Fine Gael Transport Policy

OTK

***Please keep all comments on topic of transport policy***

Enda Kenny is now better than odds-on favourite to be next t-shock so it's time to review his transport policies.

Firstly, Fine Gael has a short 'contract' and a long manifesto. Maybe the contract is guaranteed while the rest is aspirational. The contract has 14 items. The only items in the 'contract' with any relevance to transport are:

• Reduced taxes on bio-fuels and lower-emission cars
• Targets for every Government agency to reduce its carbon footprint
• Greater investment in renewable energy sources
• Dismissal of any Minister reckless with the people’s money

Nothing very exciting here, sadly.

Here are a few points that stand out from the main manifesto :

1. Support T21 and NSS (but do more cost benefit analysis of projects)
2. Mandatory driving lessons
3. New subsidies for rail freight
4. Multiple tolls on interurban routes replaced with a single toll
5. WRC to Claremorris will be fast-tracked so that it is completed by 2012 rather than the current traget of 2014
6. WRC to Collooney will be approved by railway order by 2012.
7. Lift the toll barriers on the M50 and 'move to' barrier free tolling
8. Build a 'necklace' of park and ride facilities around the M50
9. Introduce competition on 25% of the 'bus market' every 3 years

The first 3 points sound good. Point 4 sounds legally impractical.
Fine Gael is promising the WRC to Sligo.
I don't see Navan anywhere here.
The bus competition thing doesn't make any sense to me.
If the M50 barriers are lifted before barrier-free tolling is introduced it will cost the exchequer around 50million/year and will of course attract even more drivers onto the road.

MLM

They're going to use the Phoenix Park Tunnel, or the "secret tunnel" as they called it. If they'd get a LUAS for Cork I'd nearly consider giving them the vote. Rail Freight? Is there room for expanded rail freight? I thought the reason it was being run down was because there isn't capacity on the existing network with the explosion in passenger numbers?

D'Peoples Voice

OTK wrote:

***Please keep all comments on topic of transport policy***

Enda Kenny is now better than odds-on favourite to be next t-shock so it's time to review his transport policies.

1. Multiple tolls on interurban routes replaced with a single toll
2. Lift the toll barriers on the M50 and 'move to' barrier free tolling
3. Build a 'necklace' of park and ride facilities around the M50
4. Introduce competition on 25% of the 'bus market' every 3 years

The fact that fine Gael know in ADVANCE that they are going into power with Labour, why bother proposing tolls? Labour have already said they are against tolls, so which is it - WIll the government be for or against them.
Ditto competition on the bus market, Labour are against competition, so why are Fine Gael proposing it?
Park and Ride facilities around the M50 have a greater chance of working if tolls remain ON the M50.
Surely after spending 5 years thinking, it cannot be that diffiuclt to come up with some innotive ideas- these ideas to me look like some of the old rehashed policies we have heard over and over again.
Someone please give me an alternative to vote for! It's like trying to decide who to support in the 3rd place playoff of the Champions League between Manu and Chelsea!

OTK

It's not a great choice. I don't think the manifestos count for much compared with the 'Coalition Programme for Government', which we won't know in advance. Whichever party gets in will likely go broke in about 18 months and all public transport projects will then halt. We'll probably get the Luas docklands and maybe the Sandyford extension. Also Cork-Midleton and Athenry-Ennis.

Skyhater

OTK wrote:

1. Support T21 and NSS (but do more cost benefit analysis of projects)
2. Mandatory driving lessons
3. New subsidies for rail freight
4. Multiple tolls on interurban routes replaced with a single toll
5. WRC to Claremorris will be fast-tracked so that it is completed by 2012 rather than the current traget of 2014
6. WRC to Collooney will be approved by railway order by 2012.
7. Lift the toll barriers on the M50 and 'move to' barrier free tolling
8. Build a 'necklace' of park and ride facilities around the M50
9. Introduce competition on 25% of the 'bus market' every 3 years

If they carry out (1) properly (proper cost benefit analysis and prioritisation), then (5) and (6) should be compleated in 2050!!!!
Definite contradictions in promises!!!!

Interconnector would be #1 priority.

MLM

Skyhater wrote:

Interconnector would be #1 priority.

We'll probably just get the "secret tunnel".

Schuhart

I’ve had the following exchange of emails with a local FG candidate, Darren Scully. My last second email, sent a few days ago, got no reply. People can draw their own conclusions, but I would say if you want to let FG know what you think of their ‘ideas’ there’s only a few days to polling day. If you don’t give them some feedback, they ain’t going to know what you think. I found the contact details I needed here.

schuhart wrote:

Email sent to Darren Scully 11 May 2007

I’m rather surprised to see the only commitment to a named rail project in the Fine Gael election manifesto is to the Western Rail Corridor.

Before mistakenly chasing off down the ‘balanced regional development’ route, let us firstly recall that what we are talking about is reinstating a service that will be slower than road. Hence, we don’t even need to get into how if people in Mayo really want rail they’d want to stop building those one-off houses. The project simply isn’t worth pursuing, yet there is a specific commitment to deliver it (on page 81 of the Fine Gael manifesto). More substantial projects rail that would actually bring benefits are bundled together into a meaningless and vaguely positive statement that commits to nothing.

This seems to be yet another example of how the East has to take second place to the West despite having more critical infrastructure needs. And let it be stressed – it’s not that the Western Rail Corridor can be justified on grounds of balanced regional development or front loading of infrastructure as reinstating a slow and infrequent rail services through an area of dispersed population that can only be served by bus, if any public transport solution is feasible, is simply a waste of money.

Hence, Fine Gael are specifically committed to spending money on a rail project known to be a waste, ahead of badly needed projects that would actually yield benefits in the Dublin/Mid East region and elsewhere. Where were Kildare Fine Gael public representatives when this policy was being adopted? Why the silent acceptance that we should put up with inadequate public transport while the West wastes money on services that they don’t need and which won’t provide them any real benefit?

Bottom line. Why should anyone bother voting for Fine Gael when your manifesto displays such a bizarre sense of priority?

Reply received from Darren Scully 11 May 2007

Thanks for your email. I am very committed to transport issues in Kildare North, and as a commuter myself will be doing all that is possible to ensure a top class rail and bus service in Kildare to other parts of the country.

Regards
Cllr Darren Scully

Email sent to Darren Scully 13 May 2007

Thanks for the reply. However, you'll appreciate what's on my mind is the specific commitment in the Fine Gael manifesto to blow a lot of money on a project that several objective studies have found to be just not worth doing.

There is no equivalent mention or commitment to, for the sake of argument, the Dublin Rail Interconnector project which would revolutionise rail services. It is of particular interest to North Kildare, but brings benefits throughout the GDA. I suppose my question is really how did this happen - a pointless waste of money gets into your manifesto, and a project that would actually make a vast amount of people's lives easier is not even mentioned.

I hope you'll understand, at the risk of seeming impolite, a vague commitment from you to do 'all that is possible' really doesn't stack up against a specific commitment in your party's manifesto to waste resources on a pointless project in the West while we stand on a crowded platform in Pearse Street waiting to crush into the next train without hope of additional services as the Loop Line bridge is at full capacity.

This is not about regional development. The West of Ireland gets its 'front loading' of infrastructure. The West coast is paved with airports, and Mayo is peppered with towns that already rail services operating well below capacity. People in the East don't want to move West and see no reason why our infrastructure needs are ignored until they become critical.

What alternative are Fine Gael offering? None, looking at your manifesto commitment to make the unneeded and foolish Western Rail Corridor your priority for rail development.

dermo88

No policy whatsoever in other words. I could repeat my remarks on Fine Gaels past record.....and it does not make for happy reading. For all Fianna Fails faults, failings and incompetence, its record is far better than Fine Gael.

The only document you need to read as regards Fine Gael's opinions on rail transport is their 1984 election manifesto. In Building on reality, they clearly stated "No new investment in the railways", and a commitment to an "Intercity bus network".

I've seen the damage, I remember the records. Every Dubliner, who wants to get from A to B cheaply, and quickly should never ever forgive Fine Gael for what they did, and prevented in the 1980's, irrespective of how broke we were. They could finance farmers and the CAP, they could finance Knock International. But when it came to financing Dublin, it was tough **** sunshine, and the rural areas got the cream in the depths of that dark era.

I have a few choice words from Mr Jim Mitchell

"The railways are an albatros around the taxpayers neck"
"DART is a white elephant"

And they are two. He might be dead, but his policies live on. I suppose one good legacy was the creation of Iarnrod Eireann as a partially seperate company.
__________________________________________________ ______________
Michael Lowry was fired by Fine Gael, but not before.

1. Appointing Mr Eamon Walsh, and firing Mr Dermot O'Leary. Eamon Walsh had absolutely no experience in running a transport company. His appointment divided the CIE board for 9 months.
2. Allowing Esat Digifone to lay cables alongside IE infrastructure. In so doing, the embankments were damaged by the cable laying plough used. Look for some links between Denis O'Brien and Michael Lowry. Coincidence.....I don't think so.
3. The DART to Greystones fiasco. Originally budgeted to cost IEP8.4 Million, it costs IEP20 Million. In 1995, a DART was pushed around Bray Head and brought to Greystones in a pre election publicity stunt.
4. Mr Michael MacDonnell, a former IE executive was to testify at a case where Dermot O'Leary was suing the state as a result of Mr Lowry's actions. He committed suicide not long beforehand.
5. Luas. The halfhearted solution, which is better than nothing, but should have been a DART.

Lowry should answer for this, and more. But hes not answering. Hes being protected. Hes being protected by Fine Gael. The railways have suffered and have had to pay for his incompetence and his deceit. They had to fix the embankments themselves.

On Irelands ONLY rail passenger organisation.

Olivia Mitchell REFUSED to meet them.

Why?

Let Ireland ONLY rail passenger organisation tell you. Not me, go to their website. I won't throw cheap insults, I won't throw in melodramatic words, just go, and see for yourselves. Thats part ONE of my rant.

________________________________________________________________

Part two:

A remark worthy of Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"However, we believe that all such projects must be subject to rigorous cost-benefit analyses based on social, economic and environmental benefits. Such analysis will inform the priority and delivery timetable for the public transport projects outlined in the plan. Fine Gael’s key transport priorities are firstly, to provide all cities and large towns with ample public transport to ensure that traffic congestion is not allowed to deteriorate to the extent that it has in our capital. Secondly, to prioritise a network of road improvements which support and facilitate the development of the National Spatial Strategy and balanced regional development"


Errmmm......whats that Sir Humphrey. In English, please.

That first paragraph wipes out any hope of rail network improvements from Fine Gael, at least on the Mainline Intercity passenger network. When it comes to policy you've got to read between the lines. Politicians never say things directly. They speak indirectly.

My prediction on the arrival of Fine Gael and the rail network.

1. A cost benefit analysis of the rail network.
2. This will be used to justify the end of CIE.
3. Iarnrod Eireann privatised.
4. No retrenchment, but severe cost control and commercial targets imposed, on the basis of the investment made in new rolling stock on Intercity and commuter.
5. Fingers crossed.....the major projects in the Dublin area go ahead, and do not get cancelled as they were between 1982-1995. They will help sustain the construction sector in the event of a downturn in residential and commercial markets.

I could live with that, if it meant IE were commercially focussed to a degree, customer focussed and hungry for success.

The only reason we retained as much of the rail network in Ireland was down to having coalition governments. The idea that any of the network could be removed after the 1960's and 1970's was so unpalatable and unacceptable to the communities on many routes, irrespective of how poor the rail services were. Just imagine if the silly little attempts of "Once a day services" were retained on the likes of Limerick-Claremorris were retained, the communities there would'nt bat an eyelid, the TD's would'nt give a damn, because Sadie, Rover and her son would live rent free at the level crossing cottage at Ballindine, or Ballyglunin or some rotten hamlet. They'd still end up on Bus Eireann, and Iarnrod Eireann would be a joke in those areas.

Its a case of being against railways that do badly, that are mismanaged, that are run as a social employment scheme for the unemployable instead of customers. This is what much of the old Iarnrod Eireann was about, and to a degree....still is.

Railfreight has been decimated, not that Irish conditions are appropriate to its development, but we would like to know who buys the land and where the money for that land goes.

Victor

Haven't I read this thread already?

markf909

I would say if you want to let FG know what you think of their ‘ideas’ there’s only a few days to polling day. If you don’t give them some feedback, they ain’t going to know what you think. I found the contact details I needed here.

Done, i've sent off an email, hopefully I may get more than a vague, it needs to improve!

Darren Scully's reply reminds me of the chancers running in a students union campaign.

markf909

Well my reply was a Word Doc with a list of questions that were asked in the Dail :rolleyes:

My query was similar to Schuhart but the reply was wonderfully generic.

FG are completely hopeless.

Zebra3

And they wonder why they can't get votes in the Dublin area..... :rolleyes:

Owen

Am I the only person who saw WRC, and thought World Rally Championship, instead of Western Rail Corridor?

Schuhart

ned78 wrote:

Am I the only person who saw WRC, and thought World Rally Championship, instead of Western Rail Corridor?

I guess you must be new to these parts, Pilgrim.

monument

Victor wrote:

Haven't I read this thread already?

I glad I'm not the only one who thinks such.

dermo88 wrote:

As for railfreight, thats not going to benefit anyone, and its not relevant to this board.

Victor

monument wrote:

dermo88 likes copying and pasting from other websites.

dermo88

Thats because its originally my work in the first place. I am not going to plagiarise anyone else. As well as that, I'm dermo88 everywhere else I post, not just here alone. Those posts were originally made in Platform11, and Irishrailwaynews.

Bards

It wasn't Eircell but it was Denis O'brien's Esat Digiphone.. they did a deal with the company that got the contract to redo the signalling system and at the same time to lay fibre on their embankments...and guess what... the Fibre was laid for Digiphone.. but a complete balls up was made of the new signalling system

and the rest is hisstory

dermo88

The rest is in Michael Lowrys house.

Ask for Denis O'Brien.

No wrongdoing.

I wonder.

Metrobest

Gosh, I really hope Fine Gael don't get into government, because if they do, it's a case of "hello, Rainbow", "bye-bye Transport 21".

Just imagine the squabbling that would take place under a rainbow coalition:

1. Trevor Sargeant vetoing new motorways, demanding rail links to Letterkenny.
   
2. Roisin Shorthall putting the brakes any future elevated rail line for Dublin, while pushing for subsidies that would bloat the CIE monopoly.
   
3. Fine Gael wanting no subsidies and competition in the bus market. Labour not wanting any competition

.
And these divisions are rife not only in transport policy, but also extend to a range of other economic and social policies that also affect how we live and work, which naturally affects how we travel.

A rainbow coalition that can't even govern itself is not a coalition that I want to see governing Ireland.

For all their faults, and they have many, our current coalition has delivered a decade of prosperity, made our economy the envy of the world, and is delivering new roads and rail lines that will drastically improve our lives.

Don't risk the rainbow

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

Just imagine the squabbling that would take place under a rainbow coalition:

You're dead right! Imagine the confusion if one partner in government wanted more buses while another wanted more competition. Or if one wanted a dublin transport authority but the other didn't want that authority to have control over land use and planning. Or one wanted a light rail network but the other didn't want the retailers in the city centre to suffer so we ended up with two seperate lines.

You've got to be kidding - FF & PDs have been pathetic in government. You can point at FG and tell me they were crap over a decade ago but FF (& PD) are crap right now. Whatever little they have done for Dublin, it hasn't even been fast enough to keep up, never mind actually improving. And don't get me started on the other cities.

Chris_533976

Tho I'm gonna vote for FF, purely because they're the only group that we know are committed (albeit disgracefully late) to finishing all the interurbans etc without squabbling.

Get the essential infrastructure done, give FF one more term to do it (as they're actually doing it, finally), then get someone else in next time.

markpb

Chris_533976 wrote:

Tho I'm gonna vote for FF, purely because they're the only group that we know are committed (albeit disgracefully late) to finishing all the interurbans etc without squabbling.

Get the essential infrastructure done, give FF one more term to do it (as they're actually doing it, finally), then get someone else in next time.

It'll be great to know that in five years time we'll be able to whizz between cities and around the country. Of course when you get to those cities, you won't be able to get anywhere because there'll be no useable public transport.

dermo88

The last thing Ireland needs are Gordon, George, Bungle and Zippy in charge of our transport system.

Give us the corrupt ones who cream 5% off the top on construction contracts, instead of the honest ones who aspire and talk and get nothing done.

I would not be so arrogant about Irelands wealth. Do not ever take it for granted. There was the same kind of crazy optimism in the air when a few compressed Flintstones were found off Kinsale in the 1970's.

If any party can manage through the deflation of the Irish property market without seriously damaging the Irish economy through sensible macroeconomic policies, then they are worth a vote. That is by far the biggest threat that the economy faces. It can affect the whole economy, badly. The last downturn in construction lasted 14 years.

In the 1980's, Ireland had the option of running up to Maurice Doyle in the Central Bank. He signed off a nice form, which was sent to Sandyford Printing Works, where a couple of hundred million were printed off.

We don't have that now. We have to look to the original Tigers on tips on how to tame the Tiger when its full.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

It'll be great to know that in five years time we'll be able to whizz between cities and around the country. Of course when you get to those cities, you won't be able to get anywhere because there'll be no useable public transport.

See, that's just not factually accurate. By 2012, Transport 21 will be almost completed and Dublin will have a metro system as fine as you'll see anywhere in the world. Motorways will connnect all our main cities. That's real progress and it's happening right now, under Bertie and Michael's watch.

As for the towns outside Dublin, they need a shake up of their bus services, which requires a government that has the courage to face down trade unions and monopolies. Now let's see... Who would be better to face down a monopoly: Michael McDowell or Pat Rabitte?

And Dermo88 is right about the economy - we have to become more productive and exercise fiscal discipline. I simply wouldn't trust Enda Kenny, Pat Rabitte and Trevor Sargeant to run a multi-billlion euro economy in uncertain times.

If I were running the FF/PD campaign I would be hammering home a simple slogan about the opposition in the dying days of the campaign.

"Can't govern themselves.
Can't govern Ireland."

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

See, that's just not factually accurate. By 2012, Transport 21 will be almost completed and Dublin will have a metro system as fine as you'll see anywhere in the world. Motorways will connnect all our main cities. That's real progress and it's happening right now, under Bertie and Michael's watch.

Unless you've seen a some secret maps I missed, we won't have a metro system - we'll have one metro line. Just one. One line does not a system make. It will integrate with two Luas lines that were pretty much at capacity from the day they were opened and with no real way to upgrade. It will integrate with a Dart system which, might, with aid of the interconnector (if it gets built) resemble a decent city train line instead of a train to the beach at Bray. If we had all that right now, it might be enough. Will it be enough if Dublin continues to grow for the next 5 years or will we end up with another system which can't cope from the day it opens?

As for the towns outside Dublin, they need a shake up of their bus services, which requires a government that has the courage to face down trade unions and monopolies. Now let's see... Who would be better to face down a monopoly: Michael McDowell or Pat Rabitte?

What bus services should be shaken up? The only other city in this country with a city bus service is Belfast. The others have Bus Eireann driven commuter services. It's also nothing to do with unions, I'm not sure where you got that idea?

And Dermo88 is right about the economy - we have to become more productive and exercise fiscal discipline. I simply wouldn't trust Enda Kenny, Pat Rabitte and Trevor Sargeant to run a multi-billlion euro economy in uncertain times.

It's very easy to look at Ireland and say 'wow, they have a great economy'. That's fine if you don't look at the people living in that economy, spending huge amounts of time commuting to work. It's fine if you don't see the years of ignoring public transport completely, doing it badly when they stopped ignoring it and suddenly finding that they can't build any decent attempt at public transport because of years of bad (and corrupt) planning.

Chris_533976

markpb wrote:

What bus services should be shaken up? The only other city in this country with a city bus service is Belfast. The others have Bus Eireann driven commuter services. It's also nothing to do with unions, I'm not sure where you got that idea?

That's the point. Cork, Limerick and Galway (possibly Waterford too) need control of their bus networks a la Dublin Bus.

As it stands, BE don't seem to care too much about these commuter services, and independent control may bring about more routes and more frequent routes. Integration is key, and a shake-up is needed to stop this whole culture of "BE and IE etc are competitors". They must all work TOGETHER, not seperately.

Metrobest

markpb wrote:

Unless you've seen a some secret maps I missed, we won't have a metro system...

It's very easy to look at Ireland and say 'wow, they have a great economy'. That's fine if you don't look at the people living in that economy, spending huge amounts of time commuting to work. It's fine if you don't see the years of ignoring public transport completely, doing it badly when they stopped ignoring it and suddenly finding that they can't build any decent attempt at public transport because of years of bad (and corrupt) planning.

Mark, we'll have two metro lines: MetroNorth and MetroWest. Along with the new luas lines and the two DART lines, that constitutes a pretty good system - not the best in the world, but a world away from the system we have now. Don't risk this plan by making Olivia Mitchell minister for transport. She's already on record calling the interconnector a waste of money.

Ireland's second city, Cork, is really a large town by continental European standards. Galway and Limerick are medium-sized towns. In Holland, Waterford would be considered a quaint village. Nevertheless, Cork, Limerick and the like deserve a decent bus service and they're not getting that from the CIE monopoly, Bus Eireann, that serves them. So that situation needs to change.

And look, Luas is so successful that deprived suburbs in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, have taken to advertising it in their stations!

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

Mark, we'll have two metro lines: MetroNorth and MetroWest. Along with the new luas lines and the two DART lines, that constitutes a pretty good system - not the best in the world, but a world away from the system we have now. Don't risk this plan by making Olivia Mitchell minister for transport. She's already on record calling the interconnector a waste of money.

Metro West isn't planned to be completed till after 2014 and I'd be surprised if it managed even that. That leaves Metro North and two Luas lines. Do you honestly believe those lines, not running on rail alignments like the Green line, conflicting with traffic in a city who's traffic department refuse to give running priority to the existing Luas lines and trying to serve unplanned sprawling housing estates with low density, will have the speed and capacity to be able to cope? Do you think they'll be enough after another five years of growth?

Anyway I notice you've already downgraded your expectations from "as fine as you'll see anywhere in the world" to "not the best in the world, but a world away from the system we have now" so I'll consider that a minor victory :P

Ireland's second city, Cork, is really a large town by continental European standards. Galway and Limerick are medium-sized towns. In Holland, Waterford would be considered a quaint village. Nevertheless, Cork, Limerick and the like deserve a decent bus service and they're not getting that from the CIE monopoly, Bus Eireann, that serves them. So that situation needs to change.

I won't argue with that (I don't think they're proper cities either ) but they definitely deserve better than they have now if they're to grow and not end up like Dublin. But the only thing stopping them getting that service has been a lack of government willpower and money. There are no management or union problems, just a government that dwaddles and constantly plays catch up.

And look, Luas is so successful that deprived suburbs in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, have taken to advertising it in their stations!

Kuala Lumpur - an exciting new development brought to you by IrishDeveloperCorp and only 40 minutes from Dublin!

Metrobest

In Ireland we benchmark ourselves against old Europe, which has had decades, indeed centuries, of sustained prosperity. The reality for Ireland, however, is that we have more in common with the Asian tiger economies insofar as we have experienced rapid economic growth and infrastrcture that has struggled to keep pace.

Just like Dublin, Tiger cities experience growing pains, as evidenced by these pictures I've taken.

Singapore is building a new inner circle line metro, building on the success of its existing three lines that serve a population of 4 MILLION. It continues to charge motorists driving into its high rise centre by charging an electronic toll.

And in Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur's monorail makes little difference to the nasty traffic in this booming city. Even on its worst day, the traffic in Dublin is a breeze compared to KL's.

dermo88

Olivia Mitchell is a clueless cow, she is about as much use as Shay Brennan.

LUAS is the Malay word for Wide, implying the widest coverage. The ad you are looking at is for Digi, a mobile phone company. Taman Mirhaja (Cheras), its a working class suburb, but its hardly deprived.

Lets just say, take a Malaysian to the most dangerous part of Dublin or Limerick, and an Irishman to the most dangerous part of Kuala Lumpur (KL) or Johor Bahru (JB) at around midnight, leave them to find their way back in 1 hour, and see which one survives intact.

I'll take KL easily. JB.....no chance.

And there are even more venal corrupt little ****ers in charge over there, they make Fianna Fail look like altarboys.

Metrobest

dermo88 wrote:

Olivia Mitchell is a clueless cow, she is about as much use as Shay Brennan.

LUAS is the Malay word for Wide, implying the widest coverage. The ad you are looking at is for Digi, a mobile phone company. Taman Mirhaja (Cheras), its a working class suburb, but its hardly deprived.

Lets just say, take a Malaysian to the most dangerous part of Dublin or Limerick, and an Irishman to the most dangerous part of Kuala Lumpur (KL) or Johor Bahru (JB) at around midnight, leave them to find their way back in 1 hour, and see which one survives intact.

I'll take KL easily. JB.....no chance.

And there are even more venal corrupt little ****ers in charge over there, they make Fianna Fail look like altarboys.

Yeah, maybe not deprived by Malaysian standards but I can't say I was too pleased to take the wrong line and end up there Dermo.

I thought it was an interesting though - the modernity of the LRT station and the ugly tower block in the background, and of course the luas ad. Didn't know what it was for but I kept seeing it all over the place.

JB i've been there.. and survived the gauntlet of touts but I'd prefer a walk through Limerick anyday .:D

But the only thing stopping them getting that service has been a lack of government willpower and money. There are no management or union problems, just a government that dwaddles and constantly plays catch up.

That's part of it for sure, but I also blame Bus Eireann. Members of this forum have complained bitterly about buses being ridiculously late, sitting for ages at termini while passengers get soaked in the rain and drivers being rude. Those are management problems, not something money can fix. I don't feel that lavishing more money onto BE, like Roisin Shorthall would do, will solve those problems.

What we need is a vision for the future, like Singapore has. An example being that Singapore designs its metro stations with phantom underground walkways that can connect seamlessly into new buildings. That's what I call forward planning.

We, on the other hand, are building a metro station at O'Connell Bridge that won't connect with Ireland's busiest station, Tara Street. And do you hear even a whimper of protest from Fine Gael? Of course not. :rolleyes:

dermo88

Thanks for picking Singapore as THE example of best International Practice, but thats where the machine has overcome man. Its the economy, economy, must succeed, must win at all costs, never lose, must come first. Thats the example of forward planning. Their Land Transport Authority has clearly defined targets going on "what happens next". "When we get to 2 Million, start construction of Line A and B so we are ready for 2.5 Million, at 2.75 Million population, start Line C, so we are ready for the next step.

This is the way we should be going for our smaller cities, with clearly defined targets for development, older buildings selected and prepared for renewal, expansion and improvement, and targetted land development.

The plans are ready 10 years in advance, so its a simple case of go in and build it. Although, its not perfect, they did have the Nicholl Road Collapse. Noone needs to own a car in that city state. Anyone who owns a car is either being a snob, or they have a large family, which justifies owning one. Or they are stuck living in Johor Bahru. Public transport is not seen as the travel option for pensioners, paupers and refugees.

Their planning laws are different, a bit oppressive one may say. "Granny, we are moving you, you've been here 50 years, but Gahmen say must go lah, new HDB (Housing Development Board) Apartment, lump sum, and out". Land is so scarce there that every inch of it has to be used. Buildings last between 30 and 50 years at the very most, at which point they are knocked down, and something taller is built. Its a continuous cycle of birth, death and renewal. A Dub can go back in time 40 or 50 years and will easily find points of reference from their childhood, and find familiar landmarks, the home they were born, the hospital they were born, or where their parents were, whereas over there, its gone. Even when you snuff it, its not RIP. You'll be in the ground 20-25 years and the Gahmen CPO the land. You'll be dug up, crunched up, cremated and put into your own HDB urn in the afterlife.

Thats Singapore under the PAP, Peoples Action Party, One party state. We'd never tolerate them in Ireland. They make the PD's look socialist.

Their logo is reminiscent of the British Union of Fascists, but be careful, Lee, Lee and Sons will file a lawsuit for joking about it. Anyway, I'll go back next month, those nice Singapore Army boys can interrogate me

You'll never see a greater contrast in 2 km between Singapore Woodlands checkpoint and Johor Baru.

Johor Bahru, population 1.5 Million. Famously described by Singapores Lee Kwan Yew as "Full of shootings and muggings", Singapores Law and Order system ensured that JB became the social sewage outfloor for Singapore, its place of refuge for the Triads, its place to go clubbing and get off your tits on assorted amphetamines and weed, and that it became a city about as appealing as a dose of the clap. You'll know bad planning when you see that place. One of my IDEAL places of exile for rail transport lobbyists for the WRC.....they'll learn what true inadequacy means there, they'll be screaming social justice all the way, and if they scream loud enough, hopefully a nice stay in Pudu prison will wake them up a bit.......bunch of assholes.

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

That's part of it for sure, but I also blame Bus Eireann. Members of this forum have complained bitterly about buses being ridiculously late, sitting for ages at termini while passengers get soaked in the rain and drivers being rude. Those are management problems, not something money can fix. I don't feel that lavishing more money onto BE, like Roisin Shorthall would do, will solve those problems.

I've yet to see a bus driver do anything to cause a bus to be (appreciably) late. Back in the boring old real world, lateness is caused by traffic. Traffic can only be beaten by decent bus infrastructure and enforcement of that infrastructure. Neither of those can be done by Bus Eireann, only by central and local government. Those arguements stand true for Dublin Bus as well by the way.

You might be right about the other issues (timetabling and rudeness) but they're hardly primary issues for cities (or towns if you like) which have a barely present public transport system.

We, on the other hand, are building a metro station at O'Connell Bridge that won't connect with Ireland's busiest station, Tara Street. And do you hear even a whimper of protest from Fine Gael? Of course not. :rolleyes:

Actually (and this has been explained to you before ), if the Interconnector is built, Tara St. is unlikely to be the busiest station in the city anymore. Spencer Dock will serve the IFSC and Stephens Green will serve the south city centre. Those are reasonable assumptions. If they're right, having the Metro interconnect with the Dart at Stephens Green and the Luas network at O'Connell st an acceptable compromise.

Zoney

markpb wrote:

I've yet to see a bus driver do anything to cause a bus to be (appreciably) late. Back in the boring old real world, lateness is caused by traffic. Traffic can only be beaten by decent bus infrastructure and enforcement of that infrastructure. Neither of those can be done by Bus Eireann, only by central and local government. Those arguements stand true for Dublin Bus as well by the way.

Maybe not the drivers, but the management insist on having the timetabled quantities of buses, resulting in them all being late throughout most of the day after rush hour (of course this can manifest itself as seeming like buses leaving early, and can lead to the "two buses at once" syndrome). Instead the buses out on the road should be used to service the nearest timetabled departure, even if that means waiting 5-7 minutes at the initial stop. That would result in some buses "theoretically" not ever arriving, but would result in schedules getting back on track after rush hour, rather than have buses "essentially" not arrive from an observer standpoint. You could rely on buses departing as scheduled for most of the day.

As I pointed out, there is currently the ludicrous situation of 45 minute gaps in service on a 15 minute clockface timetable even outside of rush hour.

You can certainly run things to take account of traffic rather than pretend it doesn't exist.

Schuhart

I think I drew some blood. How’s about this exchange? (Incidently, the posts here’s referring to on politics.ie are probably here. How he manages to take my posts there (and here) to mean I’m an FF supporter is beyond me.)

Email sent by schuhart today

You may be interested in this thread on boards.ie, where the inadequacy of FG transport policies are being discussed, including your responses.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055094421

I have to say I’m a little stunned at FG not only committing to the Western Rail Corridor, but seemingly thinking that the GDA can be fobbed off by the reopening of the Phoenix Park tunnel – which does nothing to address capacity problems on the Loop Line Bridge.

FG seems to have swallowed the West of Ireland mindset hook, line and sinker. If you’re wondering why people in Dublin and the Mid East are not seeing you as an alternative to FF, it’s because you are not offering an alternative.

It looks like my only option is to reluctantly vote for FF, acknowledging that they have at least made some investment in the capital, in the faint hope that the Interconnector might arrive in 2015 as distinct from FG offering no sign of any commitment to the city whatsoever.

Response by Darren Scully

I have spotted your posts on politics.ie. It is obvious that you are a FF supporter. Why do you waste my time and yours by sending these emails. I am a good guy who works hard and wants the best for Kildare North and my country. I have a young dedicated team of canvassers who believe strongly in what we are trying to achieve. I could spend my free time playing with my two small children, but no I spend my spare time looking after other peoples interests. Look at the bigger picture in life.

Take care of yourself
Darren

Navan Junction

Darren Scully wrote:

we are in support of T21, so there was no need to reprint the whole document in our manifesto.

Well, there's your problem, straight up...........

If you wanted to focus your vote on commuter issues, why would you vote Fianna Fáil-lite??

I had really expected that there would have been a real effort made on transport by all parties in this election

FF may have been a disaster for commuters, but why oh why could FG/Lab not be bothered in even putting together something unique, or different.?

I still can't get over the fact that the only project in the FG manifesto was the WRC - that really just killed the election based on commuting issues

Navan Junction

And that poxy €1 fare gimmick was always going to be a winner in Navan - it ran out somewhere in the cow-fields between Dunshaughlin and the Lismullin henge

What town/candidate was the consideration for the 25 mile radius, I wonder?

Metrobest

dermo88 wrote:

Thanks for picking Singapore as THE example of best International Practice, but thats where the machine has overcome man. Its the economy, economy, must succeed, must win at all costs, never lose, must come first. Thats the example of forward planning. Their Land Transport Authority has clearly defined targets going on "what happens next". "When we get to 2 Million, start construction of Line A and B so we are ready for 2.5 Million, at 2.75 Million population, start Line C, so we are ready for the next step.

This is the way we should be going for our smaller cities, with clearly defined targets for development, older buildings selected and prepared for renewal, expansion and improvement, and targetted land development.

The plans are ready 10 years in advance, so its a simple case of go in and build it. Although, its not perfect, they did have the Nicholl Road Collapse. Noone needs to own a car in that city state. Anyone who owns a car is either being a snob, or they have a large family, which justifies owning one. Or they are stuck living in Johor Bahru. Public transport is not seen as the travel option for pensioners, paupers and refugees.

Their planning laws are different, a bit oppressive one may say. "Granny, we are moving you, you've been here 50 years, but Gahmen say must go lah, new HDB (Housing Development Board) Apartment, lump sum, and out". Land is so scarce there that every inch of it has to be used. Buildings last between 30 and 50 years at the very most, at which point they are knocked down, and something taller is built. Its a continuous cycle of birth, death and renewal. A Dub can go back in time 40 or 50 years and will easily find points of reference from their childhood, and find familiar landmarks, the home they were born, the hospital they were born, or where their parents were, whereas over there, its gone. Even when you snuff it, its not RIP. You'll be in the ground 20-25 years and the Gahmen CPO the land. You'll be dug up, crunched up, cremated and put into your own HDB urn in the afterlife.

Thats Singapore under the PAP, Peoples Action Party, One party state. We'd never tolerate them in Ireland. They make the PD's look socialist.

Their logo is reminiscent of the British Union of Fascists, but be careful, Lee, Lee and Sons will file a lawsuit for joking about it. Anyway, I'll go back next month, those nice Singapore Army boys can interrogate me

You'll never see a greater contrast in 2 km between Singapore Woodlands checkpoint and Johor Baru.

Johor Bahru, population 1.5 Million. Famously described by Singapores Lee Kwan Yew as "Full of shootings and muggings", Singapores Law and Order system ensured that JB became the social sewage outfloor for Singapore, its place of refuge for the Triads, its place to go clubbing and get off your tits on assorted amphetamines and weed, and that it became a city about as appealing as a dose of the clap. You'll know bad planning when you see that place. One of my IDEAL places of exile for rail transport lobbyists for the WRC.....they'll learn what true inadequacy means there, they'll be screaming social justice all the way, and if they scream loud enough, hopefully a nice stay in Pudu prison will wake them up a bit.......bunch of assholes.

And I love their buses with televisions. If you're going to be stuck in traffic, let's make it interesting with some entertainment.

When you are in Singapore, and if you haven't already been there, I would highly recommend a visit to the URA gallery which is off South Bridge Road near the Ann Siang area. It has masterplans for future development, lots of information on architecture and the MRT system. The scale models of the island's HDB blocks are really cool.

It seems Singapore has developed a nose for good architecture.

dermo88

While Ireland was called the Celtic Tiger, and we admire other cities/countries, I must emphasise that they had it relatively easy over there as city planners compared to most Irish cities. Its not even 200 years old. Their plumbing systems are less than 50 years old, and are completely mapped. They've had 40 years to plan on success. It was a fishing village while Dublin was the second city in an Empire.

They've had one party in power, one family, a democratic dictatorship if you like. A very competent legalised dictatorship, and a compliant population who would'nt fart crooked.

If you live in Ballyfermot, Inchicore, and much of the Northside in a former council house, near the tracks, under a PAP Govt, your house would be demolished, the land CPO'ed, and a 20 floor council tower block put in its place. Now, that sounds worse than it actually is, since they are hardly the cesspits of crime and deprivation that they became in Ireland/UK/France....80% of people live and own public housing....see my reference on a compliant population. Skangers don't exist.

They know what they are at over there. We could, but circumstances are against Ireland doing the same.

Lets see.

Most Irish city centres are hundreds of years old, characterised by narrow streets, preservation orders, old buildings, and consequently, the long term solution is unpalatable if their quality is to be improved. Ireland wants to keep its old buildings, there is no way we can go down the road of the 1950's-1970's, where much of our old heritage was lost.

I also point out that if there is corruption in Singapore, its legalised corruption. The economic system is too complex to explain, but it should really be called Lee and Lee Ltd, and even joking about it is enough to get your arse sued off under their defamation laws.

The same with Ireland. There is corruption in Ireland, but no tribunal can completely prove it, and they obtain the occasional "fall guy" like Liam Lawlor, Ray Burke and Beverley Cooper Flynn, who were small compared to those on the go at the moment on the M3 contract in Meath, and in any case, anyone ever found out for corruption was being stabbed in the back for backing the wrong horse before.....after all, all 3 of the above were supporters of General Haughey.

markf909

I guess it is only fair I lash this up, this is direct from Olivia herself

Fine Gael's position on the Interconnector Tunnel is as follows:

Fine Gael is fully committed to all aspects of Transport 21. We accept in
particular that we need to massively increase the range and frequency of
public transport service on offer. The Interconnector Tunnel is a
fundamental and extremely important part of the Tranport 21 plan and Fine
Gael is fully committed to its development. Fine Gael will develop this
project in Government.

Chris_533976

Do any of the major parties actually know what their own transport policies are??

Schuhart

Does "Fine Gael will develop this project in Government" mean delivery by at least the deadline stated in Transport 21? Or does 'develop' mean 'here's an architect's drawing of a hole in the ground?

strassenwolf

Navan Junction wrote:

Well, there's your problem, straight up...........

If you wanted to focus your vote on commuter issues, why would you vote Fianna Fáil-lite??

I had really expected that there would have been a real effort made on transport by all parties in this election

FF may have been a disaster for commuters, but why oh why could FG/Lab not be bothered in even putting together something unique, or different.?

I still can't get over the fact that the only project in the FG manifesto was the WRC - that really just killed the election based on commuting issues

Sadly, I suspect you may be saying much the same thing in 5 years time, when in all likelihood there will still be no rail link between Dublin and Navan (or the WRC, for that matter).

I predict that the Navan link will be undergoing yet another feasibility study in the run-up to the 2012 election.

However, back to the election just past. Did the Navan-Drogheda-Dublin possibility, on which P11 did some work and which seemed very sensible, become an election issue? And is it still on the cards? It looks like a good idea, while we wait for all the feasibility studies on the direct Navan-Dublin route to be carried out, talked about, and then binned.

Navan Junction

strassenwolf wrote:

Sadly, I suspect you may be saying much the same thing in 5 years time, when in all likelihood there will still be no rail link between Dublin and Navan (or the WRC, for that matter).

Quite possibly

strassenwolf wrote:

However, back to the election just past. Did the Navan-Drogheda-Dublin possibility, on which P11 did some work and which seemed very sensible, become an election issue? And is it still on the cards? It looks like a good idea, while we wait for all the feasibility studies on the direct Navan-Dublin route to be carried out, talked about, and then binned.

Navan Drogheda has been talked about in Meath for years, going back to the 1970's, less so outside the county. It was never on the cards during the election.

Basically, there is a fear amongst politicians, Chambers etc, that the possability of the direct link will be undermined by pushing Navan Drogheda.

However, they see Navan Drogheda as Plan B if Plan A (Navan Clonsilla) flops. The Navan Drogheda line isn't well known amongst the county's newer residents, but the natives know all about it

Regarding my comments above, I wasn't defending FF in anyway - I was merely pointing out that the alternative government added nothing to the debate.

We all know that FF have been poor on public transport delivery - it doesn't take the opposition to point that out. What we needed from the alternative government was a real policy document with real plans, not a simple "we support Transport 21"

If FF/PD failed to deliver on transport, then so too did the alternative coalition fail to even deliver a debate on it

monument

Well said.

strassenwolf

Yes, well said NJ. Very informative reply.

It's a pity that Navan-Drogheda-Dublin can't be pushed by the politicians and the chambers of commerce, in case it might damage the case for Navan-Dunboyne-Dublin. From the pictures I've seen of the Navan-Drogheda section it looks like it could be up and running in a matter of months, if the will was there to provide some sort of service into Dublin from Navan. Long term though, Navan-Dunboyne-Dublin would seem to provide better opportunities for a better service than trying to bring trains in along the fairly congested Northern line.

In other words, a service, followed after a number of years by a better service.

With regard to FG's lack of alternatives to T21, it has to be said that T21 promised 34 billion of investment in transport up to 2015. This is an unprecedented commitment and very hard for any party to oppose without being seen as being opposed to investment in transport (which no party is).

On the other hand, despite this big commitment, it remains to be seen how much of this money is spent on the various public transport projects between now and 2015. In the Dublin area alone, the metrowest is likely to face some opposition (on business case grounds, etc.), the Lucan LUAS is likely to face opposition (because of duplication, etc.), and the interconnector is likely to face opposition (on a number of fronts - underuse of capacity, trees at St. Stephen's Green, cost, etc.). And of course Dublin-Navan was included in the cost of T21, but may not actually happen. Outside of Dublin, the WRC is an obvious candidate for delays.

By 2012 we will hopefully know how much of T21 was a well thought out plan, and how much of it was a PR stunt. And maybe at that stage it will be easier for opposition parties to come out with alternatives.