Glenn Gould's 25th Anniversary.

The Mad Hatter

Pianist2891 wrote:

Great to see so much activity on this forum! I am posting from the remote parts of England, and have had so many Gould related emails in the last few days that I have to reply to! As for K310, I nearly came to blows with a purist pianist who had some not so nice things to say about Glenn's insanity!

As for singing and playing, its perfectly natural...I actually find it impossible to play ANY bach without singing it. Never sing when playing Mozart or Chopin or err....Beethoven/Ravel/Rachmaninoff.

I also think its fascinating that Gould had such a terrible off-pitch singing voice, it adds to the character and uniqueness of the music in my opinion. If he had a crystal clear tenor voice, it would be just irritating! :-)

Well, people seem to be particularly irritated by his voice for some reason, when they'll ignore similar traits in others. And yes, I know Gould's an extreme example.

The way I look at it, Gould made me hear Bach, and later Brahms, like I'd never, ever heard them before. So to hell with it if he needs to sing along, and to hell with purism, too, if the resultant music is that great.

If someone could play my music that well, I wouldn't care if they ignored every dynamic and tempo marking in the piece.

Marathon Man

Check this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag3atJSmgTM

One word: Awesome.

banquo

Andreas Schiff is coming soon, too. Couldn't tell you how soon, though...

Doshea3

The Toccata from Partita No. 6 as played by Gould there truly is awesome, and that's not a word I use often. I agree with one of the comments on the page that that version is better than his 1950s studio recording. I remember being transfixed when I bought the DVD on which you find that performance. Gould played Bach in a most unique way...there's nobody else like him at all.

EDIT: And looking at that again, it must be from Gould that I got the habit of playing the left hand slightly out of sync with the right. It wasn't until I was criticized by no less than Philip Martin for doing it that I realized what I was actually doing. He also said at the time that he had listened to a recording by a famous pianist and was infuriated to hear him play like that. He never mentioned which pianist it was. Perhaps it was Gould. Then again, I have a sneaking suspicion the recording was of a Schubert sonata, but I could be wrong.

The Mad Hatter

banquo wrote:

Andreas Schiff is coming soon, too. Couldn't tell you how soon, though...

Edit: Gah! Got Schiff and Brendel mixed up!

banquo

Looking forward to this anyway. Haven't been in the NCH in *ages*. The last thing I saw there was -because one of my best friends was in it- Hello Dolly. Howver, had split with girlfriend 3 days before and was much, much too intoxicated to absorb or recall any part of the show.

Hatter: D'you reckon a bunch of lecturers will be at Brendel? I may not be able to get drunk and make an arse of myself if they are...

The Mad Hatter

banquo wrote:

Looking forward to this anyway. Haven't been in the NCH in *ages*. The last thing I saw there was -because one of my best friends was in it- Hello Dolly. Howver, had split with girlfriend 3 days before and was much, much too intoxicated to absorb or recall any part of the show.

Hatter: D'you reckon a bunch of lecturers will be at Brendel? I may not be able to get drunk and make an arse of myself if they are...

It's possible Paddy Devine will be there, alas, as he seems to go to everything. But it's a big place, and a sold-out concert, so I wouldn't worry too much about running into him.

banquo

When I was at the initial exam for the Bmus course Paddy was the man in charge and it was like 'Hey, it's that guy who's always at concerts'

Great to see so much activity in the forum btw.

The Mad Hatter

banquo wrote:

When I was at the initial exam for the Bmus course Paddy was the man in charge and it was like 'Hey, it's that guy who's always at concerts'

Great to see so much activity in the forum btw.

Ah, you see, lucky for you, you grew up in Dublin. Most of the concert activity in Sligo began after I left.

The Mad Hatter

Pianist2891, I've been meaning to ask, do you know if Gould ever commented on the preludes and fugues by Shostakovich?

Pianist2891

No comments of him on the subject exist, to my knowledge, but he did promote Shostakovich around 1964 i think, for the Stratford Festival...(along with Britten, Foss and Werner Henze). Also, when Gould was quite young, he recorded some lighter piano music of Shostakovich, but by all accounts he wasn't as keen on such music (prokofiev's lighter pieces featured on the same disc)!

The Mad Hatter

Thanks! I think it's a shame that he didn't record them, as he did fugue so well, and they're some of my favourite pieces.

He actually did a great recording of Prokofiev's Seventh sonata (Part 1; Part 2). He really didn't like that stuff?

Actually, as soon as I asked you that, it occurred to me to do a Google, and I found this article, I believe from Gould's biography, denouncing most of his music post-the first symphony.

Pianist2891

I have the book in question! As soon as I typed the reply, I realized I had completely forgotten about this article, its quite lengthy but basically Gould is not at all convincing in his views. He really didn't like the stuff, is what he says, but his reasons are altogether convoluted.

The Glenn Gould Reader is edited by Tim Page, its not a biography, but a collection of Gould's essays and articles on various subjects!

Personally, I do like some of the preludes and fugues, not all! Richter felt the same way, he didn't care for all the P & Fs so didn't record them all, which irritated Shostakovich a fair bit!

Gould does say that at times Shostakovich's music has a tendency to "not be able to speak" with any great intensity, because there is no longer anything he wishes to be intense about.

The Mad Hatter

Pianist2891 wrote:

I have the book in question! As soon as I typed the reply, I realized I had completely forgotten about this article, its quite lengthy but basically Gould is not at all convincing in his views. He really didn't like the stuff, is what he says, but his reasons are altogether convoluted.

The Glenn Gould Reader is edited by Tim Page, its not a biography, but a collection of Gould's essays and articles on various subjects!

Personally, I do like some of the preludes and fugues, not all! Richter felt the same way, he didn't care for all the P & Fs so didn't record them all, which irritated Shostakovich a fair bit!

Gould does say that at times Shostakovich's music has a tendency to "not be able to speak" with any great intensity, because there is no longer anything he wishes to be intense about.

Yes, and his refusal to record all of the preludes and fugues were my reason for not buying Richter's recording!

I don't know, I think that Gould's opinions in general are fairly good evidence that music taste is always going to be subjective, no matter how completely some composers have worked their way into the canon.

Pianist2891

Subjective is right!

So, blasphemous as it may sound, Schiff is just not my cup of tea! Ironically, I love Gould's Prokofiev & Scriabin!

The Mad Hatter

Pianist2891 wrote:

Subjective is right!

So, blasphemous as it may sound, Schiff is just not my cup of tea! Ironically, I love Gould's Prokofiev & Scriabin!

That's quite alright, I feel the same about Barenboim!

I didn't know that Gould played Skrjabin* - is it any good? What pieces did he play? Are there any recordings?

I'm learning so much about Gould in this thread that I'm really excited about the lecture-recital now!







Yes, I know, most pretentious spelling possible. But I like it!

banquo

I'm quite looking forward to this I must admit. How detailed will the lecture be? I've been to enough similiar events to expect 45 mins of 'Beethoven's favorite fruit was the banana and his star sign was x ... and now the Allegro from the 5th'.

I expect genuine musical discussion! I'll trade you for a 30 minute waffle of unity of themes in the Waldstein, ono.

Pianist2891

Well, the waffle was all aired on the radio show, the lecture-recital will be a little more substantial. While the musical examples will be confined to Tudor, Baroque and Classical Music, the lecture element won't!!

I won't be catering to the lyric fm type listeners (though nothing wrong with lyric fm!!!), but I'll waffle on about everything under the sun that I can think of. Thankfully I talk fast....:cool: VERY fast!!

While NCH may not hear of it, I'm probably going to organize a musical evening later in the year at a more informal, smaller venue, where I'll discuss OTHER works that Gould had an opinion about, and also play some of this music....(Scriabin, Schoenberg, Webern, Barber, Strauss).

Gould played Scriabin, yes...even the frighteningly difficult 5th Sonata, and Désir(in fact there's footage of him playing this in the film "The Alchemist!). So much for critics/idiots who said he didnt tackle such music because he was technically not up to the challenge!!

I have to say, I am terrified and excited at the prospect of you all being there. You do realize, I am no Alfred Brendel (thankfully!!). Or Angela Hewitt!!! Or...err. Glenn Gould. I am also quite sure some psychotic old women are going to throw things at me, because they will turn up expecting Glenn Gould and instead will find..me! Bah!

The Mad Hatter

Pianist2891 wrote:

I have to say, I am terrified and excited at the prospect of you all being there. You do realize, I am no Alfred Brendel (thankfully!!). Or Angela Hewitt!!! Or...err. Glenn Gould. I am also quite sure some psychotic old women are going to throw things at me, because they will turn up expecting Glenn Gould and instead will find..me! Bah!

Nah, we're not so bad. Just think of us as moral support! And should any crotchety old woman throw something at you, I assure you I will...er...have very strong words with them about respecting their superiors

DadaKopf

Where can I get all his awesome contrapunction stuff? Anyone?

The Mad Hatter

DadaKopf wrote:

Where can I get all his awesome contrapunction stuff? Anyone?

Er...not entirely sure what you mean by this...sorry...

Doshea3

I love Peters editions of Scriabin's works because the spelling is so pretentious. All those harsh consonants! Phew!

Gould's "blasphemous" opinions on Beethoven's late sonatas came to mind during the Brendel recital on Monday night too. Perhaps you can answer this one for me, Karishmeh—what was the movement he justified playing so fast because it was "just such a bad piece"? I've a feeling it was the first movement of Op. 111, but something tells me it's the final movement of Op. 110. A Gould recording I have to say I cannot stand is his Appassionata. Dun....du-dun.............dun.........du-dun......dun.....du-dun..........&c.

Which brings me onto Barenboim (by way of the Appassionata). I have to say that I could take him or leave him also. Not particularly inspiring Beethoven playing from what I've heard. I have a Liszt disc by him which I rather like, however.

Speaking of genuine musical discussion...did anyone else attend Hugh Tinney's pre-concert talk before Brendel the other night? I found it really interesting (I had wondered beforehand how he would discuss what appeared on the surface to be an impermeably Viennese programme), but as soon as he said "diminished 7th" I felt half the room switch off.

Gould's Scriabin 5th sonata is generally cited as proof that he really was capable of Romantic virtuosity, especially considering Richter described that very piece as one of the most supremely difficult in the repertory. Shame he never recorded Scriabin's (SKRJABIN!) late sonatas.

I'm really looking forward to the lecture-recital, and I'd certainly be interested in the second evening you're planning.

And as you mention it, Banquo, does anyone know if Gould ever recorded the Waldstein sonata? I know he left out ten of the Beethoven sonatas (the ones he hated most, except for the Hammerklavier, which was recorded for a radio broadcast), and I can almost bet he would have hated the Waldstein too. And on that subject (and somewhat related to the musically ignorant public), anyone ever hear Horowitz's anecdote about a recital he played in America in his early career when at the last minute he replaced a Prokofieff sonata with the Waldstein, which was billed by the organiser as "Beethoven's Sonata in Waltz-Time"?

banquo

HAHA! I'm guessing that the man wants something 'contrapuntal'.

Palestrina

Can't vouch for the CD, just found it randomly online. Recorded in Norfolk, so you know it's good.

Doshea3

DadaKopf—If you want Gould playing contrapuntal stuff, try Tower Records in Wicklow Street. Last time I was in there they had loads of Gould playing Bach. Art of Fugue, Well-Tempered Clavier and Inventions are good places to start if you want pure counterpoint.

Contrapunction? Sounds like a portmanteau of contrapuntal and compunction. Contrapuntal compunction? Sounds like something you might find in the St Matthew Passion.

banquo

Doshea3 wrote:

Sounds like something you might find in the St Matthew Passion.

HAR! Love it. And yeah, it turns out Gould did the complete Beethoven sonatas. Don't know to what extent he took the task seriously, seems like the kind of thing a producer would ask of a newfound talent new to the label, like: 'Here, knock out these. Done? Good. [turns to public] Money please.'

banquo

Ok, so I just doubled checked my facts and it turns out that I am 100% wrong. He did leave out 10 sonatas, and it seems that the Waldstein was one on them.

Bugger it anyway.

Doshea3

Glad you like. I think I'll keep "contrapunction" in mind next time I'm having a serious musical conversation. "Actually, Professor, the pathos inherent in the final movement of Bach's Art of Fugue is tantamount to a complete exploitation of the possibilities of contrapunction."

I don't think Gould took the Beethoven project at all seriously. There were a few sonatas he absolutely refused to record (indeed, the Waldstein might have been one of them), though he was eventually persuaded to record the detested Hammerklavier for a radio broadcast. If you've heard his Moonlight and Appassionata it's clear that musical sabotage was the order of the day, almost as strongly evident as in the Mozart recordings. As I alluded to earlier, he plays the opening movement of the Appassionata so slowly it appears to fall apart note by note. In contrast, the first movement of the Moonlight becomes a stately 4/4 dance. And in yet another contrast, the Moonlight's Presto Agitato becomes prestissimo. I wish I could see a video recording of Gould playing this, because I'd imagine it needs to be seen to be believed. I much prefer Gould's recording of this movement to any other I've heard so far.

Indeed, at Gould's death, the Beethoven project was only one of many projects to remain incomplete. He also fell slightly short of recording all of Bach's solo keyboard works, never getting around to recording the concerto transcriptions (except the D minor oboe concerto by A. Marcello) and leaving out such things as the Chromatic Fugue (I believe he hated both fantasy and fugue, but was persuaded to record the fantasy alone). Also, personally, I wish he had recorded the rest of Art of Fugue, both on organ and piano.

Pianist2891

Yes he hated almost all the "famous" Beethoven sonatas, except the Moonlight which he cited as one of his favourite Beethoven works ever!!!
He disliked the Appassionata (I really dislike it, and always have, same with Waldstein which is just neverending), Waldstein, 4& 5th Symphony, etc...all works which are "heroic" or "demanding".... Gould seemed to prefer the more elusive, less intense Beethoven works. He had very good reasons for his dislike of certain works by Beethoven.

In terms of sheer disdain and dislike - Gould had VERY strong opinions on the Hammerklavier Sonata...he did say that the very tough Fugue was nothing but "tomfoolery" on Beethoven's part, and called it the least rewarding piano piece ever written by Beethoven!!

As for the Appassionata, his reason his pretty clear...he feels that Beethoven is trying to hard to be Beethoven, the concept of "lets see if I can get away with using this theme or motif one more time". And hence his recording of it is a pretty clear attempt at bringing out just whats wrong with the work, a bit unfair on poor ol' ludwig.

The last three sonatas in particular (ironic that he recorded these when he was very young) he seems to find particularly unsatisfactory...labelling them as orchestral transcriptions in terms of their structure.

In terms of ridiculously over the top tempi - this is usually true when Gould hates a piece...he either takes it at a breakneck speed, or then exaggerates it beyond belief. There are some exceptions - his Mozart sonatas for example, where he's just trying to mock critics while giving the music a whole new dimension!

As for the "its such a bad piece quote" - op111 first movement!! :cool:


Can't remember who it was, but some famous pianist decided to inflict his dinner hostess with op111 at a ridiculously slow speed, when she asked him to play something after dinner. He politely declined but she was persistant, so he played op111! Yikes!:rolleyes:

Doshea3

Yes, I was always amused that he actually liked the Moonlight...wasn't that the one about which he said, "Musicians are supposed to have better taste than this"?

I have to say before I "got into" Beethoven, I couldn't stand his "heroic" works, especially Appassionata and Waldstein. I guess Gould never really got into him either. ("Admit it Mr Gould, you do have doubts about Beethoven!")

He's not alone in his opinions on the Hammerklavier, of course. Something tells me you also hate it, Pianist2891? I am reminded of Horowitz's one and only meeting with Schiff in the 1980s: when Horowitz asked Schiff what he played in his last concert and he proudly proclaimed that he had played the Hammerklavier, Horowitz responded, "What? Why did you do that? What are you trying to do, kill the audience?" In Horowitz's opinion, the Hammerklavier was too long and too pretentious. I like it, though. I guess I'm just long and pretentious too.

Thanks for confirming that "bad piece" quote, I knew it was one or the other! Also, I have also heard that story of the pianist and the Op. 111 after dinner...something tells me it was Hofmann.

banquo

Pianist2891 you should just print off this whole thread and use it as you recital.