The Persecuted Church

robindch

PDN wrote:

I think it is wrong to assume that a news website is less (or indeed more) accurate just because it is run by Christians.

The issue is with what point of view the site owners wish to convey. I view with considerable skepticism, news as reported by any pressure group which seeks political (or memetic) power, whether it's the lunatics at the UK's Christian Voice, the news sites that Brian used to back up his claim, or indeed, the news feeds of many other religious and non-religious pressure groups.

The fact that some website has a point of view to sell should suggest the possibility of bias to you and I'm surprised that you seem to be unaware of this.

PDN wrote:

I think it is much more beneficial to the region to promote a religion that teaches people to love their enemies rather than to burn them.

The bible and the quran have some good stuff and some bad stuff. What individuals decide is most important is an individual choice in islam just as it is in christianity. Both sides are told and most believe that they're on god's side, so it's hardly surprising that violence results when one side meets the other.

If neither religion had successfully proselytized in Nigeria, then there'd be no inter-religious violence. Wouldn't you agree?

PDN

robindch wrote: »

The fact that some website has a point of view to sell should suggest the possibility of bias to you and I'm surprised that you seem to be unaware of this.

I am aware of the possibility of bias in any news source.

If neither religion had successfully proselytized in Nigeria, then there'd be no inter-religious violence. Wouldn't you agree?

No, I don't agree. There was inter-religious violence in Nigeria long before the introduction of Christianity or Islam. Different tribes have been killing each other over their tribal gods for centuries. In fact the volume of conflict has decreased.

condra

As an atheist, I just want to say that I find it a bit tastless that some people are hijacking this paticular thread.

The closest thing to a religion which I have, apart from my atheism, is great respect for the concept of human rights, including religious tolerence.

It is horriffic to hear of peopl being persecuted simply for being Christian.

robindch

PDN wrote:

I am aware of the possibility of bias in any news source.

I've no doubt at all that you are. Nonetheless, you seem continually to be missing the point that hairyheretic and myself have been making: that news sites which report from only one point of view have an increased tendency to bias, whether it's a pro-gay (or anti-gay) websites or websites dedicated to propagating stories about the persecution of christians.

The fact that this story seemed to appear largely on pro-christian websites only should make one wary of the even-handedness of the report, rather than making one reach for the post button and the persecuted-church thread!

PDN wrote:

There was inter-religious violence in Nigeria long before the introduction of Christianity or Islam. Different tribes have been killing each other over their tribal gods for centuries.

The banal "well it would have happened anyway" response doesn't become you -- you should be able to do better than that! All the more so since your claim implies that the relevant sociological, psychological and anthropological research is wrong. It's reasonably well-attested that inter-communal violence is less common amongst societies with pre-ecclesiastical religions, than in societies with ecclesiastical religions such as christianity and islam.

Can you please give some evidence to back up your claim that there was more religiously-derived violence in Nigeria before the big two religions got there?

PDN

robindch wrote: »

I've no doubt at all that you are. Nonetheless, you seem continually to be missing the point that hairyheretic and myself have been making: that news sites which report from only one point of view have an increased tendency to bias, whether it's a pro-gay (or anti-gay) websites or websites dedicated to propagating stories about the persecution of christians.

The problem, of course, is that advocacy news sites exist because mainstream media frequently ignore certain groups and situations.

The fact that this story seemed to appear largely on pro-christian websites only should make one wary of the even-handedness of the report, rather than making one reach for the post button and the persecuted-church thread!

The persecuted church thread exists for the purpose of encouraging Christians to pray for specific situations involving persecution. It is based on the premise that we believe our prayers can affect current situations. If we wait until long after the event when enough media sites have reported the event to satisfy the most sceptical atheist, then there would be little point in asking Christians to pray since the damage has already been done.

If someone has real evidence that a false report has appeared on this thread then I, more than anyone, would want that brought to our attention. I have no desire to spend my time praying about a non-existent scenario. Indeed I frequently use Snopes to rebuke Christians who forward me stupid emails about non-existent situations. But for someone to come on here and basically say, "Maybe this didn't happen because I did a quick Google and couldn't find any reports other than those from Christian sites" is, in my opinion, out of order.

wolfsbane

PDN wrote: »

The problem, of course, is that advocacy news sites exist because mainstream media frequently ignore certain groups and situations.


The persecuted church thread exists for the purpose of encouraging Christians to pray for specific situations involving persecution. It is based on the premise that we believe our prayers can affect current situations. If we wait until long after the event when enough media sites have reported the event to satisfy the most sceptical atheist, then there would be little point in asking Christians to pray since the damage has already been done.

If someone has real evidence that a false report has appeared on this thread then I, more than anyone, would want that brought to our attention. I have no desire to spend my time praying about a non-existent scenario. Indeed I frequently use Snopes to rebuke Christians who forward me stupid emails about non-existent situations. But for someone to come on here and basically say, "Maybe this didn't happen because I did a quick Google and couldn't find any reports other than those from Christian sites" is, in my opinion, out of order.

Sorry I haven't time to enter the exchange, but I though you all might like to see this video from a church in Israel. The persecutors get to speak for themselves:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6985238613573695293

JimiTime

wolfsbane wrote: »

Sorry I haven't time to enter the exchange, but I though you all might like to see this video from a church in Israel. The persecutors get to speak for themselves:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6985238613573695293

'they will hate you because of me'. Says it all really. Have to say, it raised a tear. I sincerely hope they stay mild tempered in Yeshua, they seem exemplary. May they find solace in his strength. Amen. I don't suppose anyone knows if there are brranches outside of Israel? Namely here in ireland?

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

'they will hate you because of me'. Says it all really. Have to say, it raised a tear. I sincerely hope they stay mild tempered in Yeshua, they seem exemplary. May they find solace in his strength. Amen. I don't suppose anyone knows if there are brranches outside of Israel? Namely here in ireland?

There is a Messianic congregation that meets twice monthly in, of all places, Donaghadee, County Down.

PDN

I received the following email from friends in Turkey. This relates to the 3 Turkish Christians who were slaughtered earlier this year. I use the word 'slaughtered' deliberately. Most press reports in Ireland simply mentioned that their throats were cut, but I spoke with the family of one of the victims and in reality they were tortured for over 3 hours. They were cut open and their intestines were chopped up in front of their own eyes.
This incident created a lot of fear among Christians in Turkey, with many Muslims who wished to become Christians expressing fear that similar things might happen to them. The Christians are hoping that the prosecution will send a clear message that the State will not allow the perpetrators of such atrocities to get off lightly.

Dear Friends,

Tomorrow, 23 November, the trial regarding the murder of our three brothers in Malatya begins in that city. Because of the potential unrest aroused by the nature of this trial there will be certain security risks. Our pastor will not be present at the advice of his lawyers.

Nineteen lawyers will prosecute our case; they have already acted as prosecuting lawyers in the Hrank Dink and Father Santoro murder cases. Although none of them is a professing Christian, they believe this case is a crucial one for the sake of human rights in Turkey. While the State prosectutor wants to try the defendents as common criminals, our lawyers will try to press for the recognition of the concept of hate-crime, which could have important consequences.

The lawyers are already receiving death threats. Please pray for their protection, as well as for divine insight into the case.

Aso pray for the widows, who will eventually be asked to make statments on oath.

And for the their children, and the believers who continue to meet and worship, who will likely feel the pressure from the public.

And for the press conference which will follow at the end of the day.

JimiTime

^^ My word:(

PDN

A report from the BBC on the Turkish case: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7108607.stm

bogwalrus

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Possible for HIM maybe. Not in every single case.

In fact the so-called gay-recovery programes (almost all religiously based) have a less thean 1% sucess rate by scientific standards which is even lower than you should expect by accident.

Homosexuality is a condition of biological, mental and emotional programming, exactly the same as hetero or bi-sexuality. It is not something that can be switched on or off like a light, it is an aspect of personality like sense of humour.

There is a south park episode where butters is sent to a Christian clinic (or something like that) because his father thinks he is gay and "confused". They manage to convince butters that his confusion is evil and try to make him less confused which leads to more confusion and suicide. (1% success rate, 99% suicide rate) . Its a very good and well thought out episode=) Season 11 episode 2........have a watch!!

bogwalrus

And on a more related point to the thread:

I think that if the government of Indonesia was secular there would be none of this nonsense. Am i to believe that the Islamic laws or beliefs influence the laws of the nation?? or is it the men in charge who are so fundamentalist that they create a law to satisfy what they believe to be right but not what their religion believes to be right. What i am trying to say is whether or not it is Islam that is at fault or just a few fundamentalist rulers. I can imagine there are plenty of islams in Indonesia that do not want this going on in there nation.

PDN

House Church Christmas Services Raided Throughout Multiple Provinces
China Aid Association,Inc.

Prominent House Church Leader Detained During Worship Service

December 19, 2007

Henan Province- On December 16, 2007, Less than two weeks before Christmas, China Aid has learned that, Pastor Liang Qi Zhen, Vice President of the Chinese House Church Alliance, was detained by PSB officials in Er Qi District. After dispersing Liang’s congregation, police officials took him by force and transported him to an undisclosed location where he was tortured for several hours. Liang’s ears and right hand were injured during the lengthy assault. After being released, Liang was able to identify the one who tortured him as Er Qi Security Bureau policeman, Li Seng. No legal procedure was established during the entire incident. PSB officials continue to threaten the church members to abstain from gathering.

Jiangsu Province- A house church in Chang Zhou City was attacked by police officials in December during a Christmas celebration. The church, led by Pastor Bu Ge Qiao, was in the midst of a Christmas service when police raided the gathering and detained four female members. During the apprehension police assaulted one of the members until she became unconscious. She was later taken to the hospital. Her condition remains unknown.

Yunan Province- On December 5, 2007, policemen and members of the Bureau of Ethnic and Religious Affairs raided a house church meeting in Kunming, and detained several members including, Ms. Piao Guihua, the renter of the property. After searching the building, police seized several hundred Christian books and note-pads, and then burned them outside the residence. Police also destroyed the identification cards of three of the church members. After several hours of interrogation, the members were released and told to remove all property from the residence by 10am. The landlord of the building was also instructed to cease rental agreements with Ms. Piao. The same house church has been raided on several occasions beginning in December of 2004, September 2007, November 3, 2007, and November 29 2007. In each instance, police officials have confiscated the offering donations along with Bibles and other Christian literature. In every raid, police officials have failed to issue legal documentation of the property taken.

Henan Province- On Tuesday, December 4, policeman in Lu Yi district, Henan Province, assailed a local house church prayer meeting. Five church members were detained and taken to the local police station for interrogation. Their names are:
Shao Guang Rong (the pastor of the church), his wife Zhang Ji Zhi, Yan Qi Ying, Cui LianZhi and Wang Xiao Jian.
The members were released on bail after 5 days detention, but not before being forced to pay an 800 Yuan fee for food consumed during their incarceration. According to several house church members, at the same time their leaders were taken by the police, dozens of believers in another town of the same district were also detained. No word concerning their release has been heard.

House church members, labeled by police officials as “cultists”, are often sentenced to labor camps when they are detained by police. The members detained in Henan Province are likely to face one year imprisonment in such a labor camp.

“To arbitrarily arrest peaceful Christians for celebrating Christmas, shows how much religious freedom Chinese people have,” said Bob Fu, President of China Aid Association. “The international community should be concerned for the increasing religious persecution in China in recent months especially in light of the Beijing Olympics just a few months away.”

In spite of increasing persecution, house church members remain adamant and vocal about celebrating the Christmas season. Services continue to be held celebrating the birth of Christ, as members gather to sing songs and worship despite fears of arrest and imprisonment.

Issued by CAA on December 19, 2007

wes

bogwalrus wrote: »

And on a more related point to the thread:

I think that if the government of Indonesia was secular there would be none of this nonsense. Am i to believe that the Islamic laws or beliefs influence the laws of the nation?? or is it the men in charge who are so fundamentalist that they create a law to satisfy what they believe to be right but not what their religion believes to be right. What i am trying to say is whether or not it is Islam that is at fault or just a few fundamentalist rulers. I can imagine there are plenty of islams in Indonesia that do not want this going on in there nation.

Indonesia is a Republic, not an Islamic state, nor an Islamic republic.

Here are some links to read more about Indonesia:
CIA Factbook Entry on Indonesia

Indonesia Wikipedia Entry

Bottle_of_Smoke

INDONESIA: 40 CHRISTIANS DETAINED FOR 'INSULTING ISLAM'

A group of Indonesian Christians face up to five years in jail if they are found guilty of ‘insulting Islam’.

More than 40 Christians were detained in April after a video showing them standing around a copy of the Koran and praying for Muslims ‘deceived’ by it was leaked to Islamic groups. They then circulated it to the media

I don't think they deserve time in prison but what these Christians did in the most populous Muslim-majority country in the world is just as stupid as trying to pet a tiger in a zoo.

Were they looking for a reaction? Doesn't seem neccesary to have a copy of the Koran while they were "praying" for the deceived Muslims. Sounds more like something you'd expect from a coven.

Those forced conversions are pretty horrendous sounding though. That's something that should be much more exposed in the media

Schuhart

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Were they looking for a reaction?

I'd expect they were, but I'd also feel that provoking a reaction in this situation is right.

I see no reason why publically stating a belief that the Quran is not divine word should involve a jail sentence. For the sake of comparison, as I understand it, the concept of blasphemy in Irish law never included someone publically stating their honest belief that the Bible was just a book.

Tbh, I'm actually not sure that I would stick my neck out in similar circumstances. I enjoy freedom as a free rider because people like that take a risk.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Schuhart wrote: »

I'd expect they were, but I'd also feel that provoking a reaction in this situation is right.

I see no reason why publically stating a belief that the Quran is not divine word should involve a jail sentence. For the sake of comparison, as I understand it, the concept of blasphemy in Irish law never included someone publically stating their honest belief that the Bible was just a book.

Tbh, I'm actually not sure that I would stick my neck out in similar circumstances. I enjoy freedom as a free rider because people like that take a risk.

Still nonsensical to have the Koran there, whilst pretending they actually care about Muslims. I'm not a Muslim or even religious but what they did was downright offensive. If they had been killed by extremists they'd be definite Darwin award nominees.

PDN

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Still nonsensical to have the Koran there, whilst pretending they actually care about Muslims. I'm not a Muslim or even religious but what they did was downright offensive. If they had been killed by extremists they'd be definite Darwin award nominees.

It is neither nonsensical nor is there any reason to suppose that they were pretending anything.

Christian minorities in Muslim countries suffer discrimination and ridicule on a daily basis. They can view this in one of two ways:
a) Those who oppress them (Muslims) are evil. If they take this view then there is a huge risk they will want revenge.
b) Those who oppress them are being controlled and dominated by a malignant force. This view, while offensive to some in that it sees Islam and the Quran as malignant, enables them to feel pity rather than hate for their persecutors.

Christians who are persecuted regularly pray for their oppressors to be set free from their hatred. I have observed Christians in China who prayed around a copy of Chairman Mao's Little Red Book and sincerely prayed for God to deliver their their tormentors from the influence of Communism. You may not agree with them - but there is no need to accuse them of pretence or hypocrisy. They were perfectly sincere.

As for being stupid - we could say the same about the guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianamen Square, about dissidents in Soviet Russia, about those who were burned as heretics by the Inquisition, or indeed about Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela. I think that those who take a stand against bigotry and oppression should be admired, not mocked.

Schuhart

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Still nonsensical to have the Koran there, whilst pretending they actually care about Muslims.

Hardly nonsensical. If their intention was to provoke a response, it made perfect sense.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'm not a Muslim or even religious but what they did was downright offensive.

I don't agree that, in principle, having a Quran in the middle of the group was offensive. If they burnt or defaced one, then it would be. But even then its hardly a jailing offence.

I've a vague memory of seeing film of Ian Paisley giving a speech in the Oxford Union where he held up a communion wafer and poured scorn on the idea of the Eucharist saying 'Roman Catholics believe this wafer becomes the body, blood, hair and bone of Jesus Christ when blessed by a bachelor priest'. Was he offensive? I don't doubt. Should he have served time for it? Hardly. If that's what he thinks, he should say it.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If they had been killed by extremists they'd be definite Darwin award nominees.

If you truly believe that opponents and victims of violent extremists should be given a Darwin award, you are sorely in need of a reality check.

The hint is the name of the award.

Bottle_of_Smoke

PDN wrote: »

It is neither nonsensical nor is there any reason to suppose that they were pretending anything.

Christian minorities in Muslim countries suffer discrimination and ridicule on a daily basis. They can view this in one of two ways:
a) Those who oppress them (Muslims) are evil. If they take this view then there is a huge risk they will want revenge.
b) Those who oppress them are being controlled and dominated by a malignant force. This view, while offensive to some in that it sees Islam and the Quran as malignant, enables them to feel pity rather than hate for their persecutors.

There's also option C. They could see their oppressors as people who are defensive about their heritage & beliefs.

Hence people chanting around their sacred book is going to cause trouble rather than improve the situation for Christians. You catch more bees with honey than vinegar.

Christians who are persecuted regularly pray for their oppressors to be set free from their hatred. I have observed Christians in China who prayed around a copy of Chairman Mao's Little Red Book and sincerely prayed for God to deliver their their tormentors from the influence of Communism. You may not agree with them - but there is no need to accuse them of pretence or hypocrisy. They were perfectly sincere.

I can't see how they wouldn't have realised how antagonistic it would be to Muslims. Really seems to me that by having the Koran present there was an element of "we know we're better than you"

As for being stupid - we could say the same about the guy who stood in front of the tank in Tianamen Square, about dissidents in Soviet Russia, about those who were burned as heretics by the Inquisition, or indeed about Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela. I think that those who take a stand against bigotry and oppression should be admired, not mocked.

I don't think any of these people are comparable to the Indonesian Christians. They seem to be mocking rather than standing up against Muslims.

I agree the treatment of Christians in Indonesia by certain Muslims is abhorrant. Though it's not the fault of Islam, it's the fault of radical Indonesians. I read about an interfaith festival/march that was organised for Christians & Muslims. Everything was going well until a bunch of fundies showed up with Machetes & stones.

So carry on like videoing a prayer session with the Koran is just going to piss off moderates & make things a lot worse for Christianity there.

Schuart wrote:

I don't agree that, in principle, having a Quran in the middle of the group was offensive. If they burnt or defaced one, then it would be. But even then its hardly a jailing offence.

Do you know anything about Muslims? They believe the Koran is the word of their God through their holiest prophet. Christians praying that God takes away an evil(the koran) is of course going to be offensive to them

I've a vague memory of seeing film of Ian Paisley giving a speech in the Oxford Union where he held up a communion wafer and poured scorn on the idea of the Eucharist saying 'Roman Catholics believe this wafer becomes the body, blood, hair and bone of Jesus Christ when blessed by a bachelor priest'. Was he offensive? I don't doubt. Should he have served time for it? Hardly. If that's what he thinks, he should say it.

I don't know who you're arguing with but you quoted me. I said in the first line of my first post in this thread that I don't think they deserve jail.

If you truly believe that opponents and victims of violent extremists should be given a Darwin award, you are sorely in need of a reality check.

The hint is the name of the award.

Hey! don't twist my words like that! Lets say I walk into a Prod pub in South Belfast & start talking about how I wish the evils of Protestantism would go away so their people could live in peace with Catholics. A former UVF fighter takes exception to my beliefs & beats me to death. I really don't think I can complain if I recieve the award.

Schuhart

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Do you know anything about Muslims?

I know a little about Islam, which is what I think you mean.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

They believe the Koran is the word of their God through their holiest prophet. Christians praying that God takes away an evil(the koran) is of course going to be offensive to them

And that Quran derides the notion that god had a son. In Sura 19:88 and 89 the idea that god begot a son is described as (depending on the translation) being ‘a thing most monstrous’, ‘a disastrous thing’ or ‘an abominable assertion’. The Quran also derides the notion of a triune god. So it would seem like the practice of one faith inevitably involves offence for the other – if people want to take offence at the fact that others hold a different view.

If all these Christians did is publically display the fact that they feel a holy book that derides their beliefs is false, and if the Indonesian legal system cannot handle that, I think its pretty clear that the legal system (and anyone who would defend it) is being unreasonable.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I said in the first line of my first post in this thread that I don't think they deserve jail.

So why blame them rather than their oppressors?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Hey! don't twist my words like that!

I’m not twisting them, I’m following where your statement leads. If you don’t like the destination, maybe you need to reconsider what you are saying.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Lets say I walk into a Prod pub in South Belfast & start talking about how I wish the evils of Protestantism would go away so their people could live in peace with Catholics. A former UVF fighter takes exception to my beliefs & beats me to death. I really don't think I can complain if I receive the award.

Interesting logic. Incidently, does this mean that you feel the Indonesian legal system can only be expected to deliver the same kind of justice as a UVF thug?

I think we’ve already established that you feel UVF thugs and their equivalent in other cultures should be left undisturbed, as they are just too scary and we’re probably better off accepting that natural selection will favour their propagation ahead of us. I just want to establish the exact extent to which you feel we should capitulate when intimidated.

PDN

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Hey! don't twist my words like that! Lets say I walk into a Prod pub in South Belfast & start talking about how I wish the evils of Protestantism would go away so their people could live in peace with Catholics. A former UVF fighter takes exception to my beliefs & beats me to death. I really don't think I can complain if I recieve the award.

A better analogy would be if you said such things in a Catholic Church in South Belfast. Say that the UVF guy beat a Catholic to death because he made critical statements about loyalists while in a Catholic Church. Do you think the dead Catholic merits a Darwin award?

Your analogy would appear to suggest that you think anyone in a Muslim country should keep quiet and toe the line of the majority - even when in their own church services.

philologos

One must co-operate with the majority while not denying their faith either. Paul tells us that we must follow the laws of State. But we also must not be afraid in being followers of Christ.

AckwelFoley

Sorry for the offtopic post, but id just like to comment on the maturity level of the discussion here. Its a testiment to perhaps the staff and members this can take place without ithe topic being closed or trolled like isee in other large forums.

Keep up the good work

As for the topic itself,i cannot objectively comment about catholic church, icannot forgive them for theircrimes against Irish Children during their grip on this nation, sotherefore mysympathy is somewhat lacking in this area.

Howevr i do find that it seemstobe more acceptable for jokes to be made about christians while jokes off Islam are reacted to with great hostility. I do commend boards.ie for leaving open a thread called "mohammed lol" in the jokes forum, because the "Jesus lol" thread was already there, so all things been equal the mohammed thread was left there, in doing so allowing people to joke about both faiths if desired. I think this equality is what i commend, because equality in areas of respect must be shared on the oppsite end too.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Schuhart wrote: »

I know a little about Islam, which is what I think you mean.

I actually did mean Muslims, in the context I don't really see why there's a difference.

And that Quran derides the notion that god had a son. In Sura 19:88 and 89 the idea that god begot a son is described as (depending on the translation) being ‘a thing most monstrous’, ‘a disastrous thing’ or ‘an abominable assertion’. The Quran also derides the notion of a triune god. So it would seem like the practice of one faith inevitably involves offence for the other – if people want to take offence at the fact that others hold a different view.

Fine, if there was a country that was similar to Indonesia but strictly Christian & Muslim minority(which I don't think there is) I'd be saying the same thing if a bunch of Muslims did the same thing with the Gospels.

If all these Christians did is publically display the fact that they feel a holy book that derides their beliefs is false, and if the Indonesian legal system cannot handle that, I think its pretty clear that the legal system (and anyone who would defend it) is being unreasonable.So why blame them rather than their oppressors?I’m not twisting them, I’m following where your statement leads. If you don’t like the destination, maybe you need to reconsider what you are saying. Interesting logic.

Stop inferring things you want to infer. You really do that a lot. You're only following where you think my statement leads, which PDN for example isn't doing at all.
I'm not blaming them, I'm saying what they did was silly. About as logical as trying to pet a tiger in a zoo. With no real net benefit. Of course I agree the Indonesian legal system is unreasonable, ridiculous may I add.

Incidently, does this mean that you feel the Indonesian legal system can only be expected to deliver the same kind of justice as a UVF thug?

No. I was comparing the UVF thug to an Islamic radical not a the Indonesian government.

I think we’ve already established that you feel UVF thugs and their equivalent in other cultures should be left undisturbed, as they are just too scary and we’re probably better off accepting that natural selection will favour their propagation ahead of us. I just want to establish the exact extent to which you feel we should capitulate when intimidated.

No, I think you've already established that! I doubt there's many who agree. I'm not going to even dignify this unrivalled bullsh*t with a response.

PDN wrote:

A better analogy would be if you said such things in a Catholic Church in South Belfast. Say that the UVF guy beat a Catholic to death because he made critical statements about loyalists while in a Catholic Church. Do you think the dead Catholic merits a Darwin award?

Your analogy would appear to suggest that you think anyone in a Muslim country should keep quiet and toe the line of the majority - even when in their own church services.

Fair enough it was a somewhat clumsy analogy, however I don't think that's a suitable one either, seeing as the gulf between Catholics & Protestants in the North is so much smaller that that if Muslims & Christians in Indonesia. Ie I think criticising loyalists in Belfast may achieve something whereas what they did in Indonesia won't. They weren't criticising as such, they were mocking the faith of ordinary decent Muslims whilst praying for their opressors.

jakkass wrote:

One must co-operate with the majority while not denying their faith either. Paul tells us that we must follow the laws of State. But we also must not be afraid in being followers of Christ.

That's fine but they're not facing jail for denying their faith. They were mocking the vast majority of Muslims who don't cause them any trouble. While I don't agree this warrants incarceration I think it was silly.

If I wanted to set up a conference on how science provides evidence against claims in the Koran I'd make sure I had a plane on stand-by.

Schuhart

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I actually did mean Muslims, in the context I don't really see why there's a difference.

Can I suggest this statement doesn't make sense. I take it what you mean is 'in this context I see the terms Islam and Muslims as interchangeable', even if that seems to be inconsistent with your statement 'I actually did mean Muslims'.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

if there was a country that was similar to Indonesia but strictly Christian & Muslim minority(which I don't think there is) I'd be saying the same thing if a bunch of Muslims did the same thing with the Gospels.

So we have to create a hypothetical Christian country that suppresses Islam just to make it look like you're making some kind of sense? Can I suggest a shorter line, that doesn't involve parting company with reality, is just for you to reconsider what you are saying.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Stop inferring things you want to infer. You really do that a lot. You're only following where you think my statement leads, which PDN for example isn't doing at all.

I take it PDN will say whatever PDN wants to say. For my part, what I'm 'inferring' is what follows from what you are saying. The only thing that would make what I'm saying invalid would be for you to change your position.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'm not blaming them, I'm saying what they did was silly. About as logical as trying to pet a tiger in a zoo. With no real net benefit. Of course I agree the Indonesian legal system is unreasonable, ridiculous may I add.

Well if you now see the Indonesian legal system is unreasonable on this point, can you not see that this is a real net benefit as the protest has caused knowledge of the issue to spread. Without their protest and the consequent post here I personally would not have had any particular awareness of a problem.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No, I think you've already established that! I doubt there's many who agree. I'm not going to even dignify this unrivalled bullsh*t with a response.

Except you just responded - inadequately. And you most certainly have said that you see people who adopt principled positions that make them a potential target for extremists to be silly.

PDN

I received the following email today from a friend of mine, Kingsley Lazarus, a Pastor in India. Kingsley organises teams of evangelists that minister in hostile areas of India. He also runs orphanages. Often the desperately poor come to church and leave babies under the seats afterwards, knowing that the care of an orphanage represents the only hope for their children's survival. My wife and I sponsor a child in one of the orphanages. I have known Pastor Kingsley for many years and know him to be a man of absolute truthfulness and integrity.

Dear Pastor --- and Sister

---

Greetings to you in the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ,

I am sending you an urgent Prayer Request and a call for a “Good Samaritans mission” in this Crucial situation in India in the State of "ORISSA" in the Kandhamal District as many of our brethren are being persecuted in different levels even to the extreme of being brutally murdered for the cause of the Kingdom of God.

This whole atrocious action started on the 24th of December when churches started to celebrate the Christmas eve and the attacks continued till the of 18th of January. A continuous brutal attack and series of churches being burnt, houses being burnt down, raping of innocent young girls, kidnapping and beating of men and women, blaming Pastors and arresting innocent ministers, and all ended with the Murder of four church elders and pastors.

Adding to the pain during the riot a group of fanatics forcibly ‘reconverted’ to Hinduism 12 Christians and their Pastor by Shaving their Heir and beating them and Later forced them to eat raw rice mixed with goat blood.

Adding to this pain a church has been changed into a Hindu cremation hall. As the fanatics were attacking a church on the 24th of December a Hindu old man had died naturally. To discrete the church and the Christians the fanatics brought the dead body and cremated right in front of the Pulpit and the ashes of the body remains till now.

Now lately last weekend we got a phone call from one of the missionaries of Sharing Hands stating that two of the Sharing Hands Churches was attacked and two minister and elders were missing in this incident.

So we rushed to the site and to our shock the two churches were totally destroyed and the pastors houses were burnt and one of the pastors daughter has been raped by a gang of four men and she is struggling for life in the near by medical camp with severe injuries, and the pastors were arrested for causing public nuisance which is a lie.

Nearly about 700 or more people were missing in the local village and we found that they were hiding in the near by mountains in fear of the fanatics attack and among them were small children and babies. As we came to know about it through secret news we rushed to the place and found them hiding in different parts of the mountain. In fear and hunger most of the women and children were hungry for about a week, the only surviving sources was the drinking water from the little stream on the hill and by licking the dews that were on the leaves of the trees and eating the roots, leaves and fruits from plants and trees.

As we saw them cry out all of us broke in tears as we saw their helpless situation. But by the Grace of God we gained favour in the site of some police officials as we approached them and they gave us and their people protection.

So we quickly we gathered food and we were able to serve them with immediate need of food, water and clothing’s and vessels and the people were so blessed to receive comfort in the midst of the calamity. Nearly 300 people including children and babies were fed well.

As we came back to the families of the pastors and missionaries our hearts were troubled and melted to see the little families with the pastor terribly wounded with his wife and children. They stand with no shelter as all their belongings and house were all destroyed and burnt in fire. We were unable to comfort them with words. Since one of the other missionaries daughter was brutally raped she was so scared of anyone and deeply, emotionally and mentally disturbed. But we couldn’t control her tears as she tangibly held one of our team members hand in fear and asked if she can be taken to Chennai to the Sharing Hands Faith House, So that she can be there for some time not seeing her family and friends. Especially she could not stand to see her father being brutally beaten and his shoulder and knees were fractured. Because for every child their father is a Hero but she saw her father almost die in the attack and also she saw her family was helpless as she was raped in their presence.

And when we started to minister in the local medical camp and found so many innocent children and mothers and men were admitted with cruel fire burns and bone fractures caused by the fanatics attack. We could do none but only pray for them and help them and assist them with food and clothes. Because so many of their belonging have all got lost and has been burnt in fire they stand homeless.

Prayer Points:

Please pray for the Salvation of those who have attacked the People of God for they do not know what they are doing.

Please pray for the Protection of all the Christians and all ministers of God involved in relief measures in this state of Orissa

Please Pray for those churches which were destroyed to be re-built and the shout of Praise and worship of our Living God to be heard in that land again

Please pray for the shelter of those Pastors and ministers to be re-built

Please pray for more medicines and first aid materials to reach the affected communities

Please pray that the violence against the people of God will stop

Please pray for the comfort and new life of those who were attacked in this riot

monosharp

jonny72 wrote: »

I think Islam is currently going through a phase that Christianity has largely passed through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity
http://www.godhatesfags.com/

You know, I never really experienced any of this kind of stuff before. Living as a Catholic in Ireland you don't get to see these problems.

I'm living in Korea at the moment and its very difficult to try and explain how completely insane some of the Christians are here. Ok perhaps insane isn't the right word but it really is bad.

e.g -> I don't speak the local lingo, yet at least once a month two korean christians will come knocking on my door and after a "do you speak korean", a "no" from me and a "sigh" from them, they will rant on anyways in Korean and hand me a weeks worth of toilet paper in various leaflet, booklet and magazine form.

When I look out from my window I can see 34 churches. No, not temples, not mosques, not all different kinds of religion, just Churches.

A lot of the very best Universities and schools here are Christian, guess what ? You can't get in unless your Christian. Funnily enough the Buddhist Uni's/schools don't do that.

Its such a shock to me. The Christians here are all intolerant of anything else, yet if you are a Christian your their best mate. Its the complete opposite with the Buddhists (the other main religion here). They are the definition of tolerance. I notice this a LOT with my students and its seriously disturbing.

I am a Christian, although on the verge of converting, and I have huge respect for Jesus and a lot of respect for various Christian people, priests etc I know. But one of the main reasons I cannot remain a Christian is because of people like this, and its not just here, we have them in Ireland, they're in Yankland, they're everywhere.

I've travelled a lot, I've met a lot of different religious people and the two most intolerant without a doubt in my mind are Christians and Muslims.

The Jews are bad, in that they believe everyone else has a one way ticket to hell and they are Gods chosen and a lot of them very firmly believe this. But at least they won't try and convert you or tell you your going to hell. You have to ask them. about it.

Just here recently on the TV, the newly elected president of South Korea gave a speech supporting a large group of korean Christians who are praying for the destruction of Buddhism in this country.

Christians persecuted :eek: ? Christianity is the worlds top dog and has being doing the vast majority of the persecuting for many many years.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

I received the following email today from a friend of mine, Kingsley Lazarus, a Pastor in India.

The Indian government is taking these reports seriously and has requested it Human Rights Commission to send a team to check them out -- see the announcement here. Hindu sources, of which there are many, give a predictably different account of events.

Out of interest PDN, when did evangelicals begin to operate in Orissa -- opening evangelical or missionary churches and that kind of thing?