Argies v Ireland (2nd Test Sat 8pm)

DonJose

OMG that was embarrassing.

Diamondmaker

Marshy wrote:

I thought they both had a nightmare tonight :eek:

Not a mare IMO, but really who else?

Trimble, Murphy and Duffy??Probably

Carney and Kearney, maybe.......No one else is in the reckoning for any back line reserve spots.......?

I think Carneys relative exerience and Kearneys versatility will get them a spot, not to mention his ability to slot in with the exisiting backs.
Based on the 2 games who else?

Looks like Duffy and Trimble for reserve centre.

B Murphy is a long long way off and Bowe too.

Laslo

Yes, they were an embarrassing joke but at least very few (if any) of them will be playing come WC time. If there's one positive we can take out of it, it's that our forwards weren't bullied around the pitch. The backs were shocking. Geordan Murphy demonstrated why he's best left in Leicester. He obviously doesn't want to play for Ireland. Overall, a shocking performance and we're in big trouble when our experienced guys slow down and need replacing.

If Argentina ever want to make it into a tournament (Tri or 6 Nations) then they would want to control their scumbag fans. Otherwise they'll be relegated to mediocrity as a team without any chance of competing at the highest level bar every 4 years at the WC.

I suspect we'll stuff the Argies in France.

sioda

Trying my best to get some positives from this game. Carney imo has booked himself a seat and i think will get some game time.

Time for EOS to cut G Murphy off he was dire.

MOD should be staying at home after his performance but to quote George Hook Cullen did nothing.

Gavin Duffy has done enough to get a seat not sure about game time.

I know B Murphy got a lot of stick but when passes are being aimed at your head what can you do e few more years and I think WC for him.

Think Reddan is in with a chance of the second number 9 but will EOS break wallace and boss who are a decent unit who knows

But hopefully the main positive for me is that Staunton will never wear the green of Ireland again he was a disgrace.

EdgarAllenPoo

A dog with a hammer up its arse could have played better than most of the Irish players last night.

Staunton couldn't kick the head off a dandelion though his running game is slightly better.

It ROG goes down then in the words of earthworm Jim "we're dooooomed, doomed I tell ya."

nacho libre

Reading through the posts i'm glad i missed this game now. It would appear the strength in depth in Irish rugby is not as extensive as touted in some quarters.

Sangre

JC 2K3 wrote:

Jesus, it was like watching a bad A match....

What? That was an A game.

zAbbo

Concerns about Carney, he let his man right in and was left flapping mid air.

How bad was G Murphy, poor passes, ran into Rob Kearney under a high ball, and didn't offer much going forward, I think he has played himself out of the RWC, he's a fantastic footballer, but is a liability in the green shirt.

B.Muprhy isn't good enough at this level.

I'd have Kearney in there to cover FB, and at a stretch Luke Fitz and Isaac Boss can both cover that position.

Indeed Kearney's utility and his familiarity with the rest of the backline should swing in his favour.

Sundy

sioda wrote:

Trying my best to get some positives from this game. Carney imo has booked himself a seat and i think will get some game time.

I though Carney wasnt very good last night. His defensive position was poor, he shrunk away from his kicking duties which almost cost us a try. On top of that he got more ball than any off the outside backs and all he seemed to do was run straight into contact rugby league style, ontop of that his presentation off the ball was poor resulting in slow ball.

Anyway people should settle down about this result. The only difference in the teams was that we didnt have a goal kicker, if we had we would have won. In fairness to see a team opting for scrums isnt something you will see done very much against argentina.

EdgarAllenPoo

Sundy wrote:

In fairness to see a team opting for scrums isnt something you will see done very much against argentina.

That was a stupid thing to do, whatever about beating them at their own game it was stupid not to take the points the first time they were offered and then to miss a kick just to the right of the post is pathetic.

daveirl

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EdgarAllenPoo

There's always the chance that Ireland could have given away a penalty at the scrum(crooked feeed,collapse,binding,etc), I'm not saying it would have happened but it could and they should have taken the shot at goal when it was first offered.

Inquitus

1. Pointless tour.
2. Contributes nothing to Irish Rugby
3. Never play without a frontline goal kicker, what did we kick penalty wise in those two tests? I am guessing 2/9.
4. What can you learn from this, it is nigh on impossible for a player to shine amid such mediocrity.

If The Bull, ROG, POC, Strings, BOD, D'Arcy or Shaggy get injured we are fooked.

We can cover the 2nd Row, O'Kelly and O'Driscoll have what it takes to do a decent job, but losing POC is not worth contemplating.

We have no cover of International Standard at 10

or 9, neither Boss or Reddan is up to it imo.

No cover for the Bull

No decent cover in the centre's neither Trimble nor Duffy are up to it. Same goes for the wing regards Bowe.

Carney looks the genuine article, but not in time for the RWC, needs a season imo.

Murphy (G) must be allergic to green.

Match was crap, no continuity or basic skills from either side, no penetration from either 3/4's - desperate rugby altogether.

Trojan

The ref was wrong at the scrum, it was the right decision for the captain to take. With a semi-competent referee we'd have the penalty try about 5 minutes earlier.

Inquitus wrote:

We can cover the 2nd Row, O'Kelly and O'Driscoll have what it takes to do a decent job

I strongly disagree. I really can't see what people see in Mick O'Driscoll. He has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that he's not good enough for international duty.

Wallace is there at 10, Staunton doesn't have it.

I'd give both Boss and Reddan a change, I think they're maturing.

Young was good.

Trimble & Fitzgerald are both there or thereabouts. Bowe, well... I guess he's just not quite up to the standard.

Carney didn't cement his place by any means. Decent first game, extremely poor second. So much for the rugby league defence on the try.

All in all, 80 minutes of my life that I want back.

EdgarAllenPoo

What happened to that development programme for players like Trimble and Bowe I read about a few months ago. Either it's not worth pish or they haven't done it yet.

Having missed out on seeing most of the Churchill Cup matches can someone fill me in and give me some hope as to future prospects.

Incidently what happened with Sean Cronin?

Amazotheamazing

The problem is Wallace isn't up to it either, if he was he wouldn't be still scrapping for his place behind an aging Humphreys.

zAbbo

I think Luke Fitz is going to be a good player, maybe this RWC has come too soon for him, be certainly hasn't earned his place in the squad.

Wallace isn't a bad player, in the first test he was full of running, and can provide cover for FH and IC, the fact is Humph is barely fit to fart these days, but is still a reliable goal kicker, something which may be worth it, considering the backline we have.

Marshy

zabbo wrote:

I'd have Kearney in there to cover FB, and at a stretch Luke Fitz and Isaac Boss can both cover that position.

Indeed Kearney's utility and his familiarity with the rest of the backline should swing in his favour.

Kearney was very ordinary and at the moment simply isnt up to it.

Luke Fitz has barely played any meaningful games for leinster and when he has hasnt really impressed. A bit over-rated really, he's by no means there yet.

Wrt the second rows Both MOK and MOD are useless. The former is totally over the hill and the latter isnt even a munster starter.

Inquitus

Marshy wrote:

The former is totally over the hill and the latter isnt even a munster starter.

With POC and DOC at Munster there's very few 2nd rows in the world who would get a start

bugler

Reading through the posts i'm glad i missed this game now. It would appear the strength in depth in Irish rugby is not as extensive as touted in some quarters.

Who has been claiming we have strength in depth? I think it is pretty much accepted prior and after this game that we don't. We are currently blessed with a core of a team of very good players. We may 2/3 short of really being a top side. It is unlikely we will ever have the full deck.

I feel a bit sorry for S Best. He has had a good tour and all we hear is the usual ****e about god help us if Hayes gets injured. Well Hayes will be gone soon enough.

Unfortunately as fans there will come a day where we are watching a team without any BODs, D'Arcys, POCs and even the likes of Leamy and Wallace (Jennings had a poor game, he is a good player but I worry about some people automatically ascribing greatness to him based off his Leicester career). So enjoy the relatively good times while we have them

By the way, most of the back three had their shocking moments. It was a bit unfair to point out Carney's defence for the try, there was a man outside Contepomi and I think Carney was going for the intercept, which was probably the only way we were going to score.

Inquitus

bugler wrote:

I feel a bit sorry for S Best. He has had a good tour and all we hear is the usual ****e about god help us if Hayes gets injured. Well Hayes will be gone soon enough.

Sorry but Best in not up to International Level and never will be, his work rate on the park is nothing compared to the Bull, he makes nowhere near the amount of tackles round the fringes as the Bull, and his scrummaging is no better than the Bull's. All in all if he starts in the RWC we are screwed.

Inqui

PS His Brother is a bloody decent Hooker tho

daveirl

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Inquitus

NZ 2007 Backs
Aaron Mauger
Brendon Leonard
Byron Kelleher
Conrad Smith
Dan Carter
Doug Howlett
Isaia Toeava
Josevata Rokocoko
Leon MacDonald
Luke McAlister
Ma'a Nonu
Malili Muliaina
Nick Evans
Piri Weepu
Sitiveni Sivivatu

and every one of them is International Class

Outside of ROG we have no International Quality Fly-Half - "Baby" Humphs - Might be one day, "Mincer" Wallace - never will be.

Outside of Strings we have no International Quality Scrum Half - imo Reddan and Boss and not up to it yet.

In the centres we can pull in Trimble who is getting there, but it is a big loss if he has to play.

No tightheads to replace The Bull

Very limited replacements for the 2nd row if we lose POD or DOC

Shaggy has become irreplaceable over the last couple of seasons.

The only place we have strength in depth of any sort is Hooker and the Back Row imo.

So yes if we lose 4 players in the areas identified as those we have no strength in depth, we are Fooked and only 60% as good as we can be with them playing, and the same goes for the provinces, very little strength in depth in alot of positions even just at European level.

daveirl

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Chucky the tree

daveirl wrote:

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All we need is either ROG or BOD to be out and were are ****'d. Thats the difference, NZ could survive with losing 1 big player, we cant though.

daveirl

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Snickers Man

daveirl wrote:

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Because it's bollocks rugby, that's why.

I have seen Irish teams do it loads of time when they're behind. Eating up the clock and coming away with nothing. If you're good enough to score from that position, then bloody well score. If not, hanging around and hoping that the ref is going to give you a penalty try and then complaining when he doesn't is just the ultimate in whinging, losing, brain-dead bollox rugby.

It's a bit like soccer teams who continuously play the offside trap and then carp and whine like mad when a 50-50 call goes against them. It's trying to enlist the support of the referee as an extra man on your side. Most refs know this and resent it. So they are biased against the team trying this from the start.

Ireland were awful on Saturday. Principally at decision making. So Staunton froze (again) on the big occasion. You can blame him for a lot but not for everything. Why didn't somebody help him out with the decision making? For instance, EVERY time he got the ball in an attacking position he passed it. Good intentions you might say, and so would I. But pretty early on it was obvious that
a) the Irish backs were too poorly drilled/unfamiliar with each other to string an effective passing movement together, and
b) the Argentinian rush defence was up too quickly (maybe a bit too quickly and from a too-far-forward position, but let's not blame the ref, at least he was consistent in NEVER penalising them for offside) to give the Irish any time to think about a line break.

So what do you do when plan A is clearly not working? On Saturday, keep trying plan A.

There is no secret of how to deal with a rush defence. In the 1980s and 1990s, Australia were the prime exponents of that defensive tactic, and talents as diverse as Jeremy Guscott for the Lions in 1990 and Jack Clarke for Ireland in 1991 showed how to beat it. Put the ball in behind them and run on to it.

Simple momentum mechanics: if four hulking great brutes are charging full tilt at you with the intent of knocking your block off, it's especially difficult for them to change direction and follow a ball that is running away from them.

Why was the Argentinian full back never tested with an up and under? For Christ's sake there were FIVE Munster or Munster-bound backs in the Irish line up and no Garryowen in the entire game!!!! The likes of Mick English and Barry McGann must be spitting in their beer.

No leadership in the team and poor decision making at fly half was what lost us that match.

Oh, and no place kicker either.

Black mark against O'Sullivan for that one.

EdgarAllenPoo

That was a very good(and accurate) rant.

Nukem

My god anyone want to hand out some cheese with this wine!

Front Row
We needed cover for a front row, we blooded 2 props and a possibility of another one. We now have 3 fit hookers, Flannery looks back to his best and Shehan looks good.

Second Row
Second rows we have issues, Cullen isn’t up for it, Hogan needs more experience, Driscoll looked good in the lineout but not that effective in the loose or open play. MOD I'm sorry is just too long in the tooth, fantastic servant but just been out gunned.

Back Row
Gleeson still looks a bit rusty but hopefully will come good. Heaslip looked very effective, and more game time in the starting XV will help I’m sure. Jennings looking at him just looked knackered, long season for him. Ferris looked dynamic and needs more grooming. Quinlan was destructive and showed that if EOS ever needed a brawling player he only can choose one man.

Half Backs
Boss looked a little rushed but I think once he slows down and thinks he will be a huge asset to Ireland. Reddan like Jennings is coming off a long season and was a big ask to show up all guns blazing, visibly looks tired. Looked very sharp all season and probably edges Boss on all round display.

OH position is a major problem. Wallace is very one dimensional while still having a fair boot but a long way off ROG. Staunton well what can I say, covers himself in glory one minute then pulls a shotgun and blows his foot off. His last chance IMO now f**k off. Far too many school boy errors.

Centre
What do you compare them too, Darcy and BOD. Com'on be fair, possibly the two best players let alone centres. Trimble and Kearney I reckon if we give them more time they can become a fair strike force. Kearney did look woeful on Saturday with some school boy errors but looked like he didn’t gel with Murphy. I reckon Murphy let the occasion get the better of him but more time in the Ireland camp may prove fruitful. Duffy is a good utility player but not a natural centre IMO, more a fullback

Wingers
Trimble,Lewis,Carney,mmmmmmmmm none seem to be up to Hickie and Shaggy standards but once again in form front line experienced. They should be introduced in parts with a full backline and see how they get on. Fitzgerald, very young in terms of international but still good exposure for him.

Fullback
Oh Jesus how it pains me to say this but Dempsey is the only true FB in Ireland at the moment. Duffy looked handy but needs far more exposure at this level to be proven. GM no potency in attack and has proved frailties in defense than will I’m afraid never go away after that missed tackle against France.

Come on this was a very cut+paste squad and you must take positives from it as they were tough tests. We need leaders and players to stand up and be counted and a lot of players just didn’t do it.

Nukem

Snickers Man

Nukem wrote:

My god anyone want to hand out some cheese with this wine!


Come on this was a very cut+paste squad and you must take positives from it as they were tough tests. We need leaders and players to stand up and be counted and a lot of players just didn’t do it.

Nukem

That it was a third-string side is true but the Argies were severely under strength as well.

We could and should have won that second test. We had enough territory and possession to do so comfortably. The problem is that the backs played apallingly and the confidence (of and in) many of those players will be ruined as a result. Is that positive?

Look at soccer in the days of Jack Charlton. Going into the 1988 European finals the team was unbeaten for 12 games and it wasn't at full strength for all of those. The point is that it was always sent out to do a job, try and win and whatever you do, don't lose. It got people into a winning mentality and the confidence of quite ordinary players grew as a result.

On Saturday, we had only one trick in attack--pass the ball down the line--and the Argentinians had, so far as we know, only one trick in defence: charge up quickly and get in their faces.

The howling knock on in the second half (by whom I forget) was testament to how well the Argentinian tactic worked. The confidence of the Irish backs was shot. Would Argentina have had an answer to more varied tactics? I suspect not but we don't know because we never asked those questions of them.

A win in a tough place like Buenos Aires would have done those players no harm at all. that shambles of a display has probably ruined the test careers of many of them. And that's a terrible waste.