Further EU expansion: Turkey

galwayrush

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Human Rights issues,also they are more suited to the Middle East, not Europe.
Definate No.

Franz Ferdinand

Turkey should NEVER be allowed into the EU.
Plenty of Irish will disagree - especially those who own cheap holiday homes over there hoping to profit from an upswing in values.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Blisterman

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Personally, I don't think they're ready yet, but if they manage to improve their human rights situation, then having a muslim country in the EU could be a step towards improving relations between the middle east and the west.

Parsley

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

billy the squid wrote:

Actually, they came third, after Japan

1. US
2. USSR
3. Japan
4. Germany
5. UK
6. Italy

Not quite sure where to put France....

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

The UK came ahead of Germany and Japan!! The Germans were occupied for 50 years and the Japanese were nuked.

MM

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

While I accept that German citizenship laws were not designed to make things difficult for Turks that was an undeniable effect.

For the Germans it wasn't enough to join into there society; you had to reject your own as well.

Tough Choice.

MM

Agamemnon

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

mountainyman wrote:

The UK came ahead of Germany and Japan!! The Germans were occupied for 50 years and the Japanese were nuked.

Yeah but both of their economies boomed like mushroom clouds afterwards. They lost the war but won the peace.

palaver

mountainyman wrote:

While I accept that German citizenship laws were not designed to make things difficult for Turks that was an undeniable effect.

For the Germans it wasn't enough to join into there society; you had to reject your own as well.

Tough Choice.

MM

What's your problem with the Germans? You seem to insist that they can't be good, there is always something you try to blame them for. You don't know the facts, you don't seem to have any experience in this case, I wonder have you ever been in Germany or Turkey?

Having to choose which passport you prefer (the one of the country you live in or the one of the country you originated) doesn't mean you have to reject one or another. Though a lot of Turks in Western Europe reject the society they live in. They insist on their own laws, like honour killing, that is, killing a girl of their own family to protect some medieval concept of "honour". I'm sure that you would accuse the Germans of suppressing another culture when they prosecute such a murder.

Get real!

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

palaver wrote:

I'm sure that you would accuse the Germans of suppressing another culture when they prosecute such a murder.

Get real!

My 'problem' with Germany is specific to this discussion and arises from relatively poor integration of the Turkish minority in Germany being used as a reason why they 'have a different mindset', 'aren't in Europe' etc.

I wouldn't accuse the Germans of suppressing another culture when they prosecute honour killers and I ask you to retract that statement. I am familiar with both countries. I speak German and a little Turkish. I am familiar enough with Germany to know that if there are problems with the Turkish minority in Germany it is not all the fault of the Turks.

MM

Reku

Human rights I definitely think should be an issue, more precisely women's rights;
If you're a red haired woman you might as well just give up lie on the ground and spread you legs, if you're blonde you're going to get a lot of hassle too. (their prostitutes mark themselves as such by colouring their hair red, blondes just don't really exist in the country, hence it's the whole thing of being able to say you had one)
Perhaps being brought into the larger stage might make them wisen up a little and leave the caveman behaviour in the past.

palaver

mountainyman wrote:

I am familiar with both countries. I speak German and a little Turkish. I am familiar enough with Germany to know that if there are problems with the Turkish minority in Germany it is not all the fault of the Turks.

MM

How familiar?

For the record: I am German, I used to live in Berlin among one of the biggest Turkish communities outside of Turkey and I worked as a social worker with Turkish youths and their families. My experience with them is first hand.

I do know about the problems, and I do recognize an opinion based solely on "being familiar enough".

Raekwon

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Not yet, and not for a long time either. I don't thing the EU is ready to share a border with Iraq.

I think if the EU want to expand more they should give countries like Albania, Bosnia Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro & Serbia priority over the likes of Turkey. They should also stop trying to brown nose the US and let the existing members of the EU decide who they want to join (although this is wishful thinking).

nesf

galwayrush wrote:

also they are more suited to the Middle East, not Europe.

In fairness, Turkey's very secular approach to Govenment etc isn't exactly in-line with a lot of the Middle East. It'd be closer to the truth to sat that Turkey doesn't really suit either Europe or the Middle East exceptionally well. It's got baggage on both sides.

MooseJam

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

No to Turkey, the evil of Islam must be fought not tolerated

Collie D

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

MooseJam wrote:

No to Turkey, the evil of Islam must be fought not tolerated

I was enjoying a somewhat intelligent discussion before you came along, **** off, idiot

MooseJam

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Collie D wrote:

I was enjoying a somewhat intelligent discussion before you came along, **** off, idiot

well you obviously won't be contributing anything intelligent, just swear words and personal abuse :rolleyes:

Collie D

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Ignoring the idiot above because I don't want him to drag me down to his level. Although hardly personal abuse calling the poster of an idiotic thread an idiot but anyway...


While Turkey's human rights record is below par, they shouldn't be allowed to enter. Until they can prove to the EU that they are treating all citizens equally they should remain on the outside. And I include women as well as Kurds in this.

The Cyprus issue is also something that needs to be looked at. Will Turkish inclusion not polarise the EU (in particular Greece and Cyprus) when the whole aim is to bring us closer together?

As for the issue of them being a Muslim state, this is not true. They have a secular constitution. Only recently thousands of people took to the streets to oppose any watering down of their secularism.

Overall, we should never say never but right now I don't think they're ready.As someone else has already said they could be an example of a successful democracy with Muslim tradition without the extremism. However, at presnt that loks a long way off.

Karoma

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Collie Banned for personal abuse. We'll discuss this further via PM.

MooseJam: It's debatable whether you have anything worth contributing to any of Boards.ie, but it's clear you have nothing to add to this thread so let me make this clear: Post in this thread again and you will be banned from AH and sub-fora. Post any more of your crap in AH and you will be banned from AH and sub-fora.

Now, let's leave the others to try hold a grown-up discussion.

trout

No. They just don't fit in with the European way.

farohar wrote:

Human rights I definitely think should be an issue, more precisely women's rights;
If you're a red haired woman you might as well just give up lie on the ground and spread you legs, if you're blonde you're going to get a lot of hassle too..

+1 ... My wife has red hair, and both my daughters are very blond. We were in Turkey on holidays several years ago, and I was stunned at the leers and lechery from almost all the Turkish men we saw. After the first two days, we didn't venture into the towns at all and stuck to the holiday homes. We've travelled widely, and never had that kind of experience in any other country.

When I went into the towns on my own, the Turkish people couldn't have been nicer to me ... but my wife & daughters had a completely different experience. Needless to say ... we won't be rushing back.:(

daveirl

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palaver

I think it shouldn't be about being a Muslim state or not. Islam is actually a very peaceful and humane religion. It's how people use a religion for their own purposes what makes it bad or good - if there is such a thing as bad and good in religious affairs.
Christianity isn't any better. Look at history, or look at recent Irish history. There was a lot of damage and mayhem and violence since christianity was established in Europe. And always in the name of god. It's not the fault of Islam when people abuse it for their own agenda.

The thing with Turkey imo is that they have a problem to accept western values. Europe with all the different cultures, hard enough to get them together as it is, has at least a common cultural history, based on christian values, watered down, secularized and varied as they may be. On a side note: The Balkan-Islam is a relict of the Turks btw after they advanced as far as Vienna in the 17th (?) century. (They brought us coffee, though, too )

Turkey comes from a completely different cultural background. It's a culture that simply doesn't get along with European cultures, no matter how hard both sides try. For example, equal rights for women are non-existing, maybe by law more or less, but almost never in practice. It doesn't agree with their ancient cultural values.

The bit on the European continent with Istanbul might be different, because it has been connected to European history for a very long time, not to mention the urban civilization in a city anyway.

And then there are their human rights issues as several times mentioned.

Btw: There are naturally red-haired Turks, met several of them. It's an inheritance of the crusaders apparently. But I'm not sure.

And leering and such like at blond or red-haired women is rather mucho macho and probably disrespect for Western tourists. It happened once upon a time in Greece, in Italy or whereever macho-culture was dominant and blondes not an everyday occurence.

I'm against having Turkey in the EU for the time being, not because they are Muslims, but because as a nation they simply don't accept European values, however good or bad these values are. Turkey should look after her own affairs and get her house in order, so to speak, before they leave their mess in the EU.

pickarooney

Where's the option of "they jes' too po'"?

bronte

Been there five times on holiday,
On one occasion I was in a rented car with my family, and we took a drive out the countryside.
We passed a field where we witnessed a group of women ( and children) working hard labour on the land.
One man watched over the group.
We drove on and passed a pub filled with men smoking and drinking.
When we drove back the field we'd originally passed had all the woman hidden beneath a tree while the man who'd been watching over them watched us go by.
Maybe he didn't like that we'd been filming the whole thing on our video camera.


As a blonde young lassie, you can get a lot of over enthusiastic attention from the men
I had a weird experience of this in the airport on my first visit there at 17 but it was reported.
It's a bit weird at first but didn't stop me visiting the country again.


I just thought I'd throw my experiences in to the debate.
All in all, i've met some lovely turkish people, but a few things need to change if they're going to join the EU.

Mahatma coat

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

The EU is a Union for Europeans, Right, Turks are not European, end of discussion.

spooiirt!!

mountainyman wrote:

No chance that the fact that the Turks aren't well integrated in Germany could be something to do with the Germans? They carried out a pretty successful genocide of a very well integrated ethnic minority a little while ago didn't they? Considering that Neo Nazism is on the rise in Germany and they are burning Turkish children to death there if I were a Turk in Germany I'd rather intimidate than assimilate.

MM

ive been living in Germany for 4 years now and I can tell you that nobody is forcing the turks to be scumbags. The turks are disproportionatly criminal, unemployed, school dropouts. Friends of mine have been mugged by turks up to three times. Two years ago a Turk kicked the crap out of the conductress on my train, and when i tried to help loads more of them came. I ran away.

The worst part though is what happens to the young, small german children. They get beaten and their mobiles and money stolen. Cos guess what, german kids dont have 10+ brothers like the muslim kids do.

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

spooiirt!! wrote:

ive been living in Germany for 4 years now and I can tell you that nobody is forcing the turks to be scumbags.

Are you saying all Turks are scumbags?

MM

rollie

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

There are the economic effects too....bringing the turks in would crash their economy that is based on cheap comodities due to cheap wages, wouldnt it?

(i'm not an economist so i could be wrong)

rollie

Franz Ferdinand

What a load of huggy fluffy nonsense from the pro-Turks on this thread!

Secular state? You're having a laugh!
"In parts" perhaps, around the major cities, and in the western coastal areas.
But the vast majority of Turkey is poor, ignorant, and deeply Islamic in nature.

I don't care what 'silver lining theories' you fluffies have - I don't want their problems in my country.

When the Iraq war is over, when Saudi accepts Christian Churches, when there is widespread acceptance of liberty, democracy, freedom of religion and womens rights in Islamic culture worldwide - THEN you can ask if I'd like to have Turkey in the EU. Not before!

Right now Turkey is massing troops on the Kurdish border. Whats in the offing? An invasion? Would this be viewed by the Islamic world as an EU invasion if we were part of it?
You betcha!

STAY AWAY!