Fine Gael Transport Policy

Metrobest

dermo88 wrote:

Olivia Mitchell is a clueless cow, she is about as much use as Shay Brennan.

LUAS is the Malay word for Wide, implying the widest coverage. The ad you are looking at is for Digi, a mobile phone company. Taman Mirhaja (Cheras), its a working class suburb, but its hardly deprived.

Lets just say, take a Malaysian to the most dangerous part of Dublin or Limerick, and an Irishman to the most dangerous part of Kuala Lumpur (KL) or Johor Bahru (JB) at around midnight, leave them to find their way back in 1 hour, and see which one survives intact.

I'll take KL easily. JB.....no chance.

And there are even more venal corrupt little ****ers in charge over there, they make Fianna Fail look like altarboys.

Yeah, maybe not deprived by Malaysian standards but I can't say I was too pleased to take the wrong line and end up there Dermo.

I thought it was an interesting though - the modernity of the LRT station and the ugly tower block in the background, and of course the luas ad. Didn't know what it was for but I kept seeing it all over the place.

JB i've been there.. and survived the gauntlet of touts but I'd prefer a walk through Limerick anyday .:D

But the only thing stopping them getting that service has been a lack of government willpower and money. There are no management or union problems, just a government that dwaddles and constantly plays catch up.

That's part of it for sure, but I also blame Bus Eireann. Members of this forum have complained bitterly about buses being ridiculously late, sitting for ages at termini while passengers get soaked in the rain and drivers being rude. Those are management problems, not something money can fix. I don't feel that lavishing more money onto BE, like Roisin Shorthall would do, will solve those problems.

What we need is a vision for the future, like Singapore has. An example being that Singapore designs its metro stations with phantom underground walkways that can connect seamlessly into new buildings. That's what I call forward planning.

We, on the other hand, are building a metro station at O'Connell Bridge that won't connect with Ireland's busiest station, Tara Street. And do you hear even a whimper of protest from Fine Gael? Of course not. :rolleyes:

dermo88

Thanks for picking Singapore as THE example of best International Practice, but thats where the machine has overcome man. Its the economy, economy, must succeed, must win at all costs, never lose, must come first. Thats the example of forward planning. Their Land Transport Authority has clearly defined targets going on "what happens next". "When we get to 2 Million, start construction of Line A and B so we are ready for 2.5 Million, at 2.75 Million population, start Line C, so we are ready for the next step.

This is the way we should be going for our smaller cities, with clearly defined targets for development, older buildings selected and prepared for renewal, expansion and improvement, and targetted land development.

The plans are ready 10 years in advance, so its a simple case of go in and build it. Although, its not perfect, they did have the Nicholl Road Collapse. Noone needs to own a car in that city state. Anyone who owns a car is either being a snob, or they have a large family, which justifies owning one. Or they are stuck living in Johor Bahru. Public transport is not seen as the travel option for pensioners, paupers and refugees.

Their planning laws are different, a bit oppressive one may say. "Granny, we are moving you, you've been here 50 years, but Gahmen say must go lah, new HDB (Housing Development Board) Apartment, lump sum, and out". Land is so scarce there that every inch of it has to be used. Buildings last between 30 and 50 years at the very most, at which point they are knocked down, and something taller is built. Its a continuous cycle of birth, death and renewal. A Dub can go back in time 40 or 50 years and will easily find points of reference from their childhood, and find familiar landmarks, the home they were born, the hospital they were born, or where their parents were, whereas over there, its gone. Even when you snuff it, its not RIP. You'll be in the ground 20-25 years and the Gahmen CPO the land. You'll be dug up, crunched up, cremated and put into your own HDB urn in the afterlife.

Thats Singapore under the PAP, Peoples Action Party, One party state. We'd never tolerate them in Ireland. They make the PD's look socialist.

Their logo is reminiscent of the British Union of Fascists, but be careful, Lee, Lee and Sons will file a lawsuit for joking about it. Anyway, I'll go back next month, those nice Singapore Army boys can interrogate me

You'll never see a greater contrast in 2 km between Singapore Woodlands checkpoint and Johor Baru.

Johor Bahru, population 1.5 Million. Famously described by Singapores Lee Kwan Yew as "Full of shootings and muggings", Singapores Law and Order system ensured that JB became the social sewage outfloor for Singapore, its place of refuge for the Triads, its place to go clubbing and get off your tits on assorted amphetamines and weed, and that it became a city about as appealing as a dose of the clap. You'll know bad planning when you see that place. One of my IDEAL places of exile for rail transport lobbyists for the WRC.....they'll learn what true inadequacy means there, they'll be screaming social justice all the way, and if they scream loud enough, hopefully a nice stay in Pudu prison will wake them up a bit.......bunch of assholes.

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

That's part of it for sure, but I also blame Bus Eireann. Members of this forum have complained bitterly about buses being ridiculously late, sitting for ages at termini while passengers get soaked in the rain and drivers being rude. Those are management problems, not something money can fix. I don't feel that lavishing more money onto BE, like Roisin Shorthall would do, will solve those problems.

I've yet to see a bus driver do anything to cause a bus to be (appreciably) late. Back in the boring old real world, lateness is caused by traffic. Traffic can only be beaten by decent bus infrastructure and enforcement of that infrastructure. Neither of those can be done by Bus Eireann, only by central and local government. Those arguements stand true for Dublin Bus as well by the way.

You might be right about the other issues (timetabling and rudeness) but they're hardly primary issues for cities (or towns if you like) which have a barely present public transport system.

We, on the other hand, are building a metro station at O'Connell Bridge that won't connect with Ireland's busiest station, Tara Street. And do you hear even a whimper of protest from Fine Gael? Of course not. :rolleyes:

Actually (and this has been explained to you before ), if the Interconnector is built, Tara St. is unlikely to be the busiest station in the city anymore. Spencer Dock will serve the IFSC and Stephens Green will serve the south city centre. Those are reasonable assumptions. If they're right, having the Metro interconnect with the Dart at Stephens Green and the Luas network at O'Connell st an acceptable compromise.

Zoney

markpb wrote:

I've yet to see a bus driver do anything to cause a bus to be (appreciably) late. Back in the boring old real world, lateness is caused by traffic. Traffic can only be beaten by decent bus infrastructure and enforcement of that infrastructure. Neither of those can be done by Bus Eireann, only by central and local government. Those arguements stand true for Dublin Bus as well by the way.

Maybe not the drivers, but the management insist on having the timetabled quantities of buses, resulting in them all being late throughout most of the day after rush hour (of course this can manifest itself as seeming like buses leaving early, and can lead to the "two buses at once" syndrome). Instead the buses out on the road should be used to service the nearest timetabled departure, even if that means waiting 5-7 minutes at the initial stop. That would result in some buses "theoretically" not ever arriving, but would result in schedules getting back on track after rush hour, rather than have buses "essentially" not arrive from an observer standpoint. You could rely on buses departing as scheduled for most of the day.

As I pointed out, there is currently the ludicrous situation of 45 minute gaps in service on a 15 minute clockface timetable even outside of rush hour.

You can certainly run things to take account of traffic rather than pretend it doesn't exist.

Schuhart

I think I drew some blood. How’s about this exchange? (Incidently, the posts here’s referring to on politics.ie are probably here. How he manages to take my posts there (and here) to mean I’m an FF supporter is beyond me.)

Email sent by schuhart today

You may be interested in this thread on boards.ie, where the inadequacy of FG transport policies are being discussed, including your responses.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055094421

I have to say I’m a little stunned at FG not only committing to the Western Rail Corridor, but seemingly thinking that the GDA can be fobbed off by the reopening of the Phoenix Park tunnel – which does nothing to address capacity problems on the Loop Line Bridge.

FG seems to have swallowed the West of Ireland mindset hook, line and sinker. If you’re wondering why people in Dublin and the Mid East are not seeing you as an alternative to FF, it’s because you are not offering an alternative.

It looks like my only option is to reluctantly vote for FF, acknowledging that they have at least made some investment in the capital, in the faint hope that the Interconnector might arrive in 2015 as distinct from FG offering no sign of any commitment to the city whatsoever.

Response by Darren Scully

I have spotted your posts on politics.ie. It is obvious that you are a FF supporter. Why do you waste my time and yours by sending these emails. I am a good guy who works hard and wants the best for Kildare North and my country. I have a young dedicated team of canvassers who believe strongly in what we are trying to achieve. I could spend my free time playing with my two small children, but no I spend my spare time looking after other peoples interests. Look at the bigger picture in life.

Take care of yourself
Darren

Navan Junction

Darren Scully wrote:

we are in support of T21, so there was no need to reprint the whole document in our manifesto.

Well, there's your problem, straight up...........

If you wanted to focus your vote on commuter issues, why would you vote Fianna Fáil-lite??

I had really expected that there would have been a real effort made on transport by all parties in this election

FF may have been a disaster for commuters, but why oh why could FG/Lab not be bothered in even putting together something unique, or different.?

I still can't get over the fact that the only project in the FG manifesto was the WRC - that really just killed the election based on commuting issues

Navan Junction

And that poxy €1 fare gimmick was always going to be a winner in Navan - it ran out somewhere in the cow-fields between Dunshaughlin and the Lismullin henge

What town/candidate was the consideration for the 25 mile radius, I wonder?

Metrobest

dermo88 wrote:

Thanks for picking Singapore as THE example of best International Practice, but thats where the machine has overcome man. Its the economy, economy, must succeed, must win at all costs, never lose, must come first. Thats the example of forward planning. Their Land Transport Authority has clearly defined targets going on "what happens next". "When we get to 2 Million, start construction of Line A and B so we are ready for 2.5 Million, at 2.75 Million population, start Line C, so we are ready for the next step.

This is the way we should be going for our smaller cities, with clearly defined targets for development, older buildings selected and prepared for renewal, expansion and improvement, and targetted land development.

The plans are ready 10 years in advance, so its a simple case of go in and build it. Although, its not perfect, they did have the Nicholl Road Collapse. Noone needs to own a car in that city state. Anyone who owns a car is either being a snob, or they have a large family, which justifies owning one. Or they are stuck living in Johor Bahru. Public transport is not seen as the travel option for pensioners, paupers and refugees.

Their planning laws are different, a bit oppressive one may say. "Granny, we are moving you, you've been here 50 years, but Gahmen say must go lah, new HDB (Housing Development Board) Apartment, lump sum, and out". Land is so scarce there that every inch of it has to be used. Buildings last between 30 and 50 years at the very most, at which point they are knocked down, and something taller is built. Its a continuous cycle of birth, death and renewal. A Dub can go back in time 40 or 50 years and will easily find points of reference from their childhood, and find familiar landmarks, the home they were born, the hospital they were born, or where their parents were, whereas over there, its gone. Even when you snuff it, its not RIP. You'll be in the ground 20-25 years and the Gahmen CPO the land. You'll be dug up, crunched up, cremated and put into your own HDB urn in the afterlife.

Thats Singapore under the PAP, Peoples Action Party, One party state. We'd never tolerate them in Ireland. They make the PD's look socialist.

Their logo is reminiscent of the British Union of Fascists, but be careful, Lee, Lee and Sons will file a lawsuit for joking about it. Anyway, I'll go back next month, those nice Singapore Army boys can interrogate me

You'll never see a greater contrast in 2 km between Singapore Woodlands checkpoint and Johor Baru.

Johor Bahru, population 1.5 Million. Famously described by Singapores Lee Kwan Yew as "Full of shootings and muggings", Singapores Law and Order system ensured that JB became the social sewage outfloor for Singapore, its place of refuge for the Triads, its place to go clubbing and get off your tits on assorted amphetamines and weed, and that it became a city about as appealing as a dose of the clap. You'll know bad planning when you see that place. One of my IDEAL places of exile for rail transport lobbyists for the WRC.....they'll learn what true inadequacy means there, they'll be screaming social justice all the way, and if they scream loud enough, hopefully a nice stay in Pudu prison will wake them up a bit.......bunch of assholes.

And I love their buses with televisions. If you're going to be stuck in traffic, let's make it interesting with some entertainment.

When you are in Singapore, and if you haven't already been there, I would highly recommend a visit to the URA gallery which is off South Bridge Road near the Ann Siang area. It has masterplans for future development, lots of information on architecture and the MRT system. The scale models of the island's HDB blocks are really cool.

It seems Singapore has developed a nose for good architecture.

dermo88

While Ireland was called the Celtic Tiger, and we admire other cities/countries, I must emphasise that they had it relatively easy over there as city planners compared to most Irish cities. Its not even 200 years old. Their plumbing systems are less than 50 years old, and are completely mapped. They've had 40 years to plan on success. It was a fishing village while Dublin was the second city in an Empire.

They've had one party in power, one family, a democratic dictatorship if you like. A very competent legalised dictatorship, and a compliant population who would'nt fart crooked.

If you live in Ballyfermot, Inchicore, and much of the Northside in a former council house, near the tracks, under a PAP Govt, your house would be demolished, the land CPO'ed, and a 20 floor council tower block put in its place. Now, that sounds worse than it actually is, since they are hardly the cesspits of crime and deprivation that they became in Ireland/UK/France....80% of people live and own public housing....see my reference on a compliant population. Skangers don't exist.

They know what they are at over there. We could, but circumstances are against Ireland doing the same.

Lets see.

Most Irish city centres are hundreds of years old, characterised by narrow streets, preservation orders, old buildings, and consequently, the long term solution is unpalatable if their quality is to be improved. Ireland wants to keep its old buildings, there is no way we can go down the road of the 1950's-1970's, where much of our old heritage was lost.

I also point out that if there is corruption in Singapore, its legalised corruption. The economic system is too complex to explain, but it should really be called Lee and Lee Ltd, and even joking about it is enough to get your arse sued off under their defamation laws.

The same with Ireland. There is corruption in Ireland, but no tribunal can completely prove it, and they obtain the occasional "fall guy" like Liam Lawlor, Ray Burke and Beverley Cooper Flynn, who were small compared to those on the go at the moment on the M3 contract in Meath, and in any case, anyone ever found out for corruption was being stabbed in the back for backing the wrong horse before.....after all, all 3 of the above were supporters of General Haughey.

markf909

I guess it is only fair I lash this up, this is direct from Olivia herself

Fine Gael's position on the Interconnector Tunnel is as follows:

Fine Gael is fully committed to all aspects of Transport 21. We accept in
particular that we need to massively increase the range and frequency of
public transport service on offer. The Interconnector Tunnel is a
fundamental and extremely important part of the Tranport 21 plan and Fine
Gael is fully committed to its development. Fine Gael will develop this
project in Government.

Chris_533976

Do any of the major parties actually know what their own transport policies are??

Schuhart

Does "Fine Gael will develop this project in Government" mean delivery by at least the deadline stated in Transport 21? Or does 'develop' mean 'here's an architect's drawing of a hole in the ground?

strassenwolf

Navan Junction wrote:

Well, there's your problem, straight up...........

If you wanted to focus your vote on commuter issues, why would you vote Fianna Fáil-lite??

I had really expected that there would have been a real effort made on transport by all parties in this election

FF may have been a disaster for commuters, but why oh why could FG/Lab not be bothered in even putting together something unique, or different.?

I still can't get over the fact that the only project in the FG manifesto was the WRC - that really just killed the election based on commuting issues

Sadly, I suspect you may be saying much the same thing in 5 years time, when in all likelihood there will still be no rail link between Dublin and Navan (or the WRC, for that matter).

I predict that the Navan link will be undergoing yet another feasibility study in the run-up to the 2012 election.

However, back to the election just past. Did the Navan-Drogheda-Dublin possibility, on which P11 did some work and which seemed very sensible, become an election issue? And is it still on the cards? It looks like a good idea, while we wait for all the feasibility studies on the direct Navan-Dublin route to be carried out, talked about, and then binned.

Navan Junction

strassenwolf wrote:

Sadly, I suspect you may be saying much the same thing in 5 years time, when in all likelihood there will still be no rail link between Dublin and Navan (or the WRC, for that matter).

Quite possibly

strassenwolf wrote:

However, back to the election just past. Did the Navan-Drogheda-Dublin possibility, on which P11 did some work and which seemed very sensible, become an election issue? And is it still on the cards? It looks like a good idea, while we wait for all the feasibility studies on the direct Navan-Dublin route to be carried out, talked about, and then binned.

Navan Drogheda has been talked about in Meath for years, going back to the 1970's, less so outside the county. It was never on the cards during the election.

Basically, there is a fear amongst politicians, Chambers etc, that the possability of the direct link will be undermined by pushing Navan Drogheda.

However, they see Navan Drogheda as Plan B if Plan A (Navan Clonsilla) flops. The Navan Drogheda line isn't well known amongst the county's newer residents, but the natives know all about it

Regarding my comments above, I wasn't defending FF in anyway - I was merely pointing out that the alternative government added nothing to the debate.

We all know that FF have been poor on public transport delivery - it doesn't take the opposition to point that out. What we needed from the alternative government was a real policy document with real plans, not a simple "we support Transport 21"

If FF/PD failed to deliver on transport, then so too did the alternative coalition fail to even deliver a debate on it

monument

Well said.

strassenwolf

Yes, well said NJ. Very informative reply.

It's a pity that Navan-Drogheda-Dublin can't be pushed by the politicians and the chambers of commerce, in case it might damage the case for Navan-Dunboyne-Dublin. From the pictures I've seen of the Navan-Drogheda section it looks like it could be up and running in a matter of months, if the will was there to provide some sort of service into Dublin from Navan. Long term though, Navan-Dunboyne-Dublin would seem to provide better opportunities for a better service than trying to bring trains in along the fairly congested Northern line.

In other words, a service, followed after a number of years by a better service.

With regard to FG's lack of alternatives to T21, it has to be said that T21 promised 34 billion of investment in transport up to 2015. This is an unprecedented commitment and very hard for any party to oppose without being seen as being opposed to investment in transport (which no party is).

On the other hand, despite this big commitment, it remains to be seen how much of this money is spent on the various public transport projects between now and 2015. In the Dublin area alone, the metrowest is likely to face some opposition (on business case grounds, etc.), the Lucan LUAS is likely to face opposition (because of duplication, etc.), and the interconnector is likely to face opposition (on a number of fronts - underuse of capacity, trees at St. Stephen's Green, cost, etc.). And of course Dublin-Navan was included in the cost of T21, but may not actually happen. Outside of Dublin, the WRC is an obvious candidate for delays.

By 2012 we will hopefully know how much of T21 was a well thought out plan, and how much of it was a PR stunt. And maybe at that stage it will be easier for opposition parties to come out with alternatives.