Metro West - Route Chosen

spockety

Option 1 has been chosen..

The one that goes through Clondalkin rather than Lucan, and hugs the M50 more on the north side.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0705/metro.html

January

Route Option 1 seems better than Route Option 2 because at Blanchardstown it branches off into a weird direction...

ciaran76

I wonder will it ever get built.

2014 seems so far away.

Zebra3

Are there existing stations where the MW intersects the Kildare and Maynooth lines or are new stations gonna be built?

ongarite

Very hard to tell but looks like it crosses over Kildare line near Adamstown station and Maynooth line near Coolmine St.
Need a hi-res picture to see for sure.

Edit: for crap spelling!

krinpit

Well, it'll be underground, so I'd doubt they'll bother linking them up with these lines for another couple of decades.

Skyhater

ongarite wrote:

Very hard to tell but looks like it crosses over Kildare line near Adamstown station and Maynooth line near Coolmine St.
Need a hi-res picture to see for sure.
Edit: for crap spelling!

It's going to cross the Maynooth Line at Porterstown. A new DART station is due to be built there.
The real question is if they build two separate stations "close" to each other or one integrated station!!! We all know what the answer should be!!!

krinpit wrote:

Well, it'll be underground, so I'd doubt they'll bother linking them up with these lines for another couple of decades.

It's not going to be underground..... It going to run at Grade with the exception of a few Tunnels and Bridges. It will interact with Traffic at "minor" junctions. Basically it's not a Metro, It's a Luas!!!!!

OTK

RTE.ie wrote:

Metro West is expected to carry 20 million passengers a year and make it possible to travel from Tallaght to the Airport in under an hour.

Under an hour for a journey of 17 miles which the AA says takes 20 minutes to complete.

loyatemu

the important thing is - will it go near IKEA?

daymobrew

adrieanne__x wrote:

Route Option 1 seems better than Route Option 2 because at Blanchardstown it branches off into a weird direction...

One route trashes Verona FC football pitches beside the Fingal County Council offices at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre. It then serves the mad busy :rolleyes: NAC.
The other route serves the Institute of Technology Blanchardstown and the nearby corporate parks (including eBay) and then passes Abbotstown, which could be used by NAC users.

As the announcement only explicitly mentions the Clondalkin/Lucan segment, I'll keep my fingers cross that the ITB route will be chosen over the NAC one.

murphaph

Indeed it seems a shame to miss out serving ITB seeing as ITT and DCU will be served by metro.

Random

Is it planned to be underground going into and out of the Blanch SC? With all the chaos that is the traffic around there it's hard to see how they can get a Luas ni and out successfully overground unless they're billing it up over the road?

Victor

Low quality
http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=226
http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/July%205th%202007%20-%20Metro%20West%20Press%20Release.pdf

High quality
http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=227
http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/July%202007%20-%20Dublin%20Metro%20West%20Emerging%20Preferred%20Route%20Corridor.pdf

Uuuh Patsy

Victor wrote:

Low quality
http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=226
http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/July%205th%202007%20-%20Metro%20West%20Press%20Release.pdf

High quality
http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=227
http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/July%202007%20-%20Dublin%20Metro%20West%20Emerging%20Preferred%20Route%20Corridor.pdf

There are 2 hopes of that being finished by 2014. 7years. The Luas extension to Citywest has been in planning for a couple of years and still wont be open until 2010. At least 5 years from proposal. And that completely paid for privately. If its done by 2020 it will be a miracle. (They actually changed the signs for the Citywest Luas AFTER the election from planned completion 2008 to 2010.. They have a neck like a jockeys bollo*)

Nevyn

daymobrew wrote:

The other route serves the Institute of Technology Blanchardstown and the nearby corporate parks (including eBay) and then passes Abbotstown, which could be used by NAC users.

That route makes the most sense but really that could the reason why they choose the other one.

Hal1

Once they move it as far away from the village as possible the traffic flow shouldn't increase. :mad:

bringitdown

RTE wrote:

Metro West is being hailed as the rail equivalent of the M50.

LOL (no need to point out the obvious)

spockety

loyatemu wrote:

the important thing is - will it go near IKEA?

From the looks of it, not as near as Metro North will.

whosedaddy?

now here is a stupid post - where exactly is IKEA going to be? <ducks before getting slapped with a wet trout>

spockety

IKEA will be here.. in the centre of this map. Basically west of the ballymun road where it meets the M50.

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.407242,-6.269352&spn=0.005142,0.012853&z=17&om=1

seamus

bringitdown wrote:

LOL (no need to point out the obvious)

Indeed. It'll probably come to halt just after the Liffey Valley stop and wait for all of the passengers to pay an extra €2.

spacetweek

ongarite wrote:

Very hard to tell but looks like it crosses over Kildare line near Adamstown station and Maynooth line near Coolmine St.
Need a hi-res picture to see for sure.

Edit: for crap spelling!

It crosses the Kildare line at the future Fonthill Road station which is part of the Kildare Route Project. It's Coolmine Road not street!

Who said MW was underground?? Even if it was full metro (which it isn't) it still wouldn't need to be. Much of its route will run through countryside or along major distributor roads with infrequent cross streets.

There's a few issues I have with its route. Is it going to take the diversions into Clondalkin vill and Liffey Valley carpark? And how are they going to get it into these, will it be elevated? LV is difficult because if you head east to get into it from Fonthill Road, you then have to do a U-turn to get back west for Porterstown. And I agree that it should take the Blanch IT option up at the northern end, not running past the Aquatic centre. Unless they plan on developing that big landbank there alongside the M50 next to it. In general I think the green Option 2 is better up the north, it also runs along Harristown Lane alonside the airport which is better than Option 1 which uselessly hugs the M50 where no one has pedestrian access to the route. So I'd go Option 1 as far as Porterstown and Option 2 after that.

What does everyone think of the disconnect at the Square? There's about a 500m walk between the Luas and the start of MW? As the maths teacher said, Integration, Integration, Integration!

Also maybe this is scaremongering but there are certain sections where it might need to be protected (e.g. elevated) due to the possibility of vandalism or other anti-social behaviour. Burned out cars are still a common enough sight in Ronanstown (area immediately south of LV).

When they say 2014 they mean the date for the final Blanch-Ballyer section. According to T21 phase one, Tallaght-Clondalkin, was supposed to open in 2010. This seems very optimistic for a new unproven system (yes, I know it's the same as Luas basically, but for operational purposes it's a new system.) Agreed that the whole lot will probably take longer.

antoinolachtnai

What exactly is the point of this route? Who exactly is it supposed to serve? The only point I can see is to drive development along the northern part of the corridor. It's a pretty slow way to get from Tallaght to anywhere. It looks like lip-service public transport to me. The people living in these areas would be better with fast and direct bus routes to the city centre, airport and major suburban centres.

Victor

Has anyone noticed how windy it is? I suspect these lads had an input.

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=9442&lang=ENG&loc=2126

Dempsey Announces Selected Route for Metro West
5 July 2007

* To accommodate in excess of 20 million passengers per year
* Under 30 minutes from Blanchardstown to Dublin Airport
* Under 60 minutes from Tallaght to Dublin Airport
* Trains every 4 to 5 minutes at peak hours

Noel Dempsey TD, Minister for Transport and Maritime Affairs today (Thursday 5th July 2007) announced the next phase in the development of a Metro system for Dublin under the Government's Transport 21 investment programme. This new 25km route, known as Metro West, will operate from Tallaght through Clondalkin, Liffey Valley and Blanchardstown linking with Metro North at Metropark, south of Dublin Airport.

Following a detailed public consultation exercise which involved the consideration of two possible route options, the Board of the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) chose the Metro West route being announced today.

Speaking today Minister Dempsey said: "West Dublin has seen some of the most intense growth in housing and other development in recent times with all of the challenges that this brings. Metro West will facilitate the residents of West Dublin and it will accommodate in excess of 20 million passengers per yearthus removing a considerable volume of car journeys from the road network. It will be a modern, attractive and highly accessible transit system for Dublin commuters to enjoy.Park and Ride sites at strategic locations such as Blanchardstown, Huntstown and Liffey Valley, in addition to existing Park and Ride at Luas and Metro North will facilitate car drivers from beyond the Metro West catchment area to transfer to public transport."

Metro West will run on the surface and the tracks will be separate from road traffic. It will cross road junctions in a similar manner to Luas, although bridges will be required at major roads, railways and other crossings. It will have up to 20 stops for passengers who want to make the journey between Tallaght East and Metropark, south of Dublin Airport. Among the stops under consideration are: Tallaght East, Belgard, St. Brigid's, Clondalkin, Fonthill, Rowlagh, Liffey Valley, Porterstown, Millennium Park, Blanchardstown, National Aquatic Centre, Abbotstown, Huntstown, Meakstown, Silloge, Harristown, and Metropark, where it will join with Metro North.

Construction of Metro West is due to be completed in 2014, subject to the successful obtaining of a Railway Order (i.e. Planning permission) from An Bord Pleanála. It is estimated that construction of Metro West will take up to five years.

Minister Dempsey concluded: "Metro West can act as a catalyst for urban and suburban regeneration similar to the experience on Luas. Investment will be attracted into the areas served by the Metro and the potential will open up for the development of new commercial and service facilities along its route."

Map of Metro West attached below:

spacetweek

Victor wrote:

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=9442&lang=ENG&loc=2126

Phasing? Date for breaking ground? I'd have liked more info. They say it'll take 5 years to build - I wonder if they're still going with the phasing given when T21 was announced. Also I note that according to the map, they're going to close the gap with Luas red line at the Square. That's good.

Anto, I assure you that QBCs, though they're definitely part of the solution, would not be enough for west Dublin. For starters, we need lots more Liffey crossings. There's the Lucan bridge, the M50, and that's it. I used to get a Dualway coach from Blanch Centre to Liffey Valley and the journey time at peak was 90 mins. This is because without using the M50, a journey across the Liffey at this point still involves long trips down windy lanes. Thankfully I only did it for a month.

I certainly don't think it's lip-service public transport, it would be faster than driving in many cases, and faster than the existing bus services in all cases.

antoinolachtnai

So build some bridges. Why not do this? Money is obviously not an issue.

Capt'n Midnight

what is the point of building it along the M50, off peak it's slower and goes to the same areas.

Is it to get people out of their cars, if so don't forget that the people who use the M50 don't necessarily live within 2Km of it. A more original route might be appropiate, since you could put buses on the M50 tomorrow ( if you had buses and drivers ) It won't free up traffic heading to the M50 from further afield.

You could have it run along the M50 using existing grade separations and land and park n' ride. Just have it detour to the populated areas every junction. Save a whole bunch of money and planning permission hassles.

antoinolachtnai

Yup, I think I described a plan for this before. Would cost about EUR 100m by my reckoning, between civils and vehicles. Just buses wouldn't be enough to make it work. [edit: what i meant by this was the cost of running a prioritized bus service along the m50]

One justification for Metro could be to increase density along the route. I can't see how this would work though. It just wouldn't be a strong enough counterbalance to somewhere like Swords, or Glasnevin, or even Maynooth post-Interconnector, where there would be much faster access to the city and airport.

I do agree that West Dublin badly needs more public transport, and rail should be part of that. But this just doesn't look right.

Really, we would have to see the numbers on this to understand the rationale. Are there any numbers published?

monument

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

what is the point of building it along the M50, off peak it's slower and goes to the same areas.

Peak time, not off peak matters for a good bulk of people.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

since you could put buses on the M50 tomorrow ( if you had buses and drivers )

Add more buses to the car and truck parking lot that is the M50???

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You could have it run along the M50 using existing grade separations and land and park n' ride. Just have it detour to the populated areas every junction. Save a whole bunch of money and planning permission hassles.

And that'll work with the already planned and under construction works at the M50?

Victor

There is a less than serious (but pointed) thread on Metro West here.

Prof_V

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Really, we would have to see the numbers on this to understand the rationale. Are there any numbers published?

Well, the emerging preferred route is 25km and a figure of "up to" 20 million passengers per annum, probably for 2016 has been quoted (apparently for the better of the previous alternative alignments). Million passengers per route-km per annum is a reasonable quick-and-dirty metric for how heavily used an urban railway is; in this case, it comes out at 0.8, which is reasonable - it compares to 0.88 for the Red Line and 1.38 on the Green Line last year, and it comfortably exceeds the present figures for nearly all US light rail systems, and all British ones outside London - some of those would be considered quite successful, and pretty much all are exclusively city-centre-focused. (Incidentally, the Green Line comes out as busier than some US full metros on this criterion).

There are also the DTO figures from A Platform for Change; these are for 2016 and assume an alignment very similar to the RPA's emerging preferred route. They indicate peak-hour directional passenger flows of up to 13,000 (even the lowest-demand section between Blanch and the airport has nearly 8,000 in the busier direction) but they're an overestimate of what can actually be expected in 2016 because they assume things like Metro from the city centre to Tallaght, and demand management on the M50, that won't happen by then. However, they do show Metro West to perform respectably compared to several other parts of the network.

Of course, none of this can fully answer the question of prioritisation, but they're nevertheless helpful to some degree.

jimmycrackcorm

Where does this desire to move the population of Tallaght to the airport come from? Is someone trying to give the poor Tallaghteans a hint?

Capt'n Midnight

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Where does this desire to move the population of Tallaght to the airport come from? Is someone trying to give the poor Tallaghteans a hint?

yes it's a Tallaght Ban.

Goes through lots of other lower rent areas too

Metrobest

antoinolachtnai wrote:

What exactly is the point of this route? Who exactly is it supposed to serve? The only point I can see is to drive development along the northern part of the corridor. It's a pretty slow way to get from Tallaght to anywhere. It looks like lip-service public transport to me. The people living in these areas would be better with fast and direct bus routes to the city centre, airport and major suburban centres.

I agree with you, speed is crucial and if MetW is slower than a comparative journey along the M50, people are just not going to give up their cars, and who can blame them?

Tallaght would be best served by a metro to the city centre, via Templeogue, Terenure, Rathgar and Rathmines, bringing high quality transport to areas of the city that have the population density to justify it.

OTK

Yes, Templeogue, Terenure, Rathgar, Crumlin, Coolock, Finglas, Beaumont, Artane are not getting rail transport while the focus is on more sprawl.

daymobrew

I asked the RPA to explain why the NAC route was chosen over the ITB route. They sent me this thorough reply.
I was a bit disappointed to see cost being a factor to reduce the usefulness of the route.

RPA wrote:

RPA appraised the various route options for Metro West under the following headings: Economy, Costs/Funding, Safety, Integration, Accessibility and Social Inclusion, Environment, Constructability and Public and Stakeholder support.

Combinations of routes were also considered (e.g. Route 1 to Porterstown
and Route 2 to Airport etc.)

RPA considered many submissions received during the public consultation process and in all in excess of 850 formal submission were received. The majority of submissions favoured route option 1 in both the Fingal and South Dublin Area.

The route that emerged has been a mix of the rotes initiallyproposed.
Although primarily Route Option 1 it uses a sub-option through Clondalkin and a Hybrid of the 2 routes south of Dublin Airport.

Route 1 in the Fingal Area emerged as the strongest under the appraisal criteria for many reasons that can be summarised as the following:

It was the shortest and thus quickest less costly
It served Blanchardstown Centre more directly
It serves Blanchardstown Village, James Connolly Memorial Hospital and the expanding sports campus area at Abbottstown
It is easier to construct and integrates more effectively with the planning objectives of the local authority

A number of other considerations were also considered. It was recognised that ITB was an attractive area to serve, however an appropriate stop location on Route 1 would place ITB within walking distance, which is generally acceptable for able-bodied students. This was offset against greater access to James Connolly Memorial Hospital. Additionally there was no discernable difference in catchments between the two routes.

The industrial lands at Ballycoolin and Blanchardstown whilst closer to Route Option 1 would for the most part still be somewhat remote, particularly since much of the new development is likely to occur to the West and North West. This would likely mean that the industrial lands would most likely require some bus connection to Metro West (even on Route 2). This bus connection can operate in any event to Abbottstown and could also serve Tyrrellstown en route to Metro.

The preferred route for Metro West indicates a route running through playing pitches at Verona Football Club. RPA is now beginning consultation based on design for this route and is investigating options for the alignment that might avoid impact on these playing pitches. RPA will be exploring these options in more detail with the relevant stakeholders over the coming weeks.

bogmanfan

To be honest, this really pisses me off. Lucan, for quite some time was the fastest growing suburb in Europe. We still have no rail transport line. The Railway station at Adamstown is useless for Lucan because the traffic to get to the station is so bad. This will be the same, as you will have to drive from Lucan to Liffey Valley or Clondalkin in order to get it. Why couldn't they have diverted it by a few km to stop at the Penny Hill and Lucan Village?

Zebra3

Because there is plans for a Luas for Lucan.

Skyhater

Zebra3 wrote:

Because there is plans for a Luas for Lucan.

LUAS, this bloody word is starting to wreck my head!!!!!!!!
Some people see Luas as the answer to all Dublin traffic problems. It's not. The RPA are being allowed to put these relatively low capacity Trams everywhere. Lucan needs a higher capacity alternative (Heavy Rail link preferably).
Just look at the Red Luas Line. Just imagine the difference if this was a proper heavy rail line. Less Crowding, and more cars off the roads!!!! Sure it would have cost loads more €€€€€, but worth it!!!

Metro west is a ridiculous project. It's just a slow Luas, which (for some reason) has been given higher priority than it deserves!!!

paulm17781

Skyhater wrote:

LUAS, this bloody word is starting to wreck my head!!!!!!!! <snip>

I agree with everything you said. The Luas is fine but it is just a low cost solution DART (I know what springs to mind but...) or other heavy rail is what Dublin needs. Not overcrowded trams everywhere.

I believe Lucan luas will join up with the red line somewhere in the city, this is only going to make things worse on the red line.

Skyhater

paulm17781 wrote:

I believe Lucan luas will join up with the red line somewhere in the city, this is only going to make things worse on the red line.

I though the Lucan Luas has it's own alignment in the city centre (coming down Dame St into college green)????

Anyway, don't want to stray too much off topic!!

paulm17781

Skyhater wrote:

I though the Lucan Luas has it's own alignment in the city centre (coming down Dame St into college green)????

I can see the hill on Dame st., outside City hall being an issue.

Luas and Metro west are both prime examples of the "Ah sure it'll do" attitude. :mad:

dowlingm

If Metro west served Clonsilla rather than Porterstown it would offer 1-change to Maynooth, An Lar and Dunboyne/Navan. Pity, but I guess there's too much development to find a route now.

As for Lucan, in the short term BRT shuttle to Adamstown and Clonsilla would provide excellent connectivity to Dublin and points west and south. All you'd have to do is bulldoze a right of way through those golf courses to the north. I'm not a total killjoy - it could be cut and cover - but how would the rules of golf deal with ventilation grill?

daymobrew

dowlingm wrote:

If Metro west served Clonsilla rather than Porterstown it would offer 1-change to Maynooth, An Lar and Dunboyne/Navan. Pity, but I guess there's too much development to find a route now.

There will be a new heavy rail station at Porterstown (under the bridge that goes over the canal and train line). That will offer 1-change to Maynooth/city/Dunboyne, right?

murphaph

daymobrew wrote:

There will be a new heavy rail station at Porterstown (under the bridge that goes over the canal and train line). That will offer 1-change to Maynooth/city/Dunboyne, right?

Depends on IE. I remember reading that Dunboyne or Navan or both trains won't stop at Porterstown. Could all change of course. Porterstown will be a handy place to live next to.

Victor

I imagine the alternative stopping is based on the current regime of not enough rolling stock, level crossings affecting journey times, etc. Things will change with electrification, new bridges, etc.