Broadstone to re-open

GerardKeating

Cannot find a link to it, but there was an article in this mornings Irish Independant that suggested that Irish Rail are planning to re-open the old Broadstone Railway station next year...

icdg

Something similar in last nights Evening Herald, but it would not reopen next year. Rather, I believe they are possibly planning to use it as the permanent terminus for the proposed Meath Commuter service after Docklands Station closes when the interconnector is built (and is replaced by the underground Spencer Dock Station). That would place its potential reopening somewhere around 2015.

Its a bit far from the city centre though (although nearer than Heuston).

Victor

Maybe be Broadstone Bus Depot?

January

Victor wrote:

Maybe be Broadstone Bus Depot?

In the Evening Herald last night it said that it already was a bus depot. People were calling for it to be made into a transport museum but IE want to reopen it as a train station.

murphaph

If (big if) Navan is reopened and services run into Docklands then it'll be next to impossible to close it. Any government of the day will have to come up with another solution.

ManAboutCouch

The Herald article has been posted on a thread over on ArchiSeek, there are some photographs of the station linked on the thread there too.

See here

Skyhater

murphaph wrote:

If (big if) Navan is reopened and services run into Docklands then it'll be next to impossible to close it. Any government of the day will have to come up with another solution.

They have to close it.... it's in the planning permission!!!

If all goes to plan and there's no political interference, the interconnector will be build, increasing cross-city capacity and allowing Navan Trains into Connolly/Pearce.

Just one thing the indo missed.... the broadstone alignment is earmarked for the Liffey Junction Luas!

aliveandkicking

This is nothing but a turf war between the RPA and CIE. The Broadstone alignment is reserved for a Luas line in T21. CIE are simply marking their territory now by feeding a few stories to the media stating they want to reopen it as a heavy rail line. It's the transport equivalent of a dog pi*sing on a tree.

Victor

Skyhater wrote:

They have to close it.... it's in the planning permission!!!

They just have to apply for PP again.

gobdaw

Skyhater wrote:

They have to close it.... it's in the planning permission!!!

Permission to retain??

Skyhater

Victor wrote:

They just have to apply for PP again.

Well, I for one will be objection to any retention of the station.
If the current docklands station stays, there will be no interconnector, and we all know what that means!!!

Transport21 Fan

aliveandkicking wrote:

This is nothing but a turf war between the RPA and CIE. The Broadstone alignment is reserved for a Luas line in T21. CIE are simply marking their territory now by feeding a few stories to the media stating they want to reopen it as a heavy rail line. It's the transport equivalent of a dog pi*sing on a tree.

That's it hook, line and sinker. Although engineers have done a survey of the route from Liffey Junction, but it may mean nothing in the end.

There is a feeling out there that CIE got terribly short-changed with the redevelopment of the Dublin Docklands and they do not want this to happen with Liffey Junction.

The title of this article should really read. "BATTLE FOR LIFFEY JUNCTION PUBLIC TRANSPORT ACCESS HAS STARTED"

Personally I think the Broadstone alignment as a light rail route would be a waste. I would love to see heavy rail use it again and the Finglas Luas route stop outside on it's way to serve Finglas via Doyle's Corner.

This is only the start of the saga...this is going to run and run and run.

D'Peoples Voice

Skyhater wrote:

They have to close it.... it's in the planning permission!!!

Errr yes, just spend a minute thinking about the TEMPORARY car park built on the lawn outside the Dail, and there's your answer!

gobdaw

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Personally I think the Broadstone alignment as a light rail route would be a waste. I would love to see heavy rail use it again and the Finglas Luas route stop outside on it's way to serve Finglas via Doyle's Corner.

There's virtue in that idea. Didn't the old P11 website have an interesting proposal for Luas from Parnell Sq via Western Way, old canal bed/lineal park, Cross Guns Bridge and Finglas Road onwards, allowing the value added from Luas to be gained by Mountjoy development?

Extending Luas from Liffey Junction to finglas will require "cut'n'slash" through either Clarmont or Glasnevin Ind Estate to gain Finglas Road.

Slice

What's wrong with Green line Luas terminating at a re-opened Broadstone in much the same way the Red line terminates at Connolly? If the Maynooth line is upgraded to Dart and a suburban line built to Navan then Navan trains will need to terminate somewhere.

Regardless of the interconnector proceeding or not Docklands Station should be retained for flexibility and I'm sure CIE will apply to do exactly that when the current planning permission elapses.

Arguing that it should go because it may jeopardise the chances of the interconnector is the same type of short-sightedness that saw Broadstone being closed in the first place. If the intention exists to ditch the interconnector then this will be done with or without Docklands station.

MarkoP11

gobdaw wrote:

There's virtue in that idea. Didn't the old P11 website have an interesting proposal for Luas from Parnell Sq via Western Way, old canal bed/lineal park, Cross Guns Bridge and Finglas Road onwards, allowing the value added from Luas to be gained by Mountjoy development?

Nope that was luas for north Dublin Ballymun etc

Green line is to run from Liffey Junc to O'Connell Street, it is to serve the new DIT campus at Grangegorman

Long term plan is to extend luas from Liffey Junction to Finglas (junction with Metro West in fact)

Skyhater

Slice wrote:

Regardless of the interconnector proceeding or not Docklands Station should be retained for flexibility and I'm sure CIE will apply to do exactly that when the current planning permission elapses.

Arguing that it should go because it may jeopardise the chances of the interconnector is the same type of short-sightedness that saw Broadstone being closed in the first place. If the intention exists to ditch the interconnector then this will be done with or without Docklands station.

But the new Underground Spencer dock station will just be a 100m south of the Docklands station. If the Interconnector is build there will be no need for the Docklands station!!!

(I actually can't believe we are even contemplating the Interconnector not being build.... it it was any other country it would already be in place.)

murphaph

MarkoP11 wrote:

Nope that was luas for north Dublin Ballymun etc

I think Gobdaw was refering to my own idea that I posted on the old p11 forum about using the linear park, Cross Gunns and out the Finglas road, leaving the broadstone alignment free for future heavy rail use.

Transport21 Fan

murphaph wrote:

I think Gobdaw was refering to my own idea that I posted on the old p11 forum about using the linear park, Cross Gunns and out the Finglas road, leaving the broadstone alignment free for future heavy rail use.

After the loss of Harcourt Street, no more heavy rail lines should be sacrificed for anything less than metro. It would be a serious retrograde step. I am a huge fan of Luas, but it should not be built on the Broadstone route.

I am delighted that CIE have nailed their colours to the mast on this one. I can't see a Luas on Broadstone now and good thing too - the linear park would be much better for light rail. The Luas and Broadstone can connect there and then go their own ways.

The Broadstone area is going to explode in population and commercial density in the next few years anyways. I must say I am facinated by the way CIE is using their lands to expanded the central area of Dublin city. It's hardly ever mentioned, but CIE are rebuilding the city around their lands.

Skyhater

Transport21 Fan wrote:

After the loss of Harcourt Street, no more heavy rail lines should be sacrificed for anything less than metro. It would be a serious retrograde step. I am a huge fan of Luas, but it should not be built on the Broadstone route.

The problem now is (thanks in part to the RPA) that the word "Metro" now doesn't mean Heavy Rail. Look at Metro West... It's a Luas Line, with platforms long enough to allow for extended "Trams" in the future!!!!

Victor

The building in this picture, is built on the site of what was a non-descript but infamous residence - the closest bungalow to O'Connell Bridge.

http://www.archiseek.com/content/attachment.php?attachmentid=4710&stc=1&d=1177620608

Navan Junction

Transport21 Fan wrote:

no more heavy rail lines should be sacrificed for anything less than metro. It would be a serious retrograde step. I am a huge fan of Luas, but it should not be built on the Broadstone route.

Agreed. Docklands station didn't deliver for Navan, and IÉ's renewed interest in Broadstone may well keep the possability of reopening the Navan link alive.

Broadstone is the last heavy rail alignment into the city and shouldn't be luasified, especially as a light railway route is relatively easy to create (the old canal) compared to the difficulties of creating a heavy rail route.

Personally, I would prefer being left off at Constitution Hill with a Luas on the doorstep than being dumped a few hundred metres away from a Luas on Sheriff Street.

This is a massive boost for the Navan campaign, and the great thing is that IÉ are serious about it.

Victor

Of course, the heavy rail line could be putting the heavy rail in the cutting and Luas over head (it would need to cross three roads, but in the scheme of things, thats not many).

Transport21 Fan

According to a bloke I met in a pub in Phisborough one night after a Bohs match where we beat Rovers, I was told (so it's probably bollox) that underneath Broadstone station forecourt behind the wall were the statue of the virgin mary now stands is a walled-up canal dock with old barges entombed inside it.

Even when I sobered up a few days later, I found this to be an amazing concept. A good idea for a horror story. Mutant bargemen cross breed with trapped fish to come to the surface as night and drive buses around the city to collect victims.

Probably turn out like the "Dublin Airport underground metro station" urban legend of a few years back.

Victor

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=8999&lang=ENG&loc=2128

Timetable for linking Luas Lines and reactivating the Broadstone line to Liffey junction


5 April 2007
To ask the Minister for Transport the time-scale under Transport 21 for implementing the LUAS line to Broadstone and reactivating the Broadstone line to Liffey junction.

- Seán Crowe.

* For WRITTEN answer on Thursday, 5th April, 2007.

Ref No: 13557/07

To ask the Minister for Transport when he expects the first passenger service on the joined up red and green LUAS lines in Dublin City Centre; if passengers will be able to travel between Heuston Station and St.Stephen's Green and vice-versa without changing trams; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

- Ciarán Cuffe.

* For WRITTEN answer on Thursday, 5th April, 2007.

Ref No: 13617/07

Answered by the Minister for Transport

(Martin Cullen)

REPLY

I propose to answer Question Nos 365 and 366 together.

I refer the Deputies to my reply on Tuesday last, 3 April 2007, to Dail Question No's. 143 and 101 (answered together):-

"The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) began a public consultation on five potential routes, A to E, for connecting the two existing Luas lines in November 2005. During public consultation a new option, F, was identified.

Options A and F emerged as the better options and RPA launched a second phase of public consultation in January 2007 involving an open-day, display days, newspaper notices and distribution of newsletters focusing on the selection of the best of these two route options.

I also understand that the RPA engaged in dialogue with Dublin City Council, Dublin Bus and the Dublin Transportation Office in relation to the implications of the potential routes for bus services and other road users. Arising from these discussions, Dublin City Council and the Dublin Transportation Office recommended that a traffic management plan for the city centre be initiated, to facilitate light rail, bus and metro development. Dublin City Council will undertake the necessary traffic modelling and is committed to delivery of early results from this work, by Autumn of this year.

The Board of the RPA recently decided that their preferred route option for the cross-city Luas line is option F. The RPA now plan to commence detailed design work on the project based on this option. This will take account of the results of the City Council's traffic modelling results as they become available. Following completion of this design work, and subject to a satisfactory outcome to the city centre traffic management planning work, the RPA will submit a Railway Order application to An Bord Pleanala. The construction timescale will be dependent on the outcome of this statutory approval process.

A second stage of this project will extend the line to Liffey Junction via Grangegorman and Broadstone. The selection of an emerging preferred route for the cross-city link will facilitate the commencement of work on the route selection for the onward extension to Liffey Junction.

Subject to an enforceable Railway Order, the scheduled completion date for the overall project is 2012.

It is untrue to say that funding has not been provided for the linking of the Luas lines in the 2007 Estimates.

My Department has allocated €173m towards the advancement of all Luas and Metro projects, including funding for the continuing planning and design work on the cross-city link."

Regarding travel between Heuston Station and St. Stephen's Green, I understand from the Railway Procurement Agency that while the operating pattern on the Luas system has yet to be finally determined, it is not currently envisaged that Luas services will operate between Heuston and St. Stephens Green without interchange.

However, the Deputy will be aware that Transport 21 also includes funding for a Rail Interconnector which will connect the existing DART lines on the eastern side of the City to the lines running out from Heuston Station. New stations will be constructed at Docklands, St. Stephen's Green and High St. and these will link with Pearse and Heuston Station. When the Interconnector is in place, passengers wishing to travel from Heuston Station to St. Stephen's Green and vice versa will be able to do so without changing trains.

The Interconnecter project is due for completion by 2015.

lord lucan

Transport21 Fan wrote:

According to a bloke I met in a pub in Phisborough one night after a Bohs match where we beat Rovers, I was told (so it's probably bollox) that underneath Broadstone station forecourt behind the wall were the statue of the virgin mary now stands is a walled-up canal dock with old barges entombed inside it.

Even when I sobered up a few days later, I found this to be an amazing concept. A good idea for a horror story. Mutant bargemen cross breed with trapped fish to come to the surface as night and drive buses around the city to collect victims.

Probably turn out like the "Dublin Airport underground metro station" urban legend of a few years back.

a spur of the royal canal did once run across the front of what is now the broadstone. my nana lives just behind the kings inn and she used to bring us up that way a lot as kids. across the road from the broadstone was a pond that was known locally as "the basin",i've no idea if its still there but apparently it was the remains of the old canal spur so there could be something in that story albeit embellished over the years.

murphaph

Blessignton St Basin is still there alright.Is that the one?

lord lucan

might be of interest;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadstone
http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/northcity/blessington_street/blessington_basin.html

Navan Junction

The MGWR bought out the canal company and built the station and the Mullingar line along the canal.

The basin was in front of the station, roughly where the block of flats stands.

The photo Victor post above is where a bridge ran across the main road and over towards Blessington Street.

The abuttments still stand on the Broadstone side - be grand if they knocked that garage and the houses blocking the view of the station

Navan Junction

murphaph wrote:

Blessignton St Basin is still there alright.Is that the one?

No..

spacetweek

Here is a summary of the pros and cons of using the old canal linear park instead of the Broadstone alignment.

Pros
Frees up Broadstone alignment for heavy rail
Goldenbridge stretch of Red Line luas shows that linear parks are very suitable for Luas
More easterly - makes it easier to continue line to Finglas
Can access the N2 for a straight run as far as the M50 (on stilts?)
Closer to main roads

Cons
You lose the linear park
Too far from Grangegorman
No firm plan to put heavy rail on Broadstone alignment
Difficult to get line over the canal and across Whitworth road to join the N2
Construction is more disruptive as the Broadstone alignment could be built on without hassle
Less grade separation


I think probably the biggest deal is the fact that the linear park route is too far from Grangegorman.
Blessington St basin is here.

Navan Junction

Navan Junction wrote:

The photo Victor posted above is where a bridge ran across the main road and over towards Blessington Street.

I wonder if the Luas was run up to the front of Broadstone, could a new bridge be put in place similar to the old one, crossing Phibsboro road from Broadstone towards Blesington Street basin?

No disruption of traffic, and the Luas could run up to Broadstones forecourt.

BTW, in relation to the versatility of Luas, I think this photo says it all..

Or this

Winters

Navan Junction wrote:

No..

Blessington Street Basin still exists and it is at the end of Blessington Street.

I think that the linear park is very suitable but is rather a dead end at the canal as another poster pointed out. I would also anticipate local unease at its loss.

The idea of having heavy rail on the old alignment and LRT on top carries merit. There would be 3 at grade crossings at which 2 LRT stops could be located. The route into Finglas from Liffey Junction would be slightly easier that from say Mountjoy. Would require demolition and construction of three bridges though.

Regardless of all this I still don't understand why IE don't push for a station behind the Porter House North on the site of the old Glasnevin station.

Navan Junction

Winters wrote:

Blessington Street Basin still exists

Yes but the canal went all the way to the front of Broadstone station, which where T21 Fan is talking about as far as I know.. It was filled in after the station opened

Winters

Navan Junction wrote:

Yes but the canal went all the way to the front of Broadstone station, which where T21 Fan is talking about as far as I know.. It was filled in after the station opened

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the Blessington Street Basin.

Broadstone_1920.JPG

The attached drawing would indicate that the old basin was filled in sometime around 1879 then. Interesting stuff.

Navan Junction

Would it not be possible to run the Luas along the Canal to Liffey Junction from Cross Guns bridge?

I have always felt that running the Luas under the North circular Road using the Canal bridge and alignment would be more useful than using the Broadstone alignment as the population on the Broadstone alignment really only picks up at at Cabra.

You are going to see mountjoy prison redeveloped soon, so you would have that massive site and the Mater on one side, and Phibsboro village on the other.

I can't see people rushing up to the North Circular road or the Navan road to take the Luas if it were on the Broadstone alignment as that would entail moving away from the city centre to use it

Winters

The RPA shall argue that the Mater metro north stop shall cater for patrons within that area.

Ideally a station at Porter House north as I pointed out would do as much.

The Broadstone route, I imagine, would be straighter and thus faster out to the N2 and Finglas.

Isnt there a Library blocking the canal bed at the NSR or is it to one side? I cant remember.

There is always the possibility of running on-street straight up through Phibsborough, it is a tram after all..

Victor

Winters wrote:

There is always the possibility of running on-street straight up through Phibsborough, it is a tram after all..

The streets are tight enough and over-subscribed there already.

The library is just north of the NCR on the old canal branch, there is also some sort of light industrial building behind it also. Much as the library is a nice building, replacing it would be relatively cheap.

One could also do a cut-and-cover job and keep most of the park. Much cheaper and less disruption than an under-road cut-and-cover.

spacetweek

Victor wrote:

The streets are tight enough and over-subscribed there already.

The library is just north of the NCR on the old canal branch, there is also some sort of light industrial building behind it also. Much as the library is a nice building, replacing it would be relatively cheap.

One could also do a cut-and-cover job and keep most of the park. Much cheaper and less disruption than an under-road cut-and-cover.

What about the fact that such a route wouldn't go close to Grangegorman as I highlighted above?

Navan Junction

spacetweek wrote:

What about the fact that such a route wouldn't go close to Grangegorman as I highlighted above?

Why wouldn't it?

If the Luas runs to Broadstone and then follows the old canal alignment, it will be serving Grangegorman..

Grangegorman and Broadstone back on to each other

Victor

Well, Connolly Station also serves Broadstone (but not as well).

spacetweek

Navan Junction wrote:

Why wouldn't it?

If the Luas runs to Broadstone and then follows the old canal alignment, it will be serving Grangegorman..

Grangegorman and Broadstone back on to each other

Using the canal route it would not come closer to Grangegorman road than 450 metres as far as I can see. See my map.

Broadstone is the only alignment which gets you reasonably close to Grangegorman.

highdef

Just saw this over at IRN.....Information was posted there be user Kildare Commuter:

"From Sat IT

Broadstone station to reopen 70 years on

Tim O'Brien

Iarnród Éireann is to reopen Broadstone station in Dublin to passenger traffic some 70 years after services to the north inner-city station ceased.

The company said new tracks will be laid between Broadstone and Liffey Junction, a distance of 2.5km, where the route will connect with the Maynooth line.

Iarnród Éireann said the line could be open by 2010 in tandem with the reopening of the Clonsilla-Dunboyne phase of the Navan rail line.

Commuter services using the station will originate in Kildare, Maynooth and on the Northern Line.

The company also sees the station facilitating the development of services from Athlone, via Mullingar to Broadstone. Currently trains from Athlone serve Heuston Station via Portarlington, Co Laois.

The work will also involve new electronic signalling and the building of new ticket offices and passenger facilities. The total cost of the project is estimated at €35 million.

It is planned that Bus Éireann - which has its headquarters in the original, listed station buildings - will remain in place.

The decision to reopen Broadstone as a passenger terminus follows growth of up to 20 per cent in passenger numbers on some Dublin routes over the last year. It also follows the opening of the new Docklands Station, which is already catering for 1,000 commuters at morning peak times.

The reopening is expected to cater for up to 5,000 commuters per hour in each direction on the basis of a 15-minute frequency of commuter trains.

Iarnród Éireann notes Broadstone would have a wide catchment area in the city itself and points out that a Luas line is to be extended to the station by 2012.
© 2007 The Irish Times":rolleyes:

MarkoP11

Surprised Tim O'Brien fell for this. Ken Griffen in the Sunday Tribune called the DoT and guess what

a spokeswoman for the department said that it would not approve CIE's scheme

http://forum.platform11.org/showpost.php?p=20975&postcount=1

Given the Department of Transport turned them down hard to see how this will happen.

I'd be very interested to see how you can run Northern line and Kildare line trains from Broadstone...

highdef

I found that rather amusing too.....what are the northern line trains going to do.....arrive in Connolly and the go back the other way down the Newcommen curve??? and then switch direction again at Broombridge???

lol