Fine Gael Transport Policy

OTK

***Please keep all comments on topic of transport policy***

Enda Kenny is now better than odds-on favourite to be next t-shock so it's time to review his transport policies.

Firstly, Fine Gael has a short 'contract' and a long manifesto. Maybe the contract is guaranteed while the rest is aspirational. The contract has 14 items. The only items in the 'contract' with any relevance to transport are:

• Reduced taxes on bio-fuels and lower-emission cars
• Targets for every Government agency to reduce its carbon footprint
• Greater investment in renewable energy sources
• Dismissal of any Minister reckless with the people’s money

Nothing very exciting here, sadly.

Here are a few points that stand out from the main manifesto :

1. Support T21 and NSS (but do more cost benefit analysis of projects)
2. Mandatory driving lessons
3. New subsidies for rail freight
4. Multiple tolls on interurban routes replaced with a single toll
5. WRC to Claremorris will be fast-tracked so that it is completed by 2012 rather than the current traget of 2014
6. WRC to Collooney will be approved by railway order by 2012.
7. Lift the toll barriers on the M50 and 'move to' barrier free tolling
8. Build a 'necklace' of park and ride facilities around the M50
9. Introduce competition on 25% of the 'bus market' every 3 years

The first 3 points sound good. Point 4 sounds legally impractical.
Fine Gael is promising the WRC to Sligo.
I don't see Navan anywhere here.
The bus competition thing doesn't make any sense to me.
If the M50 barriers are lifted before barrier-free tolling is introduced it will cost the exchequer around 50million/year and will of course attract even more drivers onto the road.

MLM

They're going to use the Phoenix Park Tunnel, or the "secret tunnel" as they called it. If they'd get a LUAS for Cork I'd nearly consider giving them the vote. Rail Freight? Is there room for expanded rail freight? I thought the reason it was being run down was because there isn't capacity on the existing network with the explosion in passenger numbers?

D'Peoples Voice

OTK wrote:

***Please keep all comments on topic of transport policy***

Enda Kenny is now better than odds-on favourite to be next t-shock so it's time to review his transport policies.

1. Multiple tolls on interurban routes replaced with a single toll
2. Lift the toll barriers on the M50 and 'move to' barrier free tolling
3. Build a 'necklace' of park and ride facilities around the M50
4. Introduce competition on 25% of the 'bus market' every 3 years

The fact that fine Gael know in ADVANCE that they are going into power with Labour, why bother proposing tolls? Labour have already said they are against tolls, so which is it - WIll the government be for or against them.
Ditto competition on the bus market, Labour are against competition, so why are Fine Gael proposing it?
Park and Ride facilities around the M50 have a greater chance of working if tolls remain ON the M50.
Surely after spending 5 years thinking, it cannot be that diffiuclt to come up with some innotive ideas- these ideas to me look like some of the old rehashed policies we have heard over and over again.
Someone please give me an alternative to vote for! It's like trying to decide who to support in the 3rd place playoff of the Champions League between Manu and Chelsea!

OTK

It's not a great choice. I don't think the manifestos count for much compared with the 'Coalition Programme for Government', which we won't know in advance. Whichever party gets in will likely go broke in about 18 months and all public transport projects will then halt. We'll probably get the Luas docklands and maybe the Sandyford extension. Also Cork-Midleton and Athenry-Ennis.

Skyhater

OTK wrote:

1. Support T21 and NSS (but do more cost benefit analysis of projects)
2. Mandatory driving lessons
3. New subsidies for rail freight
4. Multiple tolls on interurban routes replaced with a single toll
5. WRC to Claremorris will be fast-tracked so that it is completed by 2012 rather than the current traget of 2014
6. WRC to Collooney will be approved by railway order by 2012.
7. Lift the toll barriers on the M50 and 'move to' barrier free tolling
8. Build a 'necklace' of park and ride facilities around the M50
9. Introduce competition on 25% of the 'bus market' every 3 years

If they carry out (1) properly (proper cost benefit analysis and prioritisation), then (5) and (6) should be compleated in 2050!!!!
Definite contradictions in promises!!!!

Interconnector would be #1 priority.

MLM

Skyhater wrote:

Interconnector would be #1 priority.

We'll probably just get the "secret tunnel".

Schuhart

I’ve had the following exchange of emails with a local FG candidate, Darren Scully. My last second email, sent a few days ago, got no reply. People can draw their own conclusions, but I would say if you want to let FG know what you think of their ‘ideas’ there’s only a few days to polling day. If you don’t give them some feedback, they ain’t going to know what you think. I found the contact details I needed here.

schuhart wrote:

Email sent to Darren Scully 11 May 2007

I’m rather surprised to see the only commitment to a named rail project in the Fine Gael election manifesto is to the Western Rail Corridor.

Before mistakenly chasing off down the ‘balanced regional development’ route, let us firstly recall that what we are talking about is reinstating a service that will be slower than road. Hence, we don’t even need to get into how if people in Mayo really want rail they’d want to stop building those one-off houses. The project simply isn’t worth pursuing, yet there is a specific commitment to deliver it (on page 81 of the Fine Gael manifesto). More substantial projects rail that would actually bring benefits are bundled together into a meaningless and vaguely positive statement that commits to nothing.

This seems to be yet another example of how the East has to take second place to the West despite having more critical infrastructure needs. And let it be stressed – it’s not that the Western Rail Corridor can be justified on grounds of balanced regional development or front loading of infrastructure as reinstating a slow and infrequent rail services through an area of dispersed population that can only be served by bus, if any public transport solution is feasible, is simply a waste of money.

Hence, Fine Gael are specifically committed to spending money on a rail project known to be a waste, ahead of badly needed projects that would actually yield benefits in the Dublin/Mid East region and elsewhere. Where were Kildare Fine Gael public representatives when this policy was being adopted? Why the silent acceptance that we should put up with inadequate public transport while the West wastes money on services that they don’t need and which won’t provide them any real benefit?

Bottom line. Why should anyone bother voting for Fine Gael when your manifesto displays such a bizarre sense of priority?

Reply received from Darren Scully 11 May 2007

Thanks for your email. I am very committed to transport issues in Kildare North, and as a commuter myself will be doing all that is possible to ensure a top class rail and bus service in Kildare to other parts of the country.

Regards
Cllr Darren Scully

Email sent to Darren Scully 13 May 2007

Thanks for the reply. However, you'll appreciate what's on my mind is the specific commitment in the Fine Gael manifesto to blow a lot of money on a project that several objective studies have found to be just not worth doing.

There is no equivalent mention or commitment to, for the sake of argument, the Dublin Rail Interconnector project which would revolutionise rail services. It is of particular interest to North Kildare, but brings benefits throughout the GDA. I suppose my question is really how did this happen - a pointless waste of money gets into your manifesto, and a project that would actually make a vast amount of people's lives easier is not even mentioned.

I hope you'll understand, at the risk of seeming impolite, a vague commitment from you to do 'all that is possible' really doesn't stack up against a specific commitment in your party's manifesto to waste resources on a pointless project in the West while we stand on a crowded platform in Pearse Street waiting to crush into the next train without hope of additional services as the Loop Line bridge is at full capacity.

This is not about regional development. The West of Ireland gets its 'front loading' of infrastructure. The West coast is paved with airports, and Mayo is peppered with towns that already rail services operating well below capacity. People in the East don't want to move West and see no reason why our infrastructure needs are ignored until they become critical.

What alternative are Fine Gael offering? None, looking at your manifesto commitment to make the unneeded and foolish Western Rail Corridor your priority for rail development.

dermo88

No policy whatsoever in other words. I could repeat my remarks on Fine Gaels past record.....and it does not make for happy reading. For all Fianna Fails faults, failings and incompetence, its record is far better than Fine Gael.

The only document you need to read as regards Fine Gael's opinions on rail transport is their 1984 election manifesto. In Building on reality, they clearly stated "No new investment in the railways", and a commitment to an "Intercity bus network".

I've seen the damage, I remember the records. Every Dubliner, who wants to get from A to B cheaply, and quickly should never ever forgive Fine Gael for what they did, and prevented in the 1980's, irrespective of how broke we were. They could finance farmers and the CAP, they could finance Knock International. But when it came to financing Dublin, it was tough **** sunshine, and the rural areas got the cream in the depths of that dark era.

I have a few choice words from Mr Jim Mitchell

"The railways are an albatros around the taxpayers neck"
"DART is a white elephant"

And they are two. He might be dead, but his policies live on. I suppose one good legacy was the creation of Iarnrod Eireann as a partially seperate company.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Michael Lowry was fired by Fine Gael, but not before.

1. Appointing Mr Eamon Walsh, and firing Mr Dermot O'Leary. Eamon Walsh had absolutely no experience in running a transport company. His appointment divided the CIE board for 9 months.
2. Allowing Esat Digifone to lay cables alongside IE infrastructure. In so doing, the embankments were damaged by the cable laying plough used. Look for some links between Denis O'Brien and Michael Lowry. Coincidence.....I don't think so.
3. The DART to Greystones fiasco. Originally budgeted to cost IEP8.4 Million, it costs IEP20 Million. In 1995, a DART was pushed around Bray Head and brought to Greystones in a pre election publicity stunt.
4. Mr Michael MacDonnell, a former IE executive was to testify at a case where Dermot O'Leary was suing the state as a result of Mr Lowry's actions. He committed suicide not long beforehand.
5. Luas. The halfhearted solution, which is better than nothing, but should have been a DART.

Lowry should answer for this, and more. But hes not answering. Hes being protected. Hes being protected by Fine Gael. The railways have suffered and have had to pay for his incompetence and his deceit. They had to fix the embankments themselves.

On Irelands ONLY rail passenger organisation.

Olivia Mitchell REFUSED to meet them.

Why?

Let Ireland ONLY rail passenger organisation tell you. Not me, go to their website. I won't throw cheap insults, I won't throw in melodramatic words, just go, and see for yourselves. Thats part ONE of my rant.

________________________________________________________________

Part two:

A remark worthy of Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"However, we believe that all such projects must be subject to rigorous cost-benefit analyses based on social, economic and environmental benefits. Such analysis will inform the priority and delivery timetable for the public transport projects outlined in the plan. Fine Gael’s key transport priorities are firstly, to provide all cities and large towns with ample public transport to ensure that traffic congestion is not allowed to deteriorate to the extent that it has in our capital. Secondly, to prioritise a network of road improvements which support and facilitate the development of the National Spatial Strategy and balanced regional development"


Errmmm......whats that Sir Humphrey. In English, please.

That first paragraph wipes out any hope of rail network improvements from Fine Gael, at least on the Mainline Intercity passenger network. When it comes to policy you've got to read between the lines. Politicians never say things directly. They speak indirectly.

My prediction on the arrival of Fine Gael and the rail network.

1. A cost benefit analysis of the rail network.
2. This will be used to justify the end of CIE.
3. Iarnrod Eireann privatised.
4. No retrenchment, but severe cost control and commercial targets imposed, on the basis of the investment made in new rolling stock on Intercity and commuter.
5. Fingers crossed.....the major projects in the Dublin area go ahead, and do not get cancelled as they were between 1982-1995. They will help sustain the construction sector in the event of a downturn in residential and commercial markets.

I could live with that, if it meant IE were commercially focussed to a degree, customer focussed and hungry for success.

The only reason we retained as much of the rail network in Ireland was down to having coalition governments. The idea that any of the network could be removed after the 1960's and 1970's was so unpalatable and unacceptable to the communities on many routes, irrespective of how poor the rail services were. Just imagine if the silly little attempts of "Once a day services" were retained on the likes of Limerick-Claremorris were retained, the communities there would'nt bat an eyelid, the TD's would'nt give a damn, because Sadie, Rover and her son would live rent free at the level crossing cottage at Ballindine, or Ballyglunin or some rotten hamlet. They'd still end up on Bus Eireann, and Iarnrod Eireann would be a joke in those areas.

Its a case of being against railways that do badly, that are mismanaged, that are run as a social employment scheme for the unemployable instead of customers. This is what much of the old Iarnrod Eireann was about, and to a degree....still is.

Railfreight has been decimated, not that Irish conditions are appropriate to its development, but we would like to know who buys the land and where the money for that land goes.

Victor

Haven't I read this thread already?

markf909

I would say if you want to let FG know what you think of their ‘ideas’ there’s only a few days to polling day. If you don’t give them some feedback, they ain’t going to know what you think. I found the contact details I needed here.

Done, i've sent off an email, hopefully I may get more than a vague, it needs to improve!

Darren Scully's reply reminds me of the chancers running in a students union campaign.

markf909

Well my reply was a Word Doc with a list of questions that were asked in the Dail :rolleyes:

My query was similar to Schuhart but the reply was wonderfully generic.

FG are completely hopeless.

Zebra3

And they wonder why they can't get votes in the Dublin area..... :rolleyes:

Owen

Am I the only person who saw WRC, and thought World Rally Championship, instead of Western Rail Corridor?

Schuhart

ned78 wrote:

Am I the only person who saw WRC, and thought World Rally Championship, instead of Western Rail Corridor?

I guess you must be new to these parts, Pilgrim.

monument

Victor wrote:

Haven't I read this thread already?

I glad I'm not the only one who thinks such.

dermo88 wrote:

As for railfreight, thats not going to benefit anyone, and its not relevant to this board.

Victor

monument wrote:

dermo88 likes copying and pasting from other websites.

dermo88

Thats because its originally my work in the first place. I am not going to plagiarise anyone else. As well as that, I'm dermo88 everywhere else I post, not just here alone. Those posts were originally made in Platform11, and Irishrailwaynews.

Bards

It wasn't Eircell but it was Denis O'brien's Esat Digiphone.. they did a deal with the company that got the contract to redo the signalling system and at the same time to lay fibre on their embankments...and guess what... the Fibre was laid for Digiphone.. but a complete balls up was made of the new signalling system

and the rest is hisstory

dermo88

The rest is in Michael Lowrys house.

Ask for Denis O'Brien.

No wrongdoing.

I wonder.

Metrobest

Gosh, I really hope Fine Gael don't get into government, because if they do, it's a case of "hello, Rainbow", "bye-bye Transport 21".

Just imagine the squabbling that would take place under a rainbow coalition:

1. Trevor Sargeant vetoing new motorways, demanding rail links to Letterkenny.
   
2. Roisin Shorthall putting the brakes any future elevated rail line for Dublin, while pushing for subsidies that would bloat the CIE monopoly.
   
3. Fine Gael wanting no subsidies and competition in the bus market. Labour not wanting any competition

.
And these divisions are rife not only in transport policy, but also extend to a range of other economic and social policies that also affect how we live and work, which naturally affects how we travel.

A rainbow coalition that can't even govern itself is not a coalition that I want to see governing Ireland.

For all their faults, and they have many, our current coalition has delivered a decade of prosperity, made our economy the envy of the world, and is delivering new roads and rail lines that will drastically improve our lives.

Don't risk the rainbow

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

Just imagine the squabbling that would take place under a rainbow coalition:

You're dead right! Imagine the confusion if one partner in government wanted more buses while another wanted more competition. Or if one wanted a dublin transport authority but the other didn't want that authority to have control over land use and planning. Or one wanted a light rail network but the other didn't want the retailers in the city centre to suffer so we ended up with two seperate lines.

You've got to be kidding - FF & PDs have been pathetic in government. You can point at FG and tell me they were crap over a decade ago but FF (& PD) are crap right now. Whatever little they have done for Dublin, it hasn't even been fast enough to keep up, never mind actually improving. And don't get me started on the other cities.

Chris_533976

Tho I'm gonna vote for FF, purely because they're the only group that we know are committed (albeit disgracefully late) to finishing all the interurbans etc without squabbling.

Get the essential infrastructure done, give FF one more term to do it (as they're actually doing it, finally), then get someone else in next time.

markpb

Chris_533976 wrote:

Tho I'm gonna vote for FF, purely because they're the only group that we know are committed (albeit disgracefully late) to finishing all the interurbans etc without squabbling.

Get the essential infrastructure done, give FF one more term to do it (as they're actually doing it, finally), then get someone else in next time.

It'll be great to know that in five years time we'll be able to whizz between cities and around the country. Of course when you get to those cities, you won't be able to get anywhere because there'll be no useable public transport.

dermo88

The last thing Ireland needs are Gordon, George, Bungle and Zippy in charge of our transport system.

Give us the corrupt ones who cream 5% off the top on construction contracts, instead of the honest ones who aspire and talk and get nothing done.

I would not be so arrogant about Irelands wealth. Do not ever take it for granted. There was the same kind of crazy optimism in the air when a few compressed Flintstones were found off Kinsale in the 1970's.

If any party can manage through the deflation of the Irish property market without seriously damaging the Irish economy through sensible macroeconomic policies, then they are worth a vote. That is by far the biggest threat that the economy faces. It can affect the whole economy, badly. The last downturn in construction lasted 14 years.

In the 1980's, Ireland had the option of running up to Maurice Doyle in the Central Bank. He signed off a nice form, which was sent to Sandyford Printing Works, where a couple of hundred million were printed off.

We don't have that now. We have to look to the original Tigers on tips on how to tame the Tiger when its full.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

It'll be great to know that in five years time we'll be able to whizz between cities and around the country. Of course when you get to those cities, you won't be able to get anywhere because there'll be no useable public transport.

See, that's just not factually accurate. By 2012, Transport 21 will be almost completed and Dublin will have a metro system as fine as you'll see anywhere in the world. Motorways will connnect all our main cities. That's real progress and it's happening right now, under Bertie and Michael's watch.

As for the towns outside Dublin, they need a shake up of their bus services, which requires a government that has the courage to face down trade unions and monopolies. Now let's see... Who would be better to face down a monopoly: Michael McDowell or Pat Rabitte?

And Dermo88 is right about the economy - we have to become more productive and exercise fiscal discipline. I simply wouldn't trust Enda Kenny, Pat Rabitte and Trevor Sargeant to run a multi-billlion euro economy in uncertain times.

If I were running the FF/PD campaign I would be hammering home a simple slogan about the opposition in the dying days of the campaign.

"Can't govern themselves.
Can't govern Ireland."

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

See, that's just not factually accurate. By 2012, Transport 21 will be almost completed and Dublin will have a metro system as fine as you'll see anywhere in the world. Motorways will connnect all our main cities. That's real progress and it's happening right now, under Bertie and Michael's watch.

Unless you've seen a some secret maps I missed, we won't have a metro system - we'll have one metro line. Just one. One line does not a system make. It will integrate with two Luas lines that were pretty much at capacity from the day they were opened and with no real way to upgrade. It will integrate with a Dart system which, might, with aid of the interconnector (if it gets built) resemble a decent city train line instead of a train to the beach at Bray. If we had all that right now, it might be enough. Will it be enough if Dublin continues to grow for the next 5 years or will we end up with another system which can't cope from the day it opens?

As for the towns outside Dublin, they need a shake up of their bus services, which requires a government that has the courage to face down trade unions and monopolies. Now let's see... Who would be better to face down a monopoly: Michael McDowell or Pat Rabitte?

What bus services should be shaken up? The only other city in this country with a city bus service is Belfast. The others have Bus Eireann driven commuter services. It's also nothing to do with unions, I'm not sure where you got that idea?

And Dermo88 is right about the economy - we have to become more productive and exercise fiscal discipline. I simply wouldn't trust Enda Kenny, Pat Rabitte and Trevor Sargeant to run a multi-billlion euro economy in uncertain times.

It's very easy to look at Ireland and say 'wow, they have a great economy'. That's fine if you don't look at the people living in that economy, spending huge amounts of time commuting to work. It's fine if you don't see the years of ignoring public transport completely, doing it badly when they stopped ignoring it and suddenly finding that they can't build any decent attempt at public transport because of years of bad (and corrupt) planning.

Chris_533976

markpb wrote:

What bus services should be shaken up? The only other city in this country with a city bus service is Belfast. The others have Bus Eireann driven commuter services. It's also nothing to do with unions, I'm not sure where you got that idea?

That's the point. Cork, Limerick and Galway (possibly Waterford too) need control of their bus networks a la Dublin Bus.

As it stands, BE don't seem to care too much about these commuter services, and independent control may bring about more routes and more frequent routes. Integration is key, and a shake-up is needed to stop this whole culture of "BE and IE etc are competitors". They must all work TOGETHER, not seperately.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

Unless you've seen a some secret maps I missed, we won't have a metro system...

It's very easy to look at Ireland and say 'wow, they have a great economy'. That's fine if you don't look at the people living in that economy, spending huge amounts of time commuting to work. It's fine if you don't see the years of ignoring public transport completely, doing it badly when they stopped ignoring it and suddenly finding that they can't build any decent attempt at public transport because of years of bad (and corrupt) planning.

Mark, we'll have two metro lines: MetroNorth and MetroWest. Along with the new luas lines and the two DART lines, that constitutes a pretty good system - not the best in the world, but a world away from the system we have now. Don't risk this plan by making Olivia Mitchell minister for transport. She's already on record calling the interconnector a waste of money.

Ireland's second city, Cork, is really a large town by continental European standards. Galway and Limerick are medium-sized towns. In Holland, Waterford would be considered a quaint village. Nevertheless, Cork, Limerick and the like deserve a decent bus service and they're not getting that from the CIE monopoly, Bus Eireann, that serves them. So that situation needs to change.

And look, Luas is so successful that deprived suburbs in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, have taken to advertising it in their stations!

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

Mark, we'll have two metro lines: MetroNorth and MetroWest. Along with the new luas lines and the two DART lines, that constitutes a pretty good system - not the best in the world, but a world away from the system we have now. Don't risk this plan by making Olivia Mitchell minister for transport. She's already on record calling the interconnector a waste of money.

Metro West isn't planned to be completed till after 2014 and I'd be surprised if it managed even that. That leaves Metro North and two Luas lines. Do you honestly believe those lines, not running on rail alignments like the Green line, conflicting with traffic in a city who's traffic department refuse to give running priority to the existing Luas lines and trying to serve unplanned sprawling housing estates with low density, will have the speed and capacity to be able to cope? Do you think they'll be enough after another five years of growth?

Anyway I notice you've already downgraded your expectations from "as fine as you'll see anywhere in the world" to "not the best in the world, but a world away from the system we have now" so I'll consider that a minor victory :P

Ireland's second city, Cork, is really a large town by continental European standards. Galway and Limerick are medium-sized towns. In Holland, Waterford would be considered a quaint village. Nevertheless, Cork, Limerick and the like deserve a decent bus service and they're not getting that from the CIE monopoly, Bus Eireann, that serves them. So that situation needs to change.

I won't argue with that (I don't think they're proper cities either ) but they definitely deserve better than they have now if they're to grow and not end up like Dublin. But the only thing stopping them getting that service has been a lack of government willpower and money. There are no management or union problems, just a government that dwaddles and constantly plays catch up.

And look, Luas is so successful that deprived suburbs in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, have taken to advertising it in their stations!

Kuala Lumpur - an exciting new development brought to you by IrishDeveloperCorp and only 40 minutes from Dublin!

Metrobest

In Ireland we benchmark ourselves against old Europe, which has had decades, indeed centuries, of sustained prosperity. The reality for Ireland, however, is that we have more in common with the Asian tiger economies insofar as we have experienced rapid economic growth and infrastrcture that has struggled to keep pace.

Just like Dublin, Tiger cities experience growing pains, as evidenced by these pictures I've taken.

Singapore is building a new inner circle line metro, building on the success of its existing three lines that serve a population of 4 MILLION. It continues to charge motorists driving into its high rise centre by charging an electronic toll.

And in Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur's monorail makes little difference to the nasty traffic in this booming city. Even on its worst day, the traffic in Dublin is a breeze compared to KL's.

dermo88

Olivia Mitchell is a clueless cow, she is about as much use as Shay Brennan.

LUAS is the Malay word for Wide, implying the widest coverage. The ad you are looking at is for Digi, a mobile phone company. Taman Mirhaja (Cheras), its a working class suburb, but its hardly deprived.

Lets just say, take a Malaysian to the most dangerous part of Dublin or Limerick, and an Irishman to the most dangerous part of Kuala Lumpur (KL) or Johor Bahru (JB) at around midnight, leave them to find their way back in 1 hour, and see which one survives intact.

I'll take KL easily. JB.....no chance.

And there are even more venal corrupt little ****ers in charge over there, they make Fianna Fail look like altarboys.