Barred from a pub unjustly

arybvtcw0eolkf

Ok, regards UK licencing laws.

Most information I can find is in PDF format and I can't 'cut & paste' it in here.

Here's what I found.

Under their licencing law's 1964 pubs and clubs must give twenty minutes drink up time. This information must be published and posted behind the bar.

But if a bar/club calls time twenty minutes before last order's are served either by sounding a bell or clearly calling "Last order's" then they can insist on you leaving the premises on closing time without giving anymore 'grace'.

So if the OP can show that neither a bell or shouted warning was given twenty minutes before closing the club are clearly in the wrong.

Although it would be easier to go talk to the manager and explain his circumstances.

Del2005

Mairt wrote:

Ok, regards UK licencing laws.

Most information I can find is in PDF format and I can't 'cut & paste' it in here.

Here's what I found.

Under their licencing law's 1964 pubs and clubs must give twenty minutes drink up time. This information must be published and posted behind the bar.

But if a bar/club calls time twenty minutes before last order's are served either by sounding a bell or clearly calling "Last order's" then they can insist on you leaving the premises on closing time without giving anymore 'grace'.

So if the OP can show that neither a bell or shouted warning was given twenty minutes before closing the club are clearly in the wrong.

Although it would be easier to go talk to the manager and explain his circumstances.

Did the UK not change their laws recently and also AFAIK N.I has different laws again.

As for getting kicked out just after buying a drink, that happens the world over. It's up to you to know the rules. I'm sure the bouncer hears the same story off every person every night of the week and is sick of it. You where stopping him doing his job and causing hassle. Why couldn't you just neck the drink and walk out?
Also going to the manager isn't going to do any good. He may un-bar you but whats to stop all the bouncers stopping you going in saying your drunk.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Del2005 wrote:

Did the UK not change their laws recently and also AFAIK N.I has different laws again.

As for getting kicked out just after buying a drink, that happens the world over. It's up to you to know the rules. I'm sure the bouncer hears the same story off every person every night of the week and is sick of it. You where stopping him doing his job and causing hassle. Why couldn't you just neck the drink and walk out?
Also going to the manager isn't going to do any good. He may un-bar you but whats to stop all the bouncers stopping you going in saying your drunk.

You may very well be right regarding the laws changing. I'm in work at the moment and limited as to the time I can google UK laws.

As for the rest, I couldn't agree with you more. Nothing like common sense, but the OP is standing on a matter of principle.

If it was me I'd go talk to the manager, apologise for any inconvenience caused to the staff and accept his decision. Or else I'd give it awhile before going back, because you can bet with an attitude like that the bouncer won't be working there too long. Most guys like that get moved along pretty quickly.

Btw DRAGAN if your heading to UFC-72 this Saturday, best of luck and you'd better neck those pints of Harp they all love up there!. I won't be travelling myself as I'm fighthing this Saturday in Dublin. Enjoy UFC-72 if you go.

Dragan

Mairt wrote:

Btw DRAGAN if your heading to UFC-72 this Saturday, best of luck and you'd better neck those pints of Harp they all love up there!. I won't be travelling myself as I'm fighthing this Saturday in Dublin. Enjoy UFC-72 if you go.

Sadly i'm not travellin up. I'm saving my pennies to hit up a stronger card later in the year. I really want to see certain people fight and am willing to wait for that chance.

What are you fighting in and where? Best of luck dude!

Fratton Fred

you won't get anywhere googling "UK Law", thee is no such thing. You have the laws of England and Wales, Scottish Law and Northern Iirish law. All very different. In England the pubs, subject to licensing restrictions, are entitled to open 24 hours a day, but need a licence to do this.

When I lived there (It may have changed) the law stated that a period of ten minutes drinking up time is allowed following "Time", this may be extended at the discretion of the landlord to 20 minutes. Generally this is fairly flexible but as in Ireland, bouncers can be a law to themselves. "Last Orders" is usually rung ten minutes before time to advise customers the bar is closing.

You do need to remember, that you do not have a right to enter a Public House, so the bouncers can throw you out for whatever reason they like and refuse entry if they are pig headed enough.

Bouncers in England (In certain parts anyway) need a licence, which includes handling aggression, first aid and identifying possible drugs use. Civil Liberties and human rights are, I belive, not part of the course:rolleyes:

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dragan wrote:

What are you fighting in and where? Best of luck dude!

Nothing much, just a small Judo thingy. Shouldn't be a problem, I'm feeling strong & fit. Plus I'm pretty chilled this week, light training, some swimming and watching lots of Judo on Youtube.

Jigsaw

copacetic wrote:

agreed, first couple of times its happened I've been shocked but it is pretty standard practise to serve right up until closing. Then move people out straight away.

To the OP, they asked you to leave after closing and by the sounds of it you refused and took your time finishing your drink. They barred you because you were causing them to break the law and were likely to do the same again. They were damn right imo..

I can't agree with this. I am not going to separate bouncer and bar as such. If an establishment is willing to sell me a product for consumption on their premises, they should surely give me a reasonable opportunity to do so. Admittedly not all night of course. Now I can take my beer pretty well and did down it after the argument in question, but I was irritated at being served something and then immediately being told to set it down and leave.

I know that bouncers in general probably get a lot of eejits trying it on at the end of the night, but I cannot stress enough, I am not one of these people.

Copacetic, fair enough if you think that but at no point did I refuse to leave nor did I take my time finishing my pint. I was hounded out of the place literally three minutes after having bought a pint of guinness and simply asked why I couldn't be given a few minutes to finish my pint in peace as I had literally just bought it. I asked this in a calm and collected manner. It was only my third and final pint so I was not p1ssed. Yet the reaction of the bouncers was like I had insulted their mother or something, completely disproportionate. They were looking for an fight and when they didn't get one from me and instead got someone with a brain, able to speak sensibly and ask a reasonable question they just went into default mode of aggresssion. There were also other people in the bar who were in the bar who were not being asked to leave but as they enjoy "local celebrity" status it seems they were exempt from the rules that were applied so rigidly to me.

bbbbb

Hmmm, if it was you're local, just round the corner from your appartment, I would have expected you to know already about the short drinking up time. Or was this a once off or your first time there?

I reckon the bouncer(s) took you for a hot head, for what ever reason, that's why you were surrounded immediately. Being asked to apologise at the door the next time was a test of this. The fact that you weren't willing to eat a little humble pie and say sorry will have made the bouncer think he was right.

copacetic

Jigsaw wrote:

I can't agree with this. I am not going to separate bouncer and bar as such. If an establishment is willing to sell me a product for consumption on their premises, they should surely give me a reasonable opportunity to do so. Admittedly not all night of course. Now I can take my beer pretty well and did down it after the argument in question, but I was irritated at being served something and then immediately being told to set it down and leave.

I know that bouncers in general probably get a lot of eejits trying it on at the end of the night, but I cannot stress enough, I am not one of these people.

Copacetic, fair enough if you think that but at no point did I refuse to leave nor did I take my time finishing my pint. I was hounded out of the place literally three minutes after having bought a pint of guinness and simply asked why I couldn't be given a few minutes to finish my pint in peace as I had literally just bought it. I asked this in a calm and collected manner. It was only my third and final pint so I was not p1ssed. Yet the reaction of the bouncers was like I had insulted their mother or something, completely disproportionate. They were looking for an fight and when they didn't get one from me and instead got someone with a brain, able to speak sensibly and ask a reasonable question they just went into default mode of aggresssion. There were also other people in the bar who were in the bar who were not being asked to leave but as they enjoy "local celebrity" status it seems they were exempt from the rules that were applied so rigidly to me.

well apologies for implying you took your time. if it was 3 minutes that is pretty damn quick. when you said

Anyway, I eventually downed my pint

I assumed this had been a fair while later!

bronte

Wow, didn't know they practised that in the uk, usually i find they're reasonable enough as long as you don't take the piss.
Some places in town can be really pushy though.
Mairt, you must have worked in the same nightclub I did in leixlip!!
Fun times!

arybvtcw0eolkf

bronte wrote:

Wow, didn't know they practised that in the uk, usually i find they're reasonable enough as long as you don't take the piss.
Some places in town can be really pushy though.
Mairt, you must have worked in the same nightclub I did in leixlip!!
Fun times!

Probably. I worked in the old 'Rock-a-fellas' before the O-Zone opened and Highway 66. I never worked in the Hitcher.

Fun times indeed, Leixlip was by far and away the most violent place I've ever worked. And when I worked there the local garda station closed at 11:30pm!!!!. After that it was survival of the fittest.

Oh, but the local skirt Leixlip girls rocked, and you probably had my sloppy seconds

Jigsaw

bbbbb wrote:

Hmmm, if it was you're local, just round the corner from your appartment, I would have expected you to know already about the short drinking up time. Or was this a once off or your first time there?

I reckon the bouncer(s) took you for a hot head, for what ever reason, that's why you were surrounded immediately. Being asked to apologise at the door the next time was a test of this. The fact that you weren't willing to eat a little humble pie and say sorry will have made the bouncer think he was right.

The bar in question was my local and I had been there loads of times. I knew they were pretty quick with clearing out, but prior to this they had always been reasonable, as had I, precisely because it was my local.

There is no way that they considered me a hothead because I inquired about the situation whilst sitting down and in a very non-confrontational way. In fact on several occasions throughout the conversation I asked them calmly not to be so aggressive towards me as I was simply asking a question.

The reason that I did not apologise is because I stood by my principles. I don't believe I did anything wrong and was not prepared to apologise because to do so would let him feel that he can get away with it and have people come back crawling to him and I just cannot do that. At no point did I raise my voice or be aggressive, I simply asked was it fair that a pint be served at 11:57pm and that I be hunted out the door at 12:03am, and I did so in a rational manner. At the end of the day, is that a justifiable reason to bar someone? If I started a fight or called one of the bar staff a cnut or something, then fair enough. I just think to be indefinitely barred for what I did is unreasonable.

As for the whole asking for an apology thing, surely that is immaterial to being barred. I would have thought that if you did something wrong, then you did something wrong and would have to take the punishment like a man. It's hard to describe unless you were there but take it from me, the bouncer was simply asking for an apology in front of his bouncer mates to score some petty victory. I can draw attention once again to my so called offence. I mean, ffs, to get barred for that, especially since I had been there so often and had been a regular, well behaved customer. Just don't think it is on.

I may have to suffer for abiding by my principles but I point blank refuse to apologise for asking what appears to me to be a perfectly reasonable question.

seamus

Mairt - from my experience of drinking in London, the law you quote is pretty much what they all do - they ring the bell around 15 minutes before last orders, but will continue to serve right up to the end. Five minutes afterwards, you're out on your ear, whether you had drank your pint or not.

In Ireland they call last orders 5-10 minutes beforehand, and there's a rush to the bar to stock up. Then everyone takes the next hour to finish their drinks.

It's a minor culture shock for us Irish, as in our heads "Last orders" means "You're not going to get any more drink", not "It's almost time to leave".

I simply asked was it fair that a pint be served at 11:57pm and that I be hunted out the door at 12:03am

Well, yeah. They didn't force you to buy a pint. You knew that the bar was almost closed, I assume you knew the law, and you made the decision to buy the pint.

The rest of us weren't there, and have no idea how drunk you were or weren't. Often people have no idea the next day how they came across, they simply assume that it was as they remembered it. If you'd had a few pints on you, you ma well have been more stubborn, brash and forceful than you would normally be, so as Dragan alludes to, the bouncer was simply sick of putting up with ****.
If you don't apologise to him, then that's an indicator to him that you don't care, and he'll just have to keep throwing you out the same way again and again.

Oriel

Why don't you actually talk to the management, instead of whinging about it here?
Let us know how you get on.

Jigsaw

Oriel wrote:

Why don't you actually talk to the management, instead of whinging about it here?
Let us know how you get on.

Just not had a chance yet with work and things. I can't go down after work because they have the door staff usually on already by that point so it's not worth the hassle.

I'll hopefully get the chance to pop down at lunch time today. I personally don't think it will do any good. I reckon the manager will just close ranks even though he will recognise me as a good customer. He would probably rather lose a customer when the alternative is to potentially undermine the bouncer's authority (that being the case in his eyes, not mine). I'll let you all know how I got on!

Caliden

Learn how to apologise without actually meaning it. I'm sure your principles are important to you but it seems that this pub is important to you too.

You don't even need to be sincere, just let it go and apologise.

Oriel

Phone in advance and make sure there is somebody there to talk to.
All you are looking is to be unbarred, not an apology.

Steve_o

Oriel wrote:

Phone in advance and make sure there is somebody there to talk to.
All you are looking is to be unbarred, not an apology.

Agreed....why apologise if the bouncer was bein a d**khead, there's no excuse for ignorance!....also some places contract out the bouncers from security companies so the manager might ask you to contact the security company if thats the way they do it!!!

bronte

Heya Mairt, yup ozone it was!
Interesting you thought it was fairly rough, I've seen a bit of that from living there alright.
Saw quite a bit of fighting at the festival this year.
I used to work as bar staff there.
As for sloppy seconds, i'm actually a girl ..good to hear you approve of the leixlip lasses

Jigsaw

Hey there,

Thought I'd just post back here to let y'all know how out things worked out.

So I went to the bar in question last night. Mates of mine were already in and they were also in the night I was barred so they knew the bouncers in question. They confirmed to me that they were all different bouncers last night. So I wandered over and headed up to the bar and ordered a pint from one of the bar men who know me the best there. He noted that I hadn't been around recently and I told him why. He instantly removed my bar and said that the bouncers' behaviour had been entirely unacceptable and that this was not the first time it had happened either. He advised me to make a formal complaint to the manager, which I did earlier today. He apologised to me for the fact that I had been treated unjustly and said that he would speak to the bouncer in question.

So I can walk in now quite freely and have not had to apologise (not that there was anything to apologise for). Glad I stuck to my principles

tallaght01

well done mate. Glad to hear it worked out well for ya.

MooseJam

theres lots of pubs go to another one, sure you're great and they don't deserve you

Wossack

I presume you only went back to drop off a top decker?

Plissken1

I don't know if it is within the Law but it has always been like that in the UK, there is no drinking up time, your out the door, if you give lip your out the door on your head.

One of the funniest things ive seen in Dublin was in Temple Bar a few years back, at Christmas. This guy was plastered drunk and the bouncers were throwing him out, one of the bouncers was a complete asshole, he helped your man to the door, then threw his jacket out onto the street, when the guy went to pick it up the bouncer pushed him over on top of the jacket. The poor guy, he got up put on his jackt brushed himself down, turned around and decked the doorman with one punch, then laid into the other doorman who had been laughing at him. The guy ended up getting arrested, and the blond haired twat if a bouncer was sporting a shiner for the rest of the night. we couldnt stop laughing, but it was his own fault, if he had just let the guy leave.


I goty barred from a pub in Dublin, I asked for a vodka and redbull, the barman was already in bad form, and he said "can't you see we don't have ****ing redbull" (pointing to the LONG drinks shelf behind him). Of course I told him what I thought of him which included just about every swear you can think of, He seemed to be shocked by this and backed away (obviously the abuse is only allowed to handed out in a bar not taken) . but the manager heard everything and told me i was barred. I just laughed and left the pub, I had never been in there before anyway so I didnt give a toss. I noticed though that the bouncer wasnt too pushed about it, maybe he was used to the barmen being abusive.

As for Leixlip, its still nuts. If you love a good row, just hang around outside the nightclub at 3 am and you wont be disappointed, all the local scobies kick lumps out of each other there, if you like girl fights its a good spot too. If you are not into any of this stay away.

Zzippy

Glad it worked out for you Jigsaw They can be pretty strict on drinking up time in the UK, but never heard of it being as ridiculous as that!

I think I have the silliest excuse ever for being barred - was drinking in the Dame Tavern in Dublin after leaving an exam early knowing I had failed (not in a good mood obviously :rolleyes: ). Went to the jacks and there was no toilet roll, so strolled across the street, into the Kings Head, did my business, and came back to the lads.
Cue barman from Kings Head following me across to the Dame, abusing me for having a dump in his pub, then telling me I was barred. :rolleyes:
It was actually quite funny as I'd never drank in the place in my life

I had a funny experience with a bouncer at a night-club in Galway. I had been drinking with some old work friends. Didn't consume much, perhaps 2 drinks. Despite the fact I didn't want to go near a club (I would have been working at 8 the following morning), I agreed to go. We joined the queue of this club when the bouncer glanced at me, came to the conclusion that I had been too drunk and told me to leave. When I started to smile he backed away like I was going to throw a punch and pulled the barrier open, telling me to go quickly.

All a bit OTT, I thought, as I showed no signs of causing harm.

On a similar note, when entering another club the bouncer asked me:-

"Are you drunk?"
"Nope"
"Are you high on drugs?"
"Nope"
"Are you an angry man?"
"Nope"
... and other assorted random questions.

stovelid

Mossy Monk wrote:

They can sell drink up until closing time. Not their fault that someone buys drink a few minutes before closing time.

S'true Jigsaw unfortunately.

Is the general closing time still 130?

I've been caught out in Belfast myself because of this in the past.