organised religion's - means of extorting power and money.

slemons

Well, this has been at me for ages and i have to get it off my chest.

Any organised religion ive ever come across seems to me to be only a means of controlling the masses and achieving power and wealth without having to work for it (apart from a fairly flowery imagination).

I mean come on? The pope sits on his golden throne in his silk robes in the most expensive house in the world. If he actually followed his own teachings he'd sell it all and give to the poor.

Scientology - LOONIES - Xenu save us! Dont get me started on these whacko's

Muslims - Jihad, pray 5 times a day, dont eat pigs etc

Jews - you have to get half your knob cut off to get into heaven??? lol

etc etc

How can people believe all this tripe? Can anyone explain Darwins theory and also how god the creator fits it to this? Surely this alone renders all religions null and void!

How does god look like us considering we only happened to look like us because a monkey in africa decided to stand up on his 2 feet about half a million years ago. Did god look like a money before that? It must have been fair boring for him sitting above in the clouds for a few billion years waiting for us to evolve. And now that we're here he's so riveted by us that he does... nothing.

How can going to mass for half an hour a week, reciting some gobbledegook off a page make you holy?


I dont know, its all madness, madness, madness. Power and greed thats all it is.

Personally i believe in something, but i have no idea what that is. All i know is im going to treat everyone i come across as i would like them to treat me. Surely thats the way forward and not making some old boys club rich

So discuss...

Asiaprod

slemons wrote:

So discuss...

Discuss what?

slemons

the price of potatoes?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i blame the jesuits for the price of potatoes

Asiaprod

Mordeth wrote:

i blame the jesuits for the price of potatoes

Good call.

Zombrex

Organized religion works on two very simple principles

1 - Convince a person that there is some fault or problem with them

2 - Convince the person that the religion, and only the religion, can provide a solution for these faults or problems.

You can fit pretty much any religion into these two elements.

Its a very simple concept, yet if you hit a nerve in a person with what areas you target (eg, unhappiness, sex, death) it can be a very powerful influencing factor.

If a person truly believes they need the religion as a solution to the particular issue (particularly death), they will be prepared to do almost anything they believe the religion requires.

pH

Apart from some factual inaccuracies (bipedal human ancestors are a lot older than 500,000 years), I think the OP captures well a genuine feeling that many have when their religious beliefs fall away, as opposed to much of the pseudo-intellectual crap posted here which seems to have a sole purpose of showing just how clever they are.

I for one do not think that the senior members of most religions actually believe much (or indeed any) of their own teachings. These men (and they normally are men) have found a cushy way of getting status, power and wealth over in their communities for very little in return.

anyway, consider it discussed.

rockbeer

slemons wrote:

Scientology - LOONIES - Xenu save us! Dont get me started on these whacko's

Yeah, how do those whackos get away with peddling their made-up religion? Why can't they join a nice sane non-made-up religion instead, like most decent people do?

5uspect

its gas how being around much longer makes religious beliefs seem less nutty.

rockbeer

Until they pass their sell-by date. There's not too much respect for Zeus and Apollo these days. Then again the good old mother goddess is back in the charts, so it probably all just comes down to fashion.

What's funny is how the believers can't see it. And some of them even seem like reasonable people on the surface

A Pear

pH wrote:

I think the OP captures well a genuine feeling that many have when their religious beliefs fall away, as opposed to much of the pseudo-intellectual crap posted here which seems to have a sole purpose of showing just how clever they are.

Those stupid pseudo-intellectuals trying to show how clever they are!


Now where was this thread; oh yes! We were discussing how much better and smarter we are than believers!

Zillah

pH wrote:

I for one do not think that the senior members of most religions actually believe much (or indeed any) of their own teachings. These men (and they normally are men) have found a cushy way of getting status, power and wealth over in their communities for very little in return.

I always said that if I found myself in Middle Ages Europe I'd become a priest.

BrianCalgary

pH wrote:

I for one do not think that the senior members of most religions actually believe much (or indeed any) of their own teachings. These men (and they normally are men) have found a cushy way of getting status, power and wealth over in their communities for very little in return.

anyway, consider it discussed.

I disagree.:D

Actrually the price of gas is far more worrying than spuds.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

well, just one example.. if the pope truly believed that it was the duty of catholics/christians to help the poor and such, wouldn't he sell all the gold lying around the vatican, auction off all the fancy paintings he has lining his ridiculously large home and use the money to help the people of his god?

BrianCalgary

Mordeth wrote:

well, just one example.. if the pope truly believed that it was the duty of catholics/christians to help the poor and such, wouldn't he sell all the gold lying around the vatican, auction off all the fancy paintings he has lining his ridiculously large home and use the money to help the people of his god?

mordeth, I understand your point completely.

But,playing Devils advocate here; if someone has donated an expensive chalice to the church, as an example, in the name of a deceased relative to be used during the mass, can the church in all good conscience sell it?

And can this idea spread to other treasures thathave been donated in th ename of a dead relative?

Just food for thought.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

And can this idea spread to other treasures thathave been donated in th ename of a dead relative?

Just food for thought.

One does of course wonder why the religion accepts these gifts in the first place?

Personally I much prefer the idea of the common request these days that instead of buying flowers for a funeral the person donates the money to a charity, often one that helped the recently deceased person.

But then your religion does teach that your god rather likes pointless gestures of grandeur, as anyone who has killed and burnt an animal because God likes the smell will tell you

Zillah

Mordeth wrote:

well, just one example.. if the pope truly believed that it was the duty of catholics/christians to help the poor and such, wouldn't he sell all the gold lying around the vatican, auction off all the fancy paintings he has lining his ridiculously large home and use the money to help the people of his god?

Holy Relics. Can't sell them as mere trinkets.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

mordeth, I understand your point completely.

But,playing Devils advocate here; if someone has donated an expensive chalice to the church, as an example, in the name of a deceased relative to be used during the mass, can the church in all good conscience sell it?

And can this idea spread to other treasures thathave been donated in th ename of a dead relative?

Yes, and yes. What other possible answer is there?

The gift is given for the glorification of God - and what glorifies God more: golden chalices or golden deeds?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

yeah, also wouldn't 'holy relics' be idolatry?

isn't that a sin?

Zillah

Duh!! They're not idols, they're "relics".

pH

BrianCalgary wrote:

I disagree.:D

Don't you come in here and oppress me!

BrianCalgary

Scofflaw wrote:

Yes, and yes. What other possible answer is there?

The gift is given for the glorification of God - and what glorifies God more: golden chalices or golden deeds?

cordially,
Scofflaw

I agree, scofflaw. I also agree with wicknight and his point about contributions to a charity in lieu of flowers (the florists might not think it a good idea though)

Can't you see someone getting all miffed that the nice chalice they bought for the communion wine was sold to buy food for Guatemalan children? or for helping aids victims in Africa?

They could be madder'n a hornet.:eek:

Blackhorse Slim

pH wrote:

I for one do not think that the senior members of most religions actually believe much (or indeed any) of their own teachings. These men (and they normally are men) have found a cushy way of getting status, power and wealth over in their communities for very little in return.

anyway, consider it discussed.

I went to see the Pope in 1979 or whenever it was - I was a child, I had no say in the matter! But I saw this guy who was supposed to be the holiest man in the world, riding around in a Popemobile with bulletproof glass.

Think about that. The Pope. Bulletproof glass.

If that wasn't a kick in the teeth for god and christian faith I don't know what is.



EDIT: Okay, so the glass wasn't 'bulletproofed' until 1981, but you get my point

PDN

Blackhorse Slim wrote:

I went to see the Pope in 1979 or whenever it was - I was a child, I had no say in the matter! But I saw this guy who was supposed to be the holiest man in the world, riding around in a Popemobile with bulletproof glass.

Think about that. The Pope. Bulletproof glass.

If that wasn't a kick in the teeth for god and christian faith I don't know what is.



EDIT: Okay, so the glass wasn't 'bulletproofed' until 1981, but you get my point

Actually I don't get your point at all.

I'm not a Catholic, so I've no vested interest in defending the Pope (nor would I consider him to be the holiest man in the world), but why would that be a kick in the teeth for God or the faith?

Christians were getting murdered by their opponents from day one of Church history, so using bullet proof glass seems no different to me than the fact that I put on a seatbelt in my car or wear a crash helmet on my motorbike. Protection makes sense, even for a person of faith.

Blackhorse Slim

Well, I suppose this is part of the contradiction of faith. It makes no sense to me as an outsider.

Dades

I get your point blackhorse. It is a little bit amusing that God's portal on earth has to travel in a bulletproof van.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

Christians were getting murdered by their opponents from day one of Church history, so using bullet proof glass seems no different to me than the fact that I put on a seatbelt in my car or wear a crash helmet on my motorbike. Protection makes sense, even for a person of faith.

Why, since death leads to eternal happiness?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

yeha, surely the only people who have to feel any way anxious about death are atheists, agnostics and sinners... if that last one isn't a bit redunant.

joe_chicken

L. Ron Hubbard wrote:

I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is.

- to Lloyd Eshbach, in 1949; quoted by Eshbach in OVER MY SHOULDER: REFLECTIONS ON A SCIENCE FICTION ERA, Donald M. Grant Publisher. 1983

rockbeer

Wicknight wrote:

Why, since death leads to eternal happiness?

Indeed. I've often wondered why hardcore christians grieve at the death of a loved one. By their own logic they should surely be happily celebrating another soul's arrival in heaven.

Unless they aren't really so confident about it after all.

Zombrex

joe_chicken wrote:

- to Lloyd Eshbach, in 1949; quoted by Eshbach in OVER MY SHOULDER: REFLECTIONS ON A SCIENCE FICTION ERA, Donald M. Grant Publisher. 1983

He seems to have said this a good few times, to different people, at different places, during the late 40s.

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/scientology/start.a.religion.html

I don't think it is any surprise he tried to start a self-help group that turned into a religion a few years later.

He understood the power of religion to manipulate people for gain quite well.

Of course Scientologists choose to believe that this never happened.

PDN

Wicknight wrote:

Why, since death leads to eternal happiness?

Well, by that logic we would all commit suicide as soon as we got saved. Christians believe that we have been placed on this earth for a purpose, and we want to fulfill that purpose. Personally, I am quite happy to die and go to heaven anytime - but my wife wants me to hang around a bit longer.

PDN

rockbeer wrote:

Indeed. I've often wondered why hardcore christians grieve at the death of a loved one. By their own logic they should surely be happily celebrating another soul's arrival in heaven.

Unless they aren't really so confident about it after all.

At my daughter's funeral we sang loud and enthusiastic praise choruses, People clapped, danced, and celebrated her departure for heaven. Does that mean I'm not hardcore?

Have you ever seen a Salvation Army funeral? They call death a "promotion to Glory" and decorate the church building with white ribbons. Everyone wears white armbands - no black clothes allowed!

rockbeer

PDN wrote:

At my daughter's funeral we sang loud and enthusiastic praise choruses, People clapped, danced, and celebrated her departure for heaven. Does that mean I'm not hardcore?

Not at all, I think that's fantastic and I'm genuinely impressed to hear that your emotions are aligned with your beliefs. Most church funerals I've been unfortunate enough to attend have been dark and dour affairs full of tears, wailing and interminable cant about how great the person was and how unfair that they had to die...

Which in truth I've always regarded as compelling psychological evidence of doubt, not to mention for heaven being a human construct.

I mean, which is the more tenable reason for it's existence? That some people who lived a long time ago wrote it in a book? Or that it serves a real and observable psychological need in aiding the bereaved to come to terms with their loss?

PDN wrote:

Have you ever seen a Salvation Army funeral? They call death a "promotion to Glory" and decorate the church building with white ribbons. Everyone wears white armbands - no black clothes allowed!

Never had anything to do with the Sallys - except when we did Major Barbara at college, but I was too busy indulging in youthful hedonsim to pay much attention

Edit: By 'hardcore' I only meant christians who actually choose and think about their beliefs, rather than the sheep who just believe what they were told when they were children. Those I would expect to be at the mercy of their emotions at a time of grief.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

At my daughter's funeral we sang loud and enthusiastic praise choruses, People clapped, danced, and celebrated her departure for heaven. Does that mean I'm not hardcore?

Have you ever seen a Salvation Army funeral? They call death a "promotion to Glory" and decorate the church building with white ribbons. Everyone wears white armbands - no black clothes allowed!

Ah yes, but the original question was why would a Christian protect themselves from possible death?

I know suicide is a sin (it would kinda have to be, otherwise there would be no Christians!), but accidental death isn't.

One would think you guys would be lining yourself up for dynamite handlers or parachute testing jobs

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Ah yes, but the original question was why would a Christian protect themselves from possible death?

I know suicide is a sin (it would kinda have to be, otherwise there would be no Christians!), but accidental death isn't.

One would think you guys would be lining yourself up for dynamite handlers or parachute testing jobs

Then we'd miss all the fun out of debating with AA's.

I was chatting with a woman I know about this topic and she lives in real fear of death. I'm not overly bothered about it. The only bother is how it occurs.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

I'm not overly bothered about it. The only bother is how it occurs.

Still we don't see you clearing mines in Bosnia ...

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Still we don't see you clearing mines in Bosnia ...

God has called me for other tasks more suited to me.

All are not called for the highrisk jobs.

pinksoir

BrianCalgary wrote:

God has called me for other tasks more suited to me.

All are not called for the highrisk jobs.

How convenient.

Dades

pinksoir wrote:

How convenient.

Um, I don't think they recruit junior soccer coaches to clear mines anyway.
Or web developers I hope.;)

Zombrex

The Atheist wrote:

Um, I don't think they recruit junior soccer coaches to clear mines anyway.
Or web developers I hope.;)

who are "they" .... <wicknight puts on tin foil hat>

pinksoir

If by 'they' you mean 'God', then I'm sure he does.

JC 2K3

BrianCalgary wrote:

Can't you see someone getting all miffed that the nice chalice they bought for the communion wine was sold to buy food for Guatemalan children? or for helping aids victims in Africa?

They could be madder'n a hornet.:eek:

What sort of a Christian would they be???

karen3212

BrianCalgary wrote:

I agree, scofflaw. I also agree with wicknight and his point about contributions to a charity in lieu of flowers (the florists might not think it a good idea though)

Can't you see someone getting all miffed that the nice chalice they bought for the communion wine was sold to buy food for Guatemalan children? or for helping aids victims in Africa?

They could be madder'n a hornet.:eek:

Well the issues for me here are, 1}would they be encouraging conversions while they are helping those Guatemalan children and aids victims?

2, for many the collections of art and artefacts in the catholic and some other churches, is a source of wonder and awe. I mean, how many people might they lose to atheism if they began selling off items that made people in the western world feel like Gods chosen ones. Most people with money in the west don't need feeding, but we love ego boosts. Would less money be collected by the church if it didn't look so awe inspiring/so powerful?

I really wouldn't want the sale of chalices paying for missionaries that might make people who believe in other Gods feel inferior.
I would want the sale of chalices if it resulted in a fall of worshipers or less money for the church to make more conversions.
I need some data before I can answer this great question.