If britain invaded the 26 co's

Capt'n Midnight

When they are on our side they are called Freedom Fighters, those on their side are called Terrorists. When it's unclear whose side they are on they are called Guerillas.

The British invaded many countries /colonies during WWII eg: Persia / Madagascar. They went on a total mobilisation well before Germany ( 15,000 tonnes of wallpaper in 1943 ! ) and since they were hanging people in Cyprus in the 50's they would not have respected us in a total war situitation. Lord Haw Haw was hanged. Had they invaded and taken control of the country they could have simply said the country was back in the empire and that we were all subjects and hanging was back on the agenda.

O'Leprosy

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

When they are on our side they are called Freedom Fighters, those on their side are called Terrorists. When it's unclear whose side they are on they are called Guerillas.

The British invaded many countries /colonies during WWII eg: Persia / Madagascar. They went on a total mobilisation well before Germany ( 15,000 tonnes of wallpaper in 1943 ! ) and since they were hanging people in Cyprus in the 50's they would not have respected us in a total war situitation. Lord Haw Haw was hanged. Had they invaded and taken control of the country they could have simply said the country was back in the empire and that we were all subjects and hanging was back on the agenda.

And also hardCopy's statement.As I said, the reason I brought up those contradictions was to query the whole double standards regarding the six counties. But the 'free' govt. in the south and stoops (SDLP) in the north, will put the best face on british policy as possible.

hardCopy wrote:

I'll add another cliché "The winners write the history books". Most Irish people look back at the old IRA as freedom fighters, but at the time they were seen by many Irish people as terroroists and thugs. If the British had won the War of Independence, and been responsible for the last 80 odd years of education in the country, would we or future generations still look back on the rebels of 1916 as freedom fighters?

A lot depends on what perspective you see it from and what description of events gets remembered.

Fratton Fred

O'Leprosy wrote:

What planet do you live on mate ? Yeah, just like the reception charles "the para prince" windsor got when he came to Dublin in 1995 and 5,000 who turned out on the Dublin Against Royal Tour (DART) march , and not a single Butcher's Apron waived to welcome him. Or the great reception the "Love 2/3's Ulster" crowd got last year.

yet again, you have completely missed my point and come back with more bigotted bollox. Well done.

O'Leprosy wrote:

If britain ever did invade the 26 co's - which side would you be on Fred ?

pointless question as it aint gonna happen, but I'd probably find out which side you were on, and join the other:rolleyes:

O'Leprosy wrote:

Since when did a clandestine national restitance group ever go around for a few months gathering a mandate from the poeple it wished to liberate ? 1798,1916,France between 1939 and 1945, the Native Americans, the Viet Cong etc ?

Bit like Al Qeada not gathering a mandate from all Muslims I suppose:rolleyes:

O'Leprosy wrote:

And when did the brits ever have a mandate to occupy this country,

probably just after Ireland decided they had a mandate to occupy parts of Scotland and Wales;)

O'Leprosy wrote:

Can'nt argue that one ! And wearing Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea tops etc !!!

and you call the Brits sick:D

O'Leprosy

Boring, boring,boring. Can you not do better than that .......ZZZZZZZZZZ

Fratton unionist Fred wrote:

yet again, you have completely missed my point and come back with more bigotted bollox. Well done.

pointless question as it aint gonna happen, but I'd probably find out which side you were on, and join the other:rolleyes:



Bit like Al Qeada not gathering a mandate from all Muslims I suppose:rolleyes:


probably just after Ireland decided they had a mandate to occupy parts of Scotland and Wales;)



and you call the Brits sick:D

Fratton Fred

I'm a Troll foll de roll wrote:

Boring, boring,boring. Can you not do better than that .......ZZZZZZZZZZ

nice answer. Yet another educated post from our resident antagonist.

LordSutch

darkman2 wrote:

In the 70's the IRA was actually quite capable of defeating the British army as defence chiefs over there noted that they were at all out war with a new IRA. I somehow doubt they would have wanted to fight such an organisation on an Island wide basis........

You are kidding, right? ................. defeat the British Army

If this State had been some Evil little State on the far side of the Globe & populated by dangerous Nazi like people controlled by an Evil Government, then Britain would indeed have invaded and 'Squashed' every Provo like Nazi within about three days, and who could argue with such a Powerful Army + Air Force & Navy.

This is a silly thread anyway, too many if's & but's, but one thing is for sure, if Britain, France or Germany really wanted to invade a small & dangerous State then they would & could have done so ~ if they had really wanted to . . . . .

Its a silly 'What if' notion anyway!

Zambia

Both Germany and Britain had plans to invade Ireland cause its goverment simply was not capable of any foresight to the basic fact that we live beside britain and staying sour with them for years on end is a pretty stupid ethos to hang on to. An ethos I believe holds true to this day.

And given the right set of circumstances like the bogside maybe you have the right to defend yourself. Like you have also stated if ireland was being invaded by anyone it could be seen as right and proper to defend the country by any means possible.

However this all falls short of the murdering pack of heathens the PIRA was.

Oh and the IRA defeat the british army ??? what are you smoking , in the 1970's its been speculated they could have beaten the irish army not the british. Even if you armed the entire republican populace of the north...

O'Leprosy

Zambia232 wrote:

Both Germany and Britain had plans to invade Ireland cause its goverment simply was not capable of any foresight to the basic fact that we live beside britain and staying sour with them for years on end is a pretty stupid ethos to hang on to. An ethos I believe holds true to this day.

And given the right set of circumstances like the bogside maybe you have the right to defend yourself. Like you have also stated if ireland was being invaded by anyone it could be seen as right and proper to defend the country by any means possible.

However this all falls short of the murdering pack of heathens the PIRA was.

We will only stay sour as long as they occupy part of the country, and 100% rightly so. To quote the Scottish MP George Galloway " A declaration of intent to withdraw from Northern Ireland would I feel, go at least some way to make up for the past gross injustices that britain has inflicted on Ireland".

" Like you have also stated if Ireland was being invaded by anyone it could be seen as right and proper to defend the country by any means possible. " Yeah, ever hear of the Provisional IRA.

" the murdering pack of heathens the PIRA was. " Well talk about the pot calling the kettle black, you intend to remain sour for years on end with the IRA ( and not doubt Sinn Fein as well ).

The brit/ruc " murdering pack of heathens " who gunned down civil rights marchers, nationalist children, women and men almost everyday for nearly 25 years while arming, training and directing the loyalists to shoot, bomb and butcher nationalists in the six counties and indeed Dublin and Monaghan - are ok with you and your type ofcourse.

In your view, murders carried out by the british forces "falls short" of murders carried out by the IRA ? Someone is only a 'murdering heathen' when they don't wear a brit/ruc uniform ?

Fratton Fred

O'Leprosy wrote:

The brit/ruc " murdering pack of heathens " who gunned down civil rights marchers, nationalist children, women and men almost everyday for nearly 25 years while arming, training and directing the loyalists to shoot, bomb and butcher nationalists in the six counties and indeed Dublin and Monaghan - are ok with you and your type ofcourse.
QUOTE]

here we go again. The Podge and Rodge guide to alternative history.

Jesus, when you quote George Galloway you are really on dodgy ground:D

odonnell

George Galloway is a lunatic who has a tendancy to say what needs to be said to pull himself onside with the minorities. The same man also stood in front of Saddam Hussein and told him

"I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability. And I want you to know that we are with you until victory, until victory, until Jerusalem".

Now, regardless of the justness (or lack thereof) of the war in Iraq, you surely cannot be referring to a man who is quite clearly a sly kiss-ass. Whilst I enjoyed the way he handled the American Senate, I cant help but feel this guy is the worst sort of politician...completely unadmirable and lacking integrity.

Zambia

O'Leprosy wrote:

" Like you have also stated if Ireland was being invaded by anyone it could be seen as right and proper to defend the country by any means possible. " Yeah, ever hear of the Provisional IRA.

Yes like the bombings they carried out killing women and kids and old men helped ... stop trying to defend it admit it was wrong and move on.

O'Leprosy wrote:

" the murdering pack of heathens the PIRA was. " Well talk about the pot calling the kettle black, you intend to remain sour for years on end with the IRA ( and not doubt Sinn Fein as well ).

I will defend SF right to exist as a political party and have done so in other threads.

As for staying sour at the IRA I will basically because its takes a special kind of pr1ck to plant a bomb where innocent people go about there business.

O'Leprosy wrote:

The brit/ruc " murdering pack of heathens " who gunned down civil rights marchers, nationalist children, women and men almost everyday for nearly 25 years while arming, training and directing the loyalists to shoot, bomb and butcher nationalists in the six counties and indeed Dublin and Monaghan - are ok with you and your type ofcourse.

Listen to yourself yourself the above statement is just not true. RUC offcers involved in murder where locked up same as everyone else.

If you know of serving PSNI members involved in collusion hand the suspicion over the police Ombudsman.

O'Leprosy wrote:

In your view, murders carried out by the british forces "falls short" of murders carried out by the IRA ? Someone is only a 'murdering heathen' when they don't wear a brit/ruc uniform ?

[/QUOTE]

I said no such thing if you cant find fault with my agrument do not make up assumptions and acredit them to me. Murder is murder

Ths entire thread stinks of setting a set of circumstances where the PIRA would be accepted as heroes or bona fide soldiers of Ireland.

Fact is they would have been heroes if they decided not to debase the cause they fought for with the murder of innocents...The loyalists where bad enough no need to follow there example.

jhegarty

Zambia232 wrote:

RUC offcers involved in murder where locked up same as everyone else.

I'll be laughing for hours at that one....

Zambia

Can you give me the names of ones that are not locked up for murder cause if you can ... of to the ombudsman office with you.

Not every IRA volunteer was caught not every RUC officer who colluded was caught fact of life deal with it.

LordSutch

O'Leprosy wrote:

We will only stay sour as long as they occupy part of the country, and 100% rightly so. To quote the Scottish MP George Galloway " A declaration of intent to withdraw from Northern Ireland would I feel, go at least some way to make up for the past gross injustices that britain has inflicted on Ireland".

" Like you have also stated if Ireland was being invaded by anyone it could be seen as right and proper to defend the country by any means possible. " Yeah, ever hear of the Provisional IRA.

" the murdering pack of heathens the PIRA was. " Well talk about the pot calling the kettle black, you intend to remain sour for years on end with the IRA ( and not doubt Sinn Fein as well ).

The brit/ruc " murdering pack of heathens " who gunned down civil rights marchers, nationalist children, women and men almost everyday for nearly 25 years while arming, training and directing the loyalists to shoot, bomb and butcher nationalists in the six counties and indeed Dublin and Monaghan - are ok with you and your type ofcourse.

In your view, murders carried out by the british forces "falls short" of murders carried out by the IRA ? Someone is only a 'murdering heathen' when they don't wear a brit/ruc uniform ?

Ah hem, thats really heavy, hateful & controversial stuff you write Mr O'Leprosy, so is it possible that you Sir are actually suffering from some form of Provo Leprosy that provokes you into such hateful & blind bile? Just a question Mr O'Leprosy ~ "not an accusation".

O'Leprosy

Zambia232 wrote:

Can you give me the names of ones that are not locked up for murder cause if you can ... of to the ombudsman office with you.

Not every IRA volunteer was caught not every RUC officer who colluded was caught fact of life deal with it.

Ronnis Falnagan.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8151/ronnie.html

When Flanagan ( the token Catholic to head up the RUC ) was stated by the northern ombudsaman Nuala O'Loan that he was fully aware that Mark Haddock carried out 14 murders since the IRA ceasefire in 1994 , Flanagan said " No. I don't know anything about it " and it was dropped. Flanagan is now Sir Flanagan. I'm sure Amensty Interantional can supply you with the inforamtion you want. As for your contact with ombudsamn. sure you'll get cold feet as it is only blue collar SFers who offically question Brtish 'mistakes'. It's only 'murder' when you don't wear a british uniform isn't it.

darkman2

For all those saying the IRA could never defeat the British Army - your mistaken and most probrably were not alive in the 70's. 1969 - 72 the organisation was at its peak.

It is documented in the book - 'A Secret History of the IRA' which documents the entire period the organistation had existed from the 60's - that

Internment enlarged the IRA into a six-county wide army and transformed it into a force that could now seriously challenge British rule in Northern Ireland

It goes on and explains how ruthless the organisation became:

The number of bombings rose to 200 in Sertember 1971, the first full month after internment. The number of attacks by the IRA in total for September, October, November and December 1971:

as follows:

999 in September
694 in November
864 in October
765 in December

I will continue later but I want to deal with fact here. Im interested in just how effective the IRA was in the early 70's which some here are disputing. I think the figures ive just given speak for themseves.

darkman2

For all those saying the IRA could never defeat the British Army - your mistaken and most probrably were not alive in the 70's. 1969 - 72 the organisation was at its peak.

It is documented in the book - 'A Secret History of the IRA' which documents the enite period the organistation had existed from the 60's - that

Internment enlarged the IRA into a six-county wide army and transformed it into a force that could now seriously challenge British rule in Northern Ireland

It goes on and explains how ruthless the organisation became:

The number of bombings rose to 200 in Sertember 1971, the first full month after internment. The number of attacks by the IRA in total for September, October, November and December 1971:

as follows:

999 in September
694 in November
864 in October
765 in December

I will continue later but I want to deal with fact here. Im interested in just how effective the IRA was in the early 70's which some here are disputing. I think the figures ive just given speak for themseves.


P.S sorry for double post

Capt'n Midnight

Zambia232 wrote:

I will defend SF right to exist as a political party and have done so in other threads.

As for staying sour at the IRA I will basically because its takes a special kind of pr1ck to plant a bomb where innocent people go about there business.

Not to mention the proxy bombs.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote:

O'Leprosy wrote:

The brit/ruc " murdering pack of heathens " who gunned down civil rights marchers, nationalist children, women and men almost everyday for nearly 25 years while arming, training and directing the loyalists to shoot, bomb and butcher nationalists in the six counties and indeed Dublin and Monaghan - are ok with you and your type ofcourse.


here we go again. The Podge and Rodge guide to alternative history.

Jesus, when you quote George Galloway you are really on dodgy ground:D

I beleive up to half of those killed in the troubles were unionists and british solldiers. 499 British soldiers were killed. I suppose Podge or Rodge would probably say " Only 499, pity it wasn't 499,000 "

O'Leprosy

Zambia232 wrote:

Not every IRA volunteer was caught not every RUC officer who colluded was caught fact of life deal with it.

In the whole 25 years or so, very,very few ruc members were imprisoned for collusion. Why ? Because it was the policy of the ruc/brits right up to Downing Street to collude with the loyalists.

ArthurF wrote:

Ah hem, thats really heavy, hateful & controversial stuff you write Mr O'Leprosy, so is it possible that you Sir are actually suffering from some form of Provo Leprosy that provokes you into such hateful & blind bile? Just a question Mr O'Leprosy ~ "not an accusation".

What's "hateful & blind bile" to state the bloody truth ?

O'Leprosy

If Germany invaded the Ireland during WW2, would we be terrorists to resist ?

Watched a programme on TG4 about Ireland and neutrality during WW 2 a few weeks ago and it said that the army's plans were basically to have a division in the southeast for to counter a German invasion and another near the border to counter a british invasion. Dev had leaked to the Germans that if Germany invaded he would ask britain to join us in trying to repel them, likewise he had leaked to the brits that he would request Germany to join us to fight back. The idea was that the Irish forces would try and delay/bogdown the enemy forces in the southeast or on the border long enough for help to arrive. That was the theory anyway, how effective it would have been is another story.

But if the Germans had invaded and taken over the island, the very first people who would go running to them offering their services would ofcourse have been the unionists. Isn't that right Fred ?

McArmalite wrote:

Fratton Fred wrote:

I beleive up to half of those killed in the troubles were unionists and british solldiers. 499 British soldiers were killed. I suppose Podge or Rodge would probably say " Only 499, pity it wasn't 499,000 "

brianthebard

Why are you asking questions that you already know the answer to? Why don't you look up terrorism in the dictionary and see what that means?

O'Leprosy

brianthebard wrote:

Why are you asking questions that you already know the answer to? Why don't you look up terrorism in the dictionary and see what that means?

Just having a little informal discussion.That's why they are called discussion forums.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote:

Fratton Fred wrote:

I beleive up to half of those killed in the troubles were unionists and british solldiers. 499 British soldiers were killed. I suppose Podge or Rodge would probably say " Only 499, pity it wasn't 499,000 "

glad you enjoy killing so much. I suppose the user name says it all:rolleyes:

LordSutch

If anybody wants a detailed breakdown of who killed who in the Northern Troubles then look-up this link http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/major_killings.html

mountainyman

ArthurF wrote:

If anybody wants a detailed breakdown of who killed who in the Northern Troubles then look-up this link http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/major_killings.html

That presents a false picture of the troubles. Most deaths were single.
Some war more people died in traffic accidents than in the so called conflict.

MM

O'Leprosy

mountainyman wrote:

That presents a false picture of the troubles. Most deaths were single.
Some war more people died in traffic accidents than in the so called conflict.
MM

Quite possible, not trying to undermine you but do you have the stats. to back it up. It's possible that more Americans were killed in traffic accidents during the Vietnam War than in the war itself. Or indeed, and it also goes for the Brits, more getting killed by traffic than killed in Iraq. Does that mean it's also not a war ?

Sand

Just a point Darkman, the PIRA were never capable of defeating the British Army. The British army was composed of armed, trained soldiers often quite experienced, equipped with armour, artillery, air support and a vast logistics network. The PIRA could *never* defeat the British Army in a military struggle. Never. Ever, ever, ever. Well, may...no not ever.

That is why the PIRA expended so much time on throwing nail bombs into London resteraunts, pulling protestant civillians off buses and shooting them along the side of roads, kidnapping mens families to force them to act as suicide bombers, and planting bombs to murder people shopping in towns. And not, you know, defeating the British Army.

Their only hope was the British politicians would defeat themselves and withdraw, allowing for the urban bloodbath/ethnic cleansing the psychos longed for. The PIRA was *never* capable of preventing the British from controlling Northern Ireland, in accordance with the wishes of the majority of its population.

Zambia

O'Leprosy wrote:

Ronnis Falnagan.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8151/ronnie.html

When Flanagan ( the token Catholic to head up the RUC ) was stated by the northern ombudsaman Nuala O'Loan that he was fully aware that Mark Haddock carried out 14 murders since the IRA ceasefire in 1994 , Flanagan said " No. I don't know anything about it " and it was dropped. Flanagan is now Sir Flanagan. I'm sure Amensty Interantional can supply you with the inforamtion you want. As for your contact with ombudsamn. sure you'll get cold feet as it is only blue collar SFers who offically question Brtish 'mistakes'. It's only 'murder' when you don't wear a british uniform isn't it.

I dont want any information , I have no idea what your saying here I said If you have some information on colluders you bring it to the ombudsman...

oh and even proxy bombs are planted by pricks and if you know the brits where behind that see a journalist with your scoop.

Oh and darkman I believe the History channel is showing that program at 9 this friday. The secret history of the IRA. But I still maintain there would be no way the two forces are comparable, unless you can russle up a huge amount more volunteers.

McArmalite

Sand wrote:

Just a point Darkman,.....
That is why the PIRA expended so much time on throwing nail bombs into London resteraunts, pulling protestant civillians off buses and shooting them along the side of roads, kidnapping mens families to force them to act as suicide bombers, and planting bombs to murder people shopping in towns. And not, you know, defeating the British Army.

Their only hope was the British politicians would defeat themselves and withdraw, allowing for the urban bloodbath/ethnic cleansing the psychos longed for.

So melodramatic aren't we. As Fratton Fred would say "
here we go again. The Podge and Rodge guide to alternative history." Still he didn't like my "499 British soldiers were killed. I suppose Podge or Rodge would probably say " Only 499, pity it wasn't 499,000 ":D

Sand wrote:

The PIRA was *never* capable of preventing the British from controlling Northern Ireland, in accordance with the wishes of the majority of its population.

What majority ? An artifical majority in an artifical state formed against the wishes of the real majority. Anyway, it's an artifical state that has only maybe 2 decades left to run.;)