The Persecuted Church

PDN

When we talk about persecution we tend to think of Christians being fed to the lions in Ancient Rome. However, persecution is very much a present reality. I thought it would be good to post some up to date reports so other Christians can pray.

PDN

INDONESIA: 40 CHRISTIANS DETAINED FOR 'INSULTING ISLAM'

A group of Indonesian Christians face up to five years in jail if they are found guilty of ‘insulting Islam’.

More than 40 Christians were detained in April after a video showing them standing around a copy of the Koran and praying for Muslims ‘deceived’ by it was leaked to Islamic groups. They then circulated it to the media.

Now the Christians have been charged under Article 156 KUPH which targets 'anyone who expresses hatred, opposition or insults one individual or groups of Indonesian citizens in public', according to the Voice of the Martyrs USA. Their accusers claim blasphemy. Among the Christians who have been detained are the parents of young children.

* Ask God to protect and secure the release of these Christians.
Pray that the broadcasting of the tape will not have wider repercussions for Indonesian Christians.


Sources: AssistNews Service; BBC; BosNewsLife; Centre for Legal Aid Assistance and Settlement; China Aid Association; Christian Post; Christian Solidarity Worldwide; Compass Direct; International Christian Concern; The Voice of the Martyrs (VOM) Canada; VOM USA.

philologos

Excellent idea PDN. People should admire the efforts of Christians throughout the world, especially in areas where it is difficult to be a Christian in the modern day. Peace and respect to all the Christians who are being persecuted today, and I hope that the Lord will save them from their difficulty.

robindch

Thanks for the Indo link, PDN Did I mention that a christian tried to convert me not one month ago in Indonesia? Ruined my Saturday evening, I can tell you.

Arggh, it's persecution of atheists!! I must start an atheist martyr-complex thread in A+A!

PDN

robindch wrote:

Thanks for the Indo link, PDN Did I mention that a christian tried to convert me not one month ago in Indonesia? Ruined my Saturday evening, I can tell you.

Arggh, it's persecution of atheists!! I must start an atheist martyr-complex thread in A+A!

Are you ever in Surabaya? I have a friend there pastors a church. I think you would hate it.

Galvasean

Although I'm an atheist myself I hope those Christians are let go. Nobody deserves to go to jail for 'insulting Islam', something which is suprisingly easy to do these days...


* That graphic is a no no/ Asia*

robindch

PDN wrote:

Are you ever in Surabaya? I have a friend there pastors a church. I think you would hate it.

No, never been there. It's a long drive and I don't like flying with Garuda.

But, yes, you're probably right -- I'd hate to go there all the time and hear the same pious waffle week in week out. But once or twice? Nah, that'd be fun -- not one of the ten services I've been at in the last five years has failed to give me something to take away.

And of course, I must second Galvasean's wish that these good folks are released immediately. Thoughtcrime is no crime, whether it's muslims penalizing christians like in Indonesia, or christians having a go at muslims like in Guantanamo (I know you like your examples fresh, PDN )

Sangre

This is why governments need to be secular! You can't always trust those in charge.

Anyway, does nobody read a history book? Making a martyr of your enemy = BAD FOR YOUR CAUSE.

Fallen Seraph

PDN wrote:

Now the Christians have been charged under Article 156 KUPH which targets 'anyone who expresses hatred, opposition or insults one individual or groups of Indonesian citizens in public'

It is illegal to disagree with Indonesians on their own turf...? That must surely be some serious human rights abuse.

Indeed, it'd be a terrible thing were those christians to be jailed.

Hivemind187

Fallen Seraph wrote:

It is illegal to disagree with Indonesians on their own turf...? That must surely be some serious human rights abuse.

Indeed, it'd be a terrible thing were those christians to be jailed.

I wonder how this line is applied.

By this reasoning a man and wife having a domestic could both be arrested for "opposing one another"

UU

Obviously a thing called Free Speech does not exist in the Islamic world because of course Islam is right and if anyone disagrees with it, they are either locked up or killed. Of course I disagree with what happened to those Christians in Indonesia, not because of the fact that they are Christian but because they are human beings and it totally denies their human rights. I would feel the same if they were atheist, gay or Jewish or whatever. Of course, it was centuries since the Spanish Inquisition did the same thing. At least few Christian churches do horrific stuff like that anymore. Humans will always find a way of hurting each other.

jonny72

I think Islam is currently going through a phase that Christianity has largely passed through.

lostexpectation

PDN wrote:

When we talk about persecution we tend to think of Christians being fed to the lions in Ancient Rome. However, persecution is very much a present reality. I thought it would be good to post some up to date reports so other Christians can pray.

PDN

INDONESIA: 40 CHRISTIANS DETAINED FOR 'INSULTING ISLAM'

A group of Indonesian Christians face up to five years in jail if they are found guilty of ‘insulting Islam’.

More than 40 Christians were detained in April after a video showing them standing around a copy of the Koran and praying for Muslims ‘deceived’ by it was leaked to Islamic groups. They then circulated it to the media.

on eahs to admit that this was silly thing for them to do (and video) not far off insulting, but one hopes that with the highlighting of the cruel overeaction they will get out of prison soon.

PDN

Here's another persecuted believer to pray for:
PDN


Gong Shengliang, the founder and pastor of The “Huanan Church” (South China Church, SCC), was arrested along with 16 other SCC leaders in April of 2001. In December 2001 his original death sentence was reduced to life in prison. He was convicted of using a heretical organization to undermine the implementation of the law. This church has been banned by authorities. The SCC is a relatively small house-church group, with 100,000 members yet over 1500 SCC leaders have been arrested as the government attempts to eradicate this illegal group. Pastor Gong was beaten severely while in prison and is now under 24/7 “observation” by two guards. His family may visit him once a month.

According to China Aid Association, Pastor Gong was beaten on March 21, 2006 by another prisoner named Lei. As a result of the beating, Pastor Gong could not move his mouth for three days. His face was badly swollen and he also suffered some hearing loss in his right ear. When Gong reported the beating to prison officials, they punished him by taking away two of the merits points he had gained during the last year. By contrast, the prison officers praised Lei.

Galvasean

Don't get me wrong, i have the utmost sympathy for anyone who is persecuted for their beliefs in such a way but the topic title seems to imply that Christians are the only people in the world persecuted for their beliefs.
I think prayer for ALL people who have been persecuted unfairly would be far better than just those who share your exact beliefs.

PDN

Galvasean wrote:

Don't get me wrong, i have the utmost sympathy for anyone who is persecuted for their beliefs in such a way but the topic title seems to imply that Christians are the only people in the world persecuted for their beliefs.
I think prayer for ALL people who have been persecuted unfairly would be far better than just those who share your exact beliefs.

The topic title implies nothing of the kind. It says "The Persecuted Church" because it is posted in the Christianity forum by a Christian in order to ask other Christians to pray for their fellow Christians who are being persecuted across the world for their faith. It nowhere states or implies that Christians have a monopoly on being persecuted.

The Mad Hatter

PDN wrote:

The topic title implies nothing of the kind. It says "The Persecuted Church" because it is posted in the Christianity forum by a Christian in order to ask other Christians to pray for their fellow Christians who are being persecuted across the world for their faith. It nowhere states or implies that Christians have a monopoly on being persecuted.

Be that as it may, I think the second part of his post is justified, and well worth considering.

Zombrex

The Mad Hatter wrote:

Be that as it may, I think the second part of his post is justified, and well worth considering.

I would imagine that Christians simply pray for all those who suffer, where ever or who ever they are, rather than singling out specific groups. God after all knows better than anyone who suffers and who doesn't.

But I don't know, I'm not a Christian, and I wouldn't claim to know how prayer is supposed to work. It might be a requirement that one pick specific things to pray about, stop it getting ridiculously general ("I hope everyone ever where is good")

PDN

It is extremely natural, and proper, for us to pray more intensely for those with whom we are most closely identified. When my child was seriously ill I prayed for her by name. I didn't just pray, "Lord, please heal every sick person in the world today."

Christians believe that those who share our faith are our brothers and sisters. The Bible states, "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." (Galatians 6:10).

I had thought that simply asking other Christians to pray for the persecuted church would be a non-controversial act. I am saddened that some are so petty that they wish to use this thread to criticise believers for something so inoffensive as wanting to pray for each other.

If you want to highlight the plight of other persecuted groups then other forums are probably the best place to do that (after all, as we are often reminded, Christians have no monopoly on compassion). I think it is perfectly right and proper for details of suffering Christians around the world to be posted in the Christianity forum in order to solicit prayer from other Christians.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote:

It is extremely natural, and proper, for us to pray more intensely for those with whom we are most closely identified. When my child was seriously ill I prayed for her by name. I didn't just pray, "Lord, please heal every sick person in the world today."

Christians believe that those who share our faith are our brothers and sisters. The Bible states, "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." (Galatians 6:10).

I had thought that simply asking other Christians to pray for the persecuted church would be a non-controversial act. I am saddened that some are so petty that they wish to use this thread to criticise believers for something so inoffensive as wanting to pray for each other.

If you want to highlight the plight of other persecuted groups then other forums are probably the best place to do that (after all, as we are often reminded, Christians have no monopoly on compassion). I think it is perfectly right and proper for details of suffering Christians around the world to be posted in the Christianity forum in order to solicit prayer from other Christians.

Just to turn the topic on its head a bit. If the Christianity church is being persecuted in China can we the Scientology Church is being persectuted, here and in Germany?

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote:

Just to turn the topic on its head a bit. If the Christianity church is being persecuted in China can we the Scientology Church is being persectuted, here and in Germany?

I would prefer it in another thread, but if Scientologists were being imprisoned, physically beaten, or executed here or in Germany practicing their beliefs then yes, of course that would be persecution.

My understanding is that Scientologists have been denied permission to register as a religion in Germany, but must instead be registered as a commericial business. While that may be discrimination it hardly ranks as persecution. However, maybe I am misinformed. Maybe secret police in Frankfurt are pulling out Scientologists' toe nails with pliers as I write this post.

BrianCalgary

PDN wrote:

I had thought that simply asking other Christians to pray for the persecuted church would be a non-controversial act. I am saddened that some are so petty that they wish to use this thread to criticise believers for something so inoffensive as wanting to pray for each other.

If you want to highlight the plight of other persecuted groups then other forums are probably the best place to do that (after all, as we are often reminded, Christians have no monopoly on compassion). I think it is perfectly right and proper for details of suffering Christians around the world to be posted in the Christianity forum in order to solicit prayer from other Christians.

And indeed this is a very appropraite thread in the forum. If you wish to post reports of persecuted groups in parts of the world feel free to do so on another thread.

Let's leave this one for the persecuted church which has Jesus Christ as it's head.

PDN

The brother of a North Korean Christian on death row for his faith has made an impassioned plea for help to secure his release.

Son Jong Nam, a former army captain, has now been in captivity for more than 560 days after being charged with being a 'national traitor' and 'receiving Christianity'.

His younger brother Son Jong Hoon travelled to Washington to make a public address on July 12 about his brother's plight. He was supported by The Voice of the Martyrs USA and by US senator Sam Brownback. ‘He is a brave and good man,’ Son Jong Hoon told a press conference. 'Please help my brother.'

Son Jong Nam, who is in his late-40s, became a Christian when he first defected from North Korea to China in 1997 with his wife, son and brother. Some reports suggest his wife died in China of complications in pregnancy as a result of being beaten by the authorities in North Korea. While his brother managed to reach South Korea, Son Jong Nam was captured, repatriated and jailed for three years.

When he was released on parole in May 2004 – thanks, apparently, to 'influential contacts' – he met up with his brother in China but later returned home. Back in North Korea, he was arrested in January 2006, on the basis of intelligence supplied by the secret service. Soon afterwards, he was sentenced to death.

It's not known whether he is alive or dead – but his execution has not been announced.

coffee_cake

UU wrote:

I would feel the same if they were atheist, gay or Jewish or whatever.

lol. I didn't realise being gay was a religious choice.

Didn't someone post up a story of someone in... malaysia? in trouble with the islam court because they insisted they were christian
maybe it was in the islam forum

hopefully they'll all get over themselves soon

Spyral

actually there is a guy who turned away from being gay. Showing that perhaps it is possible.

Zombrex

Spyral wrote:

actually there is a guy who turned away from being gay. Showing that perhaps it is possible.

Anyone can turn away from being gay, or even turn towards being gay.

But most in the gay community would probably just say that this guy is kidding himself and is only acting this way out of guilt and shame

Hivemind187

Spyral wrote:

actually there is a guy who turned away from being gay. Showing that perhaps it is possible.

Possible for HIM maybe. Not in every single case.

In fact the so-called gay-recovery programes (almost all religiously based) have a less thean 1% sucess rate by scientific standards which is even lower than you should expect by accident.

Homosexuality is a condition of biological, mental and emotional programming, exactly the same as hetero or bi-sexuality. It is not something that can be switched on or off like a light, it is an aspect of personality like sense of humour.

PDN

Bringing it back on topic:

Egyptian Surgeon Held Hostage By Saudi Government Due To His Christian Faith
Added: Aug 2nd, 2007 4:05 AM

Saudis Refuse To Grant Exit Visa After Discovering He’s Christian

Washington D.C. (ICC) --The Washington-DC based human rights group, International Christian Concern (ICC) www.persecution.org has learned that an Egyptian Christian working in Saudi Arabia as a surgeon has been repeatedly blocked from going home for over two years. The Saudi government has intentionally run him in circles, promising he can leave, then refusing to let him go.

Dr. Mamdooh Fahmy, a surgeon at Albyaan Menfhoh Medical Center in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, was removed from his position at the center six months ago, and has not been allowed to obtain another work permit because of his faith. A group of his Muslim colleagues targeted him as soon as he began his work at the medical center in 2004, repeatedly harassing him to become a Muslim also. He became tired of avoiding the conversation, and eventually told them that he was a Christian and would not change his religion. At this, they accused him of being a missionary.

In a letter to ICC, Dr. Fahmy told us what happens in Saudi Arabia when you publicly acknowledge the Christian faith, “On April 12, 2005, I had a surprise visit from three Saudi officials at work. Two were in civilian attire and one was a police officer. They informed me that they were from the morals policing organization [Muttawa]. They proceeded to insult me publicly before the staff and patients of the medical center. They confiscated my wallet, cell phone and keys. They handcuffed me, shacked [sic] my legs and dragged me to a waiting car, then proceeded to my residence.

“While the police officer and I remained in the vehicle, the two civilians raided my house, confiscating all written and published materials (books, notes, etc). I was then taken to the police station on where I was formally accused of being a Christian missionary and of consuming alcoholic beverages at work. I was placed in solitary confinement for five days. After my confinement they began the interrogation process. Each time I was questioned, I was cursed and insulted. The interrogator referred to me as ‘Infidel.’”

Immediately after his release from interrogation, Dr. Fahmy attempted to obtain his passport back from his employment sponsor. The sponsor told him that he no longer had his passport, and it was now in police custody.

This was only the start of a long exercise in futility in Dr. Fahmy’s attempts to return to Egypt. In the latest episode, one very telling of Saudi intransigence, Dr. Fahmy was told that all he needed to do to leave the country was to file certain departure applications after Egyptian officials raised his situation with the Saudi government. Dr. Fahmy filed as advised, but not only was the application rejected, but Saudi officials laughed in his face for attempting to leave.

Please contact the Saudi embassy in your country and let them know that you have heard of Dr. Fahmy’s case and that it is shameful for the Saudis to be treating him in this way. Let them know they ought to allow him to return to Egypt.

robindch

PDN wrote:

Saudis Refuse To Grant Exit Visa After Discovering He’s Christian

I wonder what the truth is here?

The story from persecution.org is unaware that the Saudi entry form and visa application form actually you to declare your religion. Filling in the box as "atheist" gets you refused entry to the country, while putting in "jew" will land you in prison, consequently, I've to put down "christian" to get into the country -- a clear case of religious discrimination against atheists in favour of christians (and that in an Islamic country!)

So, the Saudis, far from suddenly "discovering he's christian" would in fact have been perfectly well aware of his religious affiliation when he entered the country.

Given that the headline is false, one can only suspect that the rest of the story is similarly inaccurate.

.

Zombrex

robindch wrote:

I wonder what the truth is here?

I would imagine what happened was that he was reported to the authorities for publicly practicing his non-Muslim religion (by discussing his Christianity) by one of his co-workers. This is a big no no in Saudi Arabia. While there are close to a million Christians in the country they are not allowed any pubic or private practice of their religion while in the country. I would imagine that the doctor doesn't actually realise this why he is in trouble, and believes all he has done was say he was Christian, which you are correct the State would have already known and would not have been a big deal.

I'm surprised that they didn't let him leave. Normally they are happy to see non-Muslims leave, often deporting them.

hairyheretic

Wicknight wrote:

I'm surprised that they didn't let him leave. Normally they are happy to see non-Muslims leave, often deporting them.

I was kinda thinking that myself.

"We don't like this guy, we don't want him around, so let's take his passport and stop him leaving."

robindch

Wicknight wrote:

This is a big no no in Saudi Arabia. [...] I would imagine that the doctor doesn't actually realise this why he is in trouble, and believes all he has done was say he was Christian

The doctor is quoted as being from Egypt, so I think it's reasonable to assume that he would have been familiar with the Saudi view of unislamic religions -- the attitudes are well known in the region. And I've little doubt that the doctor was whisked away and jailed -- one of our guys was denied boarding on the BMI out of Riyadh last Saturday evening for unintentionally violating an especially inane visa requirement -- but I suspect that there's rather more to this story than the simple story of unpleasant religious prejudice written by persecution.org.

BTW, the Saudi's religious police, the Muttawa, who thankfully left me alone the last time I was caught in a shopping mall when the call to prayer went out (but hoovered up all the other Arab males present), are having their toenails cut by the Saudi government:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5016962.stm

And this story is truly remarkable:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/51218647-6330-4021-AD89-4CC6F26BEB33.htm

I wish her the best of luck, as well as the Egyptian doctor.