Why are the PD's singled out for criticism all the time?

darkman2

Hi,

Just wondering (i am not a PD supporter) why Irish people seem to vent so much anger at the PD's constantly. What have they done wrong? Why are they always the whipping boys at elections? It would appear to me that FF should be getting far more stick then the PD's but they are not. I dont have any issue with the PD's but its clear some seem to. Why? I dont understand the sheer hatred toward this party that comes across on most of these forums. I know alot of it stems from SF supporters - a party rightly identified as having a thuggish element and a marxist outlook - IMO they deserve far more stick then the PD's and so do Fianna Fail. I wonder is it still the ususal begrudgery the Irish are renowned for. I mean how dare a party go out of its way to support the middle classes.:rolleyes:

mikemac

Good question.
In theory, the PD's should have loads of support.
We have loads of people with 3rd level qualifications in good jobs and would probably support PD policies, like low tax, privatisation, stand up to public service unions, etc.

I'm not saying the PD's deliver any of this.
It's just there is a huge demographic that should potentially support a party like this.

edit:spelling

mike65

I tend to think is essentially a reflection of the leftish bias in the media here, the PDs will eat your babies mentality. Labour could have us in sh1te and you'd still find corners of RTE blaming the PDs for something or other.

Mike.

RalphCifaretto

Anyone who thinks there is a leftish bias in the irish media needs there head examined.

The_Minister

The PDs are the only party in Ireland who will stand up and say "profit is not a dirty word".
They don't clothe their economics in social democratic lingo, or pretend to be socialists. They come out and say it.
Also, many on the left blame the PDs for the rightward shift in Ireland over the last 25 years, as the PDs were the first party to espouse the idea that tax cuts could pay for themselves, and help the economy.
Also, the PDs were an unwelcome to the Irish political scene because:
1). FF didn't like them because much of the originsl PD TDs had been kicked out of FF for standing up to Haughey. (They were meant to be good, quiet little independent FF'ers until a new leader brough them back). FF didn't like them highlighting that Haughey was weeding so many good people out.
2). FG hated them because the PDs took their votes, and made it harder for them to come to power.
3). Labour hated them because the PDs were set up as a typical European Liberal party, and Labour had always recieved the liberal vote in Ireland. (This shift never came about, as the PDs have always spoken more about economics, so that few people are familiar with their social policies).

Add all that to the fact that no politician ever likes a new party, and that the PDS had several unfortunate disasters over the years (suggesting a constitution without reference to God etc), and the PDs were always going to garner a certain amount of acrimoney. Read "Breaking the Mould" for the full story (you may even have gotten a free copy, the PDs were giving them out).


EDIT: There is also the problem of the media. Most media is biased one way or another in this country, and the lines were drawn before the PDs ever existed, so when the PDs were formed, they went for the throat. Even the Late Late Show was against them.

darkman2

RalphCifaretto wrote:

Anyone who thinks there is a leftish bias in the irish media needs there head examined.

Of course there is leftish bias in the Irish media.

jmayo

It might have something to do with the mentality that everything should be privatised and competition is the answer to everything.
Yeah that is why we now have no investment in the telecomms infrastructure.
Look at the state of the privatised water boards and the state of the rail network in the UK, and the fact that railtrack have to be shored up.
That is the future the PDs want for Ireland.

On the other hand it could be because your leader is a total muppet who is arrogant, publicity seeking, and only shuts his mounth long enough to prepare the other foot for entry.

Oh and what happened to their promise to keep tabs on FF.
McDougals favourite song over the last few weeks must have been "shoud I stay or should I go now"...

The best comment to describe him is...
"he is like a lighthouse in the Bog of Allen, brilliant but useless".

Avns1s

darkman2 wrote:

Hi,

Just wondering (i am not a PD supporter) why Irish people seem to vent so much anger at the PD's constantly. What have they done wrong? Why are they always the whipping boys at elections? It would appear to me that FF should be getting far more stick then the PD's but they are not. I dont have any issue with the PD's but its clear some seem to. Why? I dont understand the sheer hatred toward this party that comes across on most of these forums. I know alot of it stems from SF supporters - a party rightly identified as having a thuggish element and a marxist outlook - IMO they deserve far more stick then the PD's and so do Fianna Fail. I wonder is it still the ususal begrudgery the Irish are renowned for. I mean how dare a party go out of its way to support the middle classes.:rolleyes:

Well darkman, I would be critical of the PD's and TBH I'd be a lot more critical of SF so that's your theory about the sources out the window.

The PDs are gentically linked to FF. They have supported FF right through the past 10 years. They have set themselves up as moral guardians but in essence, would support FF through anything. I'm not taken in by the semantics of the past week and other times when the PDs go through their "will we, wont we" theatrical routines.

They are un-necessary in Irish politics and maybe after this election they will get the message and finish up back within FF which IMHO will be their ultimate fate.

It's also hard to say a whole lot of good about their role in government. Mary Harney was all talk when in Enterprise Trade and Employment, but in reality, she did feck all for her brief. The Celtic Tiger did her job for her. She has been poor in the health portfolio.

Add to this McDowells ineptitude as Minister for Justice and their unbridled arrogance and you have my reason for hatred towards them. I would expect variations of this to be shared by a few.

Hobbes

The only thing I have noticed wrong so far in the PD run up to the election is the material.

For example. Every other piece of crap we have gotten in the door is promises of what that particular party plans to do. With the PD material (we got 4 of them, each different) were basically cartoons referring to other parties as crocodiles intent on eating you and your money. No promises just a kind of "dont vote for those retards" (sic).

Anyone who argues that you should pick them because they aren't as bad as the others is probably not worth picking.

RalphCifaretto

darkman2 wrote:

Of course there is leftish bias in the Irish media.

Are you actually serious or is that sarcasm?

darkman2

Avns1s wrote:

Well darkman, I would be critical of the PD's and TBH I'd be a lot more critical of SF so that's your theory about the sources out the window.

The PDs are gentically linked to FF. They have supported FF right through the past 10 years. They have set themselves up as moral guardians but in essence, would support FF through anything. I'm not taken in by the semantics of the past week and other times when the PDs go through their "will we, wont we" theatrical routines.

They are un-necessary in Irish politics and maybe after this election they will get the message and finish up back within FF which IMHO will be their ultimate fate.

It's also hard to say a whole lot of good about their role in government. Mary Harney was all talk when in Enterprise Trade and Employment, but in reality, she did feck all for her brief. The Celtic Tiger did her job for her. She has been poor in the health portfolio.

Add to this McDowells ineptitude as Minister for Justice and their unbridled arrogance and you have my reason for hatred towards them. I would expect variations of this to be shared by a few.

I think you will find the tirade of hatred toward McDowell really started when he began rightfully exposing SF criminality as he knew existed through Garda sources. Why do I get the impression that, in fact, he had more balls as Justice minister then anyone who would be put up for the portfolio by the opposition? Maybe its a case that in this country you need someone arrogant and outspoke as Justice Minister?

But my real point is why there is no level playing feild with FF on this because it is definately the case that the PD's are getting disproportionate abuse atm compared to Fianna Fail.

darkman2

jmayo wrote:

On the other hand it could be because your leader is a total muppet "...

What do you mean 'your leader'. Ive nothing to do with the PD's. Im making an observation that does not seem to have dawned on many yet.

jmayo

darkman2 wrote:

I think you will find the tirade of hatred toward McDowell really started when he began rightfully exposing SF criminality as he knew existed through Garda sources. Why do I get the impression that, in fact, he had more balls as finance minister then anyone who would be put up for the portfolio by the opposition? Maybe its a case that in this country you need someone arrogant and outspoke as Justice Minister?

But my real point is why there is no level playing feild with FF on this because it is definately the case that the PD's are getting disproportionate abuse atm compared to Fianna Fail.

I knew it was him that was finance minister :mad:
Non wonder biffo looked so grumpy some times snce McDowell pulling the strings from underneeth or behind.

darkman2

RalphCifaretto wrote:

Are you actually serious or is that sarcasm?

Im serious......really i am. Definate left wing bias in RTE - their a state company - does that give you a clue;)

Avns1s

darkman2 wrote:

But my real point is why there is no level playing feild with FF on this because it is definately the case that the PD's are getting disproportionate abuse atm compared to Fianna Fail.

I would agree with you on this point. FF are the main players in government and deserve to get the full ire of whatever the electors feel towards them. I can only think that people feel the PDs are easier prey and also the fact that they were suppose to guard against FF running riot leaves them vulnerable, when in essence FF did run riot. In a sense, its a pity they didn't take a more decisive stand against FF on certain items including Berties finances in recent weeks. Maybe people would have felt that they have a niche as a result.

darkman2

jmayo wrote:

I knew it was him that was finance minister :mad:
Non wonder biffo looked so grumpy some times snce McDowell pulling the strings from underneeth or behind.

Yes ive actually corrected my mistake;)

Zaph

Well as a member of the well educated, well paid middle class that the PDs should appeal to, I can honestly say they don't. I think most Irish people have a strong sense of social justice, and the PDs always come across as being the party of the rich, and not caring too much about the little man. Their constant bleating on about lowering the top tax rate is designed to appeal to their "natural constituency", and fails to recognise that many of that section of society would rather see the lower rate or tax lowered or the tax band widened so that more of society can benefit. They also favour privatisation, but many of their notional supporters more than likely got their fingers burned in the Eircom fiasco, while some already very wealthy individuals made a killing, and would rather not see that situation arise again. Despite these faults, I'd vote PD before I'd ever vote SF.

jmayo

darkman2 wrote:

What do you mean 'your leader'. Ive nothing to do with the PD's. Im making an observation that does not seem to have dawned on many yet.

Apologies...
If you want to distance yourself from them by all means ...

Sorry I couldn't resist about the finance minister.
Maybe it was a freudian slip?

I have to agree they are above some other parties that have been getting lot of backslaps over last few days for the fact that they have entered government.

FF are a bunch of muppets as well, so I am not been selective in calling PDs the only eejits.
All you have to do is drag Cullen (he was former PD wasn't he), Jacob, O'Dea and Roche out as examples of their incompetence.

Maybe we the Irish voters are the biggest eejits we keep voting in politicans that are liars, incompetents, cheats, tax dodgers, perjurers, drunks to name but a few vices.

Voipjunkie

darkman2 wrote:

Of course there is leftish bias in the Irish media.

Yeah of course there is :rolleyes:

The only people who could possibly think that are those so far out on the right they make the Neo cons look like pinko liberals

Look who controls the media in this country big Business the clearest example of that would be the removal of journalists from the Irish Ferries story because they were telling the truth rather than telling the story than Rothwell and his pals wanted told.

The_Minister

jmayo wrote:

It might have something to do with the mentality that everything should be privatised and competition is the answer to everything.

They don't. It's not the answer to everything, but does often work. State monopolies are not a good thing. Oh, and FYI, while privatisation of railways failed in England, it has been really successful on the Continent.

RalphCifaretto

darkman2 wrote:

Im serious......really i am. Definate left wing bias in RTE - their a state company - does that give you a clue;)

Ah that old chesnut. I must have missed the rendition of the red flag after the angelus last night:rolleyes:

The Irish media, particularly the print media, is dominated by the centre right.

mike65

Their constant bleating on about lowering the top tax rate is designed to appeal to their "natural constituency", and fails to recognise that many of that section of society would rather see the lower rate or tax lowered or the tax band widened so that more of society can benefit

Have you read the Labour parties manifesto?

Mike.

The_Minister

Can I suggest that this be moved to the Politics forum? This is a long-standing issue which has little to do with the upcoming election.

darkman2

RalphCifaretto wrote:

Ah that old chesnut. I must have missed the rendition of the red flag after the angelus last night:rolleyes:

The Irish media, particularly the print media, is dominated by the centre right.

I agree most of the print media is center or just to the right. However I can tell you with certainty that RTE are left wing. Shock horror:eek:

RalphCifaretto

In what way is RTE " left wing"?

darkman2

RalphCifaretto wrote:

In what way is RTE " left wing"?

Look at the big names within RTE - Richard Downes, Vincient Browne, Marian Finucane, Tom McGurk...........all lefties by any stretch of the imagination - but there is no way RTE are anything but left wing because their jobs depend on it!:p Anyway back on topic?

The_Minister

zaph wrote:

I think most Irish people have a strong sense of social justice, and the PDs always come across as being the party of the rich, and not caring too much about the little man. Their constant bleating on about lowering the top tax rate is designed to appeal to their "natural constituency", and fails to recognise that many of that section of society would rather see the lower rate or tax lowered or the tax band widened so that more of society can benefit.

They also want to lower the lower rate to 18%
and to ensure that a couple earning €40,000, or a single person earning €20,000, will not have to pay any tax.
It is the selective reporting of the media which means that most people only hear about the top rate of tax being cut.

enda1

Who cares about RTE!! Back on topic...

Only in this country would people criticise a minister for Enterprise Trade and Employment for a period of fantastic economic growth and prosperity.

And doing nothing in health? Have you been asleep for the last month?? She has stood up to the 'poor girls' and not given into their sensationalistic and ridiculous demands. It shows strong conviction and character to take this more difficult route coming up to elections.

Fair play I say.

mike65

In what way is RTE " left wing"?

They are left-bias which is not always the same thing. They show thier bias in the guests they choose to have on various programmes and how these guests are treated and how long those guests have to expound thier views and how often they get the chance. For example - middle-east discussion is dominated by the likes of Patrick Cockburn, Laura Marlow (sp) and of course
Robert Fisk who's collective bias is loud and clear.

Mike

darkman2

mike65 wrote:

Laura Marlow (sp) and of course
Robert Fisk who's collective bias is loud and clear.

Mike

Thought it was 'Lara Marlow'.....Is there a Laura aswell? - i think we need less lefties not more:(

gurramok

zaph wrote:

Well as a member of the well educated, well paid middle class that the PDs should appeal to, I can honestly say they don't. I think most Irish people have a strong sense of social justice, and the PDs always come across as being the party of the rich, and not caring too much about the little man. Their constant bleating on about lowering the top tax rate is designed to appeal to their "natural constituency", and fails to recognise that many of that section of society would rather see the lower rate or tax lowered or the tax band widened so that more of society can benefit.

Bang on.

I work with people on the higher tax rate and they were too scratching their heads at that tax cut from 42 to 41.
The consensus was that they did not need it, others like the 66% of the workforce earning below 34k p.a. who pay through nose for indirect taxes need it or use it to improve diabolical public services which need it also.

PD's have failed in govt for 10 years on justice and health and we all know the score here.

Avns1s

enda1 wrote:

And doing nothing in health? Have you been asleep for the last month?? She has stood up to the 'poor girls' and not given into their sensationalistic and ridiculous demands. It shows strong conviction and character to take this more difficult route coming up to elections.

As someone with an avid interest in current affairs, I can honestly say that I haven't heard Mary Harney utter one single word on the nurses dispute, various people from the HSE yes, Bertie yes, Liam Doran et al yes, but Big Mary... not a word. So may you're right she has stood up to them, she's a big girl after all but she didn't take a prominent position by real saying anything about the nurses dispute. Brave alright!:rolleyes:

A Primal Nut

Its obvious from how people are treated on the likes Prime Time that there is a left-wing bias.

Voipjunkie

darkman2 wrote:

Look at the big names within RTE - Richard Downes, Vincient Browne, Marian Finucane, Tom McGurk...........all lefties by any stretch of the imagination - but there is no way RTE are anything but left wing because their jobs depend on it!:p Anyway back on topic?

That is some stretch of your imagination your problem is that if they are not praising the PDs non stop like your used to in the Irish Times and Independent then the only possible explanation is they must be crypto socialists it can not be that they balanced or attempting to be balanced.

mike65

Lara, yes you're right.

Mike.

darkman2

Voipjunkie wrote:

That is some stretch of your imagination your problem is that if they are not praising the PDs non stop like your used to in the Irish Times and Independent then the only possible explanation is they must be crypto socialists it can not be that they balanced or attempting to be balanced.

You keep saying 'your'. I dont read the Irish times. I read the Irish Independent which is for us mere mortals.

Once again I dont support the PD's, im only making an observation that they always get hopped on for everything that goes wrong.

darkman2

They really want to get thier message across dont they -






Complete with the red background and all trying to portray Labour and the Greens as evil............I dont think they are that evil tbh but the Greens are IMO misguided.

Of course it has to be said one of the problems with the PD's is the way they attack other parties - not too fond of this method personally.

Voipjunkie

mike65 wrote:

They are left-bias which is not always the same thing. They show thier bias in the guests they choose to have on various programmes and how these guests are treated and how long those guests have to expound thier views and how often they get the chance. For example - middle-east discussion is dominated by the likes of Patrick Cockburn, Laura Marlow (sp) and of course
Robert Fisk who's collective bias is loud and clear.

Mike

I have heard Fisk and Marlow critise all sides in the Middle East not just the side that you would like them to criticise. Fisk has a perspective that sees the big picture in the Middle East stretching back over the last century not the moronic good versus evil crap espoused by the Bush and co.

The_Minister

Voipjunkie wrote:

That is some stretch of your imagination your problem is that if they are not praising the PDs non stop like your used to in the Irish Times and Independent then the only possible explanation is they must be crypto socialists it can not be that they balanced or attempting to be balanced.

The Independent HATES the PDs. The Sindo is worse. The Irish Times has a mild distaste for them, with their every columnist hating them (see list above)

enda1

Avns1s wrote:

As someone with an avid interest in current affairs, I can honestly say that I haven't heard Mary Harney utter one single word on the nurses dispute, various people from the HSE yes, Bertie yes, Liam Doran et al yes, but Big Mary... not a word. So may you're right she has stood up to them, she's a big girl after all but she didn't take a prominent position by real saying anything about the nurses dispute. Brave alright!:rolleyes:

That body was put in place to deal with these situations. Do you not think she has been involved behind closed doors? It would be very unprofessional of her to undermine them in the public eye.

The whole point of a leader is to have the people under you working to their full potential, not to glorify your actions in the public eye and take all the credit. Nurses aint pulling their weight so they need to be sorted out, so the HSE are their to act on the departments behalf basically and remedy the situation. No party leader has any sympathy for the nurses so are you saying she is wrong?

AidoCQS

The_Minister wrote:

They don't. It's not the answer to everything, but does often work. State monopolies are not a good thing. Oh, and FYI, while privatisation of railways failed in England, it has been really successful on the Continent.

It is remarkable though that the PD's who expouse the competition mantra should so fiercly resist political competition. They did everything they could to not recognise Sinn Fein's mandate, it appears that they would stoop to any length to hold onto power (FF Watchdog )

Look if they believe in Competition so much, they should be happy so when they get kicked out of the Government in a few weeks.

Voipjunkie

darkman2 wrote:

You keep saying 'your'. I dont read the Irish times. I read the Irish Independent which is for us mere mortals.

Once again I dont support the PD's, im only making an observation that they always get hopped on for everything that goes wrong.

And who writes for the Irish Independent


Kevin Myers
Ian O'Doherty
Fionnan Sheehan
Senan Moloney
Brendan Keenan
Tom Brady
Shane Ross


I don't see much left wing bias there


Meanwhile the Irish Times is like a PD fanzine from the editor down.

Voipjunkie

The_Minister wrote:

The Independent HATES the PDs. The Sindo is worse. The Irish Times has a mild distaste for them, with their every columnist hating them (see list above)

I suppose just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you.

Seriously the Independent hates the PDs are you taking the piss or what :rolleyes:

The Editor of the Irish Times is a Former TD for what party Noel Whelan sings the praises of the PDs every opportunity he gets.

Avns1s

enda1 wrote:

That body was put in place to deal with these situations. Do you not think she has been involved behind closed doors? It would be very unprofessional of her to undermine them in the public eye.

The whole point of a leader is to have the people under you working to their full potential, not to glorify your actions in the public eye and take all the credit. Nurses aint pulling their weight so they need to be sorted out, so the HSE are their to act on the departments behalf basically and remedy the situation. No party leader has any sympathy for the nurses so are you saying she is wrong?

You said she "stood up" to the nurses. Now you say she didn't, but something else did. Will you make up your mind!

And how would I (or you) know what she did behind closed doors? I'm not a member of the PD's or any other party for that matter. I do know that she has precious little in the open.

The_Minister

Avns1s wrote:

You said she "stood up" to the nurses.

She didn't give them what they wanted, despite (apparent) public support for them. Ergo, she stood up to them.

AidoCQS

The Indo is pro FF, ergo its anti-PD's the PD's genisis is in leaving FF remember

The Times vis-a-via Geraldine Kennedy is their compeditor and in bed with the PD's, to the extent you can afford to be with such a small party

Avns1s

The_Minister wrote:

She didn't give them what they wanted, despite (apparent) public support for them. Ergo, she stood up to them.

There is a comittment to reduce the nurses hours to 37.5 hours a week with a commitment to looking at how the 35 hour week will be achieved.

The claims for a pay increase will be dealt with by benchmarking. IN other words there is at least an indication that all of the demands of the nurses will be met to a greater or lesser extent.

That's a fair standing up to the nurses alright. I bet Mary is proud today.

RalphCifaretto

It is remarkable though that the PD's who expouse the competition mantra should so fiercly resist political competition. They did everything they could to not recognise Sinn Fein's mandate, it appears that they would stoop to any length to hold onto power (FF Watchdog )

If anything FF acts as PD watchdog.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Voipjunkie

AidoCQS wrote:

The Indo is pro FF, ergo its anti-PD's the PD's genisis is in leaving FF remember

Nonsense there is no difference between FF and the PDs most of FF could quite comfortably sit in the PDs Brennan,D Ahern, Cullen ( was a PD) Hanafin, etc and vice versa although McDowell might be happier in FG but then again what is the difference between FG and FF.

The PDs left FF because they did not like Haughey end of story. Haughey is dead there is no reason for the PDs to exist anymore the pretence that they would be a watchdog had been shown to be a scam.

28064212

The PDs do get a fairly hard time in the media, at least compared to what FF should get. To be honest, if you had a paranoid mindset, it's their coalition partners who have set them up for this. Two of the biggest issues in this election are health and crime, both in a shocking state for a supposedly first-world country, and both Ministerial seats were handed over by Fianna Fáil to the PDs in recent years. For a party with just 8 seats compared to FF's 78, they get an awful lot of time front and centre, and they're going to suffer for it.