Further EU expansion: Turkey

tolosenc

I dunno if this is too political to put here, so mods, please fell free to move it around.

I was having a discussion with mates earlier regards immigrants from the newer Eastern countries in the EU. The conversation quickly moved on to Turkey's potential membership. Personally, I think the country there is of a different mind-set to the rest of us, that and they aren't really in Europe at all.

What think ye?

Zaph

I think you'll find that a lot of people's objection to Turkey joining isn't geographical, but rather their record on human rights.

Kintarō Hattori

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

I'm not too well up on Turkey at the moment, but don't they have a long way to go until their way of thinking comes around to the EU's way of thinking?

sickpuppy

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

A definite no human rights atrocious there in asia not europe, and there predominately muslim with all the ridiculous things that brings too.
I have lived in both Germany and Holland in towns and cities with large Turkish populations and they dont integrate well they as agroup can be very nasty and intimidating dont learn the local language and in general despise the west except of course the jobs and money.
One benefit is they do nice kebabs Europe spent centuries getting them out lets keep it that way.

Zebra3

No. They just don't fit in with the European way.

Voted for the second option. Same reason as Cyprus should never have been let in.

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

sickpuppy wrote:

I have lived in both Germany and Holland in towns and cities with large Turkish populations and they dont integrate well .

No chance that the fact that the Turks aren't well integrated in Germany could be something to do with the Germans? They carried out a pretty successful genocide of a very well integrated ethnic minority a little while ago didn't they? Considering that Neo Nazism is on the rise in Germany and they are burning Turkish children to death there if I were a Turk in Germany I'd rather intimidate than assimilate.

That said given the behaviour of the Turkish security forces in ethnic Kurdish areas (right now) and the strong ultranationalist strain in Turkey I don't think that Turkey can be allowed into the EU. Also I am not certain that it would be that beneficial for the Turks.

As for their having a different mindset from the rest of Europe; I hope that's true for every country variety is the nature of Europe and the reason why we are lucky to be from this continent.

MM

Burning Eclipse

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

The European Union is tied together for the most part by common goals and ideals, many of which are not shared by Turkey. I vote no.

Financial Times wrote:

The prominent role of the army in public life, Ankara's refusal to recognise the Republic of Cyprus and its slow human rights reforms have all harmed its cause.

"Hi, we'd like to be a member of your group, one thing though, we won't recognize one of your other members, it doesn't work for us!"

rollie

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

The last thing Europe needs is another country thats so close to America. We should be supporting our already existing members e.g. Greece, and make them sort out the cypriot situation before we even consider starting talks. With regards to their mindset, from talking to a Turk in Turkey i got the understanding that they supported (now this was only one man but he generalised for his country) the american way of dealing with both domestic and foreign terrorism....i.e., a simplistic veiw of a war, rather then a more spanish and english view, i.e., yes a military intervention is needed but primary socio-economic appeasement approach is essential combined with strict police (and military if necessary) reactions to instances of terrorism and it takes a very long time to change minds.

not sure if that last sentence made any sence, but its monday morning and i have only had one cup o' coffee

rollie

digitally-yours

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

Ireland Land area is 32,591 Square miles Thanks including NI/B] !

Turkey land area is 302,535 Square miles


If Israel can be in EURO Vision than why not

HelterSkelter

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

obl wrote:

Personally, I think the country there is of a different mind-set to the rest of us,

How do you come to that conclusion? Have you ever been there? And I'm talking about being in one of the major cities, Istanbul for example.

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

In fairness Turkey is more than the major cities.

I think by the time the country peters out into Kurdistan you do have a very different mindset (the Yezid for example). But don't we have very different mindsets all over Europe? Don't the Lapps have a very different midset, fundamentalist Irish protestantism 'is a very different mindset'.

I think what Turkey needs is a process of joining or nearly joining the EU. Which would strengthen the Rule of Law and democracy. Look at the Hrant Dink affair. I think that you could have something like that in EU countries like maybe the Baltic states but it is very problematic.

Turkey should also be targeted for protests like Israel is not because human rights abuses in Turkey are worse than its neighbours (Syria, Iran and Iraq) ; but because protests might change the behaviour of state forces in Eastern Turkey/Kurdistan.

Again Turkey needs a process for joining the EU but they are a long way away.

The EU needs a stable Turkey.


MM

Degsy

mountainyman wrote:

No chance that the fact that the Turks aren't well integrated in Germany could be something to do with the Germans? They carried out a pretty successful genocide of a very well integrated ethnic minority a little while ago didn't they? Considering that Neo Nazism is on the rise in Germany and they are burning Turkish children to death there if I were a Turk in Germany I'd rather intimidate than assimilate.

That said given the behaviour of the Turkish security forces in ethnic Kurdish areas (right now) and the strong ultranationalist strain in Turkey I don't think that Turkey can be allowed into the EU. Also I am not certain that it would be that beneficial for the Turks.

As for their having a different mindset from the rest of Europe; I hope that's true for every country variety is the nature of Europe and the reason why we are lucky to be from this continent.

MM

Can you post anything without alluding to the second world war?Its over..germany came second.

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

Stalking much Degsy?

The poster I quoted claimed that Turks aren't integrated in Germany; I just pointed out that they burn Turks in Germany and assimilation isn't worth much there.


Anyway Germany didn't come second they came last.

MM

biko

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

They're as bad as China and US when it comes to human rights.

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

They're nothing like as bad as China. I don't know how you can say the USA is as bad as China.

MM

bill_ashmount

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Where will the EU stop expanding? I assume their ultimate aim is to encompass North Africa and further into the middle east. It's going to cause major tension in the existing European countries, there are already signs of tension in Holland and France over this.

palaver

mountainyman wrote:

The poster I quoted claimed that Turks aren't integrated in Germany; I just pointed out that they burn Turks in Germany and assimilation isn't worth much there.

MM

Where did you get that enlightened insight from? Have you seen all the huge stakes where "they burn Turks"? Jayze, mind your "mind-set"!

Assimilation isn't much worth among the Turkish community in Europe. They stick together, despise Western culture and insist on their medieval Muslim rules. Most of them. The educated ones are different, they integrate easily. They speak the language and engage in local, national and European politics, teach at schools and whatever, without betraying their roots.

Integration always goes both ways, but the majority of the Turks in Germany certainly prefer to bring their little Turkey to Germany and elsewhere. They do not embrace their new home country. A fact that won't change when Turkey, in her current state at least, joins the EU.

And as well you know that a change in politics of a country doesn't change the attitude of their ordinary people.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

An Citeog

No. They just don't fit in with the European way.

mountainyman wrote:

No chance that the fact that the Turks aren't well integrated in Germany could be something to do with the Germans? They carried out a pretty successful genocide of a very well integrated ethnic minority a little while ago didn't they? Considering that Neo Nazism is on the rise in Germany and they are burning Turkish children to death there if I were a Turk in Germany I'd rather intimidate than assimilate. MM

Any links to this burning of Turkish children to death? Define a little while ago too :rolleyes: More than 60 years seems like quite a long time to me.

I don't believe that Turkey should be let into the EU, mainly because of their record on human rights.

Kojak

Based on the Human Right's record, I dont think they should be let into the EU.

Agamemnon

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

mountainyman wrote:

No chance that the fact that the Turks aren't well integrated in Germany could be something to do with the Germans? They carried out a pretty successful genocide of a very well integrated ethnic minority a little while ago didn't they? Considering that Neo Nazism is on the rise in Germany and they are burning Turkish children to death there if I were a Turk in Germany I'd rather intimidate than assimilate.

When I lived in Germany, the one thing that stuck me was the amazing amount of war guilt the Germans still have. People whose parents weren't even born during the war have it. You make it sound like it's still the 1930s over there when nothing could be further from the truth. The actions of a minority of skinheads do not reflect the German people.

We should not forget the Holocaust but you have to get over your obsession with it, mountainyman. Take up a hobby or go for a long walk or something.

billy the squid

Degsy wrote:

Can you post anything without alluding to the second world war?Its over..germany came second.

Actually, they came third, after Japan

Tar.Aldarion

When their human rights match up etc. I don't really care where they geographically are.

scojones

Does it matter what we think? I mean, they're being let in regardless. It's not as if this is a democracy and the people of Ireland were consulted about it. Given some of the opinions on here that is probably best to be honest.

There are some pretty hilarious views in this old article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3683204.stm

Fad

Atari Jaguar.

But they eat their young in turkey!:rolleyes:

Unpossible

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

I just don't see Turkey as being european, I think western Russia has more in common with us than them. I like Sarkozy's idea of having special treaties and having a special relationship with them, but not membership.

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

agamemnon wrote:

We should not forget the Holocaust but you have to get over your obsession with it, mountainyman. Take up a hobby or go for a long walk or something.

If I'm told that Turks in Germany have not integrated (a point that I don't concede btw) I think that it is specious to assume that the problem is all one way. The Germans retain a notion of citizenship based on blood, in other words it is easier for a Volga German whose parents emigrated (if that is not misleading) from Germany (if that is not anachronistic) in the seventeenth century to become a German citizen than it is for a person whose parents are Turkish but who was born in Germany to become a German citizen.

The Germans might claim to feel guilty about the war but their behaviour with regard to trying to obtain property in Poland, the Czech Republic and points east gives that the lie.

MM

jjbrien

No. They just don't fit in with the European way.

mountainyman wrote:

They're nothing like as bad as China. I don't know how you can say the USA is as bad as China.

MM

ohh yes there is a place worse than China. North Korea!!! Turkey should not be allowed into the EU I voted for the second option as only 3% of the country is in Europe. Also thier polcies are far diffrent that the EU's

palaver

mountainyman wrote:

If I'm told that Turks in Germany have not integrated (a point that I don't concede btw) I think that it is specious to assume that the problem is all one way. The Germans retain a notion of citizenship based on blood, in other words it is easier for a Volga German whose parents emigrated (if that is not misleading) from Germany (if that is not anachronistic) in the seventeenth century to become a German citizen than it is for a person whose parents are Turkish but who was born in Germany to become a German citizen.

The Germans might claim to feel guilty about the war but their behaviour with regard to trying to obtain property in Poland, the Czech Republic and points east gives that the lie.

MM

So there is handful of die-hards who want their property back? That's "THE Germans" then? So there are some die-hards in Ireland who still fight the Brits? All Irish people are terrorist then?

The Turks can get German citizenship if they want to. Same procedure as here in Ireland btw. re citizenship. But in Germany you can't have double citizenship, you have to choose which one. The majority of Turks insist on their Turkish citizenship, even when born and bred in Germany and hardly capable to speak Turkish anymore. They don't want to be Germans and insist on their culture, whatever that means. The simply reject western values. So there.

Moutainy, you have to get your facts straight before you spread hearsay prejudices. Or stop watching the endless BBC-documentaries about Nazi-Germany. The Britons are obsessed with Hitler and the Nazis and simply can't let go. Would be too much of an effort to think that the Germans nowadays are modern Europeans - and much more aware of their history than you.

Maybe you should, unlike the Brits, adopt a more highbrow approach to that matter...

gurramok

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

No, they should not join the EU. They are not even geographically in Europe and 3% of land doesn't wash as an argument to join.

Their human rights record is appalling, nevermind the denying of the Armenian genocide, some 12m of their population is Kurdish with very limited rights and restrictions on culture, language etc.

Recently, Turkey is thinking of invading northern Iraq, hardly a country acting democratically!(nevermind the US! )

Turkey belongs to the Middle East club and should form an equivalent EU with its neighbours to foster growth on its economy.

Tiesto

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

mountainyman wrote:

If I'm told that Turks in Germany have not integrated (a point that I don't concede btw) I think that it is specious to assume that the problem is all one way. The Germans retain a notion of citizenship based on blood, in other words it is easier for a Volga German whose parents emigrated (if that is not misleading) from Germany (if that is not anachronistic) in the seventeenth century to become a German citizen than it is for a person whose parents are Turkish but who was born in Germany to become a German citizen.

The Germans might claim to feel guilty about the war but their behaviour with regard to trying to obtain property in Poland, the Czech Republic and points east gives that the lie.

MM

as far as I'm aware, a large amount of the turkish community in Germany hold German passports.. I take it that would qualify as German citizenship?

galwayrush

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Human Rights issues,also they are more suited to the Middle East, not Europe.
Definate No.

Franz Ferdinand

Turkey should NEVER be allowed into the EU.
Plenty of Irish will disagree - especially those who own cheap holiday homes over there hoping to profit from an upswing in values.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Blisterman

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Personally, I don't think they're ready yet, but if they manage to improve their human rights situation, then having a muslim country in the EU could be a step towards improving relations between the middle east and the west.

Parsley

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

billy the squid wrote:

Actually, they came third, after Japan

1. US
2. USSR
3. Japan
4. Germany
5. UK
6. Italy

Not quite sure where to put France....

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

The UK came ahead of Germany and Japan!! The Germans were occupied for 50 years and the Japanese were nuked.

MM

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

While I accept that German citizenship laws were not designed to make things difficult for Turks that was an undeniable effect.

For the Germans it wasn't enough to join into there society; you had to reject your own as well.

Tough Choice.

MM

Agamemnon

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

mountainyman wrote:

The UK came ahead of Germany and Japan!! The Germans were occupied for 50 years and the Japanese were nuked.

Yeah but both of their economies boomed like mushroom clouds afterwards. They lost the war but won the peace.

palaver

mountainyman wrote:

While I accept that German citizenship laws were not designed to make things difficult for Turks that was an undeniable effect.

For the Germans it wasn't enough to join into there society; you had to reject your own as well.

Tough Choice.

MM

What's your problem with the Germans? You seem to insist that they can't be good, there is always something you try to blame them for. You don't know the facts, you don't seem to have any experience in this case, I wonder have you ever been in Germany or Turkey?

Having to choose which passport you prefer (the one of the country you live in or the one of the country you originated) doesn't mean you have to reject one or another. Though a lot of Turks in Western Europe reject the society they live in. They insist on their own laws, like honour killing, that is, killing a girl of their own family to protect some medieval concept of "honour". I'm sure that you would accuse the Germans of suppressing another culture when they prosecute such a murder.

Get real!

mountainyman

Nope, only 3% of their land is in Europe.

palaver wrote:

I'm sure that you would accuse the Germans of suppressing another culture when they prosecute such a murder.

Get real!

My 'problem' with Germany is specific to this discussion and arises from relatively poor integration of the Turkish minority in Germany being used as a reason why they 'have a different mindset', 'aren't in Europe' etc.

I wouldn't accuse the Germans of suppressing another culture when they prosecute honour killers and I ask you to retract that statement. I am familiar with both countries. I speak German and a little Turkish. I am familiar enough with Germany to know that if there are problems with the Turkish minority in Germany it is not all the fault of the Turks.

MM

Reku

Human rights I definitely think should be an issue, more precisely women's rights;
If you're a red haired woman you might as well just give up lie on the ground and spread you legs, if you're blonde you're going to get a lot of hassle too. (their prostitutes mark themselves as such by colouring their hair red, blondes just don't really exist in the country, hence it's the whole thing of being able to say you had one)
Perhaps being brought into the larger stage might make them wisen up a little and leave the caveman behaviour in the past.

palaver

mountainyman wrote:

I am familiar with both countries. I speak German and a little Turkish. I am familiar enough with Germany to know that if there are problems with the Turkish minority in Germany it is not all the fault of the Turks.

MM

How familiar?

For the record: I am German, I used to live in Berlin among one of the biggest Turkish communities outside of Turkey and I worked as a social worker with Turkish youths and their families. My experience with them is first hand.

I do know about the problems, and I do recognize an opinion based solely on "being familiar enough".

Raekwon

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Not yet, and not for a long time either. I don't thing the EU is ready to share a border with Iraq.

I think if the EU want to expand more they should give countries like Albania, Bosnia Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro & Serbia priority over the likes of Turkey. They should also stop trying to brown nose the US and let the existing members of the EU decide who they want to join (although this is wishful thinking).

nesf

galwayrush wrote:

also they are more suited to the Middle East, not Europe.

In fairness, Turkey's very secular approach to Govenment etc isn't exactly in-line with a lot of the Middle East. It'd be closer to the truth to sat that Turkey doesn't really suit either Europe or the Middle East exceptionally well. It's got baggage on both sides.

MooseJam

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

No to Turkey, the evil of Islam must be fought not tolerated

Collie D

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

MooseJam wrote:

No to Turkey, the evil of Islam must be fought not tolerated

I was enjoying a somewhat intelligent discussion before you came along, **** off, idiot

MooseJam

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Collie D wrote:

I was enjoying a somewhat intelligent discussion before you came along, **** off, idiot

well you obviously won't be contributing anything intelligent, just swear words and personal abuse :rolleyes:

Collie D

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Ignoring the idiot above because I don't want him to drag me down to his level. Although hardly personal abuse calling the poster of an idiotic thread an idiot but anyway...


While Turkey's human rights record is below par, they shouldn't be allowed to enter. Until they can prove to the EU that they are treating all citizens equally they should remain on the outside. And I include women as well as Kurds in this.

The Cyprus issue is also something that needs to be looked at. Will Turkish inclusion not polarise the EU (in particular Greece and Cyprus) when the whole aim is to bring us closer together?

As for the issue of them being a Muslim state, this is not true. They have a secular constitution. Only recently thousands of people took to the streets to oppose any watering down of their secularism.

Overall, we should never say never but right now I don't think they're ready.As someone else has already said they could be an example of a successful democracy with Muslim tradition without the extremism. However, at presnt that loks a long way off.

Karoma

Let that 3% in and test the EU Rapid-Response Force's ability to sort out a Civil War.

Collie Banned for personal abuse. We'll discuss this further via PM.

MooseJam: It's debatable whether you have anything worth contributing to any of Boards.ie, but it's clear you have nothing to add to this thread so let me make this clear: Post in this thread again and you will be banned from AH and sub-fora. Post any more of your crap in AH and you will be banned from AH and sub-fora.

Now, let's leave the others to try hold a grown-up discussion.

trout

No. They just don't fit in with the European way.

farohar wrote:

Human rights I definitely think should be an issue, more precisely women's rights;
If you're a red haired woman you might as well just give up lie on the ground and spread you legs, if you're blonde you're going to get a lot of hassle too..

+1 ... My wife has red hair, and both my daughters are very blond. We were in Turkey on holidays several years ago, and I was stunned at the leers and lechery from almost all the Turkish men we saw. After the first two days, we didn't venture into the towns at all and stuck to the holiday homes. We've travelled widely, and never had that kind of experience in any other country.

When I went into the towns on my own, the Turkish people couldn't have been nicer to me ... but my wife & daughters had a completely different experience. Needless to say ... we won't be rushing back.:(