HD/Blu-Ray... Is blu-ray going to win?

copacetic

The Denouncer wrote:

Practically no visible difference between 1080i and 1080p.
http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/1106gear/

he does have a massive proviso in there that he is only talking about movies due to the film to HD conversion.

There is a major difference between 1080i and 1080p when viewing sport for instance.

projectmayhem

Pride Fighter wrote:

I think HD-DVD will win. It has a better name and with HD-TV you will get some people thinking Bluray wont work on them.

actually a marketing guy told me stores are supporting blu-ray because there's no confusion. once people get to grips with the idea of "high def movies", they'll be fine. "HD-DVD" as a name is too close to "HD-TV" and so on, and is to much of a mouthful.

he told me people don't go to power city etc. for "HD-TVs", hey say "Bravias" (whether or not they want a sony bravia or not) because it's too many technical letter type things.

Duggy747

Honestly, I think it's still too early to say. Fúck all people have HD TV's so far and even a lot of the ones that do don't even have the HDMI connection set up (My local pub is one example) The whole HD thing has really yet to kick off. I think if Sky keep pushing the HD service eventually people will start picking it up. I do actually find it amazing how little people know what HD really is and think it's some sort of a gimmick ( I've given up trying to tell them otherwise)

I suppose it'll be down to whoever gets the best exlcusives will gain an upper hand (and Sony do have deep pockets)

Snake Plisken

Yeah the problem is most of your general publin don't really care about HD, they like the flat panels as they take up less room and they buy whatever the sales people tell them to buy, Sky pushing their hd service will help and I read today that ITV & bbc will launch full HD freeview via satellite from spring of next year that will help in the UK and a lesser extent here.
The problem with HD-DVD titles here is that Xtravison aren't renting them so that gives a massive leg up for Blu-Ray, both formats have their positives and negatives, but I'm not sure this is going to be as clear cut as Betamax vs VHS this time.

Snake

GeorgeBailey

Personally I don't expect to use either format. I've got a collection of about 200 dvds and to be honest I'm running out of space to store them. So I've converted everything to divx and from now on I don't intend buying many actual physical discs.
I'm happy with the quality of divx and also I'm not big into extra features.
I'm sure others will be different.

Pride Fighter

projectmayhem wrote:

actually a marketing guy told me stores are supporting blu-ray because there's no confusion. once people get to grips with the idea of "high def movies", they'll be fine. "HD-DVD" as a name is too close to "HD-TV" and so on, and is to much of a mouthful.

he told me people don't go to power city etc. for "HD-TVs", hey say "Bravias" (whether or not they want a sony bravia or not) because it's too many technical letter type things.

Thats interesting. The various words people use to associate with technological devices. Bluray and Betamax both begin with a b, coincidence or something more sinister:) , I joke.

Snake Plisken

Yeah wouldn't listen to marketing people, was he working for Sony. samsung or Xtravison?

Snake

copacetic

Even the thieves seem to know BluRay is the one!

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/25/thieves-choose-blu-ray-over-hd-dvd-in-mass-disc-heist/

The high definition format war took an unexpected twist Sunday morning, when a group of thieves broke into a video store. What they took -- every Blu-ray movie in stock -- isn't as interesting as what they left behind. The gang ignored the HD DVD selection entirely, apparently deciding that only the BDA's baby was worth a five finger discount. Blockbuster choosing Blu-ray for its nationwide rollout is one thing, but being ignored when the price of acquisition is the low low price of free is a reality check for any fledgling standard. We suppose such early morning escapades are one way to build your library after getting the now lower-priced PS3, but it's not recommended. No word yet on if HD DVD fans are planning a coordinated group theft to reestablish the popularity of their chosen format.

miju

personally i think both blu-ray and HD DVDs are huglely overpriced. but with that said I'm hoping this format war continues for quite some time cos I dont know if any of you guys have noticed but normal DVDs are getting incredibly cheap to buy, my collection has been growing threefold recently

projectmayhem

Snake Plisken wrote:

Yeah wouldn't listen to marketing people, was he working for Sony. samsung or Xtravison?

Snake

independent advisor for power city

The Denouncer

Looks like Blu-Ray is winning in Europe anyway, go to HMV and its 75% Blu-Ray, or of course Xtravision have the PS3 bias so its all Blu-Ray..I'm waiting for Pioneer to produce a good Blu-Ray player before I set foot in that market..I have a 720p capable plasma and have no intention of upgrading to a 1080p jobby, as from the distance I sit I'd need a screen over 50" to see the difference going by numerous expert reports, and 720p seems to be the HD broadcast standard at the moment.

Theboinkmaster

I honestly think nobody will win and both HD/Blu-ray will become the new Laserdisk, with a new format emerging in 2/3 years taking the best of both and being supported unilaterally.

The jump from VHS to DVD was absolutely massive (picture, sound quality, slim packaging and extra content) however the jump from DVD to these new standards isn't that great (for an average joe). That, combined with these huge companies completely fracturing the market consumers won't bother upgrading to either due to confusion and fear of chosen format to be the next betamax.

I have over 400 DVDs and for the moment I'm happy with a great sony 46" lcd, denon upscaling DVD player and DTS sound system, all connected via HDMI - there's no way in hell I'm going to start upgrading them all.

I promise you in 2/3 years both these formats will be like laserdisk was in the 90s, I'm happy with what I have at the moment for now :cool:

The Denouncer

No I think Blu Ray will take over HMV and the like, we will be happy to keep our 400 standard definition DVDs - well maybe replace 5% of them but from now on purchase blu ray. I think blu ray will be so pushed and show a higher quality of sound and vision that we would be mad not to embrace it, especially since almost every flat screen now is HD ready.

The Denouncer

By the way a few important differences between Blu-Ray situation and laserdisc situation:

1. Laserdiscs required the purchasing of brand new equipment to play specialised discs. You can play you old DVDs on a Blu ray player, and it upscales them.

2. People are getting into the home cinema groove like never before, and with a PS3 in their house, they'll more than likely feed it some blu.

3. As I said most people will have a HD or HD ready screen of some kind, and what with SKY etc. pushing HD broadcasts, people will get used to seeing a HD image and want more.

So I predict Blu Ray will take off in 2008 in a major way

Another retailer, Target, has also dropped HD DVD in the states. The HD version of The Matrix is also coming to Blu Ray- wasn't that a big HD DVD exclusive:D

savemejebus

Just read that there are 4.5 million ps3s sold (not shipped, sold). That's 4.5 million Blu Ray players in homes. A nice start in anyones book when you consider Toshiba were forecasting global sales of 1.8million by the end of the year.

The news about the matrix coming to blu ray is good for blu ray, however you can't forget that HD-DVD has Heroes and the remastered star trek coming exclusively.

Lost is also coming to blu ray, someone mentioned a while back that this was HD DVD exclusive as well. Not anymore.

copacetic

also understand that bluray will support pron after all, which a few people mentioned above as a major weak point for it..

Theboinkmaster

The Denouncer wrote:

By the way a few important differences between Blu-Ray situation and laserdisc situation:

1. Laserdiscs required the purchasing of brand new equipment to play specialised discs. You can play you old DVDs on a Blu ray player, and it upscales them.

2. People are getting into the home cinema groove like never before, and with a PS3 in their house, they'll more than likely feed it some blu.

3. As I said most people will have a HD or HD ready screen of some kind, and what with SKY etc. pushing HD broadcasts, people will get used to seeing a HD image and want more.

So I predict Blu Ray will take off in 2008 in a major way

1 - very true
2 - yes but as someone else mentioned people are buying flat screens due to the way they look, the average consumer is not buying HD DVD players or HD DVDs (99% buying the ps3 are doing so for games not HD movies)
3 - very true

The question I ask is is the average consumer going to upgrade their DVD collection?

No way - when I was younger I collected films on VHS and now on DVD. Most people I know have fairly decent DVD collections and I know for a fact that if showed them an upscaled DVD -vs- a blu ray image and ask would it be worth re-buying 300/400 films they'd say abolsutely not. For HD movies to take off the studios need to offer alot more.

At the moment some films are bare-bones releases or have the same extras as the DVD - this isn't enough for the average joe. I looked on play and most HD movies are €28?! For that price to come down like DVD has consumers need to jump on board which I do not think they will.

It will take years for HD TV to become mainstream and when it does yeah there will be a demand for HD movies but I firmly believe by then there will be a 3rd format, taking the best features of both HD DVD and blu-ray.

IMHO both formats lost the 'war' before it even began

Theboinkmaster

_CreeD_ wrote:

It's like watching SACD vs. DVD-Audio all over again. Both excellent formats that really pushed the quality envelope. An eager market that got tired of waiting to see which would be the victor and we ended up with the MP3/IPOD generation instead, a devolution in sound quality at least partly due to inept marketing and mutually destructive competition.
DVD worked because all of the major vendors signed on before it was released. It was adopted so quickly as the market was assured there wouldn't be a format war of any kind, and this held true. Now the exact same companies are ignoring that one blaring lesson.
People will hold off investing deliberately in HD/Blu Ray and then the vendors will say the lack of releases or progress to a unified standard/affordable multi-format player is down to the market not being ready....Muppets.

100% agree

The Denouncer

The SACD vs DVD-Audio issue was pretty much a different thing entirely.

1) SACD and DVD-Audio were not readily available in the shops, only online. Blu-Ray is already for rental in Xtravision, for retail in Xtravision and HMV, and of course also online.

2) The set up for SACD and DVD-Audio was more complicated for most people. 6 analog phono outputs into a receiver. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD can be played down a single HDMI cable.

3) Even people who had a DVD player capable of playing SACD or DVD-Audio may never have heard the quality as they may not have had the receiver that accepted the 6 channels. A lot of people are only now upgrading from CRT to either LCD or Plasma which are both HD ready, and some are also buying PS3s. Hooking them up via HDMI is a given.

4) People are more willing to shell out for improvements in video. That's why DVD took off. On the other hand the same people are willing to compress audio to listen on iPods. So why would these people invest in SACD and DVD-Audio? Even Argos now has HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players for sale, but more importantly a huge range of 1080p capable LCDs.

Its looking very likely that Blu-Ray is taking off in the shops even in these early days, and it will be more like the Betamax/VHS situation. There will be a winner, I doubt very much there will be 2 losers.

Theboinkmaster

Good points denouncer - it does look like if there will be a winner it'll be blu-ray

I'm happy with my current setup and we'll see what happens.

Am I right in saying people won't really have to replace their collections of older movies as as they were'nt filmed in hi-def there's nothing to improve on? Blu ray and HD DVD are really only useful for modern films? I may be wrong but say a film like star wars - if you took the dvd and played it in an upscaler and on a decent screen, would a blu-ray version look much different since the original print cannot be improved any further?

The Denouncer

Star Wars is a good case in point - apparently its going to come out on Blu-Ray..it would be in that 5% of my 450 DVDs I'd be willing to re-buy. Not only will Georges wizards work wonders with the picture but I'm sure the HD sound will be mind-blowing. Like you I'm happy with my current set-up and in my case I have a 4 year old plasma with component inputs, which gives a fantastic SD picture as is. But progress is progress, If I can fairly cheaply upgrade to a blu-ray player which not only plays HD discs through component, but upscales my existing DVDs and even apparently improves CDs - then I'll upgrade. The sound is a different matter. If I need to buy a new receiver/amp with HDMI it'll be a bit trickier, but if the Blu-Ray player comes with a built in decoder and delivers analog HD sound to a high standard, then it'll be better again.

Mossy Monk

Theboinkmaster wrote:

Am I right in saying people won't really have to replace their collections of older movies as as they were'nt filmed in hi-def there's nothing to improve on? Blu ray and HD DVD are really only useful for modern films? I may be wrong but say a film like star wars - if you took the dvd and played it in an upscaler and on a decent screen, would a blu-ray version look much different since the original print cannot be improved any further?

Wrong all over the place.

flogen

Excuse me for dragging this thread up again, but there's an interesting survey mentioned on Kotaku today which has major bearing (IMO) on the format wars:

http://kotaku.com/gaming/how-do-i-hd/most-ps3-xbox-360-owners-unaware-of-hd-features-287579.php

only 30% of Xbox 360 owners are clued in to the device's high definition graphics, compared to 50% of PS3 owners. Of the 50% knowledgeable of the PS3's graphics prowess, only 40% of them were aware the machine's Blu-ray playback capabilities. Only half of that particular group has watched a BRD on the device.

So that means that less than 1/8 (if my maths are correct - they might not be) of the PS3's userbase has used the machine as a BRD - if that's representative in any way it really shows just how much the inclusion of PS3 sales figures in the overall BR HW sales skews reality.

That still means that around 0.5m PS3s could be counted as BRDs and still puts them ahead but it certainly highlights the spinning Sony and co. are doing when they use the PS3 as bona fide BR sales.

As far as I'm concerned, specifically because of the PS3, software sales is the figure to watch - I think BR are winning in that too but in a more realistic fashion.

(there aren't any figures for the 360's HDDVD drive - I bet it works out around the same - half being aware of it, about a quarter of those actually owning one)

flogen

flogen wrote:

Excuse me for dragging this thread up again, but there's an interesting survey mentioned on Kotaku today which has major bearing (IMO) on the format wars:



So that means that less than 1/8 (if my maths are correct - they might not be) of the PS3's userbase has used the machine as a BRD - if that's representative in any way it really shows just how much the inclusion of PS3 sales figures in the overall BR HW sales skews reality.

That still means that around 0.5m PS3s could be counted as BRDs and still puts them ahead but it certainly highlights the spinning Sony and co. are doing when they use the PS3 as bona fide BR sales.

As far as I'm concerned, specifically because of the PS3, software sales is the figure to watch - I think BR are winning in that too but in a more realistic fashion.

(there aren't any figures for the 360's HDDVD drive - I bet it works out around the same - half being aware of it, about a quarter of those actually owning one)

Blu ray sales are doing well these days:
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=390

Snake Plisken

Well I went for both formats with my PS3 & upgrading from the Xbox addon drive to a Tosh E-1 HD-DVD player, HD-DVD still has the lead with regards to features, 300 is a perfect example, it has this excellent feature where you can watch the blue screen version of the movie with commentary from the director, this is not available on the BF version, I would hope that a studio like Warner will issue discs with both the HD & BD version on either side.
I have over 600 DVD's and actually don't buy SD stuff anymore, on average I'm now buying about 3 to 4 HD discs a month. Then again I'm into my tech and love my movies, which I suppose i'm in the minority of the general population.
I just hope both formats can co-exist.

Snake

savemejebus

probably a bit off topic, but why would you want to watch the movie with a blue background instead of the digital background?

BKtje

Only half of that particular group has watched a BRD on the device.

Just cos only some have actually watched a BRD on the device doesnt mean that it wasn't a factor when they bought it.

Also where did the figures come from for this report?
It is interesting none the less but only because it confirms what many people already believe. That people don't properly research what they are buying.

BKtje

Only half of that particular group has watched a BRD on the device.

Just cos only some have actually watched a BRD on the device doesnt mean that it wasn't a factor when they bought it.

Also where did the figures come from for this report?
It is interesting none the less but only because it confirms what many people already believe. That people don't properly research what they are buying.