The Persecuted Church

PDN

When we talk about persecution we tend to think of Christians being fed to the lions in Ancient Rome. However, persecution is very much a present reality. I thought it would be good to post some up to date reports so other Christians can pray.

PDN

INDONESIA: 40 CHRISTIANS DETAINED FOR 'INSULTING ISLAM'

A group of Indonesian Christians face up to five years in jail if they are found guilty of ‘insulting Islam’.

More than 40 Christians were detained in April after a video showing them standing around a copy of the Koran and praying for Muslims ‘deceived’ by it was leaked to Islamic groups. They then circulated it to the media.

Now the Christians have been charged under Article 156 KUPH which targets 'anyone who expresses hatred, opposition or insults one individual or groups of Indonesian citizens in public', according to the Voice of the Martyrs USA. Their accusers claim blasphemy. Among the Christians who have been detained are the parents of young children.

* Ask God to protect and secure the release of these Christians.
Pray that the broadcasting of the tape will not have wider repercussions for Indonesian Christians.


Sources: AssistNews Service; BBC; BosNewsLife; Centre for Legal Aid Assistance and Settlement; China Aid Association; Christian Post; Christian Solidarity Worldwide; Compass Direct; International Christian Concern; The Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) Canada; VOM USA.

philologos

Excellent idea PDN. People should admire the efforts of Christians throughout the world, especially in areas where it is difficult to be a Christian in the modern day. Peace and respect to all the Christians who are being persecuted today, and I hope that the Lord will save them from their difficulty.

robindch

Thanks for the Indo link, PDN Did I mention that a christian tried to convert me not one month ago in Indonesia? Ruined my Saturday evening, I can tell you.

Arggh, it's persecution of atheists!! I must start an atheist martyr-complex thread in A+A!

PDN

robindch wrote:

Thanks for the Indo link, PDN Did I mention that a christian tried to convert me not one month ago in Indonesia? Ruined my Saturday evening, I can tell you.

Arggh, it's persecution of atheists!! I must start an atheist martyr-complex thread in A+A!

Are you ever in Surabaya? I have a friend there pastors a church. I think you would hate it.

Galvasean

Although I'm an atheist myself I hope those Christians are let go. Nobody deserves to go to jail for 'insulting Islam', something which is suprisingly easy to do these days...


* That graphic is a no no/ Asia*

robindch

PDN wrote:

Are you ever in Surabaya? I have a friend there pastors a church. I think you would hate it.

No, never been there. It's a long drive and I don't like flying with Garuda.

But, yes, you're probably right -- I'd hate to go there all the time and hear the same pious waffle week in week out. But once or twice? Nah, that'd be fun -- not one of the ten services I've been at in the last five years has failed to give me something to take away.

And of course, I must second Galvasean's wish that these good folks are released immediately. Thoughtcrime is no crime, whether it's muslims penalizing christians like in Indonesia, or christians having a go at muslims like in Guantanamo (I know you like your examples fresh, PDN )

Sangre

This is why governments need to be secular! You can't always trust those in charge.

Anyway, does nobody read a history book? Making a martyr of your enemy = BAD FOR YOUR CAUSE.

Fallen Seraph

PDN wrote:

Now the Christians have been charged under Article 156 KUPH which targets 'anyone who expresses hatred, opposition or insults one individual or groups of Indonesian citizens in public'

It is illegal to disagree with Indonesians on their own turf...? That must surely be some serious human rights abuse.

Indeed, it'd be a terrible thing were those christians to be jailed.

Hivemind187

Fallen Seraph wrote:

It is illegal to disagree with Indonesians on their own turf...? That must surely be some serious human rights abuse.

Indeed, it'd be a terrible thing were those christians to be jailed.

I wonder how this line is applied.

By this reasoning a man and wife having a domestic could both be arrested for "opposing one another"

UU

Obviously a thing called Free Speech does not exist in the Islamic world because of course Islam is right and if anyone disagrees with it, they are either locked up or killed. Of course I disagree with what happened to those Christians in Indonesia, not because of the fact that they are Christian but because they are human beings and it totally denies their human rights. I would feel the same if they were atheist, gay or Jewish or whatever. Of course, it was centuries since the Spanish Inquisition did the same thing. At least few Christian churches do horrific stuff like that anymore. Humans will always find a way of hurting each other.

jonny72

I think Islam is currently going through a phase that Christianity has largely passed through.

lostexpectation

PDN wrote:

When we talk about persecution we tend to think of Christians being fed to the lions in Ancient Rome. However, persecution is very much a present reality. I thought it would be good to post some up to date reports so other Christians can pray.

PDN

INDONESIA: 40 CHRISTIANS DETAINED FOR 'INSULTING ISLAM'

A group of Indonesian Christians face up to five years in jail if they are found guilty of ‘insulting Islam’.

More than 40 Christians were detained in April after a video showing them standing around a copy of the Koran and praying for Muslims ‘deceived’ by it was leaked to Islamic groups. They then circulated it to the media.

on eahs to admit that this was silly thing for them to do (and video) not far off insulting, but one hopes that with the highlighting of the cruel overeaction they will get out of prison soon.

PDN

Here's another persecuted believer to pray for:
PDN


Gong Shengliang, the founder and pastor of The “Huanan Church” (South China Church, SCC), was arrested along with 16 other SCC leaders in April of 2001. In December 2001 his original death sentence was reduced to life in prison. He was convicted of using a heretical organization to undermine the implementation of the law. This church has been banned by authorities. The SCC is a relatively small house-church group, with 100,000 members yet over 1500 SCC leaders have been arrested as the government attempts to eradicate this illegal group. Pastor Gong was beaten severely while in prison and is now under 24/7 “observation” by two guards. His family may visit him once a month.

According to China Aid Association, Pastor Gong was beaten on March 21, 2006 by another prisoner named Lei. As a result of the beating, Pastor Gong could not move his mouth for three days. His face was badly swollen and he also suffered some hearing loss in his right ear. When Gong reported the beating to prison officials, they punished him by taking away two of the merits points he had gained during the last year. By contrast, the prison officers praised Lei.

Galvasean

Don't get me wrong, i have the utmost sympathy for anyone who is persecuted for their beliefs in such a way but the topic title seems to imply that Christians are the only people in the world persecuted for their beliefs.
I think prayer for ALL people who have been persecuted unfairly would be far better than just those who share your exact beliefs.

PDN

Galvasean wrote:

Don't get me wrong, i have the utmost sympathy for anyone who is persecuted for their beliefs in such a way but the topic title seems to imply that Christians are the only people in the world persecuted for their beliefs.
I think prayer for ALL people who have been persecuted unfairly would be far better than just those who share your exact beliefs.

The topic title implies nothing of the kind. It says "The Persecuted Church" because it is posted in the Christianity forum by a Christian in order to ask other Christians to pray for their fellow Christians who are being persecuted across the world for their faith. It nowhere states or implies that Christians have a monopoly on being persecuted.

The Mad Hatter

PDN wrote:

The topic title implies nothing of the kind. It says "The Persecuted Church" because it is posted in the Christianity forum by a Christian in order to ask other Christians to pray for their fellow Christians who are being persecuted across the world for their faith. It nowhere states or implies that Christians have a monopoly on being persecuted.

Be that as it may, I think the second part of his post is justified, and well worth considering.

Zombrex

The Mad Hatter wrote:

Be that as it may, I think the second part of his post is justified, and well worth considering.

I would imagine that Christians simply pray for all those who suffer, where ever or who ever they are, rather than singling out specific groups. God after all knows better than anyone who suffers and who doesn't.

But I don't know, I'm not a Christian, and I wouldn't claim to know how prayer is supposed to work. It might be a requirement that one pick specific things to pray about, stop it getting ridiculously general ("I hope everyone ever where is good")

PDN

It is extremely natural, and proper, for us to pray more intensely for those with whom we are most closely identified. When my child was seriously ill I prayed for her by name. I didn't just pray, "Lord, please heal every sick person in the world today."

Christians believe that those who share our faith are our brothers and sisters. The Bible states, "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." (Galatians 6:10).

I had thought that simply asking other Christians to pray for the persecuted church would be a non-controversial act. I am saddened that some are so petty that they wish to use this thread to criticise believers for something so inoffensive as wanting to pray for each other.

If you want to highlight the plight of other persecuted groups then other forums are probably the best place to do that (after all, as we are often reminded, Christians have no monopoly on compassion). I think it is perfectly right and proper for details of suffering Christians around the world to be posted in the Christianity forum in order to solicit prayer from other Christians.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote:

It is extremely natural, and proper, for us to pray more intensely for those with whom we are most closely identified. When my child was seriously ill I prayed for her by name. I didn't just pray, "Lord, please heal every sick person in the world today."

Christians believe that those who share our faith are our brothers and sisters. The Bible states, "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." (Galatians 6:10).

I had thought that simply asking other Christians to pray for the persecuted church would be a non-controversial act. I am saddened that some are so petty that they wish to use this thread to criticise believers for something so inoffensive as wanting to pray for each other.

If you want to highlight the plight of other persecuted groups then other forums are probably the best place to do that (after all, as we are often reminded, Christians have no monopoly on compassion). I think it is perfectly right and proper for details of suffering Christians around the world to be posted in the Christianity forum in order to solicit prayer from other Christians.

Just to turn the topic on its head a bit. If the Christianity church is being persecuted in China can we the Scientology Church is being persectuted, here and in Germany?

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote:

Just to turn the topic on its head a bit. If the Christianity church is being persecuted in China can we the Scientology Church is being persectuted, here and in Germany?

I would prefer it in another thread, but if Scientologists were being imprisoned, physically beaten, or executed here or in Germany practicing their beliefs then yes, of course that would be persecution.

My understanding is that Scientologists have been denied permission to register as a religion in Germany, but must instead be registered as a commericial business. While that may be discrimination it hardly ranks as persecution. However, maybe I am misinformed. Maybe secret police in Frankfurt are pulling out Scientologists' toe nails with pliers as I write this post.

BrianCalgary

PDN wrote:

I had thought that simply asking other Christians to pray for the persecuted church would be a non-controversial act. I am saddened that some are so petty that they wish to use this thread to criticise believers for something so inoffensive as wanting to pray for each other.

If you want to highlight the plight of other persecuted groups then other forums are probably the best place to do that (after all, as we are often reminded, Christians have no monopoly on compassion). I think it is perfectly right and proper for details of suffering Christians around the world to be posted in the Christianity forum in order to solicit prayer from other Christians.

And indeed this is a very appropraite thread in the forum. If you wish to post reports of persecuted groups in parts of the world feel free to do so on another thread.

Let's leave this one for the persecuted church which has Jesus Christ as it's head.

PDN

The brother of a North Korean Christian on death row for his faith has made an impassioned plea for help to secure his release.

Son Jong Nam, a former army captain, has now been in captivity for more than 560 days after being charged with being a 'national traitor' and 'receiving Christianity'.

His younger brother Son Jong Hoon travelled to Washington to make a public address on July 12 about his brother's plight. He was supported by The Voice of the Martyrs USA and by US senator Sam Brownback. ‘He is a brave and good man,’ Son Jong Hoon told a press conference. 'Please help my brother.'

Son Jong Nam, who is in his late-40s, became a Christian when he first defected from North Korea to China in 1997 with his wife, son and brother. Some reports suggest his wife died in China of complications in pregnancy as a result of being beaten by the authorities in North Korea. While his brother managed to reach South Korea, Son Jong Nam was captured, repatriated and jailed for three years.

When he was released on parole in May 2004 – thanks, apparently, to 'influential contacts' – he met up with his brother in China but later returned home. Back in North Korea, he was arrested in January 2006, on the basis of intelligence supplied by the secret service. Soon afterwards, he was sentenced to death.

It's not known whether he is alive or dead – but his execution has not been announced.

UU

UU wrote:

I would feel the same if they were atheist, gay or Jewish or whatever.

lol. I didn't realise being gay was a religious choice.

Didn't someone post up a story of someone in... malaysia? in trouble with the islam court because they insisted they were christian
maybe it was in the islam forum

hopefully they'll all get over themselves soon

Spyral

actually there is a guy who turned away from being gay. Showing that perhaps it is possible.

Zombrex

Spyral wrote:

actually there is a guy who turned away from being gay. Showing that perhaps it is possible.

Anyone can turn away from being gay, or even turn towards being gay.

But most in the gay community would probably just say that this guy is kidding himself and is only acting this way out of guilt and shame

Hivemind187

Spyral wrote:

actually there is a guy who turned away from being gay. Showing that perhaps it is possible.

Possible for HIM maybe. Not in every single case.

In fact the so-called gay-recovery programes (almost all religiously based) have a less thean 1% sucess rate by scientific standards which is even lower than you should expect by accident.

Homosexuality is a condition of biological, mental and emotional programming, exactly the same as hetero or bi-sexuality. It is not something that can be switched on or off like a light, it is an aspect of personality like sense of humour.

PDN

Bringing it back on topic:

Egyptian Surgeon Held Hostage By Saudi Government Due To His Christian Faith
Added: Aug 2nd, 2007 4:05 AM

Saudis Refuse To Grant Exit Visa After Discovering He’s Christian

Washington D.C. (ICC) --The Washington-DC based human rights group, International Christian Concern (ICC) www.persecution.org has learned that an Egyptian Christian working in Saudi Arabia as a surgeon has been repeatedly blocked from going home for over two years. The Saudi government has intentionally run him in circles, promising he can leave, then refusing to let him go.

Dr. Mamdooh Fahmy, a surgeon at Albyaan Menfhoh Medical Center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, was removed from his position at the center six months ago, and has not been allowed to obtain another work permit because of his faith. A group of his Muslim colleagues targeted him as soon as he began his work at the medical center in 2004, repeatedly harassing him to become a Muslim also. He became tired of avoiding the conversation, and eventually told them that he was a Christian and would not change his religion. At this, they accused him of being a missionary.

In a letter to ICC, Dr. Fahmy told us what happens in Saudi Arabia when you publicly acknowledge the Christian faith, “On April 12, 2005, I had a surprise visit from three Saudi officials at work. Two were in civilian attire and one was a police officer. They informed me that they were from the morals policing organization [Muttawa]. They proceeded to insult me publicly before the staff and patients of the medical center. They confiscated my wallet, cell phone and keys. They handcuffed me, shacked [sic] my legs and dragged me to a waiting car, then proceeded to my residence.

“While the police officer and I remained in the vehicle, the two civilians raided my house, confiscating all written and published materials (books, notes, etc). I was then taken to the police station on where I was formally accused of being a Christian missionary and of consuming alcoholic beverages at work. I was placed in solitary confinement for five days. After my confinement they began the interrogation process. Each time I was questioned, I was cursed and insulted. The interrogator referred to me as ‘Infidel.’”

Immediately after his release from interrogation, Dr. Fahmy attempted to obtain his passport back from his employment sponsor. The sponsor told him that he no longer had his passport, and it was now in police custody.

This was only the start of a long exercise in futility in Dr. Fahmy’s attempts to return to Egypt. In the latest episode, one very telling of Saudi intransigence, Dr. Fahmy was told that all he needed to do to leave the country was to file certain departure applications after Egyptian officials raised his situation with the Saudi government. Dr. Fahmy filed as advised, but not only was the application rejected, but Saudi officials laughed in his face for attempting to leave.

Please contact the Saudi embassy in your country and let them know that you have heard of Dr. Fahmy’s case and that it is shameful for the Saudis to be treating him in this way. Let them know they ought to allow him to return to Egypt.

robindch

PDN wrote:

Saudis Refuse To Grant Exit Visa After Discovering He’s Christian

I wonder what the truth is here?

The story from persecution.org is unaware that the Saudi entry form and visa application form actually you to declare your religion. Filling in the box as "atheist" gets you refused entry to the country, while putting in "jew" will land you in prison, consequently, I've to put down "christian" to get into the country -- a clear case of religious discrimination against atheists in favour of christians (and that in an Islamic country!)

So, the Saudis, far from suddenly "discovering he's christian" would in fact have been perfectly well aware of his religious affiliation when he entered the country.

Given that the headline is false, one can only suspect that the rest of the story is similarly inaccurate.

.

Zombrex

robindch wrote:

I wonder what the truth is here?

I would imagine what happened was that he was reported to the authorities for publicly practicing his non-Muslim religion (by discussing his Christianity) by one of his co-workers. This is a big no no in Saudi Arabia. While there are close to a million Christians in the country they are not allowed any pubic or private practice of their religion while in the country. I would imagine that the doctor doesn't actually realise this why he is in trouble, and believes all he has done was say he was Christian, which you are correct the State would have already known and would not have been a big deal.

I'm surprised that they didn't let him leave. Normally they are happy to see non-Muslims leave, often deporting them.

hairyheretic

Wicknight wrote:

I'm surprised that they didn't let him leave. Normally they are happy to see non-Muslims leave, often deporting them.

I was kinda thinking that myself.

"We don't like this guy, we don't want him around, so let's take his passport and stop him leaving."

robindch

Wicknight wrote:

This is a big no no in Saudi Arabia. [...] I would imagine that the doctor doesn't actually realise this why he is in trouble, and believes all he has done was say he was Christian

The doctor is quoted as being from Egypt, so I think it's reasonable to assume that he would have been familiar with the Saudi view of unislamic religions -- the attitudes are well known in the region. And I've little doubt that the doctor was whisked away and jailed -- one of our guys was denied boarding on the BMI out of Riyadh last Saturday evening for unintentionally violating an especially inane visa requirement -- but I suspect that there's rather more to this story than the simple story of unpleasant religious prejudice written by persecution.org.

BTW, the Saudi's religious police, the Muttawa, who thankfully left me alone the last time I was caught in a shopping mall when the call to prayer went out (but hoovered up all the other Arab males present), are having their toenails cut by the Saudi government:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5016962.stm

And this story is truly remarkable:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/51218647-6330-4021-AD89-4CC6F26BEB33.htm

I wish her the best of luck, as well as the Egyptian doctor.

Galvasean

I say good look to them all. I had no idea the Saudi Arabian authorities were so.. I'm not sure if I can phrase this properly.. zealous in their prejudices?

Spyral

My understanding is that Scientologists have been denied permission to register as a religion in Germany, but must instead be registered as a commericial business. While that may be discrimination it hardly ranks as persecution. However, maybe I am misinformed. Maybe secret police in Frankfurt are pulling out Scientologists' toe nails with pliers as I write this post.

dont you have to pay money to advance to the nect rank in that religion or something ? ergo its a business ?

PDN

Three prominent Christian leaders from Hebei province were locked in an iron cage for insisting on their independence from China’s official church.

The three – Liang Aijun, Wang Zhong and Gao Jinbao – were in Inner Mongolia when they were seized by Chinese security police at a private home in Ximeng region. They were in hiding after resisting the authorities’ attempts to make them join the registered church.

When they were first arrested, they were caged like animals, denied water and barred from speaking. The three men have since been transferred to an undisclosed location.

A fourth church leader from Hebei, Cui Tai, has been detained by the Public Security Bureau (PSB) ever since he was involved in a minor motorbike accident in Zhuolu County in early July. His details were initially taken by the police but he was then handed over to the PSB. Cui Tai has also refused to register with the official church.

Meanwhile, in Xinjiang province, 10 PSB officials raided a house church and detained six of its members for 12 hours. One Christian was beaten up during the raid and a number of ‘illegal religious materials’ including Bibles were confiscated.

Members of the congregation were forced to sign an official document which stated that the signatory’s relatives would be held responsible if the signatory persisted in religious activities. It also claimed that Christians’ relatives were obliged to help believers ‘reform’ – and included a list of penalties for non-compliance.

China Aid reports that the son of the Christian whose home was raided has since been sacked from his job, reportedly as a direct consequence of his father’s church involvement.

* Pray for the swift release of the four church leaders from Hebei. Thank God for their principled stance against joining the officially recognised church.
* Pray that the national government will override Xinjiang officials’ attempts to punish Christians’ relatives simply by association.

Sources: AsiaNews; Assist News; BBC; China Aid Association; Christian Solidarity Worldwide; Compass Direct; International Christian Concern; RI sources; The News, Pakistan; The Voice of the Martyrs Canada.

DerKaiser

This thread is an affront to everyone who isn't Christian, the church is the worst bully of them all, let's face it, christians are vicious, why, 500 years ago I'd be burned at the stake for even saying this

philologos

Indeed some Christian leaders were vicious. Just look to Martin Luther and his case of anti-Semitism, which later inspired Hitler. But to say this for all Christians is a pure generalisation on your part.

PDN

DerKaiser wrote:

This thread is an affront to everyone who isn't Christian, the church is the worst bully of them all, let's face it, christians are vicious, why, 500 years ago I'd be burned at the stake for even saying this

No, it's only an affront to bigoted fatheads. Any sensible and reasonable non-Christian would have no problem with Christians, on a Christianity forum, wanting to pray for other Christians who are suffering persecution.

You might be burned at the stake 500 years ago, and that might be an argument for asserting that the Church was vicious 500 years ago, but it really is a very weak argument for saying that Christians are vicious today.

BrianCalgary

DerKaiser wrote:

This thread is an affront to everyone who isn't Christian, the church is the worst bully of them all, let's face it, christians are vicious, why, 500 years ago I'd be burned at the stake for even saying this

A couple of questions:

Can you define what you mean by church?
Can you tell us where they are the persecutors?

Thanks.

DerKaiser

I mean mainly the RC church, but it extends to anyone who has fundamentalist beliefs, and I must apologise for genralising, it's not all Christians, I have some very strong bonds with Christians, but there is recent evidence of violence perpetrated by all faiths, notably David Koresh, but that aside the USAF apparantly have a very strong christian core that bullies people of different faiths unless they convert, as one of the largest religions in the world in numbers and possibly the largest in popularity has very little worry of persecution, but feels free to abuse people of other or anti faiths, I have met people who regard themselves as "soldiers of the lord" and are very intimidating towards athiests and such like, so if the Christians feel like their being persecuted for their faith, pull the other one, mate, it's got bells on it!

PDN

DerKaiser wrote:

I mean mainly the RC church, but it extends to anyone who has fundamentalist beliefs, and I must apologise for genralising, it's not all Christians, I have some very strong bonds with Christians, but there is recent evidence of violence perpetrated by all faiths, notably David Koresh, but that aside the USAF apparantly have a very strong christian core that bullies people of different faiths unless they convert, as one of the largest religions in the world in numbers and possibly the largest in popularity has very little worry of persecution, but feels free to abuse people of other or anti faiths, I have met people who regard themselves as "soldiers of the lord" and are very intimidating towards athiests and such like, so if the Christians feel like their being persecuted for their faith, pull the other one, mate, it's got bells on it!

I'm not quite sure what the US Air Force has to do with anything (Or does USAF have some other meaning?)

Christians are currently being arrested, tortured & executed. This happens in Islamic countries and also in North Korea & China. Are you denying that this occurs? Or are you saying that because Catholics killed people 500 years ago then Christians have no right to object if they get tortured today?

Scofflaw

PDN wrote:

No, it's only an affront to bigoted fatheads. Any sensible and reasonable non-Christian would have no problem with Christians, on a Christianity forum, wanting to pray for other Christians who are suffering persecution.

You might be burned at the stake 500 years ago, and that might be an argument for asserting that the Church was vicious 500 years ago, but it really is a very weak argument for saying that Christians are vicious today.

As an atheist, I'm completely with PDN on this one. Those who are suffering persecution today are in exactly the same position as those who historically suffered at the stake - there is no 'turnaround' in this, but a continuation.

cordially,
Scofflaw

DerKaiser

PDN wrote:

I'm not quite sure what the US Air Force has to do with anything (Or does USAF have some other meaning?)

Christians are currently being arrested, tortured & executed. This happens in Islamic countries and also in North Korea & China. Are you denying that this occurs? Or are you saying that because Catholics killed people 500 years ago then Christians have no right to object if they get tortured today?

Absolutely not, but you're big and ugly enough to take care of yourselves, I think it's a tragedy, but as for "persecuted church", that's going a bit far, the klan are a christian group, right? Persecuted?

Fanny Cradock

DerKaiser wrote:

Absolutely not, but you're big and ugly enough to take care of yourselves, I think it's a tragedy, but as for "persecuted church", that's going a bit far, the klan are a christian group, right? Persecuted?

So let me get this straight. Individual Christians who are being tortured for their faith in China (no melodrama there) are to fend for themselves against the State? Perhaps they could use some Kung Fu moves!

You seem to feel the need to latch on to any group perpetrating violence - however tenuous their link with 'Christianity' is - and use that as a justification for your opinions. What in the world has the KKK or the USAF got to do with people in China?

What you have decided to do - I'm assuming this is through ignorance - is to lump all 'Christians' in together and blanket condemn us all. I do apologise for taking the moral high ground here, but I find your justifications difficult to take.

DerKaiser

Nothing whatsoever to do with people in China, I'm speaking more generally, but this I think you have already guessed, and are definitely on a tall horse of some description.

Please don't get me wrong, I do think it's awful that people, whatever your background is, can be treated like this, I just think the title is a little offensive,

Scofflaw

DerKaiser wrote:

Please don't get me wrong, I do think it's awful that people, whatever your background is, can be treated like this, I just think the title is a little offensive,

It refers to the "church" in the sense of the body of believers, not to the institutional church. It does have a ring of melodrama to it - except that we are talking about people being tortured here.

cordially,
Scofflaw

PDN

DerKaiser wrote:

Nothing whatsoever to do with people in China, I'm speaking more generally, but this I think you have already guessed, and are definitely on a tall horse of some description.

Please don't get me wrong, I do think it's awful that people, whatever your background is, can be treated like this, I just think the title is a little offensive,

How are we supposed to guess what you are thinking when you aren't very good at expressing it?

Actually there is nothing strange in referring to "the x church" when a section of the church is going through an experience (x). For example, in Nazi Germany there were a number of Christians who were known as "the Confessing Church" because they signed up to the Barmen Declaration and opposed Nazism. They were not an institutional body, and, sadly, they did not even constitute the majority of professing Christians in Germany.

Therefore, it is perfectly sensible for the thread to use the title "The Persecuted Church" in its commonly used meaning as referring to the millions of Christians who live under conditions of persecution.

PDN

Lawyers in Pakistan say that a growing number of young Christian girls are being abducted, forcibly converted to Islam and married to Muslim men.

The statement comes after the disappearance of two children from Faisalabad – followed by the delivery of marriage certificates to their parents’ homes.

Zunaira Rasheed, who is 11, vanished from her home on August 5. Her mother sold everything she owned to pay a man to trace her – but all she got in return was a marriage certificate signed by a Muslim cleric in Lahore. On it, Zunaira’s age was given as 18.

Shamaila Tabassum, 16, was last seen in a car with several Muslim neighbours, on the way, she said, to see her father in hospital after a ‘serious accident’. Her family smelled a rat when Shamaila’s father came home, in perfect health – and Shamaila did not.

Some days later, a certificate arrived at her parents’ home, announcing Shamaila’s marriage to one of her Muslim neighbours. The document was dated August 4 – 12 days before her disappearance. On both certificates, the girls had been given a Muslim name, suggesting they had converted to Islam.

The families’ lawyer Khalil Tahir said forcible conversions to Islam are on the increase, but poverty usually prevents Christian families from reporting such cases to the police. He is acting pro bono on these two cases – cases which the police have still to register under the penal code.

* Pray for the safe return of Shamaila and Zunaira. Ask God to protect them, physically and spiritually.
* Pray that the Pakistani authorities would do more to uphold the rights of religious minorities such as Christians, who are often considered second-class citizens.

hairyheretic

If true, I'd consider that very disturbing even without the religious angle.

PDN

hairyheretic wrote:

If true, I'd consider that very disturbing even without the religious angle.

Apparently this is happening to Hindu girls in Pakistan as well. The Asian Human Rights Commission has a report here: http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2007/2158/

wes

PDN wrote:

* Pray that the Pakistani authorities would do more to uphold the rights of religious minorities such as Christians, who are often considered second-class citizens.

I agree the Pakistani government needs to do a lot more. To be fair they do protect Churches with soldiers etc when things are going bad in the country. However, there is a lot more they could do, especially in the tribal area's where its most dangerous.

Just a quick note on Indonesia, is a secular country. There are some local councils that implement Sharia, but these are a minority last I checked, otherwise the country is a secular nation. Also, not defending the discrimination of the Christians as mentioned by the first poster, just pointing that Indonesia is a secular nation. The treatment of the Christians is deplorable and I hope there released soon.

Splendour

Unfortunately, we don't have to go as far as Asia to reveal the persecuted church. Channel 4's 'Dispatches' programme last night was quite disturbing.
It touched on Muslims' who are being persecuted for having converted to the Christian faith. Some Muslums (not all), see this as being an apostasy to their faith and the punishment is death!

Frightening stuff indeed and so close to home...