Argentina v Ireland (8pm RTE2)

zAbbo

Game tonight.

Looking forward to seeing what some of these players can do.

The Teams:

Argentina: 15 Bernardo Stortoni, 14 Tomás De Vedia, 13 Miguel Avramovic, 12 Hernán Senillosa, 11 Francisco Leonelli, 10 Felipe Contepomi (captain), 9 Nicolás Vergallo, 8 Juan Manuel Leguizamón, 7 Juan Fernández Lobbe, 6 Martín Durand, 5 Esteban Lozada, 4 Pablo Bouza, 3 Santiago González Bonorino, 2 Alberto Vernet Basualdo, 1 Marcos Ayerza
Replacements: 16 Matías Cortese, 17 Pablo Cardinalli, 18 James Stuart, 19 Genaro Fessia, 20 Lucio López Fleming, 21 Juan Fernández Miranda, 22 Horacio Agulla

Ireland: 15 Gavin Duffy, 14 Brian Carney, 13 Andrew Trimble, 12 Kieran Lewis, 11 Tommie Bowe, 10 Paddy Wallace, 9 Isaac Boss, 8 Jamie Heaslip, 7 Keith Gleeson, 6 Neil Best, 5 Malcolm O'Kelly, 4 Trevor Hogan, 3 Simon Best (captain), 2 Jerry Flannery, 1 Bryan Young.
Replacements: 16 Bernard Jackman, 17 Tony Buckley, 18 Mick O'Driscoll, 19 Stephen Ferris, 20 Tomas O'Leary, 21 Geordan Murphy, 22 Barry Murphy.

Diamondmaker

Yah gonna be interesting, really keen to see how all these different individuals and combos fair.

zAbbo

Big games required from Neil Best (what happened to him!)

Tommy Bowe is on form, and Carney will show what kind of transition he has made.

Lots of players with a chance to either make a stake for the 30 man RWC squad, and for inclusion in the 22.

zAbbo

Two hours to go, cmon you boys in green.

Coverage starts at 8pm, kickoff 8.10, so there won't be that long to listen to Hook bemoaning the point of this tour.

Predictions all sway towards the Puma's

They'll put on plenty of grunt, and look to win in up front, My prediction is our backs will come out on top, and we'll hold parity up front and sneak the lineout.

Yes I'm optimistic

Anyone else interested / watching it ?

zAbbo

Forgot to mention this is also live online through - http://www.rte.ie/live/

(Yes I have feck all todo tonight)

Trimble 2, Carney 1, Bowe 1 and Big Mal for tries, super 5 try bonanza for the visitors

Leon11

too close too call this match. Max of 5 point win for either side

that stream is actually watchable.

Ireland by <10

I'm liking what I'm seeing of Boss and Trimble.

Wallace seems to be getting good delivery. Some nice balls in the middle.

AbusesToilets

I'm looking to watch this on setanta's broadband service but it's not listed as a pay per view game,yet it's listed on their schedule.Anyone know what the story is there?

besty

Ugh...

Try Argentina. Break crafted by Contepomi.

19-17, 5 mins left.

besty

Gavin Duffy lands a pressure kick to put us 20-19 in front.

JC 2K3

Bah, damn it Murphy!

Argentina win 22-20

Redundo

That game exploded into a bit of life by the end! Gutting for the Irish players, to have done so well and controlled so much, then to have it slip away like that.

Definately the Paddy Wallace injury that changed things around in Pumas favour. Damned unlucky for Ireland in the end.

Not sure what to make of Carney, excellent interept and a few good tackles, but otherwise was fairly anonymous.

EdgarAllenPoo

John Hayes could have made a better drop goal attempt than Murphy, I want to see Reddan get a game next week.

We are still seriously screwed at 10 if O'Gara gets injured.

zAbbo

Thought it was a great game, a real two fingers to the Pumas in their back yard, the abrasiveness of the Irish players, not letting the Argies settle was good.

I thought Flannery, Mal, Best, and Heaslip had good games, no-one really shone in the backs, Gavin Duffy was safe under the high ball, but not much else.

Not sure what you can gauge from a scratch team, gutting to lose at the end, but next week will go a long way to deciding who gets on the plane to France.

EdgarAllenPoo

Flannery had a great game, Neil Best needs anger management classes, it's all well and good putting in big tackles put if he keeps getting carded he'll become a detriment to the Irish team.

thebaz

i thoght the whole front row and o'kelly did well , given it was Argentina -- Best and Heaslip were great -- and while you could see Kearney, is a bit raw to Union, he oozes class -- apart from that the rest of the first team won't loose much sleep -- the real worry for me is at out half (backup to o'gara), hopefully the rumoured Humphreys world cup comeback will happen .

daveirl

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daveirl

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thebaz

daveirl wrote:

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his kicking was pretty average/poor -- i'm not convinced , that if O'Gara gets injured he will be able to step in to big pressurised games , such as France away, the real pumas or the All blacks -- i'd be much happier to see Humphreys giving it one last go.

Amazotheamazing

The thought of Wallace being anywhere near playing for us in RWC is terrifying. Did no-one else think Murphy actually got more out of the ball when he was on, suddenly we seemed to have go forward ball. He is a poor kicker because he is a first centre, and no amount of wishing he is an outhalf will make him one.

NotWormBoy

Most positive loss ever. I'm not too worried about the loss, given that its a second string side playing a second string side who had their first choice number 10 in Contepomi. If we had O'Gara on, we'd have won comfortably. Our lineout raped theirs. Scrum held up. Backline showed promise, but needed more time together. Support was occasionally slow getting to tackled players. Forwards didn't let the Argies walk all over them, held their own and had a go back as well.

You'd be worried though about depending on Wallace. No doubt he has skills, but the fact he doesn't normally play at 10 for Ulster is a worry, he needs more experience. We can't change anything for the World Cup, but after that we'd need to have someone there who plays week in week out at that position.

Don't really rate Bowe, I'd have preferred seeing Geordan on the wing. Heaslip and Best had good games, Duffy looked alright at full back, pack performed well overall.

Happy with most things, bar the indiscipline and occasional lack of support. And the scoreline of course, but...

zAbbo

It looks like Jeremy Staunton will be rushed over, Wallace no doubt has playmaking skills, his usage of the reverse pass last night worked well. He's not an international standard 10, but a capable backup against the weaker teams, and it helps than he has a half back partnership with Boss.

Boss - a little slow with passing, he needs to fire the ball from the base of the ruck, instead of 2 steps then passing, if the break is on, by all means go for it. Eoin Reddan is now a serious contender for the backup SH slot, and if he gets a chance, his form could put him above Strings.

Bowe - quiet, ball wasn't coming to either wing, but Carney shades it for the backup slot

Lewis - quiet, needs gametime at IC.

Heaslip - played well, and laying down a marker

N.Best - abrasive as usual, his indiscpline will put him outside the starting XV and possibly 22.

Flannery - fierce as usual, what happended to his arrow throwing, he looked a little off form.

Also worth noting, Mick O'Driscoll stole 3 lineouts on the bounce, but what on earth happened the last one, we stole the lineout, then turned over the ball leading to a try.

Looking forward to seeing how the reserve backrow perform, with Ferris, Jennings, and Alan Quinlan coming in, as well as Cullen and Eoin Reddan.

Amazotheamazing

It's not like Staunton is the answer either, though he does have the skills. The crazy situation of the provinces having Warwick, Contepomi and Humphreys playing outhalf could come back to kill us. Holwell would be Irish qualified by now. Wallace should have played all season at 10 and Sexton should have got more than 2 games for Leinster.

Laslo

Great stuff? Positive loss? Pathetic performance IMO.

daveirl

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Sangre

Don't think the Argentinians will be satisfied by that win at all. If Wallace had stay on (or even if we actually had a no.10 on the pitch) then I don't think there was anyway we'd lose. Some goods lines and distribution from the boys in the centre although it was clear they'd never played together. Some great work in the tight 5, especially in the set pieces.
Some huge hits by Flannery, although he did get pinged for hanging onto the ball twice which was annoying. Good lineout throws though. The number 2 shirt is his for the taking imo.
Think Neil Best is the perfect answer to counter any aggresive packs we play against. The guy plays like hes been caged up for the previous week and had been poked with pointy sticks by people wearing the Argentina jersey.

Anyone notice how after we got the penalty at the end to put us in the lead that we lost the ball in the restart (although we did get it back). Way too simliary to France in 6n. Think we would have learnt our lessons.

Anyway, I think the better team lost.

thebaz

I'm no front row expert, but realise this is a serious problem area for the world cup, will either Best or Young challenge Hayes or Horan , given the scrum was as solid as its been for a long time !

crybaby

decent enough performance except for the complete and utter lack of discipline shown especially by the Ulster players in the pack. Apart from the discipline though the entire front row were excellent as were Best and Heaslip, Gleeson was a bit invisible for the entire game

Boss I thought generally was OK but he made some very ppor decisions when it came to kicking the ball away and one of them resulted in Argentina counter attacking and getting the vital try aswell and Paddy Wallace just doesn't look international standard to me.

poor decision making at the end as well, we had Argentina and we would have either scored a try or gotten the penalty, instead we had Murphy making some half ass attempt at a drop goal instead.

Carney did well I thought, Tommy Bowe on the other hand just continues to look out of his depth in international games

zAbbo

Re: Front Row :
Realisitically, No, they won't

Best can play either side of the scrum, and is by all means a dedicated player.

Argentina are embarrassed with quality front rowers, and they can effectively put together 4-5 front rows without diminishing the quality.

Our lack of props, means that both will probably travel to the RWC (Best for sure)

It's also worth noting that Bowe was playing left wing, and not his favoured right wing (accommodating Carney), I still think he'll make the RWC squad, but has an uphill struggle to displace either Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Carney, Geordon Murphy, Trimble, or whoever else Eddie marks as a winger.

Rob Kearney could make it and has the footballing skills to play FB or Wing

thebaz

zabbo wrote:

It's also worth noting that Bowe was playing left wing, and not his favoured right wing (accommodating Carney), I still think he'll make the RWC squad, but has an uphill struggle to displace either Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Carney, Geordon Murphy, Trimble, or whoever else Eddie marks as a winger.

Rob Kearney could make it and has the footballing skills to play FB or Wing

I think Bowe is very average , and would hope he doesn't make the squad

zAbbo

thebaz wrote:

I think Bowe is very average , and would hope he doesn't make the squad

He's been playing excellently for a poor Ulster side, and has been their best back, He deserves a shot at a place, but that seems unlikely considering Carneys arrival, Kearneys utility, and Luke Fitz's raw speed.

razorblunt

I wouldn't get too carried away about the scrum being solid, it was barely even an "A" argentinean front row so they should have and did cope well. Thought Best played very well his aggresion is like Alan Quinlan but he doesnt give away half of the stupid penalties that Quinlan goes through in a game.

The 2nd rows were too quiet in the loose I thought and Mick O'Driscoll made more carries in the last 10 minutes than Hogan and Kelly did all game I reckon.

Sangre

razorblunt wrote:

I wouldn't get too carried away about the scrum being solid, it was barely even an "A" argentinean front row so they should have and did cope well.

Why should an A Irish front row cope well with an A Argentina front row?

zAbbo

Sangre wrote:

Why should an A Irish front row cope well with an A Argentina front row?

Especially in the Argies backyard !

Credit to the front row.

I've got the game here, and will re-watch it later in the week twas an exciting game

Nukem

Felt Ireland were hard done by - Ireland played majority of the rugby.

Some good passages of play, thought Heaslips support running was excellent. Although sometimes i thought the single player took a a bit much on (notably Flannery getting isolated and hanging onto the ball). Boss didnt direct the troops as much as i thought, Reddan would make the difference.

Front row played very well IMO.Like to see Bracken have a run as well with Buckley just to see how the scrum would fair with two massive props like that.
I think it showed that Ireland have quaility players coming through and blooding them on tours like this is no bad thing!

bugler

The front rows' performance was the big positive out of the game. Ayerza is a class prop and seeing both Best and Buckley do well against him wasn't something I expected. Even with two TH it was solid.

That said I don't believe Young or Best are currently the answer to the scrum problem for the first team. Young had his chance against Australia and didn't deliver. Best is the most likely to feature anytime soon - I'm assuming Hayes will retire from the international scene after the WC and Best is his natural successor as things stand now. He is a decent prop and can still improve.

Things are looking a bit better in prop terms. Not that long ago TH was the major crisis position - now some contenders are emerging. Ross, Best, Buckley all could potentially become good international props. Obviously they all can't - but with regular gametime for Munster Buckley will be in the international set up. Ross will probably need to come home to get a shot - not sure why Leinster didn't try to sign him.

As for LH - things are not as optimistic. Best can do a decent job of covering there, and he may end up there as a regular starter for Ireland depending on the TH situation. Young still has plenty of time to mature and may well come good, and he can also cover both sides.

Daragh Hurley at Munster has shown lots of promise but his fate would seem to be tied to that of Marcus Horan - if he can't usurp him at Munster then it won't happen internationally. And I don't see DK going for youth.

Cian Healy is promising too, but I'm sure it will be a couple of seasons before he breaks through.

Linford

I thought Ireland did well. If Contemponi had not been playing Ireland may have gotten a big score against Argentina. Argentina had nothing else in the backs.

I thought Bowe was average and although Carney was given very little to do, he made some excellant tackles and took his try brilliantly, if it comes down to Bowe and Carney for the WC squad, Carney will make it.

Boss didn't play well and Redden has to challenge his position for the 22 at the WC.

Flannery is the best hooker in Ireland and he showed it.

O'Kelly played very well, and seemed very fit, he should make the WC squad and probably the bench and then retire from International rugby after the WC.

Best (no. 6) had a good game and will be in the battle for the team.

Heaslip had a great game.

The centres were disapointing.

Its a pity Paddy Wallace's kicking isn't a bit better, he played well.

nacho libre

Laslo wrote:

Great stuff? Positive loss? Pathetic performance IMO.

Obviously while it was disappointing to lose there are many positives to be taken from the game. Games like these are about experimentation, so really the scoreline isn't the critical factor, it's about assessing the performance of fringe players ahead of the World Cup. I think based on this performance Ireland are in good shape except in one key position. It's no good having the forwards doing a ton of work if we don't have a person adept at finding good field position and slotting over the penalties. So say your prayers O'Gara doesn't get injured.
I thought Carney did particularly well. Heaslip, Best and Flannery did well too. Boss in my opinion didn't do enough in this game to oust Stringer in the starting lineup for the World Cup. Barring injury i think the first team should have nothing to fear from Argentina come September.

zAbbo

Jeremy Staunton has flown out and meets up later today with the squad.

Wallace is rated at 50-50, but I doubt he'll be playing.

Trimble and Bowe are carrying knocks, expect Luke Fitz to get the nod at 11, with Carney staying at 14, and possibly Barry Murphy coming in at 13, and Geordie Murphy at FB.

A complete back-row change around as well, with Jennings, Quinlan and Ferris coming in, with Leo Cullen in instead of Hogan, and Reddan/Staunton as the half backs.

I'd like to see Buckley starting as well.

LoLth

Sorry if its been mentioned already (looked but amy have missed it) :

3 things I got from this game:

1. we can make good breaks and adapt very well to the game the other team plays. We did well at closing down potential breaks. That last argie drop was unfortunate - anyone see how they got the ball out of a lost lineout?

2. Our lineouts have come on in leaps and bounds. near the end there we did fantastically well in lineout turnovers

3. that final drop goal. I know they were puching for better position (and did a great drive) but it struck me as very similar in planning to the italian game in that we could have taken that kick a good bit earlier with a lot more space around the kicker. Was the ground made up worth the pressure it put the kicker under ? Or should we have just kicked from further out and let accuracy make up for distance? was it a deliberate attempt to force a penalty ?

There are improvements that can be made but all in all, despite the loss, I'm liking the look of the squad that played on saturday.

Nukem

Player

15 - Geordan Murphy

14 - Brian Carney

13 - Barry Murphy

12 - Gavin Duffy

11 - Rob Kearney

10 - Jeremy Staunton

9 - Eoin Reddan

1 - Bryan Young

2 - Frankie Sheahan

3 - Simon Best Captain

4 - Leo Cullen

5 - Mick O’Driscoll

6 - Alan Quinlan

7 - Shane Jennings

8 - Stephen Ferris


Replacements:
16 - Bernard Jackman

17 - Tony Buckley

18 - Malcolm O’Kelly

19 - Neil Best

20 - Isaac Boss

21 - Kieran Lewis

22 - Luke Fitzgerald


Not considered due to injury:
Tommy Bowe {shoulder}
Andrew Trimble {ankle}
Paddy Wallace {knee}

Did Peter Bracken travel in the end? How come he didnt get a run out?
Lineout looks to be all ours with Driscoll and Cullen. Scrum will be interesting and with Jennings and Quinlan i reckon we will be a bit more physical at the breakdown. Reddan and Stauton (to stake their claim, I hope)

bugler

Bracken is out there - but didn't make the bench for either test.

Simply put - he's too far down the pecking order. In TH terms Hayes, Best, Buckley would appear to be the pecking order. Buckley will need to continue good form to confirm this though.

The 4 WC props will surely be Young (can cover both sides), Best (likewise), Horan (LH only) and Hayes (TH only).

Bracken isn't really helped by the fact he can't cover LH. I don't rate him to be honest, gives away an awful lot of free kicks and penalties at the scrum.

Sangre

I'm hoping for some Kearnage on the wing!

Diamondmaker

Sangre wrote:

I'm hoping for some Kearnage on the wing!

No Kearnage AND Carnage !

Laslo

daveirl wrote:

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A marvellous rejoinder. I've played for 20 years and watched for longer. Ireland, at this stage, should really be winning these tests. Yes we did well up front but our backs were an embarrassing shambles. Just like tonight by the looks of it. I pray things get better.