ahead filter comes on and traffic waiting to turn left holds back the traffic going straight on. Its one of those things you learn in Dublin. Never use the left lane unless absolutely necessary.

I think the lights on the Phibsboro Road/North Circular Road are like that as well

I found the signs coming out of the port in Belfast particularly poor if you want to head to Dublin. It is almost as if there are no directions to the biggest city in Ireland

dowlingm

Dub in Glasgow - you should well know that "there's NO goin' dawin the Dubblin Rowd". This is why traffic lights are quite unnecessary.

Terrontress

I can't remember the signs but do remember that the motorway started right outside Belfast Port to start in the direction of Dublin.
Btw, looking at the title of this thread, I am not saying Belfast is more civilised than Dublin. Just that driving there is easier than here.

ucdperson

In the case of Hart's Corner, there are 2 lanes, the left to go straight ahead and left, the right to go straight ahead. The straight ahead filter comes on and traffic waiting to turn left holds back the traffic going straight on.

this allows pedestrians cross, traffic going straight ahead can proceed, that going left waits until the pedestrian cycle is completed.

this increases the capacity of the junction as otherwise the straight ahead traffic would also have to wait for the pedestrians to cross. Hardly rocket science.

RadioCity

Hardly rocket science

I KNOW its not. I remember the junctions before the new type lights were installed. But last week I was showing somebody into Dublin and the lights look confusing as they had never seen anything like it.
Add to that a lot of motorists just turn left anyway on the "ahead" filter. And that is plainly down to either motorists not paying attention or poor junction layout.

ucdperson

Agreed, the actual traffic lights are sometimes badly positioned, in this type of junction they should use continental style red arrows, have a red, amber, green left arrow on the left hand side of traffic light head and the same for straight ahead on the right side of the traffic light.


However the lights are not so badly positioned that they are unclear, a significant proportion of motorists couldn't give a damn about pedestrians.

They should put a camera here and ticket people who turn left when there is no green arrow.

mikemac

RadioCity wrote:

Add to that a lot of motorists just turn left anyway on the "ahead" filter. And that is plainly down to either motorists not paying attention or poor junction layout.

This drives me crazy :mad:

Plenty of times I am queing to turn left or right and soon as the "ahead" filter light is on, people start beeping to pressure you to drive while pedestrians are using the crossing.
Or if you are walking across a juntion and someone breaks a filter light, they beep at you as if you've done something wrong despite the "green man" being on

Not sure if it's blatant ignorance or people not understanding filter lights. Most likely 50/50.

Wrong forum, time to start a rant in Motors

HonalD

This debate is really hotting up....who would have thought that the humble red-amber-green traffic light would cause so much heart ache for all concerned....

I'm not here to defend anyone BUT a few points to remember: Traffic Signal Designers are constrained by having to allow for all modes of traffic i.e. pedestrian priority or bus priority, cycle priority or even car priority! It is frustrating that signals appear complicated and a general rule for successful Traffic Signal Design is to keep it simple. Alas, not many designers do this and try to be too clever. It may sound obvious but there are only 60 secs in every minute and the longer one approach gets a green, the others suffer....

Not sure that signals in Belfast are better than here....The point about consistency is a good one. The UK have a very strict policy with regard to what you can and cannot do...there is no such thing as a "flashing amber left turn arrow" in the UK. Here, there is more flexibility and I feel that this has been abused to the detrement of the general public. Any comments? :cool:

A Dub in Glasgo

HonalD - Agree about the abusing of the flexibility

I was nearly run over crossing the NCR at Phibsboro by some muppet who took the green ahead light as a left turn light. The idiot had the cheek to shout at me to get off the road.

AndrewMc

I find it irritating that there might be a green left-turn arrow (for example) that goes amber, then red, and immediately the green light for all directions turns on. What's the point of that? Can it not just go straight from green-arrow+red-light to green-light?

HonalD

AndrewMc - there are 2 safety timings at traffic signals in general, the amber time (prepare to stop) and the all-red time (when all signals are showing red). The green for other approaches should not come on immediately as there should be a safety delay of 1-2 seconds in general. This compensates for Irish drivers continuously using the amber as a "put the foot down and keep going" time and then breaking the red lights.

Does this make sense?

HonalD

HonalD wrote:

Does this make sense?

Not really.. it implies that left turning traffic must stop for two seconds, while the lights "work to rule"

I find the Lights in the UK much easier to follow.

[rant] as for "brain dead" timings, well there are a few in Tallaght that drive me mad. Why go through the effort of installing mag-loop sensors in the road and then not use them!! :mad:

[/rant]

HonalD

Sorry dolanbaker, the "flashing amber" left turn arrow flashes continuously until a pedestrian presses the button and then the sequence for traffic is amber-red-flashing amber again!

All drivers need to do is check at the "flashing amber" left turn signal that no pedestrians want to cross, proceed with caution and obey any further signs and lines in place.

I think it would be unfair to single out any one area for bad timings - it is down to the level of maintenance and finance available whether the loops are repaired and/or working efficiently!:)